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Unread 23 May 2004, 16:12   #1
Ultimate Newbie
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Proposal: Micromanagement

Proposal: Micromanagement

I was talking to mist the other day, and it got me thinking about how we play this game. As it stands its just a glorified database – number of ships, their stats, roids, co-ords etc are just numbers. I was also thinking that we don't actually spend much in the way of time playing the game itself – once you've ordered more ships and checked the gal status (heh), that's it for the hour. Whilst the former (glorified database) cant be helped much, I was starting to think about how we could make the game more interesting between ticks, but not making it too important so that people don’t have to sit in front of their planet all day.

As a bit of a warning, the more I thought about this, the more I realised that the game itself would need to be changed. Thus, people who say 'but its not really Planetarion!’ and so on, I don’t particularly care at this stage. At the moment, I'm trying to bash out an idea. Besides, the PA as we know it is dying/dead already – appealing to a new audience whilst keeping the existing playerbase would be a Good Thing ™ I believe.

The idea started with separating the game into Internal and External Affairs. External affairs are how the game is currently played – interplanetary war, alliances and the like. However, Internal Affairs is where the micromanagement kicks in.

Internal Affairs:
In this section, I thought of a number of things that could be displayed/monitored:
Government:
At startup, along with a race-choice and naming the planet etc, a player would select the type of government that s/he wanted to participate in. I envisaged four types of government, with a certain bonus allocated depending on race – ie Xandathrii and Totalitarian would go together and give a certain bonus. I haven’t really thought much about the different types of Government, but I was thinking perhaps a monarchy, oligarchy, totalitarian and some other (not democracy – would you loose control of your planet if you were voted out? Should players ‘die’? – I wouldn’t have thought so.) The type of government that is selected is important, as you will see later.

Economy:
In the “real world”, the military does not receive 100% of government spending – and this spending doesn’t represent the entire economy’s output (unless you live in North Korea – heh). I was thinking that this could/should be reflected in the game.

Here, you would select a type of economy – Communist, Central or Capitalist. A totalitarian/communist planet might have an advantage as they seem to go hand in hand, and an oligarchic/capitalist planet might also receive a bonus.

I envisaged that a player could set a certain tax rate on his/her economy, which would then translate into resources to build ships or scans etc. Clearly, a low tax rate would, initially, give the player fewer resources than a high rate, but in the long term permit the economy to grow at a faster rate.

Furthermore, the type of government would also effect the manner in which your economy operates – a totalitarian communist type economy would grow slower than a oligarchic capitalist economy, but is less likely to fall into recession (and if it does then it would be a smaller recession), and a sudden reduction in population would not affect the economy as much. Ie, its more shock-proof. And vice versa.

The game decides when you fall into recession using a formula that I haven’t thought up – however the idea is that it is cyclical. Ie, the economy grows quickly, then slows down, then falls slowly, then plummets, then recovers, and grows quickly. Players can, however minimise the loss and maximise the gain by adjusting their level of taxation at certain times in the cycle – high taxation during booms and low taxation during busts, or delegate the role to a Council of Economists (this is really for those people who do not either understand and/or have the time to stuff around with their economy – think of it as an autopilot. The Council would stop disasters but not perform as well as ‘correct’ human intervention).

You can also alter your economy’s efficiency by allocating resources into ‘productive activity’. These resources would come out of your taxation revenue, and in the long term increase growth rates. Clearly a communist economy would not receive a bonus as high as a capitalistic economy, however a totalitarian government would receive a higher bonus than an oligarchic government (totalitarian government has more control over people’s activities etc).

The Role of Asteroids in this proposal is that each one contributes a certain amount to your economy. Lets say that the economy is measured in GDP (Gross Domestic Product) and each roid gives you 1000. Your economy starts off at a number (lets say 10 000 units), and can grow on its own from anywhere from –5% to +10%. Asteroids would then contribute 1000 units of GDP to your economy. With a tax rate at 20%, your resource income for Tick 1 (without any roids) would be 2000 credits (10000*0.2), which you can then distribute to ships, scans, productivity, police etc. Note that for this to work Metal, Crystal and Eonium will have to be merged into one unit otherwise it would further complicate matters. This one unit could simply be called Dollars/Euros (though any name for money would be ok). I'm not very sure about this section of the proposal, I think it needs a lot more work – specifically the value of asteroids decreasing as time passes is a bad thing.

