Is this cheating?

[Hurragutten]

Is it considered cheating to have one free planet and one paid planet if you never upgrade your free planet?

[Nitros]

yes, having multiple planets is against the rules

[A2]

You are allowed ONE planet in Planetarion whether it is in the free or the paid universe.

In short: Yes

[Cochese]

Seeing as the two can't interract aside from messages, aren't we being a bit pedantic?

[xtothez]

Although personally I see nothing wrong with alliance HCs signing up a free planet to use for messaging purposes. Its not like Spinner implemented the request for a application decline reason for the ingame hosting, so HCs have to either reveal their paid co-ords, rudely ignore the application, or "cheat".

[General Martok]

Originally posted by xtothez
Although personally I see nothing wrong with alliance HCs signing up a free planet to use for messaging purposes. Its not like Spinner implemented the request for a application decline reason for the ingame hosting, so HCs have to either reveal their paid co-ords, rudely ignore the application, or "cheat".

exactly. Now we can only hope they come for some explanation to the appropriate irc channels after a decline

[Razorback]

well its not the only function the great alliancehosting is missing.
The so praised defence counter and 3 fleet monitor and various other "tools" spinner and his gang announced are somewhat missing.
To me this all looks very poor and an dedicated alliancecoder from any major allinance has something better in the backhand. I wonder why they bothered to give any of this at all. Apart from beeing a major security leak and a big nuisiance it causes no good. (unless you have a 20 ppl alliance with noone able or willing to code anything upward from a basic arbiter)

[hAl]

Originally posted by Razorback
I wonder why they bothered to give any of this at all. Apart from beeing a major security leak and a big nuisiance it causes no good. (unless you have a 20 ppl alliance with noone able or willing to code anything upward from a basic arbiter)

Aliance stuff is still sucky. I like the alliance rankings though. Finally some idea of how things stand.

hAl

[xtothez]

Originally posted by Razorback
well its not the only function the great alliancehosting is missing.

• Better listing of members (pa rank, value, alphabetical)
• Way to handle large numbers of members at once (accepting ~100 members one by one is bad, mmmk?)
• Why does the game prevent cov-ops attacks on allied? One bot script and a handful of res = map of your alliance.
• No button to import your incoming to the defense screen, you have to type it in manually (even our 3rd party parser-based system is better than this)
• No status for incoming (covered, partial, too-late) or way to store related info (scans, alliance info of hostiles)
• No decent arbiter for command (is it really so hard to display nicks on gal screen rather than scroll through the memberlist for co-ords?)
• Doesn't show alliance members on universe planet rankings for HC
• No way to set public info about your alliance or contact declined applicants without revealing HC co-ords

I came up with all those faults in 5 minutes. The fact is this system just doesn't cut it. Most alliances have used far better tools for many rounds, and will continue to do so looking at this. The only thing keeping the major alliances using ingame hosting is the ETA bonus, and even then its more of a chore then advantage. It's sad when 3rd party tools vastly outstrip something built into the game itself. Talk about wasted potential.

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Cochese
Seeing as the two can't interract aside from messages, aren't we being a bit pedantic?

No.

[Cochese]

Originally posted by ParraCida
No.

Right, and exactly why?

(do try for more than a 'witty' one-liner please)

[Scoot951]

Originally posted by Cochese
Right, and exactly why?

(do try for more than a 'witty' one-liner please)

You're assuming that, once someone gets a second account, they wouldn't do anything with it to affect the game other than send messages. That's pretty naive. Or unimaginative.

[Gerbie]

Originally posted by Cochese
Right, and exactly why?

(do try for more than a 'witty' one-liner please)

I think it has something to do with:
- free accounts still add to alliance score;
- free accounts can interact with 'friends' that still are in the free universe;
- free accounts can still be used to mess up accounts of people that are about to pay and move to the payed universe;
- as only little information has been released about the game, free accounts can be used to test strategies and gain experience, thus gaining a dishonest advantage;
- it's a rule: don't make exceptions to rules unless you have good reason.

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Cochese
Right, and exactly why?

(do try for more than a 'witty' one-liner please)

I fail to see why the answer 'no' is classified as a witty one liner. You asked if we were being pedantic, you got your answer. I thought we stated the rules pretty clear but it appears they aren't.

You cannot have more than 1 account, signing up and activating more than 1 account is against the rules, so by default having 1 payed and 1 free account is against the rules. Plus, I could start 2 accounts, pay one and when I notice my freebie is going better then my payed one I simply delete the payed one and upgrade the free one. Also, free accounts are not meant to be played 'next' to your normal payed account, free accounts are supposed to be a trial period. This has nothing to do with the multihunting aspect, but it's just another reason for 'no'.

