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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 15:43   #1
Deffeh
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Unionism in Northern Ireland

Why? I dont understand it. Can someone explain "why" to me in terms i can understand.

I need to make myself clear. Im not in any way affiliated with or a "supporter" of the IRA or Sinn Fein, or the Republican movement in general. Ireland isnt my country, Scotland is.

I'm well aware my words here dont make a lot of sense but - what im trying to say is i can see the "why" in the Republican movement - part of me can respect the passion (if not the methods) for their desired outcome - a united ireland etc - part of me can respect this "romantic dream", and it therefore "makes sense" as an ideology.

What is Unionism then? Is it purely hate filled reactionism? Wheres the passion, the desire? Does a unionist only want whatever a Republican doesnt want?
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 15:46   #2
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

But it cant always have been that, because Northern Ireland has not always been part of the UK, surely?
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 15:48   #3
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Exclamation Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Why Welsh or Scottish Nationalism? Why any political grouping, for that matter?

They're the kind of movements that spring from an apparent need to advance and defend a particular form of indentity or cause. In the case of Unionism, Protestant identity and opinions in Ulster.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 15:48   #4
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Exclamation Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Deffeh
because Northern Ireland has not always been part of the UK, surely?
Yes, it has.

At least, it has been a part of the UK since the UK was formed in the early 1800's. If that's what you mean.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 15:55   #5
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Deffeh
But it cant always have been that, because Northern Ireland has not always been part of the UK, surely?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unionists_(Ireland)
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 15:57   #6
Deffeh
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Well to rephrase, ireland hasnt always been seperated.

Welsh or Scottish Nationalism is more akin to Republicanism than Unionism surely? A desire for independance, to rule what you believe to be your land, or your island?

Im not too sure about the "happy with being part of the british isles" argument, because i've never seen a happy unionist.

If its purely the "huzzah we're protestant" thing, which is what i was trying to draw, can anyone give me a single reason why i should respect a state that still considers religion a major dividing issue?


Its just to me, the difference feels like :
Republicans are people who believe in something
Unionists are reactionary and dont want it because the republicans do.

I am of course, simplifying, and glossing over the religious part, and the IRA bombs / UDA violence etc etc stuff.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:01   #7
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

To simplify somewhat extremely : Ethno-nationalism.

They feel their rights/status are/is well defended by being part of the United Kingdom. If they were part of a United Ireland they would be a protestant minority in a Catholic ruled country. As it stands they are a dominant majority in their political territory.

Let's say there was a proposal put forward to link Scotland and Nigeria (ok, somewhat absurd but stay with me here). You'd go from being a white majority to a small white minority with a dominant black majority. The people who ultimately decided your rules/laws would be very different from you (different culture, history, political leanings, etc). Would you want that?

Last edited by Dante Hicks; 1 Aug 2005 at 16:08.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:07   #8
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Exclamation Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Well, Unionism is probably more half-hearted because it's largely a 'conservative' nationalist movement rather than a 'progressive' or 'radical' one, for wont of better terms. I don't really see how this automatically invalidates it, though.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:10   #9
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
I'm well aware my words here dont make a lot of sense but - what im trying to say is i can see the "why" in the Republican movement - part of me can respect the passion (if not the methods) for their desired outcome - a united ireland etc - part of me can respect this "romantic dream", and it therefore "makes sense" as an ideology.
You can also argue that because the majority of the people of Northern Ireland want to be part of the union rather than part of the republic, unionism "makes sense" as an ideology, as it reflects what the people want, and republicanism doesn't.

Republicanism is an arrogant pseudo-imperialist view.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:13   #10
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

why didn't the protestant/catholic schism happen on the mainland UK? tbh the whole ireland 'thing' is a little confusing to me (inclusive of the actual independence and what lead up to it in the 20th century)
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:16   #11
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Republicanism is an arrogant pseudo-imperialist view.

thats what ive always (kind of ) thought, if the ira/sinn fein/irish wanted the NI people to democratically choose which nation they wanted to be a part of id understand but saying you want a united ireland in the geographic sense is madness taking into account their own history.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:18   #12
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

But i think its the culture thing that really throws me, dante.

