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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 21:11   #51
Aedolaws
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Re: Official Denial Statement

So you say. I vehemently disagree!

HCs have a duty to prevent cheating, to report it once discovered, and to fix it if it is within their ranks. (And thats why I based my argument on this premise... and don't reply there is no EULA rule stating this, if you are in any way related to the Anglican worldvision, you may be aware of the concept "always evolving common law.")

The alternative is a "don't ask/don't tell culture" that I believe is undesirable.

(But fine, at least you have a solid ground to rest your position).
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 21:18   #52
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Re: Official Denial Statement

As you may have guessed, I prefer an "don't ask/don't tell" culture (despite the fact that I'm not advocating this particular extreme) over a "watch thy neighbours and parents" culture (which is what you are arguing).

Also, I would take this time to say that your point is as logically sound as mine, and though I disagree with two of the basic premises, I was wrong in calling you an idiot. My apologies.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 21:26   #53
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Mz, don't make the mistake of thinking I agree with you/ghosteh/disc/whomever. I find most of you to be behaving like complete morons in this thread, far more than Aedolaws who's simply being idealistic. Disagree all you want with him, but atleast argue your case properly(some of you have been better, some of you have been worse, I cba to check up who wrote what so please, do not start quoting yourselves to prove your infinite superiority...)
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 22:22   #54
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Personally I think Aedolaws is talking a load of crap, firstly about planetarion and secondly about law.

He suggests that the whole of Denial should be punished and that players have a duty to report each other for cheating, even if its their alliance mates. This is purely a question of morality whether you choose to report someone for cheating. The only crime in the UK at least where you are under some kind of duty to report it is terrorism simply because not reporting it puts large numbers of the general public at serious dangers and being an online game, we are miles away from any such situation. I have always been very much against applying criminal law principles to an online game because quite simply, they aren't relevant, they are just people's popular conception of 'justice'. If a MH/mod or whatever genuinely believes it's more likely than not that someone is cheating, we should use the 50/50 burden of proof that is adequate in the civil code, simply because it's reasonably fair and lets the game run reasonably smoothly.

We should treat an alliance broadly like we treat a company where its employees (peons) and directors (HC) are also its shareholders. The only people responsible for institutionally bad conduct inside an alliance should be the HC as the collective - they are collectively responsible for institutional conduct. Those directly responsible for cheating should be deleted because after all they were cheating themselves. However, it should stop none of these parties from signing up again and working within Denial to rebuild Denial legitimately. It would be unfair on the shareholders to shut down the company and destroy their investment (which in this particular round is time spent playing) permanently.

Whatever Aedolaws says, the punishment I have proposed is certainly a punishment and a strong message to all cheaters, because it will certainly damage Denial and end their round in terms of competing for the top prizes. However, they will have the opportunity to redeem themselves and play once again in planetarion to their full capacity. It's up to them to restore the tarnished reputation to their alliance/company and make it a successful institution despite their misdemeanours.

For the record, boasting about the fact you are a law student is just plain unprofessional. You can certainly argue well on this forum and in fact anywhere without saying such, simply because one would expect you to have the skill to do so in any case. To use it to assert yourself and use it as some sort of weapon when people call you out for shit arguments is well, shit in the extreme from my point of view. Quite I honestly i couldn't care what anyone is - as the moderator its just nice to see good arguments, whoever wrote them - even from people I really can't stand from a personal point of view.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 22:49   #55
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Lokken, ok, I hear you. Now, the law student thing was brought up by someone else, I merely defended myself. I even stressed that they shouldn't bring this up, that they should focus on the arguments, not the person behind it. Nonetheless, our Code of Ethics does not say anywhere we should not boast our achievements, let alone forbid it. Anyways, I really don't wish to get into this.

Re your corporate analogy, I like it. I may even agree with restricting punishment to the HC team, although I would extend that to all the officers as well.

And if so, tell me, what company would go on without a BoD and executive officers? Would the shareholders be better off selling out and investing elsewhere or would they be better off keeping a blind venture spiralling downwards? Pride? Pride in what?

Anyways, at this point I have already made my point. And I wish to spend no more time in this matter.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 22:53   #56
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Re: Official Denial Statement

lokken; you might want to read back, Aedolaws did not bring up being a law student himself, it was others who brought it up. Also, if a company leadership is found to have defrauded the company or broken the law for their personal gain, you are correct, they alone are held accountable. But if the laws broken serve either wholly or partially to benefit the company then the company may also be penalized. I'd also like to attract your attention to laws on purgery and being a accessory to a crime, which although in neither case the person himself commits a crime, they are held accountable for their knowledge of said crimes.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 22:54   #57
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws
Lokken, ok, I hear you. Now, the law student thing was brought up by someone else, I merely defended myself. I even stressed that they shouldn't bring this up, that they should focus on the arguments, not the person behind it. Nonetheless, our Code of Ethics does not say anywhere we should not boast our achievements, let alone forbid it. Anyways, I really don't wish to get into this.

Re your corporate analogy, I like it. I may even agree with restricting punishment to the HC team, although I would extend that to all the officers as well.

And if so, tell me, what company would go on without a BoD and executive officers? Would the shareholders be better off selling out and investing elsewhere or would they be better off keeping a blind venture spiralling downwards? Pride? Pride in what?