The rules are simple and clear, they have their reasons and we're not going to make rules that state you can't have 2 accounts unless you create the second account on a full moon between 2 and 3 AM GMT standing on one leg singing Bohemian Rhapsody by queen, if you get my meaning.

There, I jumped through the hoop, happy now?

[Cochese]

You're still being silly about it, but there's no use in arguing with a wall since common sense doesn't appear to be your strong suit.

[Scoot951]

Originally posted by Cochese
You're still being silly about it, but there's no use in arguing with a wall since common sense doesn't appear to be your strong suit.

C'mon, you didn't even give a starting arguement.

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Cochese
You're still being silly about it, but there's no use in arguing with a wall since common sense doesn't appear to be your strong suit.

Allowing multiple accounts to be played by one user is asking for exploiting of the game. Say someone plays 2 accounts, one free and one pay. His main account is obviously in the pay universe. One of his friends is in the free universe and needs defense. Normally, he could not have defended because his account is in the pay universe, but now he can because he has a second account in the free universe. So here we see how a multi is directly interfearing with general game play. He got an advantage that he wouldn't have had with only 1 account.

Just using it for messages alone would be enough, someone not wanting to comprimise their coordinates uses a free planet to send messages, how is that not gaining an unfair advantage?
For someone who is usually the first to point out possible exploits in game mechanics I find you quite lacking in this instance. In any case, I hope this clears things up some more.

[Cochese]

Alright Scoot, I'll give a few points and end with an example.

Originally posted by Gerbie
I think it has something to do with:
- free accounts still add to alliance score

Paid/Free alliances should be entirely seperate...there simply isn't any good reason to have them all lumped together--at the least, freebies should not contribute to the score/rank of the alliance in the paid universe. That's absolutely ridiculous; likewise, when you upgrade, you should NOT have a 72 hour penalty for "joining" an alliance in the paid universe (or re-joining the same one) since as I suggested, they are seperate. Problem solved.

- free accounts can interact with 'friends' that still are in the free universe

Most people's friends are in alliances, and have already made arrangements to pay (or have paid and moved well before ticks started).

Where that isn't the case, you don't take all your roids/resources with you (isn't there a limit on roids you can get + limits on other stuff in the free universe?) so you'd already have reached the limit just by initiating roids, and wouldn't be able to get much/any "help" from friends aside from giving them tips on gameplay. The planet is frozen after 2 weeks, so you have a very limited window in which to "help" anyone before you have to sign up another freebie. If you do, you'll be starting from scratch, while they're xx days ahead of you, and you're of no help anymore (especially if there's protection) because that's 48 hours less that the two planets could interract.

- free accounts can still be used to mess up accounts of people that are about to pay and move to the payed universe

How do you know who is about to pay/move? How can they be messed up more than a multi in the paid universe messes up someone who has already paid and moved? Limits on free planets also limit the ability a hateful person has to hurt legitimate players.

- as only little information has been released about the game, free accounts can be used to test strategies and gain experience, thus gaining a dishonest advantage

Anything that needed testing was done meticulously in the long series of public (and private) beta tests. If anything, only tweaks on existing strategies would be done with any usefulness in the freebie universe. As for gaining experience, that as well came from the beta testing...is that a dishonest advantage as well? It cuts both ways.


Here's an example for argument's sake:

I started a planet, paid, and moved into the paid universe before ticks started. Let's say I choose Cath, and then 2 weeks into the round decide I hate Cath, or I got a bad start due to one reason or another.

I want to start another planet, say Zik, and totally intend to pay for it up-front. I want to delete my planet and "start over" with a new, Zik, account...but I can't, because there isn't a "delete account" option anywhere. I also can't have a free-trial account to see if I should even bother starting over as Zik, because it's against the rules too.

Not only am I forced to either stick it out with a planet I don't want at all or give up on PA entirely, I have to "cheat" and sign up/pay for another account to start over fresh....even if I never log into the Cath planet again.
-------------------------------
So either I "cheat", or you lose a player and another $15...all because you stuck to your rules mindlessly.

We all know, having played for rounds and rounds, you can only have one Apple. Now, we can't have an Orange too? And not even a whole Orange at that.

I certainly have no interest in playing another planet...I'm playing Devil's Advocate here mainly because after ten rounds, and what should be a far more perfected system, it's still utterly ****ed.

[Scoot951]

Originally posted by Cochese
Alright Scoot, I'll give a few points and end with an example.



Paid/Free alliances should be entirely seperate...there simply isn't any good reason to have them all lumped together--at the least, freebies should not contribute to the score/rank of the alliance in the paid universe. That's absolutely ridiculous; likewise, when you upgrade, you should NOT have a 72 hour penalty for "joining" an alliance in the paid universe (or re-joining the same one) since as I suggested, they are seperate. Problem solved.

