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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 10:32   #1
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R23: Cluster ETAs

I'm very much considering removing them, but I'd like feedback on the topic.

I've been told that cluster alliances generally don't happen (apart from the standard cluster-wide NAP at the beginning of the round that falls apart). Top galaxies use this to use the other galaxies as farms and the other galaxies feel unable to respond*, and this isn't offset by the ETA gains.

Therefore, it either restricts you from 5% of the universe (9 galaxies or so) or causes you to be farmed. It also complicates any sort of defence rules about out of galaxy defence, and contributes to support planets.


I'd like to hear if this is a general feeling or if a minority has spoken out, thanks



*Bashar would be the first to point out that the other galaxies could and should get together and retal back, using the cluster ETA to their advantage
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 10:58   #2
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

I think the problem with clusters today is that they do not mix with alliance politics due to the random galaxy fill up. It is a problem to combine this randomness with alliance wars (as we see in galaxies with planets from both sides of a war in it). There are chances alliances end up with members on both sides of a cluster "war"/fight, or that galaxies are completely torn apart by not being able to combine their alliances political relations with the cluster setup (ingal "spies" who are related to players on the other side of the C-war). To avoid this, ppl in general go for the safe option of a full cluster nap, as organizing anything in cluster is quite tricky due to alliance politics coming first for most players.

Using the support planet argument against cluster eta is quite sad tbh (and again shows why it should be removed). Just because it adds another gray area to an already vague rule, doesn't mean it should be removed completely. I think it is nice to have as an extra source of defence (eventhough not that many players offer their fleets to defend), but attack wise the cluster doesn't really add that much apart from creating farms from unliky galaxies or nap breakers. Cluster wars "worked" with private galaxies, but in the current setup its generally not easy to arrange (without doing alot of work which no one wants to do).

[edit]
*Sigh*, that said i don't think clusters need to be removed totally (its nice to allow some other form of coorperation / source of defence than just alliances), but the attack option might do more harm than good as its usually the already bad/shitty gals that end up on the wrong side of it.
[/edit]
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Last edited by Wandows; 5 Aug 2007 at 11:22.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 11:08   #3
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Remove em.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 11:31   #4
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Remove them.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 11:47   #5
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Bring back ingal attacks

The number of times I've wanted to rape my galmates this round is just off the scale. Why should I have to suffer because of an arbitrary ingame limitation?
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 12:13   #6
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

They are useless with the current playerbase and the galsetups.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 12:16   #7
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
Bring back ingal attacks

The number of times I've wanted to rape my galmates this round is just off the scale. Why should I have to suffer because of an arbitrary ingame limitation?
Signed.

Also - forgive the noob question, I haven't played for a long time properly - but do cluster alliances not form a fundamental part of the universe structure? What ever happened to cluster wars?
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 12:19   #8
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

As Appoco said, they don't happen any more. People are either afraid of getting owned, or they don't have enough fleets available because their gal or alliance needs them, or they simply don't care.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 12:28   #9
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

The reason Cluster eta's were abolished in the first place was simply because they encouraged cluster block farming of the rubbish gals about halfway through the round.

They are arbitrary, add nothing to the game, either socially or strategically, and further incentivise bashing. As such, they should be abolished (again).
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 12:42   #10
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

i fully support last speaker.

I spoke quite clearly and adament against it when it was reintroduced as something useless and not really adding anything but horror to the game.

I hope that the pa team have learned and removes this stupidity quickly.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 12:45   #11
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Remove em.
for once i agree with him :P
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 12:53   #12
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Ah right having read your reasons I agree it's probably a better idea to remove them.

Thanks for clearing it up for me :-)
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 13:25   #13
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

remove the cluster eta bonus AND bring back ingal attacks. the more targets the better
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 13:29   #14
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Maybe not very common, but my gal this round has a nice cluster ally, and I must say last 2 rounds equally. Defence *was* sent in cluster, and it was then just not a NAP.

Why not remove the cluster attack eta bonus, but keep the -2 bonus on cluster defence?

Farming is prevented, cluster alliances are favoured, and those who don't want it can just ignore it.

[Edit]
I'm not in favour of in-gal attacks. Even at universe ETA. I reckon I sometimes wished I could rape a gal mate, but that's just plain wrong...

Your galaxy is your last resort on defence, and it is basically your home place, even if alliance politics, wars, etc., *could* hinder the good working of a gal...

More targets maybe, but just like 10 more in 3000... Not significant Makhil.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 13:44   #15
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

i agree take away the attack bonus but i know for a fact that i have received in cluster defence and c2 was a very active cluster this round so leave the def bonus plz
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 14:07   #16
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Why don't you totally change it for a round to see if some other setup might make the game more interesting?

I'd like to see all cluster defence for all ships at ETA 6 regardless of ship type (similar to galaxy ETA 5). Instead of just forming a NAP for the cluster players might increase the amount of effort put into cluster defence.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 15:46   #17
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

How about giving it a chance, long ago they formed a big part of the game when used properly, given time people will learn to use them correctly again....