Anyways, at this point I have already made my point. And I wish to spend no more time in this matter.
again, why ban officers, thats 10+ people who know nothing and have not done anything wrong? can you please just drop it now
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 23:07   #58
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws
Lokken, ok, I hear you. Now, the law student thing was brought up by someone else, I merely defended myself. I even stressed that they shouldn't bring this up, that they should focus on the arguments, not the person behind it. Nonetheless, our Code of Ethics does not say anywhere we should not boast our achievements, let alone forbid it. Anyways, I really don't wish to get into this.

Re your corporate analogy, I like it. I may even agree with restricting punishment to the HC team, although I would extend that to all the officers as well.

And if so, tell me, what company would go on without a BoD and executive officers? Would the shareholders be better off selling out and investing elsewhere or would they be better off keeping a blind venture spiralling downwards? Pride? Pride in what?

Anyways, at this point I have already made my point. And I wish to spend no more time in this matter.
That's a decision for the shareholders to make, not planetarion. Ultimately they can choose the same people who led them into this mess, or they can appoint someone else to run the ship. Either way, this shouldn't be our choice or the MH.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .Disc.
again, why ban officers, thats 10+ people who know nothing and have not done anything wrong? can you please just drop it now
Disc is absolutely dead right here. Ultimately officers aren't responsible for everything (they are just delegated tasks), HC are. And HC are far easier to define than officers. What is an 'officer' is very much open to debate.

My point about lawyers was a general comment on the thread; it applied to everyone who said it and I'm sorry if people misunderstood that. I wouldn't even point out I was a law student in riposte to someone saying it. I think 'unprofessional' is very different from lawyers' code of conduct which aims to generally deal with quality of service and preventing corruption, money laundering and misappropriation of funds. But if you don't think making your profession look like a bunch of twats who see themselves as better than everyone else isn't unprofessional, it's your call I guess. Clients should find their lawyer to be accessible, not some distant person who treats lay people with intellectual contempt.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 23:12   #59
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
...making your profession look like a bunch of twats...
You know who else looks like a twat? You.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 23:12   #60
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
You know who else looks like a twat? You.
That's a mighty fine riposte there. What's the beef son.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 23:15   #61
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Re: Official Denial Statement

You nailed it Sun Tzu.

Last edited by Aedolaws; 24 Jun 2008 at 23:33.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 23:20   #62
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
That's a mighty fine riposte there. What's the beef son.
You're calling him a twat when what he did was PRESENT AND ARGUEMENT IN CIVIL FASHION! Seriously, learn to read you witless moron, the twats in this thread were wholly on the other side of the argument, Aedolaws made an admirable effort to refrain from stooping to their level, his patience was far greater than I personally would have shown in his situation. And you illiterate **** come in and start attacking him for this? LEARN TO READ A ****ING THREAD BEFORE REPLYING TO IT! YOU ARE WASTING MY AND EVERYONE ELSES TIME YOUR SELFCENTERED BULLSHIT! *THAT* IS WHY YOU ARE A TWAT YOU ****ING MORON!
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 23:24   #63
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Ok i didnt want to respond but my fingers are itchy by your witchhunt Aedolaws,

I might aswell use a RL issue then, i dont know from what country you are but i dont care.
Ill make iraq as example, by morally being right the us command staff shouldve been more thorough before going to war since the claim was that iraq had chemical weapons and that apparently was falls so all military staff and officers should be accountable for the many deaths of innocent ppl so we should just blow the states away since theyre all accountable for the actions of the president they chose, the ppl had to police that and see if the claims was correct.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 23:29   #64
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Re: Official Denial Statement

There's an actual case to be made for what you're suggesting. The fact that the people who call the shots have been democratically elected could be taken to mean that the people that voted for them/him (and possibly even the people who refrained from voicing their objections by rising up) should be held responsible for their implicit consent. This does not necessarily mean we should kill them all, but I trust you get the idea.

While I realise this is wildly off-topic, I just wanted to illustrate the point that your analogy is flawed, farfetched and generally useless.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 23:32   #65
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by paeooke
Ok i didnt want to respond but my fingers are itchy by your witchhunt Aedolaws,

I might aswell use a RL issue then, i dont know from what country you are but i dont care.
Ill make iraq as example, by morally being right the us command staff shouldve been more thorough before going to war since the claim was that iraq had chemical weapons and that apparently was falls so all military staff and officers should be accountable for the many deaths of innocent ppl so we should just blow the states away since theyre all accountable for the actions of the president they chose, the ppl had to police that and see if the claims was correct.
Incorrect. However, the citizens of the U.S. are to be held accountable as is U.S. as a country. The citizens chose their leadership as is custom in a democracy, and re-affirmed said leadership through re-electing said leadership.

The military leadership are accountable for indiscretions within the army, their subordinates are accountable for the orders they put in motion. A soldier is also responsible for his fellow soldiers, in both good and bad.

I refer you to Aedolaws point earlier about analogies.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 23:35   #66
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
You're calling him a twat when what he did was PRESENT AND ARGUEMENT IN CIVIL FASHION! Seriously, learn to read you witless moron, the twats in this thread were wholly on the other side of the argument, Aedolaws made an admirable effort to refrain from stooping to their level, his patience was far greater than I personally would have shown in his situation. And you illiterate **** come in and start attacking him for this? LEARN TO READ A ****ING THREAD BEFORE REPLYING TO IT! YOU ARE WASTING MY AND EVERYONE ELSES TIME YOUR SELFCENTERED BULLSHIT! *THAT* IS WHY YOU ARE A TWAT YOU ****ING MORON!
In the last paragraph I didn't refer to anyone in particular. I even apologised for not articulating myself properly! If your issue is with the first line, well give me a chance to reply with that particular axe to grind.

