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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 14:15   #51
Jennifer
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
To be honest, anyone who sleeps with anyone should watch their step, especially if it's someone they only met (properly) a week ago.
truth++
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 14:27   #52
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Was a good story. Hope you do well.

As you're going to a pub, buy all the drinks and make hers extremley strong ones (double vodka + whatever) while keep your drinking light. That way she'll be too hammered to remember what the hell you were like in bed, and you can exaggerate your feats.

Oh, and couldn't you have left the key to your flat under the mat or something like that?

p.s. A very similar incident happened to me last week but I didn't handle it nearly as well, and instead of coming out with some genius line like "I want our first time to be special" I merely made some rubbish excuse and left, heh. So I completley fecked it up without even getting her number, "lol" as they say.

Still, tonight I swear I met the female London equivalent version of Deffeh. I started talking with her and doing the whole dancing too closely thing. Then the music changed (to some crap, I can't recall) and she gave me a 5 minute rant about why it was rubbish. And then a rant to why people were rubbish in the club, etc, etc. Through the brain damage this forum has given me, I instantly thought "OMG, this is the female Deffeh".

Changing the subject I asked "So, what do you do?"

"Oh, I study English at university."

"Oh, f*ck."
my kinda chick. Im glad ive had such an affect on your life <3
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 14:29   #53
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
my kinda chick. Im glad ive had such an affect on your life <3
She also said Radiohead were dull and refused to dance to "Just"

<3 you too.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 14:30   #54
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Re: Attention Whoring

Jenny what really got me annoyed was your immediate attitude that
a) alcohol is involved, it must be rape. At the end of the day they both know what alcohol does. They're adults, and short of someone spiking drinks (with either more alcohol or pills or whatever) they should accept the probable outcome of thier own actions.
b) that it was automatically the MAN doing the raping. How do you know she's not sitting at home telling her mates how she really likes him and is bloody well gonna bed him come hell or high water [obligatory dace joke]not likely I know but it's a possibility. Boom boom![/obligatory dace joke]. I know women who'd happily get a man drunk to bed him, and as you probably know a lot more women than I do are you really saying your area of society is sufficiently sheltered that you've never heard of this happening?

The whole sex+alcohol=rape brigade are a serious problem to normal people who want to go and have a good time. How are you supposed to enjoy yourself if you're going to get a bunch of people with pitchforks turning up at the door in the morning accusing you of rape when you know it was nothing of the kind?
Prejudice, my good woman, is the scourge of society.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 14:46   #55
Evergreen
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Re: Attention Whoring

Yah, Women are all for equality of opportunity but not for equality of responsibility.

They have to make sure they don't get drunk if they want equality

They have to get the huge ass spiders from the ceiling if they want equality

They should ****ing well cut the grass.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:08   #56
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
Also, do you know someone called Scott McGhee? Hes 18 or 19 i think, from dunblane
Nay, should I
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:10   #57
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Re: Attention Whoring

Should have made that clearer, it was aimed at Rankin (being from Dunblane and all)
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:19   #58
Jennifer
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen
Yah, Women are all for equality of opportunity but not for equality of responsibility.

They have to make sure they don't get drunk if they want equality

Look who's teetotal, asshole.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:21   #59
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Look who's teetotal, asshole.
Then why are you advocating for the fact that if a man shags a woman who's drunk he's responsible for everything?

I'm not arguing at you I'm arguing at your arguments. So drop the profanities next time I guess I TOUCHED A NERVE!

Surely it's as Frequently the female's fault for allowing herself to become intoxicated beyond reasonable judgement of her actions than it is for the man who believes she has consented.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:22   #60
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Look who's teetotal, asshole.
I'm sorry that every other woman isn't clever enough to follow your example.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:27   #61
Jennifer
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Jenny what really got me annoyed was your immediate attitude that
a) alcohol is involved, it must be rape. At the end of the day they both know what alcohol does. They're adults, and short of someone spiking drinks (with either more alcohol or pills or whatever) they should accept the probable outcome of thier own actions.
b) that it was automatically the MAN doing the raping. How do you know she's not sitting at home telling her mates how she really likes him and is bloody well gonna bed him come hell or high water [obligatory dace joke]not likely I know but it's a possibility. Boom boom![/obligatory dace joke]. I know women who'd happily get a man drunk to bed him, and as you probably know a lot more women than I do are you really saying your area of society is sufficiently sheltered that you've never heard of this happening?