You're probably right, but since PA isn't like that it doesn't really matter.

Most people's friends are in alliances, and have already made arrangements to pay (or have paid and moved well before ticks started).

Where that isn't the case, you don't take all your roids/resources with you (isn't there a limit on roids you can get + limits on other stuff in the free universe?) so you'd already have reached the limit just by initiating roids, and wouldn't be able to get much/any "help" from friends aside from giving them tips on gameplay. The planet is frozen after 2 weeks, so you have a very limited window in which to "help" anyone before you have to sign up another freebie. If you do, you'll be starting from scratch, while they're xx days ahead of you, and you're of no help anymore (especially if there's protection) because that's 48 hours less that the two planets could interract.

I've heard 400 roids is the limit. The last time I checked (this morning) there were freebies in the top 50, so for this phase of the game at least there does seem to be some power to them.

How do you know who is about to pay/move? How can they be messed up more than a multi in the paid universe messes up someone who has already paid and moved? Limits on free planets also limit the ability a hateful person has to hurt legitimate players.

Just because you don't know they will, doesn't mean they won't. And say you hear some former member of an enemy alliance is joining back up a bit late, and cause he doesn't really care about the free universe his co-ords get out. Sign up 20 planets, and attack the **** out of him until he does get activated. Sure, it'd only work if he pays by some slow method, but there's no reason we should allow it to be legal.

Anything that needed testing was done meticulously in the long series of public (and private) beta tests. If anything, only tweaks on existing strategies would be done with any usefulness in the freebie universe. As for gaining experience, that as well came from the beta testing...is that a dishonest advantage as well? It cuts both ways.

Maybe not the best reason, but I wouldn't say everything about the new PA is known 100%, and signing up lots of freebie accounts (say if everyone in an alliance did it) could do a lot towards figuring out ship stats, perfected 72 hr plans, etc.

Here's an example for argument's sake:

I started a planet, paid, and moved into the paid universe before ticks started. Let's say I choose Cath, and then 2 weeks into the round decide I hate Cath, or I got a bad start due to one reason or another.

I want to start another planet, say Zik, and totally intend to pay for it up-front. I want to delete my planet and "start over" with a new, Zik, account...but I can't, because there isn't a "delete account" option anywhere. I also can't have a free-trial account to see if I should even bother starting over as Zik, because it's against the rules too.

Not only am I forced to either stick it out with a planet I don't want at all or give up on PA entirely, I have to "cheat" and sign up/pay for another account to start over fresh....even if I never log into the Cath planet again.
-------------------------------
So either I "cheat", or you lose a player and another $15...all because you stuck to your rules mindlessly.

We all know, having played for rounds and rounds, you can only have one Apple. Now, we can't have an Orange too? And not even a whole Orange at that.

I certainly have no interest in playing another planet...I'm playing Devil's Advocate here mainly because after ten rounds, and what should be a far more perfected system, it's still utterly ****ed.

That involves a seperate problem - lack of a delete option. Therefore the best idea would be to change that, and not the rules against multis.

[Cochese]

Originally posted by ParraCida
Allowing multiple accounts to be played by one user is asking for exploiting of the game. Say someone plays 2 accounts, one free and one pay. His main account is obviously in the pay universe. One of his friends is in the free universe and needs defense. Normally, he could not have defended because his account is in the pay universe, but now he can because he has a second account in the free universe. So here we see how a multi is directly interfearing with general game play. He got an advantage that he wouldn't have had with only 1 account

The key here is "general game play" though. The free universe isn't that; it's a free-trial, a taste of what's to come. There are no winners, no prizes awarded. It's a demo.

As such, if I choose to help my friend with a 2nd account, you've got yourself an all-but-guaranteed paying customer. Give me an incentive to convince my friend to pay; let me help him/her get started, and you'll have another $15 before the trial expires.

Just using it for messages alone would be enough, someone not wanting to comprimise their coordinates uses a free planet to send messages, how is that not gaining an unfair advantage?

I don't understand the example...can you elaborate as to why they are trying to stay hidden, and what messages they would be sending that would compromise their secrecy?

For someone who is usually the first to point out possible exploits in game mechanics I find you quite lacking in this instance. In any case, I hope this clears things up some more.

When people's rounds can be ruined (and therfore money wasted) it's one thing...but there's nothing to lose in the free universe except time.

I've pointed out the flaws in my reply/example post...but as I said there, this seems to be more a case of sloppy work and ill-conceived/implemented plans rather than a threat to the game.

You've got to be flexible, and adaptive. As much as the game Planetarion needed to change, so did it's rules in some respects.

I know there are alternatives and options...rigidly clinging to rules instead of addressing the possibilities is a narrow-minded approach at a time when the game needs thinking "outside the box".