Throwing something like this in takes time for people to adapt to, dont just write it off as a failure because the game did not change over night...
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 16:09   #18
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper
Why don't you totally change it for a round to see if some other setup might make the game more interesting?

I'd like to see all cluster defence for all ships at ETA 6 regardless of ship type (similar to galaxy ETA 5). Instead of just forming a NAP for the cluster players might increase the amount of effort put into cluster defence.

I can see the benefits, but the outcome of this will be alliances trying to cram clusters with member planets exiling untill they land in a "friendly" cluster.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 17:23   #19
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyVince
Why not remove the cluster attack eta bonus, but keep the -2 bonus on cluster defence?

Farming is prevented, cluster alliances are favoured, and those who don't want it can just ignore it.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 17:53   #20
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

I'd rather have no clusters and all Universe eta's reduced by 1. That could speed the game up a bit. More action, less waiting.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 18:23   #21
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

My gal attacked inside cluster early on. Then we allied with the same galaxy after a while, and have gotten to know a few new people this round, due to this cluster alliance.

Keep it as it is. This is one of the few aspects of the game where you can use some diplomatic skill and gain from it, the rest of the game is wank (specially stats).
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 18:29   #22
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

There was a cluster war at the start of the round in one of the higher numbered clusters. I heard a LOT of people had fun. NAPs are part of the meta-game, not hardcoded. If you don't like your cluster NAP, don't follow it. Or don't join the NAP as a galaxy. Or leave it if it isn't advantageous.

Don't remove cluster defence ETA bonuses. Leave c defence bonus, remove the c attack bonus, bring back the final ETA research. Then you've effectivly removed the need for cluster NAPs, while maintaining the possibility of cluster alliance/cooperation between galaxies that's profitable.

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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 20:33   #23
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

remove em
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 20:36   #24
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Bring back final eta research, and loose cluster attack bonus. Keep cluster def bonus, because it is a different way to build community in the game.
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Unread 5 Aug 2007, 22:41   #25
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

bring back parallels.
That was fun.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 00:06   #26
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

wow, where to start...


im in cluster 10 this round, the first i have played since round 10, and i have to say, what a waste of time the cluster is, its been ridiculous, the amount of in cluster incoming at one point seriously nearly made my entire galaxy quit, as we were being treated as the cluster farm. some hard hard defending changed that, but still they come, and still they fake attack, nearly every night we sucessfully defend in cluster attacks, and annoyingly there is no penalty for the fact that they pull, time after time after time.


i would say remove cluster ETA's completely and reintroduce 25 person galaxies so that you have more defence available, that way you would still get a reasonable amount of people without the ridiculous farming that they try. the current setup means you have a lot of people who find it very hard to grow past a certain point, as every time they try their cluster knocks them back... it doesnt make for an enjoyable game, and thats how you lose people.


personally i would also say start using E for fuel again so that you cant send out 3 attacks a night and pull 3 attacks a night without any downside, but thats just me
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 00:21   #27
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
personally i would also say start using E for fuel again so that you cant send out 3 attacks a night and pull 3 attacks a night without any downside, but thats just me
You mean people actually paid attention to E when it existed as a fuel? :/ I always just inited a few E roids and before I knew it I had 36,000,000 E stockpiled to launch endlessly just as it is now
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 01:05   #28
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

I adamantly think cluster ETAs should be taken away next round. And for obvious aforementioned reasons.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 02:58   #29
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyVince
Maybe not very common, but my gal this round has a nice cluster ally, and I must say last 2 rounds equally. Defence *was* sent in cluster, and it was then just not a NAP.

Why not remove the cluster attack eta bonus, but keep the -2 bonus on cluster defence?

Makhil.
i'm with this guy. this round, c19 has been pretty solid with nearly no attacks in cluster, and pretty reliable on defense. the last couple rounds though, in cluster attacks kept the galaxies i was in thriving. i'm all for keeping the defense bonus (makes big def ships more useful - tycs for instance) but getting rid of the attack bonuses, or even making in cluster attacks +1 to even more discourage it.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 03:08   #30
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Your eta to a planet should be the sum of the difference between each coordinate part!

Joking :P

Remove cluster attack bonus at least. Maybe change the cluster def bonus to only apply to allies.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 03:11   #31
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Remove them. It's an alliance based game, and cluster times/naps are no more than annoying distractions.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 03:52   #32
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

I think both the cluster and alliance eta bonus' should be scrapped. It makes no sense an alliance mate can come from the other side of the universe in the same time as someone in my cluster. At least in cluster it could be argued they are nearer?! The trouble with in cluster is the farming. Even the floor for everyone (allied and non-allied) and make it fair for everyone.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 06:35   #33
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

As said earlier in many replies :-

Take away the in cluster attack eta bonus and leave the defence eta bonus
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 08:25   #34
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Remove them or at least as others have said, removed the bonus to the cluster attack eta.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 13:27   #35
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbie2
I'd rather have no clusters and all Universe eta's reduced by 1. That could speed the game up a bit. More action, less waiting.
Less sleep, more waking up to destroyed fleets and no roids, etc........