Its a big ask but lets put aside religion for one minute.

I consider myself scottish, because if i had to wave a flag, itd be a Saltire. I speak like most Scottish people. We're all generally more left wing than Britain as a whole. The country is a nice size, in that you have a feel for it. We have some of the most beautiful countryside in the world, great mountains, lochs. Although i enjoy "British TV", i would have to say there are things about Britain that are ENTIRELY alien to me - such as english counties - "nottinghamshire, hants, somerset" - i dont even remotely know where these places are, nor do i care. My obligation of giving a shit, knowing whats around me, stops at Berwick to be honest. Any other "knowledge" about Britain is merely a top up.

When you hear me talk, what do you think? "Hes Scottish". Of course you do. You dont hear an accent like mine and think "British" (and btw, i dont even remotely have a strong accent).

For me, Ireland is the same thing. When you hear a Northern Irishman talk, you still think "Irish". Someone says "i went to belfast for the weekend" you say "i didnt know you were off to ireland". Whats derry good for? Going and getting pished on Guiness, seeing the countryside, cheery pub music. Everything about Northern Ireland is "Irish"

When you put aside religion, there is a clear "Irish" culture. What pray tell, is "British culture", and where does Northern Ireland fit into it that the Republic of Ireland doesnt?
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:18   #13
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Exclamation Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
why didn't the protestant/catholic schism happen on the mainland UK?
Probably because Protestants mainly settled, in some numbers, in the North, and thereby became dominant within a particular region. They were therefore a Protestant community in a predominantly Catholic country, within a set geographical area, and for various historical reasons, the two never really politically intergrated with each other.

If Protestant settlement had been more balanced around Ireland as a whole, then the whole situation would likely have been much different, I imagine.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:20   #14
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Nusselt
why didn't the protestant/catholic schism happen on the mainland UK?
It happened in the 16th century.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:21   #15
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
thats what ive always (kind of ) thought, if the ira/sinn fein/irish wanted the NI people to democratically choose which nation they wanted to be a part of id understand but saying you want a united ireland in the geographic sense is madness taking into account their own history.
The point is that "Northern Ireland" is a historical invention (OK, so are all nations, but it's more obvious/recent in this case). You could draw borders around certain areas in London where Christians would be in a minority. Would it make sense to do that and then for the (Muslim for instance) majority in these areas demand their own nation, or being part of Pakistan or what-not?

The Republican argument is that Northern Ireland only had it's borders gerrymanded so the Catholics would be in a minority and a permanently oppressed one at that too.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:26   #16
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Deffeh
But i think its the culture thing that really throws me, dante.
This is ignoring history though. Culture doesn't "really" matter unless someone makes an issue of it.

To use my earlier example, let's say the Scotland-Nigeria (or Scotland-Pakistan union to use a better example) union took place. Suddenly you realise all the better jobs are going to the Pakistani's (for a number of reasons). They get better housing, better education. There is some brutality from the (now Pakistani) police force towards whites. As a reaction, the whites form their own defence groups, to counter-attack the government / Muslim groups. There's a lot of animosity basically.

Now, a proposal is made to severe the link to Pakistan and re-establish a union with Europe (or England, or whatever). Do you think the Pakistani's in Scotland would be comfortable with going from an arrangement which favours them to one that wouldn't? Where, if nothing else, they would be at the mercy of a large historically hostile majority?
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:32   #17
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

deffeh the same could be said about european culture as a whole, people seem to define culture/identity predominantly in terms of the executive they have the ability to elect, but even then i don't think theres any widescale inclusive sense of britishness, people in london genuinely don't have the first ****ing clue about life outside london.

Quote:
It happened in the 16th century.

thats true but like i said above im really interested to know why ireland became independant in the 20th century, it had problems but then all of britain did at the time after a relatively quiet amount of time they suddenenly seemed to have decided on independance. The reason im curious about the circumstances is ive always thought democracy and a free press stop these kinds of things happening*. If ireland had become independant in the 16the century id have 'understood' more.