The whole sex+alcohol=rape brigade are a serious problem to normal people who want to go and have a good time. How are you supposed to enjoy yourself if you're going to get a bunch of people with pitchforks turning up at the door in the morning accusing you of rape when you know it was nothing of the kind?
Prejudice, my good woman, is the scourge of society.
What annoyed me about YOUR attitude was that you assumed that I assumed it was the man doing the raping, and that you assumed that I was saying just because alcohol was involved it was necessarily rape. This may be the case from a legal point of view (see my second post, which was a reponse to an entirely different issue, where someone said that it doesn't matter that she's drunk, she still consented). Ask a law student if you want to know about legal technicalities. I said that what he was suggesting (ie: buying her lots of drinks to get her plastered so that she will a) sleep with him and b) not remember it) would be rape. Imho, it would be. In the context of the post I was replying to, I wasn't 'assuming' anything. What you say I was 'assuming' was actually 'a given' in the context of the post.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:28   #62
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
What annoyed me about YOUR attitude was that you assumed that I assumed it was the man doing the raping, and that you assumed that I was saying just because alcohol was involved it was necessarily rape. This may be the case from a legal point of view (see my second post, which was a reponse to an entirely different issue, where someone said that it doesn't matter that she's drunk, she still consented). Ask a law student if you want to know about legal technicalities. I said that what he was suggesting (ie: buying her lots of drinks to get her plastered so that she will a) sleep with him and b) not remember it) would be rape. Imho, it would be. In the context of the post I was replying to, I wasn't 'assuming' anything. What you say I was 'assuming' was actually 'a given' in the context of the post.
You're wrong. The arguments, including your statements, had moved away from the specific and into the general.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:30   #63
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Re: Attention Whoring

you are still coming across as someone with an axe to grind though jenny :/
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:31   #64
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Re: Attention Whoring

My original post wasn't meant 100% seriously, and I was assuming that she would sleep with him irrespective of alcohol - perhaps that's a misplaced assumption for reasons you've given in others posts. The alcohol thing had nothing to do with consent, which is why I was surprised by your response. Obviously if she doesn't want to have sex with him, he's actually in a better place since he doesn't have to worry that he's crap in bed.

Still, based on experience woman tend to be very willing to have sex once they've overlooked what a total git you are, but maybe I know the wrong sorts of people.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:32   #65
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
[rant]
Jenny for the love of god, get a grip.
How do you think that argument would make anyone who's ever REALLY been raped feel? I mean someone jumped on in a dark alley on the way home, clubbed about a bit to shut them up, and then forced?
For ****'s sake he's going out with her for the second time, and unless she's unbelievably incredibly stupid she'll know full well what the intention at the end of the night is, especially after the first time.

I'm sorry, but women like you pulling this argument (and yes, in the vast majority of cases it is women who do this) not only devalues the term as dante said, it's an insult to anyone who's been through the real horror of rape.
To me it's as bad, if not worse, as pulling the "race card".

Grow up.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:34   #66
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Re: Attention Whoring

Ok so you want to get technical.

Unless things have changed since I was last out and about in bars and clubs 12 hours or so ago, she has to accept any drinks he buys her.
As soon as she accepts the drink, so far as I am concerned that drink is then her responsibility, as is whatever she decides to do with it. Think of it as a transaction, if you will. When you buy an item from a shop, that item then becomes your property and thus your responisbility.
So back on track; If she drinks it, fair enough, but if she gets plastered (once again, assuming no sinister spiking etc) it's no more his fault than hers.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm bang alongside locking up people who "daterape" by spiking drinks. I have no problem seeing that as rape. It's when the same logic gets applied to innocent situations where nothing untoward is going on that it all gets stupid - just like now.
Remember, our species has this little ability known as free will. If she really doesn't want to get drunk, she doens't have to.
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Last edited by meglamaniac; 10 Jan 2004 at 15:40.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:39   #67
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen
Then why are you advocating for the fact that if a man shags a woman who's drunk he's responsible for everything?

I'm not arguing at you I'm arguing at your arguments. So drop the profanities next time I guess I TOUCHED A NERVE!

Surely it's as Frequently the female's fault for allowing herself to become intoxicated beyond reasonable judgement of her actions than it is for the man who believes she has consented.
Ok, let's separate my two issues:

1) What I say

If a guy sleeps with a girl who is under the influence of alcohol, and as such can't consent, he is commiting rape, imho. This is applicable to the post I initially responded to. Please go back and check it out. If you genuinely think what whoever-it -was was suggesting was 'ok' you need your morals readjusted. This was the first reason for my initial post.

