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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 08:58   #101
Kjeldoran
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Re: A request to angels HC

Elviz dude ...

I asked you each round to join Angels and now you do it when I quit playing ???

Anyway, what's the big fuzz about? Elviz is like Chika, and which alliance hasn't recruited Chika yet? It's all a big fuzz about nothing new really.

rgds Kj

P.S. No, this isn't my account being hacked ... it's the real deal !!!

P.P.S. ang Pig aswell ... omg ... asmuch I used to want to, but no ... I'm not gonna come back and play
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Last edited by Kjeldoran; 9 Oct 2006 at 09:09.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 09:14   #102
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Re: A request to angels HC

From what I read so far players like Elviz or Chika are like these asteroids with special powers: not really needed, but nice to have.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 09:19   #103
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEFF|pm
From what I read so far players like Elviz or Chika are like these asteroids with special powers: not really needed, but nice to have.
Hey LEFF, nice to hear/read from you again

Maybe I should install mIRC again to bug you again

rgds Kj
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 09:22   #104
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by LEFF|pm
From what I read so far players like Elviz or Chika are like these asteroids with special powers: not really needed, but nice to have.
And if you have one of those you are likely to get an extra amount of incoming
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 09:32   #105
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Re: A request to angels HC

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Originally Posted by Heartless
And if you have one of those you are likely to get an extra amount of incoming
I just checked the PA-Wiki and found some rankings for the "longest golden roid" holding times.

Maybe we could have these rankings for players, too ?

Like "the longest golden Alliancehopper holding time"
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 10:42   #106
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
Oh i got it sid, I just dont agree that accepting planet naps whilst rejecting the same action for your own members is an acceptable way to act.
I find this an interesting point of view.

ND were never as terrifying a prospect as 1up, so we didn't have the ability to mass planetNAP the opposition. However, I considered it a perfectly reasonable tactic and used it. And I made it perfectly clear that I would kick anyone we proved had a planetNAP.

Personally, the boundary of what is acceptable is that you do not do anything that is cheating or anything that is going to ruin the game. Within this framework I would work for the benefit and enjoyment of my alliance. planetNAPing the enemy is letting down your friends and allies, and is perfectly worth removal from the alliance IMO, in the same way as refusing to defend or attack with the alliance. PlanetNAPing enemy planets reduces your amount of incoming and so is good for your alliance. If the other alliance HC can't prove or only put up with that, then it's their own damned fault as far as I'm concerned.

Given that I do not know where your boundaries of what is acceptable lie, how do you feel about the following:

- Attacking alliances that're in your way, even if they haven't attacked you first? Is the fact that you target an enemy alliance without being hit with full force unacceptable? What if the other alliance is stronger than you, and you attack them with someone else, and they retaliate against the 'someone else' rather than you?
- Allying or NAPing other alliances in order to improve your chance of winning. Do you have to wait for another alliance to do it first in order to prevent yourself from being hypocritical?
- Having spies in other alliances. Is it hypocritical to kick people in your own alliance you find spying whilst you have spies in other alliances? Or if you do, do you have to accept that people in your alliance will be spies and let them gather as much info on your alliance as your spies are gathering on the other alliance?
- Organising fleetcatches on members of other alliances and not organising fleetcatches on members of your own alliances. Is this also hypocritical?
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 10:44   #107
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Elviz is like Chika, and which alliance hasn't recruited Chika yet? It's all a big fuzz about nothing new really.
How is having elviz like having chika?
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 11:03   #108
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
How is having elviz like having chika?
Pple accuse Elviz as an alliance hopper, as a player who looks out for his own planet only, for someone who uses his alliance and others for his gain.

If you claim this to be true, then Elviz is like Chika as that is what Chika did for rounds and rounds.

Plain and simple really, it surprises me that you couldn't figure this out on your own.