[Edit] Although I've just realised (having read a few more posts) that this would only take us back to where we were previously. Still, I think we should consider leaving universe travel times as they are now - it takes a bit of the pressure off active planets who are stuck in inactive galaxies).
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 13:59   #36
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Remove em, i like the idea of bringing back 25 planet gals with possibility to attack ingal
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 14:20   #37
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

The cluster ETA advantage has given me nothing but fun, even when it's been fun caused by low ETA incoming.

I agree with the statement earlier in this thread that the galaxy and cluster setup don't really take full advantage of the cluster ETA bonus.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 14:55   #38
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

The cluster eta -1 MUST be retained.
The only thing making me even consider playing round 23 is the hope I will wind up in the same cluster as the ****ing ***holes that are in my current cluster, so that I can spend the round launching, recalling and generally making them wish they hadn't signed up.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 17:20   #39
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Cluster alliances nearly always fall apart. I had a bunch of jackasses in my original cluster (14, I think?) who refused to shed their fakenicks, which in turn made me reluctant to trust them.

If you want to make cluster alliances work, you have to give the playerbase (who, on the whole, are retarded) an INCENTIVE. The simplest incentive I can find is to give yet another rankings page for Cluster, alongside the Planet/Galaxy/Alliance setup we have at the moment.

Either that, or ditch it.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 17:37   #40
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

oh, and while i remember, the whole option to launch a fake attack/defence is the single most anoying thing i have ever come across... if you want to be good you should have to work for it, this includes having to recall manually rather than sending out half arsed fake attacks
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 17:55   #41
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
Don't remove cluster defence ETA bonuses. Leave c defence bonus, remove the c attack bonus, bring back the final ETA research. Then you've effectivly removed the need for cluster NAPs, while maintaining the possibility of cluster alliance/cooperation between galaxies that's profitable.
-NitinA
Completly agree with this post.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 18:06   #42
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

basicly 11 hours to send a fleet in the universe is to long time.. it takes one complete day to do one attack with CR/BS ?

it`s bullocks
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 19:45   #43
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

As said before, remove the attack bonus.
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Unread 6 Aug 2007, 20:24   #44
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Cluster alliances nearly always fall apart. I had a bunch of jackasses in my original cluster (14, I think?) who refused to shed their fakenicks, which in turn made me reluctant to trust them.

If you want to make cluster alliances work, you have to give the playerbase (who, on the whole, are retarded) an INCENTIVE. The simplest incentive I can find is to give yet another rankings page for Cluster, alongside the Planet/Galaxy/Alliance setup we have at the moment.

Either that, or ditch it.
Oh god how nasty of people not to stop fakenicking! Send them to prison! ASAP!

Some of us managed to cooperate quite well (my gal and two others). Sadly the rest didnt know how to play the game.

And sorry for roiding you, TK.
I didnt know you would whine
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 12:15   #45
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Wow. It only took 3 rounds for people to realize what a few old timers knew would happen.
I guess it's human nature to forget why some things like cluster etas were removed so long ago. If enough time passes you end up thinking, 'why not bring them back?'
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 13:05   #46
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Remove ships altogether. The winner of the round should be the person who inits the most roids.
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 13:47   #47
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
And sorry for roiding you, TK.
I didnt know you would whine
I didn't care that much about being roided - I haven't been able to put much effort into this round. Still, checking out the cluster-channel for c14 (and the various arrangements in place) proved how pointlessly stupid the cluster NAPs etc are.

For instance, Seaton (fakenick, which he readily admitted to) never did reveal his true nickname because his alliance apparently had told him he'd be kicked out if he did so (that's Vengeance, by the way). He took all of our intel out (from every planet/gal who wanted to be in the nap) and our nicknames, and added us to the channel. He never did release this intel he'd gathered to the rest of us though, even after promising to do so. Now you might say that was deviously clever of him, but it was just annoying really and was one of the reasons I decided to break the NAP.

That's why cluster naps are inherently flawed. People aren't mature enough yet to trust each other and realise that most alliances don't bother with spies anymore.
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 13:54   #48
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
(that's Vengeance, by the way)
I never fake nicked, nor got kicked because of that! (to be continued)
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 14:17   #49
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Oh dear Tomkat. "Seaton" is not very bright, and got his gal close to beeing roided. He is VGN HC, but I forgot his nick.

The real, working cluster nap in c14 is between a few gals, and "Seatons" galaxy isnt in it. Couse he is to shit to realise the potential of such a cluster alliance. He probably doesnt even know how do proper old skool cluster politics.
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Unread 7 Aug 2007, 15:43   #50
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Re: R23: Cluster ETAs

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyVince
Why not remove the cluster attack eta bonus, but keep the -2 bonus on cluster defence?
Quote:
Originally Posted by toivo
As said before, remove the attack bonus.
Why not introduce some more completely illogical stuff.


Im pro-removing.
To me, that cluster-stuff always has this stench of an unbeloved, boring, slaggy, mandatory commitment for everybody.
The real commitment and team-orientation is towards alliances in most cases. The cluster-"ally" competes - and loses.
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