*in the sense that problems are dealt with

Id be interested to hear the drunk irishman's take on all this, how is irish history taught in schools? what do they think of britain etc?


btw i hate to come over all noobish but after having to type quote /quote all the time ive just realised you can click the button next to the underline U in the quick responce box to insert them.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:35   #18
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Whats your position on the struggles, dante?
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:36   #19
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The Republican argument is that Northern Ireland only had it's borders gerrymanded so the Catholics would be in a minority and a permanently oppressed one at that too.

But then why fight for a united ireland? if the catholics were fighting for equality id understand, but why fight for NI to become a part of the republic?
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:39   #20
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The Republican argument is that Northern Ireland only had it's borders gerrymanded so the Catholics would be in a minority and a permanently oppressed one at that too.
I beleive I read somewhere that sometime in the next 10 years (maybe less) that the Catholic population will actually be in the majority in NI. (sorry it was a Magazine not online so no link)

The current situation will remain while ever the majority of the people of Northern Ireland wish it, the republican position is that a referendum should include for the whole of Ireland and not just the Northern bit.

However, when the Catholics do have a majority (they are breeding faster then the proddies) then we will probably see a push for a referendum in the north. Which could make for some interesting times to say the least.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:40   #21
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Nusselt
But then why fight for a united ireland? if the catholics were fighting for equality id understand, but why fight for NI to become a part of the republic?
Because historically it's been one nation? Northern Ireland was just as much of an invention as North Vietnam was (except with the added complication of ethnicity).

And "equality" is something that many in the Nationalist communities feel like they can never achieve under British / Protestant rule. But that's not the only issue, as I say.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:44   #22
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
I beleive I read somewhere that sometime in the next 10 years (maybe less) that the Catholic population will actually be in the majority in NI. (sorry it was a Magazine not online so no link)

The current situation will remain while ever the majority of the people of Northern Ireland wish it, the republican position is that a referendum should include for the whole of Ireland and not just the Northern bit.

However, when the Catholics do have a majority (they are breeding faster then the proddies) then we will probably see a push for a referendum in the north. Which could make for some interesting times to say the least.
Indeed, i was taught the same in a lecture last year, and have been half heartedly looking for a statistic to back me up without luck. Could this be why the IRA wants the Republican movement to turn to politics rather than armed combat?
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:44   #23
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Deffeh
Whats your position on the struggles, dante?
I broadly support the aims of the Republicans although realising many of their tactics have been either immoral or merely stupid. I support the armed struggle to a degree (especially the aspect of self-defence). I would be anxious about disarming if I was a Republican.

The only Northern Ireland politics I've had any direct involvement was a couple of meetings I attended in conjunction with the IRSP (who I believe are the political end of the INLA).

I see the whole situation being sorted by either :
1. The Catholics become a majority (as Judge as said will happen anyway). Look at "Proportion of Catholics" in NI today compared to 30 years ago. I can't see that trend stopping (although it'll slow a lot - birth-rates are low in most Catholic countries in Europe these days)
2. Everyone stops giving a shit and the whole place gets subsumed in some sort of "European" / EU identity/nationality.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:46   #24
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Because historically it's been one nation?
Quote:
Republicanism is an arrogant pseudo-imperialist view.
If all they want is a united ireland then imho their position is imperialist.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
I beleive I read somewhere that sometime in the next 10 years (maybe less) that the Catholic population will actually be in the majority in NI. (sorry it was a Magazine not online so no link)

The current situation will remain while ever the majority of the people of Northern Ireland wish it, the republican position is that a referendum should include for the whole of Ireland and not just the Northern bit.

However, when the Catholics do have a majority (they are breeding faster then the proddies) then we will probably see a push for a referendum in the north. Which could make for some interesting times to say the least.
Personally im skeptical that a population that feels included in any political and economic make-up (they are represented and they are fairly treated) would willingly vote to join another country. If nothing else the economy of the UK at the time of any referendum and the economy of Ireland at any referendum would play a big part in deciding.

But then i don't get why the republic was created in the first place




edit/

basically what dante said here

Quote:
Originally Posted by dante
2. Everyone stops giving a shit and the whole place gets subsumed in some sort of "European" / EU identity/nationality.