And chika/elviz, you both know that I appreciate you, regardless of your playing styles.

rgds Kj
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 11:08   #109
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Re: A request to angels HC

erm. Anyone who played with me can vouch that I never played solely for my planet. i bussed my ass DC/BC when I had the time. Elvis on the other hand has been for himself and his gal ever since his first glass of milk with no nipple.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 11:18   #110
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
erm. Anyone who played with me can vouch that I never played solely for my planet. i bussed my ass DC/BC when I had the time. Elvis on the other hand has been for himself and his gal ever since his first glass of milk with no nipple.
I played a few rounds with you though. Yes you did DC/BC. But yes, you jumped alliance whenever it would suit your planet best.
I don't get the fuzz about Elviz, as if he's the first and only player showing such behavior? ... Let's not be too naļve shall we?
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 11:30   #111
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Re: A request to angels HC

[quote=Gate]I find this an interesting point of view.



Personally, the boundary of what is acceptable is that you do not do anything that is cheating or anything that is going to ruin the game. Within this framework I would work for the benefit and enjoyment of my alliance. planetNAPing the enemy is letting down your friends and allies, and is perfectly worth removal from the alliance IMO, in the same way as refusing to defend or attack with the alliance. PlanetNAPing enemy planets reduces your amount of incoming and so is good for your alliance. If the other alliance HC can't prove or only put up with that, then it's their own damned fault as far as I'm concerned.

I dont totally agree with this Gatesky , maybe a bit (a tiny tiny bit) perhaps. For example: If Alliance A & B are in war and a member of alliance A gets a planet nap with alliance B, it doesent mean that the incomings of alliance A is reducing. In contrary, the amount of incomings stays the same, alliance B just attacked another planet of alliance A. Fact is that the firepower of alliance A is reducing in this war and is an easier target for alliance B cuz most of the planets who gets a planetnap are most of the time bigger value/score planets with a bigger fleet. So imo there are no profits for an alliance to work with planetnaps (in this case), the only one who profits is the planet itself.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 11:51   #112
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Re: A request to angels HC

er i think you've got something mixed up there

say alliance a has 60 members and is at war with alliance b

5 members of alliance a naps alliance b. now only 55 planets provide incoming to alliance b. meaning alliance b gets less incoming and allowing them to hurt the 55 active and truly hostile members of alliance a.

do you see why alliance b gets a nice advantage now?

sure those 5 planets may profit.. but they'll lose a shitload of respect for be so awful and i think by now most people are finally realising the value (or lack thereof) of planet(and gal) ranks (as opposed to alliance)
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 13:00   #113
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Re: A request to angels HC

but then its still 55 vs 55 isnt it, in theory. In reality what happened was alliances got flak to hit the planets that were napped to them, but also you have to take into account the size of the planets napped, 5 large members it makes a difference, 5 small members it makes shit all difference. And yes i do understand the benefit of it, it is a very good and valid tactic.

p.s. judge your an idiot, i cannot believe how serious you take this shit
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 13:31   #114
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
er i think you've got something mixed up there

say alliance a has 60 members and is at war with alliance b

5 members of alliance a naps alliance b. now only 55 planets provide incoming to alliance b. meaning alliance b gets less incoming and allowing them to hurt the 55 active and truly hostile members of alliance a.

do you see why alliance b gets a nice advantage now?

sure those 5 planets may profit.. but they'll lose a shitload of respect for be so awful and i think by now most people are finally realising the value (or lack thereof) of planet(and gal) ranks (as opposed to alliance)
For alliance B its a profit yes, but for alliance a its not...and thats what i tried to point out. 60 active members of alliance b will now attack 55 members of alliance a instead of 60, so the amount of incomings stays (e.g. more waves). So imo if the HC of alliance A allow their planets to have a planetnap (whatever alliance it is) or acting like they do not know/see it..they should be fired for being dumb @sses and acting like muppets.

Imagine In the worst case scenario all alliances do planetnaps..what a chaos it would be

Not to mention (indeed) about the lost of respect and FairGame.
But yes, its a wargame and in wars u have always Strategic Commanders and dumb @sses...
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 13:45   #115
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
as for my personal opinion of Elviz, not that it matters to anyone but me and elviz... but I've always liked Elviz personally (basing this entirely on my interaction with him over the rounds.) I get why Sid has issues, and he's perfectly within his right to feel the way he does, that's up to no one but him.
if he had approached you this rd would you have accepted his application for newdawn ?
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 14:05   #116
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaVeRiXX
For alliance B its a profit yes, but for alliance a its not...and thats what i tried to point out. 60 active members of alliance b will now attack 55 members of alliance a instead of 60, so the amount of incomings stays (e.g. more waves). So imo if the HC of alliance A allow their planets to have a planetnap (whatever alliance it is) or acting like they do not know/see it..they should be fired for being dumb @sses and acting like muppets.