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Cochese

How do you know who is about to pay/move? How can they be messed up more than a multi in the paid universe messes up someone who has already paid and moved? Limits on free planets also limit the ability a hateful person has to hurt legitimate players.

Does it matter if you know? If you defend against or attack a planet that is about to move to the pay universe with a second planet in the free universe the damage is already done I'd say?

It doesn't matter if it's messed up MORE or LESS than a multi in the payed universe, its 'messed' up and thats enough to not allow it. Also, limits on free planets mean nothing, because the other free planet will have the same limit, besides, I could have my entire alliance play a free account as well and gang up on them, limit gone.

[Tactitus]

Originally posted by Scoot951
That involves a seperate problem - lack of a delete option. Therefore the best idea would be to change that, and not the rules against multis.

OK, what if there were a delete option (can't believe they missed that--it was pointed out during the beta)?

In past rounds, it was perfectly legal to start a second planet as long as your first planet was marked for deletion (AND you didn't log into it, of course). This was because deletion took 72 hours (for obvious reasons). The creators wisely (imho) amended the absolute rule against multi-ing for the common sense reason of allowing someone to start a new planet without having to sit on their hands for 3 days waiting for their old planet to disappear (not to mention that they had no easy way to know for sure if/when it had been deleted except by trying to log in--which, if it hadn't, would cancel the deletion).

Absolute rules shouldn't trump common sense.

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Cochese
The key here is "general game play" though. The free universe isn't that; it's a free-trial, a taste of what's to come. There are no winners, no prizes awarded. It's a demo.

Except people don't start a new account when they go into the private universe, they use their freeby account that is upgraded. Hence the impact on final rankings has been made.

As such, if I choose to help my friend with a 2nd account, you've got yourself an all-but-guaranteed paying customer. Give me an incentive to convince my friend to pay; let me help him/her get started, and you'll have another $15 before the trial expires.

I find that arguement to be rather simplisitic, if you get defended in the trial period you will activate your account? What about the other player that has been wronged, maybe he'll get so upset that he got cheated out of his roids that he'll not buy the game. But that is all just speculation, people who get defended in the trial period don't automatically upgrade their accounts and people who get wronged in the trial period don't automatically not upgrade their accounts. Also, the basis of this arguement is to allow cheating to get extra income. On that note we could simply allow multiing and let people buy 5 planets because that would make more money for PA.

I don't understand the example...can you elaborate as to why they are trying to stay hidden, and what messages they would be sending that would compromise their secrecy?

Anything, secrecy is the biggest thing in pa at the start of any round. A recall order from the HC to an allied member perhaps, a shopping list for groceries, who knows? If the message contains something that would cause action in the paying game that normally would not have happened that should technically be enough right?

When people's rounds can be ruined (and therfore money wasted) it's one thing...but there's nothing to lose in the free universe except time.

The free universe is a starting point for the pay universe, you have everything to loose in there if you are going to pay later just as much as you would have in the pay universe.

I've pointed out the flaws in my reply/example post...but as I said there, this seems to be more a case of sloppy work and ill-conceived/implemented plans rather than a threat to the game.

You've got to be flexible, and adaptive. As much as the game Planetarion needed to change, so did it's rules in some respects.

I know there are alternatives and options...rigidly clinging to rules instead of addressing the possibilities is a narrow-minded approach at a time when the game needs thinking "outside the box".

Right, let's get this thing straight once and for all. The free universe IS connected to the pay universe. When you upgrade your account you take your free planet into the payed universe. That means if you farmed or account shared during the free period it will have had a direct impact on the final rankings of the pay universe. So any action you make with a secondary free planet that has an effect (and according to newton there will be an effect) on the free universe potentially harms the paying universe. Therefore, we do not allow people to have multiple accounts in whatever fashion. This has nothing to do with rigid thinking but everything to do with ensuring quality gameplay for the customers and making sure that when they receive their final rank it is a reflection of their planetarion skill and not their skill in adapting the rules towards their gameplay.

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Tactitus
Absolute rules shouldn't trump common sense.

They shouldn't and they don't. However in this case I feel it is only common sense that players are not allowed to make an impact (wether it is direct or indirect) on the paying universe through means of a secondary account.

[Jonas]

To have two accounts, one would have to include false information, hence it would be cheating. one should sppend alot more time on ingame alliance stuff tho.

-Jonas-

[ParraCida]

Originally posted by Jonas
To have two accounts, one would have to include false information, hence it would be cheating. one should sppend alot more time on ingame alliance stuff tho.

-Jonas-

Thats only a circumstancial problem (though a valid one in the current situation). If it were allowed to have a planet in each universe this situation would have to be altered though.

[Leshy]

You bumped this thread to say it's cool?

[JC]

Dont bump threads unless you have something relevant to say.