I can't imagine the nationalist talk playing well in future years, the trend in europe at least has been against that.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:47   #25
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
If all they want is a united ireland then imho their position is imperialist.
How is that imperialist? What are you defining as imperialism?

Is wanting to be part of the EU imperialist?

Were the South Vietnamese who wanted unification with North Vietnam imperialist? Or Korea today for that matter.

Were the Kosovans who ultimately want to be part of Albania imperialist?
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:49   #26
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
thats true but like i said above im really interested to know why ireland became independant in the 20th century, it had problems but then all of britain did at the time after a relatively quiet amount of time they suddenenly seemed to have decided on independance. The reason im curious about the circumstances is ive always thought democracy and a free press stop these kinds of things happening*. If ireland had become independant in the 16the century id have 'understood' more.
As I said, the major catholic schism happened in the 16th century - although it was more, to be honest, of a political schism than a religious one. The Church of England established by Henry VIII had much more in common with Catholicism than the Protestantism presented by Martin Luther et al at much the same time.

In any case, the schism occured, so that being Catholic was undesireable. As this was more of a political thing than anything else, the backwater that was Ireland was largely ignored, and kept on doing its own thing. That's not to say that there weren't problems, but there wasn't anything of the scale of the catholic purges that took place in London.

Flash forward to 1641. The Irish catholics, pissed orf about general religious things, rebelled and took back their country.

From here on in, religion arrives.

The environment in England had changed. Charles I had been decapitated, and the CoE as a political reality vanished, to be replaced by the highly religious Cromwell with an actual protestant faith.

When Cromwell retook Ireland in 1649, he destroyed the landowning class in Ireland, who had become both religious and political opponents, granting instead the land to English protestants. Ireland had stopped being a country in any significant way, and had become a colony, with no say in its politics, an occupation force, and an upper class formed solely from wealthy foreigners. The Irish had become an underclass, no longer having any sway. It wasn't until the 19th century that the Irish were even counted as citizens, and there was no significant land ownership by them until the latter part of that century.

So you see that the establishment of the Republic of Ireland in the early twentieth century wasn't some afterthought - it was the first time in which it could have taken place.

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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:51   #27
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
How is that imperialist? What are you defining as imperialism?

Is wanting to be part of the EU imperialist?

Were the Kosovans who ultimately want to be part of Albania imperialist?
Ignoring the other two, these aren't analogous to NI, as it's (We) changing to be part of (Them), not (We) absorbing (Them).
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:53   #28
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Ignoring the other two, these aren't analogous to NI, as it's (We) changing to be part of (Them), not (We) absorbing (Them).
I don't understand your distinction between (Them) and (We). Are you talking pure minority/majority? Because as I say, borders can be drawn to make all sorts of groups majority / minorities.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:54   #29
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
How is that imperialist? What are you defining as imperialism?

Is wanting to be part of the EU imperialist?

Were the South Vietnamese who wanted unification with North Vietnam imperialist? Or Korea today for that matter.

Were the Kosovans who ultimately want to be part of Albania imperialist?

If they're looking at a map and thinking 'wouldn't it be cool if leik this was all one colour hmm lets see if we can make it happen by either force of arms of by out ****ing the people who also live there but are different' then they're being imperialist.

If the people who live in a particular geographic region want to be part of or under the sovereign control of another country id have no problem with it, if on the other hand they're doing it based purely on 'the map doesn't look right' they're being imperialist.


I wouldn't have a problem with NI joining the republic, but not on grounds of a 'united ireland'
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 16:58   #30
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
If the people who live in a particular geographic region want to be part of or under the sovereign control of another country id have no problem with it, if on the other hand they're doing it based purely on 'the map doesn't look right' they're being imperialist.
Who said they're doing it because the map doesn't look right? It's about the history.

As I said in my other examples, what if Britain was partially captured by a foriegn power (say France), who managed to populate everywhere South of Watford with (say) a 51% French majority. They then split Britain into South Britain (51% French, 49% Britain) and then Northern Britain (85% British). Are the Britons who live in South Britain who yearn to be rejoined back into a United Britain "imperialist"?