I actually agree with you to be fair on Aedolaws he has presented an argument, but that doesn't mean I can't think it's crap and attack his view for various reasons which I've attempted to justify - mainly because I think he was applying ridiculously rigorous and most likely irrelevant principles of law to what ultimately is an internet game and has a view that doesn't really reflect what goes on in planetarion. HC's are responsible for situations like this from experience but peons really aren't and the laws of companies seem to go some way to reflect that (although would never suggest to a MH to apply the law to the letter hence my use of the word 'broadly')

There is a long list of posters who I have had a lot of time for who would go out on a limb to call an argument crap, but then go to the time to explain why they thought it was crap at reasonable length. And my post has just done just that. You're more than welcome to call people whatever you like on the forum, so long as the tone of the post isn't abusive and that you actually go out and make an argument out of it. There is nothing wrong with having a controversial opinion, calling someone else's a load of crap then going out to justify it.

So you can either chill or continue ranting for pretty much no reason given the background of this forum.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 23:39   #67
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Re: Official Denial Statement

it a free round get over it dammit nobos
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 23:42   #68
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Re: Official Denial Statement

you keep pulling me back.

You guys are taking this now to a whole different level.

SpaceCookie, NO, (1) you are naive to think the NATO commanders did not know EXACTLY what Saddam Hussein's regime had. (2) World reality also has to deal with "reality," and such trivial things as geography, history, the probability of thousands of deads, etc. It is absurd to ask me that question.

Mzy, NO, (1) in light of what I said in the previous paragraph, (2) I did call for their full reset for this round... not a permanent ban... not the electric chair.

I think robban may have a point. I am over with this.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 23:47   #69
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I just wanted to illustrate the point that your analogy is flawed, farfetched and generally useless.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 23:48   #70
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
In the last paragraph I didn't refer to anyone in particular. I even apologised for not articulating myself properly! If your issue is with the first line, well give me a chance to reply with that particular axe to grind.

I actually agree with you to be fair on Aedolaws he has presented an argument, but that doesn't mean I can't think it's crap and attack his view for various reasons which I've attempted to justify - mainly because I think he was applying ridiculously rigorous and most likely irrelevant principles of law to what ultimately is an internet game and has a view that doesn't really reflect what goes on in planetarion. HC's are responsible for situations like this from experience but peons really aren't and the laws of companies seem to go some way to reflect that (although would never suggest to a MH to apply the law to the letter hence my use of the word 'broadly')

There is a long list of posters who I have had a lot of time for who would go out on a limb to call an argument crap, but then go to the time to explain why they thought it was crap at reasonable length. And my post has just done just that. You're more than welcome to call people whatever you like on the forum, so long as the tone of the post isn't abusive and that you actually go out and make an argument out of it. There is nothing wrong with having a controversial opinion, calling someone else's a load of crap then going out to justify it.

So you can either chill or continue ranting for pretty much no reason given the background of this forum.
I took offense to all of your posts in this thread, they've been overall of a very poor quality, several times bordering on ad hominem when you run out of real arguments and suffering from a general lack of understanding of the conversation that has preceded it.

Also, "gee, thanks" for "tolerating" my posting.
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Unread 24 Jun 2008, 23:59   #71
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Re: Official Denial Statement

im not asking you a question, im making a point
Denial HC did something they shouldnt do you say we should punish them all.
U.S government knew what they were doing something they (and we can debate about this about whos right whos wrong) shouldnt have done (not taking away that it allready happend and its not the issue at hand im just making a comparison)?. Now should we hold the entire country accountable for things they didnt know should we all punish them ?.
Im not going to go in discussion wether or not the nato knew or didnt know what hussein had its irrelevant, you dont know and i dont know neither have i seen proof altho i could sum up a few things what i do have proof of anyway thats off topic.
So let me rephrase to be clear you say all of the community in denial is repsonsible for the cheating of 3 of their command and should be held accountable for the cheating and all should be punished, So u.s citizens are to be held accountable by the actions of their leaders chose to do ?.
If we lived in an idealistic world with high standard morals we might be able to display that in a game im not saying the choices made by certain persons is a good thing i dislike cheating as many others.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 00:00   #72
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
Personally I think Aedolaws is talking a load of crap, firstly about planetarion and secondly about law.

...

For the record, boasting about the fact you are a law student is just plain unprofessional. You can certainly argue well on this forum and in fact anywhere without saying such, simply because one would expect you to have the skill to do so in any case. To use it to assert yourself and use it as some sort of weapon when people call you out for shit arguments is well, shit in the extreme from my point of view. Quite I honestly i couldn't care what anyone is - as the moderator its just nice to see good arguments, whoever wrote them - even from people I really can't stand from a personal point of view.
The first part of this quote is unsubstantiated and/or based on incorrect information, the second part is an ad hominem argument which is unfounded, uncalled for and shows that the poster has not read the preceding thread sufficiently to understand the conversation that has taken place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
My point about lawyers was a general comment on the thread; it applied to everyone who said it and I'm sorry if people misunderstood that. I wouldn't even point out I was a law student in riposte to someone saying it. I think 'unprofessional' is very different from lawyers' code of conduct which aims to generally deal with quality of service and preventing corruption, money laundering and misappropriation of funds. But if you don't think making your profession look like a bunch of twats who see themselves as better than everyone else isn't unprofessional, it's your call I guess. Clients should find their lawyer to be accessible, not some distant person who treats lay people with intellectual contempt.
This second quote continues on the ad hominems, thinly veiled behind generalizations to avoid accountability. This is not the level of posting of a Moderator.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 00:03   #73
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Re: Official Denial Statement

"So u.s citizens are to be held accountable by the actions of their leaders chose to do?"