2) What the law says.

What the law says is stupid. If two ppl are drunk, then why the hell should the woman be the 'victim' and the guy the 'criminal'? Whatever, it's still the law, and something you should be aware of if you don't want to get 'caught out'. This is the second reason for my initial post.

And since I say what the law says is a load of crap in the case of both ppl getting drunk, or a woman getting a guy drunk, and I believe that a woman should not sleep with a drunk guy anymore than the other way around, and if I think that two ppl being drunk is a messy issue that's almost impossible to resolve, it wouldn't be very clever for me to bitch on about how guys shouldn't take advantage of drunk women, yet women should be able to drink all they want, would it? That's hardly fair, cos men wouldn't be able to drink. Well, if you're gonna shoot your mouth off about equality and shit, I'm going to point out that I'm not a hypocrite. I don't drink.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:41   #68
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
If a guy sleeps with a girl who is under the influence of alcohol, and as such can't consent, he is commiting rape, imho. This is applicable to the post I initially responded to. Please go back and check it out. If you genuinely think what whoever-it -was was suggesting was 'ok' you need your morals readjusted. This was the first reason for my initial post.
That's a fallacy, based on the first post.

If drink was the catalyst to get her into bed in the first place, you'd be correct. But the point of the drink is to make her lose her capacity to remember, not to get her into bed.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:43   #69
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Re: Attention Whoring

Ladies and gentlemen, I do believe Mark has a point (and a very good one at that).
Well spotted, jigglypuff.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:43   #70
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
If a guy sleeps with a girl who is under the influence of alcohol, and as such can't consent
The vast majority of people under the influence of (a reasonable amount of) alcohol CAN still consent though. That's the point.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:44   #71
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
That's a fallacy, based on the first post.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:46   #72
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Ok so you want to get technical.

Unless things have changed since I was last out and about in bars and clubs 12 hours or so ago, she has to accept any drinks he buys her.
As soon as she accepts the drink, so far as I am concerned that drink is then her responsibility, as is whatever she decides to do with it. Think of it as a transaction, if you will. When you buy an item from a shop, that item then becomes your property and thus your responisbility.
So back on track; If she drinks it, fair enough, but if she gets plastered (once again, assuming no sinister spiking etc) it's no more his fault than hers.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm bang alongside locking up people who "daterape" by spiking drinks. I have no problem seeing that as rape. It's when the same logic gets applied to innocent situations where nothing untoward is going on that it all gets stupid - just like now.
Remember, our species has this little ability known as free will. If she really doesn't want to get drunk, she doens't have to.
Alcohol to an extent takes away that free will. When she accepts the drink, she is agreeing to drink something you gave her, possibly feel social pressure to buy you back a drink on another occasion, tho obviously she is not obliged to act upon this feeling, she is agreeing to get a little tipsy, or possibly very tipsy, in your presence, and is agreeing to have you holding her over a toilet while she vomits her guts out. She is not agreeing to sleep with you.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:46   #73
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Re: Attention Whoring

Jenny could open a tool shop at this rate cause it looks like she's making plenty spades to dig her hole deeper right now.

I mean it could be argued if she was stating that if sex had taken place between dace and drunk girl it would be rape then it was clearly from the standpoint of the female she was arguing from as I doubt a fully sober dace or any man for that matter would go out on a date with a women they wouldn't first of all want to shag with and secondly resist.

I'm sorry Jenny but you are getting proverbially [snicker] gangbanged [/snicker] here.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:48   #74
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Alcohol to an extent takes away that free will. When she accepts the drink, she is agreeing to drink something you gave her, possibly feel social pressure to buy you back a drink on another occasion, tho obviously she is not obliged to act upon this feeling, she is agreeing to get a little tipsy, or possibly very tipsy, in your presence, and is agreeing to have you holding her over a toilet while she vomits her guts out. She is not agreeing to sleep with you.
If she is conceding that easily to social pressure perhaps she is not of fit mental health to give consent on anything and as a result should at all times be under guardian responsibility?
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:51   #75
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen
If she is conceding that easily to social pressure perhaps she is not of fit mental health to give consent on anything and as a result should at all times be under guardian responsibility?
You're only out for a threesome
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 15:58   #76
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Re: Attention Whoring

I just listed the possible outcomes of accepting a drink. At what point did we start talking aobut her giving into social pressure?