That's a pretty weird definition of imperialism.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 17:03   #31
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I don't understand your distinction between (Them) and (We). Are you talking pure minority/majority? Because as I say, borders can be drawn to make all sorts of groups majority / minorities.
All the rhetoric tends to come from the Republic side of things, or at least that's the way it's presented.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 17:12   #32
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Who said they're doing it because the map doesn't look right? It's about the history.

Most of the problems in the world have started by trying to put 'right' history. If the people wanted to become part of another nation because they felt closer to it or more connected to it id understand, but bringing geography into it is just absurd to me, their problems won't be solved because everything on the map is one colour.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 17:13   #33
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
Most of the problems in the world have started by trying to put 'right' history. If the people wanted to become part of another nation because they felt closer to it or more connected to it id understand, but bringing geography into it is just absurd to me, their problems won't be solved because everything on the map is one colour.
In this context, who is bringing geography into it?
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 17:20   #34
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
In this context, who is bringing geography into it?


im not sure what you mean.


If the people of NI woke up and said 'we like the way the republic is run, we feel the way we live our life is much more compatible with the way they live their life, ireland could be located in greenland and it wouldn't matter, those people live like us, we want to live with them under a shared system of governance'

id understand, if on the other hand they said

'yeah anything for a united ireland, anything for a united ireland'

i wouldn't understand.


btw do the mainland UK parties run in NI?
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 17:30   #35
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Nusselt
If the people of NI woke up and said 'we like the way the republic is run, we feel the way we live our life is much more compatible with the way they live their life, ireland could be located in greenland and it wouldn't matter, those people live like us, we want to live with them under a shared system of governance'
That is pretty much what they are saying.

Although it's not really about people living differently, it's more an acknowledgement that people tend to be best served when they're represented/government by someone with your interests at heart(well, duh). Identity politics tend to mean that someone "like" you is tend to have similar interests.

It's tribalism. To use a simplistic and silly analogy , it doesn't matter if Fury were organised quite like Xanadu, the fact they were on different sides historically meant that being in a galaxy "of your own kind" was probably preferable.

And no, they don't - not really at least. Although Sinn Fein don't take up their seats in Parliament anyway, and UUP/DUP can be assumed to support Conservative Party line and the SDLP would support Labour bills.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 18:45   #36
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Ireland was, I believe the first thrust of Britsh imperialism outside of Britain. The British forces defeated the Irish king and cononized Ireland. As previously posted, the British payed off many of the officers with land in Ireland, throwing the Irish land owners off. The British recruited supporters to move to Ireland and take over the land and provide support for the British crown. Much of the settlers were in the northern counties. This became the primary protestant enclave.

As a subjugated people, the Irish weren't fond of this arrangement. The British were not universally kind to the Irish peasants. The British weren't very helpful in the 19th century when large numbers of Irish died off without the British government doing anything particularly helpful. This was not looked on with favor by the populace.

The resulting annimosity between catholics and protestants would seem to actually be the split between conquered and conquerors. Had the Irish gentry been left alone and then prospered under British rule, it is quite possible that all of Ireland would have remained part of the United Kingdom. Religion was a patina to lay over the causes to sanctify it at a time when people were less secular. Churches are a good place to meet and proselytize. You may have noted recent examples of this with Muslims.

Just an American view. We do have a lot of people of Catholic Irish extraction in this country and Ireland is still near and dear to many of them.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 18:54   #37
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Ireland was, I believe the first thrust of Britsh imperialism outside of Britain. The British forces defeated the Irish king and cononized Ireland. As previously posted, the British payed off many of the officers with land in Ireland, throwing the Irish land owners off. The British recruited supporters to move to Ireland and take over the land and provide support for the British crown. Much of the settlers were in the northern counties. This became the primary protestant enclave. .
You make it sound like we first entered into Ireland in the 17th century, when in fact England had controlled parts of Ireland since 1172, areas which grew over time. England was in complete control of Ireland by the time of the Irish rebellion in 1641, and it was only after Cromwell invaded in 1649 that the land was distributed (generally in payment for governmental debts).
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 23:03   #38
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Nusselt
I'd be interested to hear the drunk irishman's take on all this, how is irish history taught in schools? what do they think of britain etc?
In the catholic maintained schools, the history is taught as a majority of Irish history. this would include the famine, 1798 rebellion (United irishmen) right through to the formation of the republic which takes in the first world war (and how what are now paramilitary forces fought for the british army to try and achieve their own political aims here). then british history covered from early 1800's upto end of ww2.