YES! As taxpayers YES! And this is an everyday happening. Further, US citizens pay the consequences in many other ways, from the price you pay at the gas pump, to the world opinion on US citizens and the perils it creates when U.S. citizens travel abroad. YES! HELL YES! (and I live in the U.S.) That is the beauty of democratic capitalism!

But, if you are looking for more concrete historical examples. Think post-war Germany... TWICE! Or any other major conflict in history...
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 00:04   #74
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by paeooke
im not asking you a question, im making a point
Go back, re-read, your point has been proven incorrect twice in rapid succession. Please refrain from posting anew in this thread until you've understood your previous mistakes.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 00:10   #75
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
You're calling him a twat when what he did was PRESENT AND ARGUEMENT IN CIVIL FASHION! Seriously, learn to read you witless moron, the twats in this thread were wholly on the other side of the argument, Aedolaws made an admirable effort to refrain from stooping to their level, his patience was far greater than I personally would have shown in his situation. And you illiterate **** come in and start attacking him for this? LEARN TO READ A ****ING THREAD BEFORE REPLYING TO IT! YOU ARE WASTING MY AND EVERYONE ELSES TIME YOUR SELFCENTERED BULLSHIT! *THAT* IS WHY YOU ARE A TWAT YOU ****ING MORON!
olol

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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 00:12   #76
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
I took offense to all of your posts in this thread, they've been overall of a very poor quality, several times bordering on ad hominem when you run out of real arguments and suffering from a general lack of understanding of the conversation that has preceded it.

Also, "gee, thanks" for "tolerating" my posting.
I'm confident that by analysing the applicability of his argument to the game and saying why it isn't applicable and that there are better methods to punish Denial without going overboard that I've avoided ad hominem. Ultimately I've gone through his point and pretty much stated my point of view first and foremost and the points where I attack the methods by which people have asserted their arguments have generally been as asides (regardless of length) rather than the crux of my point.

Ultimately should people be responsible for reporting anything? People exploiting bugs? Which is cheating is it not? This is what the wider thread is about and if people are going to argue about legal principles and their applicability to the game, i'll look at it in the context of the game, the situation at hand and analyse accordingly. The poster I was arguing with even took the time to agree with or at least identify with the alternative solution that I proposed. You talk of running out of arguments, but ultimately there is only one argument here: that thinking of alliances as if they are companies is probably far more relevant and realistic when we see bug exploits/cheating like this. One is all I need as far as i can see.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 00:13   #77
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
The first part of this quote is unsubstantiated and/or based on incorrect information, the second part is an ad hominem argument which is unfounded, uncalled for and shows that the poster has not read the preceding thread sufficiently to understand the conversation that has taken place.


This second quote continues on the ad hominems, thinly veiled behind generalizations to avoid accountability. This is not the level of posting of a Moderator.
These are pretty irrelevant to the general point of my post, and they were just personal opinion. I don't think they make my point about how we should run the game and how we should view the conduct of alliances any more or less valid.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 00:19   #78
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Re: Official Denial Statement

It wasn't your opinion I took offense with, it was the way you presented it. Also I refer you to my previous posts in this thread which overturn most of your arguments in support of your opposing view, leaving you with little more than your own personal opinion left(although in truth there are quite a few arguments for your opinion, and I also partially agree with your opinion and had also stated a similar belief earlier in this thread).
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 00:26   #79
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
Go back, re-read, your point has been proven incorrect twice in rapid succession. Please refrain from posting anew in this thread until you've understood your previous mistakes.
im free to post and discuss what i want and no my point has not been invalidated.
Anyway keep in your short sighted worlds that morally is so perfect and ideal.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 01:12   #80
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Re: Official Denial Statement

The only way the pa players can be held responsible for the actions of others is if they actively encourage a course of action thats against the rules, and considering these planets themselves got closed, theirs nothing more you can do within the basis of the eula. The position of HC doesnt pass on a role of accountability ingame at all, theirs no assumed role of responsibility for the actions of other planets beyond what i already mentioned, and this works both ways, from hc to members and vice versa. Personally i think you should report cheating to the mhs, but thats really down to the alliance/players themselves. In the past theirs been evidence of cheating being reported within an alliance by other members and the opposite happening.