Imagine In the worst case scenario all alliances do planetnaps..what a chaos it would be

Not to mention (indeed) about the lost of respect and FairGame.
But yes, its a wargame and in wars u have always Strategic Commanders and dumb @sses...
of course it isn't a profit for alliance a.. that's the whole point of it agreed with what you said though
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 14:17   #117
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
I had very strong suspicions - as did plenty of other people - but suspecting and proving are two different things.

All water under the bridge now. But any member of 1up who plays in an alliance with Elviz after his cowardice last round is never gonna be welcome in any alliance I ever run in PA again.
Even crusie's 1up bg currently along with elviz in Angels?
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 14:18   #118
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by gzambo
if he had approached you this rd would you have accepted his application for newdawn ?
I would have accessed it and responded to questions as I stated I would, if asked, I'd say he is a hell of a player, he runs an effective Battle Group, he puts a lot of effort into his BG such as sitting there for hours sorting targets for everyone, and yes, he p-nap'd the enemy which led to his removal from 1up.... As I can only speak intelligently about things I know to be true....The decision would then be up to the ND HC
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 14:20   #119
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by aNgRyDuCk
I would have accessed it and responded to questions as I stated I would, if asked, I'd say he is a hell of a player, he runs an effective Battle Group, he puts a lot of effort into his BG such as sitting there for hours sorting targets for everyone, and yes, he p-nap'd the enemy which led to his removal from 1up....
I didn't think it was the P-nap that lead to his removal. If it would have been so, he would probably have already been removed during the quick (if so) Insomnia/1up against Omen war r17.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 14:24   #120
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
I didn't think it was the P-nap that lead to his removal. If it would have been so, he would probably have already been removed during the quick (if so) Insomnia/1up against Omen war r17.
As I said, I didn't ask Sid for details and I wasn't as active last round as I normally am, so can only speak of that which I know about
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 15:16   #121
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
erm. Anyone who played with me can vouch that I never played solely for my planet. i bussed my ass DC/BC when I had the time. Elvis on the other hand has been for himself and his gal ever since his first glass of milk with no nipple.

I think the biggest problem with you was that you were a giant dickhead on irc and most people didnt agree with your point of views. In fact you were a basis of comparsion whenever someone was being annoying (ie. Xelnaga).
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 15:30   #122
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
Even crusie's 1up bg currently along with elviz in Angels?
Please tell me that's not true. I guess i have to spank Alki if he let this happen.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 15:34   #123
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
I didn't think it was the P-nap that lead to his removal. If it would have been so, he would probably have already been removed during the quick (if so) Insomnia/1up against Omen war r17.
Thats exactly why we removed elviz.

As per Sids original statement: elviz wasn't removed for the planet with omen due to being told P-Naps were acceptable while 1up were running without arranged defence but were never explicitly ordered to be broken when the 'war' started.

You may say that we should be able to assume that these naps would be broken out of common sense when we went to war but we decided that by not ordering it then the shortcomings were our own.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 15:48   #124
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gio2k
Please tell me that's not true. I guess i have to spank Alki if he let this happen.
it is true, but why do you want to spank Alki for that, i doubt he is playing for Angels this round.
Pretty curious if Sid will hold his word and never let those ppl play in one of his allies again, coz there are some names in that BG that i always considered as core 1uppers.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 16:13   #125
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Re: A request to angels HC

ok

Firstly, Elvis.

I have played against and alongisde Elvis. Whilst I cannot condone his actions, and I admit I am sorely dissapointed, saying he doest help an alliance is pure crap.
He busts a gut within his AG, sorting attacks, and puts a hell of a lot of firepower down on his targets.
He may not help twat the enemy, and therfor hinder the alliance, but he is not lazy.

And on thoughts towards him. I guess its a bit like me and Valle.
I like valle, and we sit in rooms together. We play poker alongside each other. The guy rocks.
That said, within PA he backstabbed me, something i will never forget. I will never trust him again in pa, and should I ever get another planet and play serious, he will be one of the first guys who I twat back Round 1.