People have offered me alcoholic drinks before. I have refused them on the grounds that I do not agree to some of the things I listed: "agreeing to get a little tipsy, or possibly very tipsy, in your presence, and is agreeing to have you holding her over a toilet while she vomits her guts out".

Also, I maintain that a girl who is too drunk to remember anything is too drunk to consent. Yes, this is an assumption, but I think not an unreasonable one. I don't think that you should be the one making the judgement on that. It's possible that she might be able to consent, but you don't know that. It's a risk that I don't think you should be taking. But to hell with my opinion. Why don't you ask her if she'd mind you deciding whether or not she's sober enough to consent?
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 16:03   #77
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergreen
I mean it could be argued if she was stating that if sex had taken place between dace and drunk girl it would be rape then it was clearly from the standpoint of the female she was arguing from as I doubt a fully sober dace or any man for that matter would go out on a date with a women they wouldn't first of all want to shag with and secondly resist.
I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here...
You're saying that the girl should know that he wants to sleep with her, and therefore shouldn't get drunk?
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 16:04   #78
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The vast majority of people under the influence of (a reasonable amount of) alcohol CAN still consent though.
What are you basing that on?
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 16:18   #79
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Re: Attention Whoring

Personal experience maybe?
I'm forced to ask Jenny, seeing as you don't drink, what're you basing your assumptions on?
Did you drink back in the deep dark past? And when I saw drink, I don't mean a glass of wine over dinner; I mean going out with the intention of becoming alcoholically inebriated to some extent.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 16:26   #80
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
...I suggest you stop shagging drunk people.
Not speaking for anyone else, but that's effectively suggesting celibacy. And even if we risk some sort of technical rape in cases where the girl is very naive, (by looking at how she feels afterwards, you suggest?), then why is that rape a bad thing? Why should we consider the interest of the girl over the interest of the boy? In real cases of rape it's obvious that there is real damage done: the emotional distress of a reasonable person. It seems much harder to argue that unreasonable emotional distress should be considered.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 16:27   #81
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
What are you basing that on?
Personal experience of the people I've met, introspection, and general thinking about stuff. Your usage of "under the influence" is very broad, as I've noted (which is my main problem).

Putting it this way : If we are saying that one cannot realistically give consent under even a moderate amount of alcohol we are essentially saying it's OK to deny freedoms to someone in that state. (This is our justification for powers given over the mentally infirm/ill, children, and the like)

There are times when this is the case. On New Years I drank a stupid amount in a short space of time and proceeded to act like a fool. In retrospect, someone would have quite justifiably forcing me to get in a cab home, or something smilar (they would have been quite justified in punching me in the face, but that's another story).

However, situations which have not reached such extremes cannot be treated in the same way. The vast majority of people I have encountered could easily be "under the influence" and still realistically consent to various things. The difference is where you go from doing things in an exaggerated fashion (being louder, more happy, or sad, or whatever) to doing things you would normally never to do (suggesting to people they try strangulation, threatening to beat people up, abusing partners of close friends, lo my New Years). It's not a clear cut obviously, which is where the judgement comes into it.

There may be people who after even a small amount of alcohol cannot realistically consent - but as I mentioned this is not isolated to alcohol. Someone I knew used to experience bizarre behavioural problems if he ate red meat - but this is not a general rule that you don't let people consent who have just eaten a steak. For such rare cases, an individuals judgement should come into it.

I'm not claiming to have had a particularly wide range of life-experiences, and usually it's the women I am with who are much more sober than I (I used to find it incredibly difficult to deal with certain social situations without being drunk, that's less true these days). I just find it irksome that according to your typology the times I've been under the influence no-woman should have kissed/whatever with me, and by doing so they've become moral monsters.

Obviously they should have avoided me as I'm a total git (as mentioned) not because I was drunk.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 16:28   #82
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Re: Attention Whoring

Hands up who else is immensely amused by the fact jenny's posting in a certain fashion in a thread entitled "Attention Whoring".



CERTAINLY NOT ME ANYWAYS!!!!!!!!1


Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
And when I saw drink, I don't mean a glass of wine over dinner; I mean going out with the intention of becoming alcoholically inebriated to some extent.