Admittedly i didnt read most of this last page because theirs a great deal of faggotry that i skipped over.

p.s. agreeing with rl analogies mean jack shit in pa where the rules are clearly stated and differ from rl.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 02:36   #81
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Re: Official Denial Statement

personally (and i'm sure i'll be flamed like everyone else) i feel that all parties involved should've received the same punishment - regardless of how it would affect Denial as an alliance. apparently HC that cheated were reset and Members that did the same thing were deleted in fear that the alliance would fall apart from lack of leadership. granted, i could be misinformed, but if this is true how would their absence in game have any affect on the alliance on irc? they shouldn't be treated differently because of some fear that the alliance would fall apart. they cheated and should accept the repercussions of that. if the alliance can't hold itself together, then so be it.

oh, and both sides of the arguments in this thread i think are both correct in their aspects, but i'm not sure you can actively punish the alliance directly as a whole due to members allegedly knowing and not speaking up about it. though, like i said earlier, if it didn't hold itself together afterwards by itself - i don't think any MH or Admin help should be given to aid it along.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 02:44   #82
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
personally (and i'm sure i'll be flamed like everyone else) i feel that all parties involved should've received the same punishment -
They did.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 03:06   #83
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Re: Official Denial Statement

ugh Aedolaws great way to reinforce the stereotype of lawyers (and law students especially) as arrogant, elitist, excessively prideful, wordy idiots.

Once you're out of law school you'll hopefully see that you don't need to be this way to be persuasive or successfully advocate for your clients. And people will actually like you.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 03:10   #84
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Did you really read the whole thing? Anyways, out of the 4 adjectives you used, I only have problem with the last one, and even then, only with the 2nd 1/2 of it.

Once again, it is this type of shit that makes professionally trained individuals (whether doctors, lawyers, etc) to turn a deaf ear to complaints of being insensitive. Although not always, usually lay people have a hard time understanding, let alone articulating, most of what they are hearing and and/or trying to communicate.

Do you know any partner working in a top 100 Manhattan law firm? They may be humble fellas indeed... outside the court or the conference room!! But in the heat of the battle (i.e. during depositions or when cross examining a witness) they become different creatures. And they would indeed go the extra mile for their client's benefit. Only a handful are capable of avoiding this while doing their best, and usually they are old experienced lawyers who have seen it all and are about to retire.

Now, I am not among family or friends or even acquaintances. And I am not in a public event or place where this behavior is uncalled for. Instead, I am in a public chat forum accusing a few players and defending my "opinion" about rules, breaches and consequences. What could be more proper than this rethoric? We are debating after all! Do you think I talk like this (and there is nothing wrong with my language in here) with my 6 years old nephew? With the lady I buy burritos from? With my friends from college? Come on!! give me a break!

Most people might not like lawyers, I agree, but they desperately seek one when the shit hits rock bottom. And all but the most sophisticated businessmen will beg their attorney to do their best to solve their problems quickly and in the cheapest way. So then, then, then you want an arrogant, elitist, excessively prideful, wordy idiot who can get the job done for you the most efficient way! Even if this requires hiring the prick, instead of the nice one. Just like most people that are going to have heart surgery would choose the successful surgeon that believes he is God because he brings people back to life... instead of the nice surgeon working in a free clinic who only gets to write referrals. You want the best... and the best are usually full of pride (which is bad, I admit). In the academic world law students are usually the over achievers, even ahead of med students, so it makes perfect sense that most of us sin of pride.

Law school is simply the first stage in our career. Thus, it makes sense that we acquire these (sometimes negative) traits early on. And yes, we law students may sound like pricks, because we barely know what we are talking about, but we have no doubt that we know more than most people. If you Dan, went through this stage already, you better than most here should understand me.

Finally, that you find my behavior to be offensive is understandable. I get it. What I cannot understand is chastising my demeanor while finding no fault in the words of other players here.

Please Dan, next time you have this sort of thought, pause for a second, and let it go.

P.S.

- For the last time, this thread is not about me. It is about Denial's cheating! I promise to refrain from posting again, if people stop attacking me.

- And, if you are an attorney and you are really trying to give me constructive advise. Ok, advise taken. Thank you. Really. I'll get back to you in 20 years when I may be wiser.

Last edited by Aedolaws; 25 Jun 2008 at 05:55.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 03:30   #85
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Re: Official Denial Statement

unfortunately for you, i think dan knows what he is talking about.. being a lawyer and all

however, i admire your argument Aedolaws.

aside from the part about closing everyone that is, thats really not fair on the rank-and-file members.

also: no, HCs have no direct responsibility to report cheating, however they do have a duty to the community as a whole.. and it could be argued that one implies the other.

also2: flaming sucks.

and besides.. its not like the decision will be overturned (and also, i think all those involved were offered a reset as an alternative to deletion? or is that just a vicious rumour that MHs can actually be nice)
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 03:54   #86
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Re: Official Denial Statement

We need to stop trying to relate this situation to the real world. This even conspired in a fictional universe, where a group of people known as the PA Team has complete authority and control over everyone. They were informed of a breach of contract (a.k.a the rules/EULA) and as such investigated the events. Their investigation found them 5 people who were exploiting a supposedly fixed bug in the code and was a breach of contract, and as such delivered a punishment for there crimes. Its in my opinion all 5 should've had their planets permanently closed for the round and for the repeat offender perma banned.

Despite the "enforcers of the game handing out punishment a group of alliances took it upon themselves to punish the remaining members inside the game as well. Now what was left had nothing to do with the cheaters, was attacked an unjustified attack that had nothing to do with anybodys alliance. This act makes them no better than how america handles the world, and its sad because you europeans give us americans grief for it but yet at first chance you do the same thing, sad really.