PA and RL are two different things, and people really shouldnt take it so seriously.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 16:14   #126
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaVeRiXX
I dont totally agree with this Gatesky , maybe a bit (a tiny tiny bit) perhaps. For example: If Alliance A & B are in war and a member of alliance A gets a planet nap with alliance B, it doesent mean that the incomings of alliance A is reducing. In contrary, the amount of incomings stays the same, alliance B just attacked another planet of alliance A. Fact is that the firepower of alliance A is reducing in this war and is an easier target for alliance B cuz most of the planets who gets a planetnap are most of the time bigger value/score planets with a bigger fleet. So imo there are no profits for an alliance to work with planetnaps (in this case), the only one who profits is the planet itself.
Sorry Mave, not too sure we're on the same page over this...

I was saying that if an alliance gave a planetNAP to a planet from another alliance, that it would reduce their incomings. That planet would not attack them any more.

Generally speaking, planetNAPers are generally selfish bastards who are active enough and big enough to believe they can get a good rank. This means that you will not have a big fleet attacking you every night and sapping up defence. In a war situation, having one less fleet incoming can mean one tick less of roids (as once ally/galdef are sapped up by enough attack waves, most further attacks will land and potentially capture an impressive number of roids).

In the case of alliance A NAPing a planet from alliance B, the advantage generally lies with alliance A and the planet from alliance B, and the disadvantage with alliance B*. I can think of a handful of cases where planetNAPing is justified, although most of these are temporarily so.

Were we thinking of the same thing? :/


*however, alliances without people pulling their weight and allowing planetNAPs are unlikely to be successful in war, get destroyed, and then the original spineless **** might get a well deserved twatting.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 16:34   #127
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Sorry Mave, not too sure we're on the same page over this...

Were we thinking of the same thing? :/


*however, alliances without people pulling their weight and allowing planetNAPs are unlikely to be successful in war, get destroyed, and then the original spineless **** might get a well deserved twatting.
I think so lol

Anyways, wtf are you gatesky? Quite your study and get ur @ss back! Now i had to check stats preround myself, i blame you for that! :crymeariver:
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 16:52   #128
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid
Just in case anyone hasn't figured it out I think he's useless scum. Wouldn't want anyone to misunderstand my stance.
I am ok in your book?
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 17:01   #129
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Re: A request to angels HC

i like elviz and killmark

im so uncool, i need to follow the crowd and start hating people :\
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 17:25   #130
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
because he screwed over 1up, the r12 thing HELPED 1up you see
Recruiting him the round after he got a planet nap with his alliance's opponent during a war doesn't seem to be very smart, it just shows that he'll do it again...
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 17:37   #131
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Re: A request to angels HC

r11 1up
r12 lch but pnapped to 1up
r13 1up

please think about the above facts and see if you get what i'm very, very subtly hinting at elviz and 1up's deal during r12
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 18:10   #132
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Re: A request to angels HC

nice way angels thread turned into 1up planetnaps thread. :s

back on topic, heard some rumour angels on recruitingspree and already making block (with 1alliance thats been around along time and always plays the safe way and never won, and other ally with other 1up ppl that are not in angels).

did 1up hijack angels?

pls no flaming just interested.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 18:18   #133
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Re: A request to angels HC

I heard a rumour eXilition are playing for the win, with two bgs and shit!

Only a rumour though.

Are eXilition actually going for a back to back win like we all predicted?

pls no flaming just interested.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 18:20   #134
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Re: A request to angels HC

why are u bringing exi in an angels thread pig?

coz if that was meant to a reply to me , im not in exi but i think you prolly made that post because you are idd a wittle bit paranoid and clueless

oh and i forgot to add, your crusade against exilition became boring rounds ago... how about a new hobby?!
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I signed up to make sure eX didnt win the round, thanks to your HCs last decision it looks like I succeeded
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 18:23   #135
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
I have played against and alongisde Elvis. Whilst I cannot condone his actions, and I admit I am sorely dissapointed, saying he doest help an alliance is pure crap.
He busts a gut within his AG, sorting attacks, and puts a hell of a lot of firepower down on his targets.
Yeah but when you're prepicking/assigning targets and getting you and your mates the best ones, with the rest of the AG getting the dregs to fill up the flak, it's kind of an incentive to "bust a gut", isn't it...?
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 18:36   #136
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Re: A request to angels HC

and suddenly you just made me lose interest again. why!!!!