In state schools, the history is mainly british history, and irish history is mainly ignored. this is fun when you are doing an A-level exam where the paper is basically in two parts to cover the differences

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nussel
btw do the mainland UK parties run in NI?
None of the main political parties form the mainland run for every seat in NI. the tories run in a small number (2-3) of parlimentary seats. Lib dems and Labour not here, though from last year ppl in NI can now join the labour party.
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 23:09   #39
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Che
None of the main political parties form the mainland run for every seat in NI. the tories run in a small number (2-3) of parlimentary seats. Lib dems and Labour not here, though from last year ppl in NI can now join the labour party.
Why could they not before?
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 23:24   #40
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

As far as I know it was against Labour party rules until last year or the year before
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Unread 1 Aug 2005, 23:49   #41
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Deffeh
What pray tell, is "British culture", and where does Northern Ireland fit into it that the Republic of Ireland doesnt?
British culture is the coailition of the cultures of the people of Great Britain

that includes scally little manic depressive drug abusing jumped up tossers obsessed with justifying their shit little life by attempting to mimic what they see as a cultural minority and then rebel against what they see as the authority figure of the majority.

so welcome aboard.
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Unread 3 Aug 2005, 20:12   #42
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Che
In the catholic maintained schools, the history is taught as a majority of Irish history. this would include the famine, 1798 rebellion (United irishmen) right through to the formation of the republic which takes in the first world war (and how what are now paramilitary forces fought for the british army to try and achieve their own political aims here). then british history covered from early 1800's upto end of ww2.

In state schools, the history is mainly british history, and irish history is mainly ignored. this is fun when you are doing an A-level exam where the paper is basically in two parts to cover the differences
Where the **** did you go to school in Ireland? The same curriculum is taught in state schools and private schools you lunatic.

Basically Irish history happened like this.

So we're ****ing along being pretty barbaric and uncivilised (but we actually created a form of writing called ogham before lots of other people!) and drunk and angry and violent. Then one day jolly old St Patrick wandered across from wales and did some funky shit involving converting all the heathens to christianity, proving once and for all that nothing good has ever come out of wales, and then he kicked out all the snakes because when you're christian and not having sex that much you need something to be angry and violent towards. Then we were all christian and flouncing along being generally confused (but we actually saved a lot of historical artifacts on behalf of the church so we weren't that shit). However then across came the vikings from scandinavia and they raped and pillaged and set up towns and ports further destroying the wonderful irish primitive state. Then across came the english or normans if you will and they raped and pillaged and built walls around dublin, keep the country folk out y'know, and then there were rebellions and violence and anger but mostly people didn't give much of a shit because god knows everyone always gets oppressed and we weren't that different. But then we became politically motivated and organised and sober and it's pretty much been dramatically downhill from there.

Oh and we built the Eiffel tower and the space shuttle. Seriously.
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Unread 3 Aug 2005, 23:34   #43
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Where the **** did you go to school in Ireland? The same curriculum is taught in state schools and private schools you lunatic.
I live in Belfast, and speaking to mates who have gone through both Catholic maintained and state schools, this is what i found. There were elements on my A-Level history paper concerning British history that I hadn't been taught, and other mates found the same on the side of irish history...
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Unread 3 Aug 2005, 23:48   #44
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Che
There were elements on my A-Level history paper concerning British history that I hadn't been taught, and other mates found the same on the side of irish history...
deviation of teaching methods within a syllabus you damnable ****ing spastic.
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Unread 4 Aug 2005, 00:07   #45
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Phang
deviation of teaching methods within a syllabus you damnable ****ing spastic.
I wouldn't call skipping whole periods of history a deviation in teaching methods...