I know this samething happened last round when some cheaters were caught, you people need to let the PA Team handle these issues and just play the damn game. This kind of self righteous cleansing punishment you feel you need to give cheaters needs to stop, its not your job or your duty, and it pulls from the fun of the game. Its gotta start somewhere.

Before you crucify me and flame me til my hair turns red, yes i am a member of xVx an alliance part of this attack, but that doesn't mean i agree to it and i refused to take part of it.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 04:37   #87
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazypyro
We need to stop trying to relate this situation to the real world. This even conspired in a fictional universe, where a group of people known as the PA Team has complete authority and control over everyone. They were informed of a breach of contract (a.k.a the rules/EULA) and as such investigated the events. Their investigation found them 5 people who were exploiting a supposedly fixed bug in the code and was a breach of contract, and as such delivered a punishment for there crimes. Its in my opinion all 5 should've had their planets permanently closed for the round and for the repeat offender perma banned.

Despite the "enforcers of the game handing out punishment a group of alliances took it upon themselves to punish the remaining members inside the game as well. Now what was left had nothing to do with the cheaters, was attacked an unjustified attack that had nothing to do with anybodys alliance. This act makes them no better than how america handles the world, and its sad because you europeans give us americans grief for it but yet at first chance you do the same thing, sad really.

I know this samething happened last round when some cheaters were caught, you people need to let the PA Team handle these issues and just play the damn game. This kind of self righteous cleansing punishment you feel you need to give cheaters needs to stop, its not your job or your duty, and it pulls from the fun of the game. Its gotta start somewhere.

Before you crucify me and flame me til my hair turns red, yes i am a member of xVx an alliance part of this attack, but that doesn't mean i agree to it and i refused to take part of it.
Do you actually believe that this cheating incident is the actual reason for their attack, its a convenient smokescreen to allow them to ally up and bash an alliance that was looking very strong and might have run away with the round.

The whole holier than thou attitude of many of you in this thread is ridiculous, many of you have broken the EULA in some way or another at some point in time during the course of your PA careers, whether you were caught or not is immaterial, its still hypocritical.

As for the crime in question, whilst obviously against the rules, the end results of it seem to me to be quite minor and the mitigating circumstances would to me have seemed to be worthy of some consideration when dishing out punishment, but the MH team lives for drama, its a reaffirmation of their existence when they catch some high profile people doing the wrong thing, why do you think it leaked so quickly.

Further the cheat in question, was just a more convoluted way of doing something that everyone did 3 rounds ago, this bug has existed for a long time and we should be shining the spotlight now on the inadequacies of the PA coding rather than on those tried, convicted and sentenced, they've had their days of shame its time to move forward not backward and this whole bandwagon is a ridiculous joke.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 05:44   #88
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle
Do you actually believe that this cheating incident is the actual reason for their attack, its a convenient smokescreen to allow them to ally up and bash an alliance that was looking very strong and might have run away with the round.
Why does this sound so familiar?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazypyro
you people need to let the PA Team handle these issues and just play the damn game. This kind of self righteous cleansing punishment you feel you need to give cheaters needs to stop, its not your job or your duty, and it pulls from the fun of the game.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 08:10   #89
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazypyro
We need to stop trying to relate this situation to the real world. This even conspired in a fictional universe, where a group of people known as the PA Team has complete authority and control over everyone. They were informed of a breach of contract (a.k.a the rules/EULA) and as such investigated the events. Their investigation found them 5 people who were exploiting a supposedly fixed bug in the code and was a breach of contract, and as such delivered a punishment for there crimes. Its in my opinion all 5 should've had their planets permanently closed for the round and for the repeat offender perma banned.

Despite the "enforcers of the game handing out punishment a group of alliances took it upon themselves to punish the remaining members inside the game as well. Now what was left had nothing to do with the cheaters, was attacked an unjustified attack that had nothing to do with anybodys alliance. This act makes them no better than how america handles the world, and its sad because you europeans give us americans grief for it but yet at first chance you do the same thing, sad really.
You mention that PA shouldn't be compared to real world. Yet this can't happen as it is ultimately played by people living there.
Our personal ethics and political views do affect the actions we take in PA. I would even go as far and say that they are amplified.

What happened in this case - just like with asc last round - is that the cheating was performed by the current political leadership.
A real world example: If an amok shooter kills 20 people the whole world feels compassion for the country in which it happened. If the president of that very same country orders 20 people to be executed, it will be damned by the rest of the world.

This simple mechanism is translated to the fictional PA universe. Difference being that it lacks complicated global relationships or slow hierarchies and that everyone has control over his own army. The punishment, or shall we say expression of feelings, happens instantly. Which is the amplification I meant earlier.

Rationally you can't hold members of Denial responsible for the actions of their HC. Yet in PA like in the real world country and government (alliance and HC) will always blend together in public perception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle
Do you actually believe that this cheating incident is the actual reason for their attack, its a convenient smokescreen to allow them to ally up and bash an alliance that was looking very strong and might have run away with the round.
Well yes - without the cheating it would be impossible to bring that many allies into such a hit this fast. While some blocking versus Denial seems logical due to the roid advantage organizing it and convincing everyone takes time if there isn't a more "uniting" reason.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 08:22   #90
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Following the idea that has been brought forward in this post that denial itself should be punished for having cheaters in tag (some ppl going as far as saying remove the tag & ban all members) I have come up with an even better idea:

- All alliances and their members that ever had a cheater in their alliance should be banned from the game for life.
- All people in galaxies that ever had a cheater in it should be banned from the game for life.
- All of the victories ppl have had that have been cought cheating should be taken away from those people and they should be banned for live.
- All victories alliances have had that ever had a cheater in tag should also be stripped from that alliance and the alliance and all it's members should be banned for life.
- Anybody that has ever been on IRC might have come across a cheater too, so ban everyone on IRC for life.
- Anybody that posts on the forum has probably met a cheater once, so they should all be banned from playing too...