Subsection: Population
This section I am also not sure about. Your planet could display a population size that would have no impact on scoring etc, but rather is solely for your economy. Population could be another link between internal and external affairs (along with Taxation) insofar as Enemy Ships could kill people (read: Structure Killers) – these people would then not be able to work in the economy and so GDP would fall. Although I'm not sure how much each person is worth (it would be tiny), a Communist economy would place less value on a person than a capitalist economy. Population could also determine when Micromanagement would actually kick in (read the Post Script). Thoughts?

Internal Security:
This section would micromanage domestic security. In all societies the people can protest/demonstrate/revolt etc – and the resources that you put into security would limit the damage caused by a general strike or by a revolt etc. The idea behind this was that top 100 ish planets would suffer more domestic problems (storyline: their populace is arrogant or whatever), and thus players would have to worry more and more about the situation on the home front whilst also fighting their normal wars. This is designed to be a limiting factor – resources into security would not be used for building ships and the like, thus keeping the top planets from growing exponentially.

What I would like to see with this feature is that top planets would, because of their dominance, become unstable internally. Then, external enemies could take advantage of this and attack this top player. Depending on the system of government and some random factor, the people (after the attack) could either unite and become stronger or die (meaning reduced total output and/or become less efficient, making the economy grow less and thus less taxes for ships etc). This last bit ties in with the type of government – a communist state would have more people dying but it would matter less than the other forms of government (yes, I am callous ).

As with the Economy, player intervention at this level would either reduce the occurrence and/or reduce the severity of damage caused by these uprisings. However, as mentioned before, allowances have to be made for those players who cannot micromanage – and so this section’s autopilot could be a Police Commissioner. I don’t actually know how a player could intervene in this section, like maybe hunting down ringleaders only or shooting people who are revolting on sight? (Edit: lol - if you shot everyone who was revolting then it would improve the gene pool! ) A pull down menu of actions or something? Ideas anyone?

Conclusion
So, in conclusion, a player would select their type of government, type of economy, set taxation rates, allocate resources to efficient behaviour and allocate resources to internal security. So, whilst I’ve done my best to make it sound complicated, it isn’t really all that hard – and it has the added advantage of significantly increasing the importance of strategy into PA. Strategy including; “Do I set a really high tax rate and benefit now, or set a low tax rate and let my economy grow faster?” Or, “Should I throw resources at productive behaviour or build more ships?” Or, “My planet is in revolt – how should I end it so I loose the least?” and so on.

So, whinging about it not being PA aside, what do you think?

PS: mist mentioned that PA is hard enough to learn already, without having to describe these changes to them as well. He suggested that, after a certain point was reached, that these features then became available. I agree. I was thinking that once a planet approached a certain level – say half a million Population – they could receive a message from the Intergalactic Council mentioning something along the lines of; “We have noticed that your planet will soon develop to a size where micromanaging your planet will become necessary. We suggest that you read the following material to give you a basic understanding of micromanagement. Enjoy.” After two days or so, the Internal Affairs listed above become available.

Looks like Tactitus might get his much vaunted Sim Planet after all!
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Last edited by Ultimate Newbie; 23 May 2004 at 16:18.
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Unread 23 May 2004, 16:49   #2
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Re: Proposal: Micromanagement

I've only skimmed read this atm but many of the ideas are ones I have raised in the past and one of the problems raised by people over the ideas was that many people felt that it actually made the game harder to get into, not because it was really any harder as the ideas are pretty simple and ones most game players are familar with but simply because of the additional time such Micromanagement takes.

If we look at Championship manager which is one of the most successful PC's games theres been (and like PA its a game which is at its core a glorified database), its success has come down to the way it can have such a wide appeal, if you want a simple management game where you can ignore all the finer details like training ect you have it BUT if you have the time and desire you can plunge into the micromanagement of the club. It achieves this mix by simply allowing you to assign your assistant to take care of areas your not bothered about . The computer then handles these aspects and while you may lose that extra bit of control and the choices the game makes for you may not be best it is good enough for you to do fine without bothering with unwanted issues.

Now if micromanagement in PA could be done like this it would be great, if you dont want to handle a part of the game you would just switch your depuity ruler onto these tasks and the game would handle them but obviously at a level that is potentially lower than you could achieve if you were doing it.

This then gives those who just want to play traditional PA the game they want but allowing people who enjoy micromanagement to do this.

I would also say I disagree with the idea of having new accounts on auto mode at first, id personally rather the quest system was put in place again to act like tthe training missions that many games have to get you used to game and the actiosn you are asked to carry out. People simply respond to training by doing than they do from reading about it
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Unread 23 May 2004, 18:41   #3
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Exclamation Re: Proposal: Micromanagement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Looks like Tactitus might get his much vaunted Sim Planet after all!
I hope that was in jest as I've never been a big proponent of Sim Planet.