Anyways, this place is too focused on history. The sooner people decide to look forward together the better, because every year sees more young people leave and most will probably not come back
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Unread 4 Aug 2005, 05:26   #46
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Phang
deviation of teaching methods within a syllabus you damnable ****ing spastic.
In Belfast your education (and pretty much everything else) depends very much on where you live and who your parents are. I have a Mormon friend who was never taught certain things that we had been (I am, in the loosest possible sense, a Catholic).

I'm not trying to suggest that, particularly during the latter stages of school, mine or their teachers deviated from the curriculum; but there is a lot of room to maneuver within those guidelines, and I don't accept that certain schools serving certain communities chose certain 'modules'* arbitrarily.

*may be an incorrect use of the term
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Unread 4 Aug 2005, 06:13   #47
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

since im about as closely linked to NI as someone on the other side of the planet and hence don't know, whats the catholic/protestant schism like presently? do you people live segrageted lives? is politics a taboo subject? were things in the past really that bad (ie when you were at school did you hate one another?)
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Unread 4 Aug 2005, 09:56   #48
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Che
None of the main political parties form the mainland run for every seat in NI. the tories run in a small number (2-3) of parlimentary seats. Lib dems and Labour not here, though from last year ppl in NI can now join the labour party.
Just to add to that. The SDLP sit on the government benches in the commons. If memory serves me there were 3 Tory candidates in the last election.


I can remember one of the UUP MP’s saying to the commons that on arrival of a new Labour Northern Ireland Secretary he was brought into the office room to be briefed.
They opened a map with all the constituencies of Northern Ireland. The adviser said, “The dark green are Sinn Fein, and the light green are SDLP, Socialist Democratic and Labour Party.” The secretary replied “ah right.” The adviser continues, “The UUP, Ulster Unionist Party are orange and the DUP, Democratic Unionist Party are brown.” Just as the adviser is about to roll up the map the secretary turns and asks him “So, who are the chaps in the middle in blue?”
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Unread 4 Aug 2005, 13:15   #49
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

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Originally Posted by Che
I wouldn't call skipping whole periods of history a deviation in teaching methods...

Anyways, this place is too focused on history. The sooner people decide to look forward together the better, because every year sees more young people leave and most will probably not come back
teacher get a choice (in Wales, at least) about which particular topics you study out of a set list provided by the Education Authorities. We studied WW2, Gladstone/Disraeli and Welsh history, but we could have studied different periods of history all together.
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Unread 4 Aug 2005, 15:13   #50
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Re: Unionism in Northern Ireland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
since im about as closely linked to NI as someone on the other side of the planet and hence don't know, whats the catholic/protestant schism like presently? do you people live segrageted lives? is politics a taboo subject? were things in the past really that bad (ie when you were at school did you hate one another?)
I've lived in England for the past few years, so I'm not exactly in the loop anymore, but as I hear it it's neither better nor worse than it was when I left.

The area in which I grew up, Ardoyne, is still almost completely segregated. It's what politicians refer to as an 'interface area' - where the two communities meet. Of course in reality there is little integration; the two communities are separated along a 'peace line' and only venture across it to access amenities (anyone with an interest in affairs will have heard of Holy Cross, a Catholic school in Protestant Glenbryn, while most of the day-to-day shops are in Catholic Lower Ardoyne).

People will generally mask their opinions with certain formalities when talking politics in mixed groups, so to that extent I suppose it is taboo, though you'll always get the few who rush in with their views and little thought any repurcussions. In closed circles, of course, people are more true to themselves and it is in this lack of trust, communication and interaction that the sectarianism breeds. That and if you wish to be involved with your community you have to play their game. There is a certain amount of collusion between prominent community figures and the paramilitaries (if indeed they are separate entities); this is not a cause for shame though.

At school I never hated the Protestants but I was certainly endowed with a lack of trust and respect for them and their traditions, and at times I have considered them my enemy; I don't think you have to hate somebody to consider them an enemy. Certainly groups of us used were involved with antagonising Protestant people and scuffles with other youngsters.
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