This would probably leave us with maybe 3 players left, those players being closely monitored by 2 MH's / planet!


Alot of people are probably thinking "are you crazy????" after reading the first part of my post, but I wrote that for a reason.
When you start punishing innocent people over the actions of somebody else that they know, simply based on the assumption "you must have known what they were doing" then we can close the game.
Every alliance has had it's cheaters in the past, everybody playing PA for some time has probably been in touch with cheaters without knowing that person cheated, it even happened to me last round: I was gc of somebody that was closed & deleted for shipfarming and breaking the rules of his exception...
Does that mean that last round me and my entire galaxy should have been closed just caus that 1 person cheated?
Using the reasoning some people have displayed in this thread I would start to think so caus as his GC I was responsible for him...

I'm sorry, but if that is what is considered justice then I really don't want to see what would happen in the real world if that principle was used (since people seem to be having a hard on for using real life situtations in a discussion about a game on the internet)

I'm not a lawyer nor do I know any legal terms and latin is beyond me, so I'll just finish my post with a final conclusion:

Don't punish people simple based on other people's actions and the assumption that they probably knew what they were doing.

P.S. sorry for making a long post (not my habbit) but I did it to express how firmly I'm against some of the views people have brought forward in this thread.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 08:50   #91
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!

Alot of people are probably thinking "are you crazy????" after reading the first part of my post, but I wrote that for a reason.
When you start punishing innocent people over the actions of somebody else that they know, simply based on the assumption "you must have known what they were doing" then we can close the game.
You dear sir is an shining example of stupidity. The examples you listed are just shere lunacy trying to bring the subject off topic and avoid the facts of this case.

FACT: We all sign an EULA where it SPECIFICALLY says:
Quote:
Originally Posted by EULA
Bots

Bots are not permitted to be used to access the game. Bot use is defined as, but not limited to:

Using browser plug-ins that would make it easier for you to play the game

Accessing the pages with another program (for example to check if you are under attack) see section 8.
Do you see that using browser plug-ins that would make it easier for you to play the game thing that stands there?

Im sorry, but breaking the rules because you're a moron that cba to read the EULA is not an excuse or something that in my book counts as "leverage" for a ligther punishment.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 08:56   #92
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
Following the idea that has been brought forward in this post that denial itself should be punished for having cheaters in tag (some ppl going as far as saying remove the tag & ban all members) I have come up with an even better idea:

- All alliances and their members that ever had a cheater in their alliance should be banned from the game for life.
- All people in galaxies that ever had a cheater in it should be banned from the game for life.
- All of the victories ppl have had that have been cought cheating should be taken away from those people and they should be banned for live.
- All victories alliances have had that ever had a cheater in tag should also be stripped from that alliance and the alliance and all it's members should be banned for life.
- Anybody that has ever been on IRC might have come across a cheater too, so ban everyone on IRC for life.
- Anybody that posts on the forum has probably met a cheater once, so they should all be banned from playing too...

This would probably leave us with maybe 3 players left, those players being closely monitored by 2 MH's / planet!


Alot of people are probably thinking "are you crazy????" after reading the first part of my post, but I wrote that for a reason.
When you start punishing innocent people over the actions of somebody else that they know, simply based on the assumption "you must have known what they were doing" then we can close the game.
Every alliance has had it's cheaters in the past, everybody playing PA for some time has probably been in touch with cheaters without knowing that person cheated, it even happened to me last round: I was gc of somebody that was closed & deleted for shipfarming and breaking the rules of his exception...
Does that mean that last round me and my entire galaxy should have been closed just caus that 1 person cheated?
Using the reasoning some people have displayed in this thread I would start to think so caus as his GC I was responsible for him...

I'm sorry, but if that is what is considered justice then I really don't want to see what would happen in the real world if that principle was used (since people seem to be having a hard on for using real life situtations in a discussion about a game on the internet)

I'm not a lawyer nor do I know any legal terms and latin is beyond me, so I'll just finish my post with a final conclusion:

Don't punish people simple based on other people's actions and the assumption that they probably knew what they were doing.

P.S. sorry for making a long post (not my habbit) but I did it to express how firmly I'm against some of the views people have brought forward in this thread.

good post, agree with everything.
Aedolaws, case closed.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 08:59   #93
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
You dear sir is an shining example of stupidity. The examples you listed are just shere lunacy trying to bring the subject off topic and avoid the facts of this case.

FACT: We all sign an EULA where it SPECIFICALLY says:

Do you see that using browser plug-ins that would make it easier for you to play the game thing that stands there?

Im sorry, but breaking the rules because you're a moron that cba to read the EULA is not an excuse or something that in my book counts as "leverage" for a ligther punishment.
If you had bothered to read (yes, I know, it might be hard for you) you might have realised that my reply was directed at the people that are claiming that Denial as an alliance itself should be banned and all people in Denial closed.