Tuesdays?
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 16:33   #83
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Tuesdays?
Any substantial period of time where I'm not going to be watching TV or looking at a computer screen seems to be spent inebriated these days.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 16:40   #84
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Re: Attention Whoring

to be quite honest, i lose my memory after any more than a couple of pints, but i would suggest that i am competent to consent to things up to the point where i actually fall violently ill from alcohol
plus jenny, if you are taking this line on alcohol, but have never been drunk, theyn you are talking shit, total complete and utter shit, i wont say 'dont knock it until you try it' or any of that bollocks, but i will say dont have a rant when you dont know what you are talking about.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 17:37   #85
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Re: Attention Whoring

You can't possibly take such a fundamentally flawed arguement seriously. Stop feeding her trolling and $thread['title']
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 19:28   #86
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
to be quite honest, i lose my memory after any more than a couple of pints, but i would suggest that i am competent to consent to things up to the point where i actually fall violently ill from alcohol
And you *remember* feeling capable to make judgements, do you?
:rolleyes:
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 19:31   #87
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Re: Attention Whoring

P.S. The effects of alcohol on men and women are very very different, so I suggest that my experiences with my female friends who have been convinced X Y or Z was a really good idea when they were pissed and then recoiled in horror when I told them the next day (because I can remember the events as I was sober) may be worth a little more than you think.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 19:41   #88
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Re: Attention Whoring

Maybe they were playing a pretence and wish society could allow them to be that personally unrestrained Jenny?

It's not like you exactly know if they are behaving as society wants them to behave when they are sober or if they actually behave like the rest of society (relevant to your area of course).
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 19:52   #89
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Re: Attention Whoring

Your argument doesn't hold water.

If they were capable of making completely rational decisions while under the influence, then no one would believe them when they blame their actions on the drink, duh.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 19:59   #90
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Re: Attention Whoring

Jenny needs a proper shagging.

More on topic : Just talk with her 'bout it Dace, best thing.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 20:06   #91
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Your argument doesn't hold water.

If they were capable of making completely rational decisions while under the influence, then no one would believe them when they blame their actions on the drink, duh.
You read me wrong, I am actually suggesting that when they react with horror/aghast to what they have done apparrently when you regail them with tales, perhaps the reaction is only in keeping with a social pretence they try to maintain due to social peer pressure.

In other words maybe they don't regret their behaviour but in fact regret the pretence they keep in your company.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 20:27   #92
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Re: Attention Whoring

Why? You're assuming that whatever I told them they nearly did I haven't done or wouldn't do? How little you know me :p
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 20:29   #93
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Re: Attention Whoring

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennifer
Why? You're assuming that whatever I told them they nearly did I haven't done or wouldn't do? How little you know me
'Done something unwise under the influence of alcohol'?

Sounds like our Jenny!
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 20:30   #94
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Re: Attention Whoring

You saying that they're pretending they didn't want to do it because they think I will judge them/look down on them/think badly of them? But in truth they actually wanted to do it? How is that different from what I was saying?
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 20:31   #95
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Re: Attention Whoring

I'm not talking about osmething that becomes 'bad' when drunk but that is perfectly acceptable while sober. I'm talking about things that might happen when you're drunk that wouldn't happen otherwise.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 20:31   #96
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Re: Attention Whoring

I'm not saying anything, just making comments on deliberate misunderstandings.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 20:32   #97
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Re: Attention Whoring

I wasn't talking to you, jackanory.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 20:35   #98
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Re: Attention Whoring

Okalydokaly, sisterino.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 20:40   #99
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Re: Attention Whoring

I am suggesting that the way they behave when drunk would seem totally acceptable to them if they were aware, however social pressure's mean that when it is related to them, they react in disgust at said behaviour or behave ashamedly but not because what they did wasn't right or natural of them.

It's quite often these silly little games women play for face that results in many a false time-wasting rape case.
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Unread 10 Jan 2004, 20:47   #100
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Re: Attention Whoring

If they don't want to do it because of social pressures, that's up to them. It just means their reasons are based on other people's opinions of them. Who are you to tell them that they aren't allowed to based their decisions on what other people think of them?

If I wanted to sleep with some married man, but decided not to because if I did people would think I was a husband-thieving slut, and then got drunk and nearly slept with him, but my best mate dragged me home at the last minute and told me next morning what I did and I went 'OMG!!!', are you saying that I was obviously capable of making the choice for myself because it's what I wanted to do when I was 'being natural of me' and not when I was responding to social pressures?
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