That aside, I think it could be doable. I think balance would be an issue; for example if you're going to go with the different economies then you have make communism a viable alterantive to capitalism (not to be confused with Reality™ )

In any sort of economic game then I think there would also have to be trade routes. Have trading ships that you can build and send to other planets (add some trading missions to the current attack/defend missions)--plus some way to attack said missions. Trade missions would be a modest win-win for both planets, stealing/piracy would be a win/lose, etc.

Finally, what kind of scale are you taking about? What's the difference, in resource income, between an optimally micromanaged planet and one on autopilot? Unless it's substantial, it'll end up like the minister/gc bonuses--nice to have but doesn't really effect the outcome all that much (which is maybe what you want--I dunno). To make the economic side more important, I'd de-emphasize combat somewhat. Make roids unstealable but instead, steal resources (and cargo from trade ships).
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Unread 23 May 2004, 23:04   #4
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Re: Proposal: Micromanagement

i was thinking somewhere in the "nice but not essential" type field of thought. that way if people want to keep playing as they do atm they can, for those that want to put a bit of time in they can also

while you say the minister bonuses were 'just nice', early in the round being able to initiate 10% extra roids could easilly snowball in to a large difference later on.

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Unread 24 May 2004, 08:16   #5
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Re: Proposal: Micromanagement

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Now if micromanagement in PA could be done like this it would be great, if you dont want to handle a part of the game you would just switch your depuity ruler onto these tasks and the game would handle them but obviously at a level that is potentially lower than you could achieve if you were doing it.
That was kinda what i was aluding to with the Autopilots (Council of Economists // Police Commissioner), though i dont think you should automatically choose your system of government or economy - though it might be nice for those people who really DO want to go 'random' .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
In any sort of economic game then I think there would also have to be trade routes. Have trading ships that you can build and send to other planets (add some trading missions to the current attack/defend missions)--plus some way to attack said missions. Trade missions would be a modest win-win for both planets, stealing/piracy would be a win/lose, etc.
I had actually thought of this, but for some reason i forgot to include it in when i was typing - perhaps it could be for Micromanagement Mk2 - so people arent overwhelmed at the beginning.

OTOH it would be nice to trade/steal in addition to capturing roids - though imo it would have to be done in a way where you could/should specialise in one type of attack or another, with associated advantages and disadvantages for choosing either. This would provide alternative pathways to success which imo this game would benefit from.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Finally, what kind of scale are you taking about? What's the difference, in resource income, between an optimally micromanaged planet and one on autopilot?
Initially, it wouldnt be that large of a difference (actually at the beginning it would be bugger all). However, the system that i proposed, any change would be compounded again and again - so over a long round the difference would be substantial. It would be a way of permiting those 'dedicated' players to be rewarded. Dont ask me for numbers, because it really and utterly depends on what type of economy we select .

BTW - i just had a thought about my Roid problem. Rather than a captured asteroid producing a fixed number of resources for your economy (and thus, as your economy grows roids become less important leading to stagnation), a captured roid would add a certain %age to your income (like 1%?). So, as the round progresses, roids are worth more and more, providing more incentive to attack.

Though this %age would have to be though out carefully - at 1%, capturing 100 roids would double your economy . Also, what happens if you lost 200 roids? heh. I see some potential for abuse as well, as players farm off each other - even without a net gain in the number of roids, each one would be contributing more. Any mathematical genius have a solution to that?

heh.

Edit: Damn, i cant speel.
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Unread 24 May 2004, 15:11   #6
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Re: Proposal: Micromanagement

ill just buy the Sims and rule over them hehe
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Unread 24 May 2004, 18:21   #7
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Exclamation Re: Proposal: Micromanagement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
BTW - i just had a thought about my Roid problem. Rather than a captured asteroid producing a fixed number of resources for your economy (and thus, as your economy grows roids become less important leading to stagnation), a captured roid would add a certain %age to your income (like 1%?). So, as the round progresses, roids are worth more and more, providing more incentive to attack.
Erm, can you say exponential growth?
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Unread 26 May 2004, 01:39   #8
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Re: Proposal: Micromanagement

Isn't this just a glorified Engineering page?

Choosing, say, your totalitarian government, surely that would be the same as sticking mining onto priority 1. The downside of this is that another area, such as research, loses out. It isn't much different really... except you've made it sound a lot more complicated than it needs to be.
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Unread 26 May 2004, 02:23   #9
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Re: Proposal: Micromanagement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Erm, can you say exponential growth?
No - it takes a paragraph

Yes, i see the problem now - its was kinda spur of the moment idea.
Got any better ideas Tac? I thought you were a mathematician or at least good enough to be. :\

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Isn't this just a glorified Engineering page?