I have absolutly no problem with having people closed for cheating, and they have been punished by the MH's which they deserved.
Case closed

However the other people in Denial shouldn't be punished simply caus certain people in their alliance acted like morons!
That was the essence of my post but appearantly you've managed to completly miss the point (though I though I had made it perfectly clear), had you bothered to READ you might have noticed that.

You sir, are a shining example of completly missing other people's points and then rambling on about something that has absolutly nothing to do with what the poster you are trying to insult.
You say the examples i posted are shere lunacy... Guess what, they were meant to be shere lunacy just as punishing Denial as an alliance and all it's members based on certain people's stupiditys is lunacy aswell.

Edit: After reading your post again I really need to ask you a serious question: Did you or did you not bother to READ the entire post completly???? (please reply to this Kargool)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
Following the idea that has been brought forward in this post that denial itself should be punished for having cheaters in tag (some ppl going as far as saying remove the tag & ban all members) I have come up with an even better idea:
You didn't even read the first line of the post and you're calling me a shining example of stupidity? (I even bolded it out for just for you in the quote)
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 09:07   #94
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Re: Official Denial Statement

The arguments put forward by both sides are quiete intense and numerous. Theres alot of logical analysis, not to mention the Legal jargan. There has been alot of thought put into each argument, with only a little bit of petty namecalling about.

What i feel the need to bring to your attention is this:

IT'S A FK'N GAME.
I've played to many Online games to want to admit to, and the Guilds/Clans/Alliances are what make it such a social and fun game. But i'll be damned if i would want ANY of my various characters/toons/cars etc, penalised for something someone else has done.

The people involved were punished, this is not a legal case, no-one is going to get done for obstruction of justice.
The suggestion of punishing everyone in the alliance, while not a stupid idea, it is a lucrative idea.
Let's say I cheat.
Is everyone in my Galaxy to be punished?
Is everyone in my alliance to be punished?
Is every alliance that has a member in my galaxy to be punished?
Is then, every member in every galaxy that has a member in the alliance that was in my original galaxy to be punished?
And if not why not? they all had about the same chances of knowing as any of the other options!

The grit of the story:
Some people cheated
They got caught
They were punished.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 09:07   #95
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
If you had bothered to read (yes, I know, it might be hard for you) you might have realised that my reply was directed at the people that are claiming that Denial as an alliance itself should be banned and all people in Denial closed.

I have absolutly no problem with having people closed for cheating, and they have been punished by the MH's which they deserved.
Case closed

However the other people in Denial shouldn't be punished simply caus certain people in their alliance acted like morons!
That was the essence of my post but appearantly you've managed to completly miss the point (though I though I had made it perfectly clear), had you bothered to READ you might have noticed that.

You sir, are a shining example of completly missing other people's points and then rambling on about something that has absolutly nothing to do with what the poster you are trying to insult.
You say the examples i posted are shere lunacy... Guess what, they were meant to be shere lunacy just as punishing Denial as an alliance and all it's members based on certain people's stupiditys is lunacy aswell.

Edit: After reading your post again I really need to ask you a serious question: Did you or did you not bother to READ the entire post completly???? (please reply to this Kargool)

Im fairly sure that the community is in a process of punishing Denial as we speak!
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 09:12   #96
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
However the other people in Denial shouldn't be punished simply caus certain people in their alliance acted like morons!
No they shouldn't.

But its become painfully clear to me reading this thread, that punishing an entire alliance for the actions of a few seems to be the only way to associate any sort of cost with cheating, or any sort of reward for playing cleanly, and I strongly suspect that its a continuing failure to address this, that once again we all have to read this sort of crappy thread.
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 09:12   #97
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Im fairly sure that the community is in a process of punishing Denial as we speak!
And did I somewhere post that I'm against ingame actions taken against them?
Seriously, are you trying to intentionally miss my point completly or are you just stupid like that?

I'll say it once again and one more time, in bold and in colour just so it might get through your thick skull.

The reply I posted was aimed towards the people saying in this thread that the Denial should be removed and their officers / members all closed!
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 09:16   #98
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
that punishing an entire alliance for the actions of a few seems to be the only way to associate any sort of cost with cheating
I am not trying to start anything here, but in all seriousness, if someone is cheating they pretty much don't care about playing fairly or respecting the community it is playing in. What are the odds the care about getting an alliance shutdown?
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 09:18   #99
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Im fairly sure that the community is in a process of punishing Denial as we speak!
Yes. Of course it is a punishment for the events that has taken place the last days. It has nothing to do with the fact that "someone" wanted to take out Denial and they didn't have the balls to do it themselves. So why not find a good excuse to teamup with other allies and get back the #1 position

Well.. It's all part of the game I suppose. The hypocrisy, the backstabbing, the blocking.. Yawn..
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Unread 25 Jun 2008, 09:21   #100
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Re: Official Denial Statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
No they shouldn't.

But its become painfully clear to me reading this thread, that punishing an entire alliance for the actions of a few seems to be the only way to associate any sort of cost with cheating, or any sort of reward for playing cleanly, and I strongly suspect that its a continuing failure to address this, that once again we all have to read this sort of crappy thread.
So you wouldn't mind then if a cheater got caught in your alliance and they decided to close you and your entire alliance simply based on what that person did...

Will be mighty easy to take an alliance out then, just get one of your people recruited by that alliance and let him cheat on purpose... Bye bye other alliance that might have been a threat to yours.
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