Choosing, say, your totalitarian government, surely that would be the same as sticking mining onto priority 1. The downside of this is that another area, such as research, loses out.
Well, yes but no. Its similar to engineers insofar as you need to select your type of government, type of economy and the like - however it differs in the areas of their effects. All the changes that the micromanagment would impose are based on adjusting/affecting your planet's economy. With the exception of Mining, Engineering priorities primarily effect the "External" areas of the game, like production times etc.

I admit, the concept is similar - being able to tweak certain areas of your planet - but that's what Micromanagement is. It could be said that Engineering is just a subsection of Micromanagement . Besides - Engineering has proved to be the most popular feature of the post R10 game - expanding on this concept shouldnt be a bad thing?

Quote:
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It isn't much different really... except you've made it sound a lot more complicated than it needs to be.
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Unread 26 May 2004, 02:29   #10
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Re: Proposal: Micromanagement

Nice idea ..... but part of the reason i had come back to this game (and brought three people with me for the last round maybe a few more this round too) Is because i could walk away go out to dinner sleep that sort of thing and still have a chance to be in contention for a top slot .... Under this idea with being able to turn over the micro management to the computer processes would probably not generate as good as you yourself could get, what will happen is at the end of the round you'll find the "top" players were those with little to no social/work life able to be on doing constant adjustments. Yes I know now you have the game operating the same way he who can log in most often can make real time reactions to that which is happening and therefore has an edge on the competition ..... But with a micromangemnt setting the gulf between those who can and those who can't would be simply insurmountable.

K enough of the Neighsaying. Because i don't want the impression i think it's a bad idea .... Cause i think it's a really good idea.... would deffinately make the game more engaging. But why not limit the idea to a government choice with bonuses and penalities (example off the hip A "communist style" may be able to build ships cheaper (community effort/governemnt quotas) but they take like 3 ticks longer (why bust yer tail when the end of the week you get same pay for 30 hours of work as the guy who worked 60 hours)) But all in all the idea IMO is fantastic (better then toilets even)
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Unread 26 May 2004, 02:38   #11
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Re: Proposal: Micromanagement

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Originally Posted by Dakaka
Under this idea with being able to turn over the micro management to the computer processes would probably not generate as good as you yourself could get, what will happen is at the end of the round you'll find the "top" players were those with little to no social/work life able to be on doing constant adjustments.
True, but remember people are prone to human error. If you are managing your planet yourself, and you bugger up, then you are going to be in a worse position than you would have been had you selected the computer to d oit.

Furthermore, it was my intention that micromanagement wouldnt make a large enough difference to make sitting infront of the computer the whole day useful, rather two to four logins a day to adjust tax rates would be sufficient to be more efficient - though clearly changing the tax rates every tick would be better as any growth is compounded. The computer might adjust it once a day, for example.

I think that the taxation rates will make the largest difference only to the largest planets - most 'casual' players wouldnt need to worry, and those larger players need those resources for other headaches, such as revolts etc .

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(better then toilets even)
!! Is that possible?!?!
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Unread 26 May 2004, 03:20   #12
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Re: Proposal: Micromanagement

hmmm ... i fail to see how yer gonna make it a "small" difference in the end scoring while still allowing the ability to effect the score at all. If it's there, and it will have little effect on the outcome of the game, then it seems like a alot of coding work for a feature that most people will ignore. But hey what do i know? I'm not a programmer of a math genius (math whizz yess genius no)
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Unread 30 May 2004, 06:56   #13
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Re: Proposal: Micromanagement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dakaka
hmmm ... i fail to see how yer gonna make it a "small" difference in the end scoring while still allowing the ability to effect the score at all. If it's there, and it will have little effect on the outcome of the game, then it seems like a alot of coding work for a feature that most people will ignore. But hey what do i know? I'm not a programmer of a math genius (math whizz yess genius no)
Youre right - mine along with about three quarters of all the proposals that are presented in this forum will either change too much or not enough (and thus are ignored or considered excess baggage).

I'm hoping that with Micromanagement there is some middle ground to be had between those two extremes - and with a certain amount of balancing (everything has to be balanced - ship stats are a prime example) - we should find a workable solution.
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 09:01   #14
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Re: Proposal: Micromanagement

sounds like civilization or alpha centauri
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 09:31   #15
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Re: Proposal: Micromanagement

Is that such a bad thing?
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Unread 3 Jun 2004, 16:15   #16
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Re: Proposal: Micromanagement

That would be awesome to the point of 'pee your pants'.
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