and its even that u made that thread that all the ppl with green dots scare poor others away, like u just did to me!

or maybe i should just wait for some1 from Angels to comment on what i said, and not some eternal freedomfighter against evul exi :|
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I signed up to make sure eX didnt win the round, thanks to your HCs last decision it looks like I succeeded
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 18:50   #137
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Yeah but when you're prepicking/assigning targets and getting you and your mates the best ones, with the rest of the AG getting the dregs to fill up the flak, it's kind of an incentive to "bust a gut", isn't it...?
I was wondering if someone was going to bring this up.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 18:56   #138
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxMilliaN
why!!!!
Please stop making a mockery of the English language a question mark ("?") usually follows the word "why" when used at the end of a sentence.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 19:04   #139
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxMilliaN
and suddenly you just made me lose interest again. why!!!!
I am sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxMilliaN
and its even that u made that thread that all the ppl with green dots scare poor others away, like u just did to me!
I'm sorry are you a new poster? Do you conside yourself a newbie? For the record I pos repped you the other day, im engaging in conversation (banter some may call it) I'm not scaring nobody away, least of all someone like yourself max.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxMilliaN
or maybe i should just wait for some1 from Angels to comment on what i said, and not some eternal freedomfighter against evul exi :|
Yes, yes maybe you should.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 19:17   #140
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Re: A request to angels HC

For the record I have never made a nevative comment in regard to Elviz, my comments in regard to him were in relation to his actions of planet Nap'n and the consequential result of that, whilst 1up HC (sid) was quite happy to accept planet naps from others.

Dont go over this again it has been done to death and tbh, I accept the logic of Sid's post(s) whist I dont agree with the ethics of it, a whole other debate.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 19:24   #141
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
Please stop making a mockery of the English language a question mark ("?") usually follows the word "why" when used at the end of a sentence.
no

please stop wanking on perfect english language, i dont care.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 20:01   #142
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Re: A request to angels HC

Agreeing with Max here. This thread has nothing to with eXilition. Don't bring them into it.

Also thinking elviz must be lolling at all us saddos discussing him on an internet forum
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 20:08   #143
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Re: A request to angels HC

I guess you and Max are right, I just have issues.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 20:09   #144
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
I heard a rumour eXilition are playing for the win, with two bgs and shit!

Only a rumour though.
I think you're refering to Angels with gosu BG of mercs and the 1up BG of mercs. Otherwise, that's news to me @_@ How's Angels treating you by the way?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Are eXilition actually going for a back to back win like we all predicted?

pls no flaming just interested.
Like, *you* predicted, in over 5 seperate posts! Sure, there are a few *other* people, but none to the extent you did! And to answer your question: no. I'm sure you won't beleive me now, or for a good portion of this round. But I do expect a full apology at the end of the round, for continually propagating propaganda--of course my post may be considered propaganda now too (But as I said, you can keep it in your head for the round, then apologize later.

I've actually seen you called 'propaganda pig' in 2 public channels in the last 3 days. I laughed the first time I saw it in #public since I had just finish reading your 'OMG eX will WIN!' post in Judge's deleted thread, do you happen to know where that nickname origionated? It's either from some sort of private channel, or alliance, I suppose--as I saw it refered to twice in seperate conversations/channels @_@

Anyway, I hope everyone who plays has a good round.

-NitinA
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 20:17   #145
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Re: A request to angels HC

i don't think any exi really need to bother replying to pig now, he's made himself look over the top enough to lose a reasonable amount of credibility, but like he says; it's all just a bit of fun!
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 20:18   #146
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
But I do expect a full apology at the end of the round, for continually propagating propaganda
A full apology will be coming to yourself, eXilition and AD if that happens. If it does then I will be more than happy to apologise as eXilition won't of won the round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
I've actually seen you called 'propaganda pig' in 2 public channels in the last 3 days.
I am pleased people have given me a nickname. It's quite humbling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
I laughed the first time I saw it in #public
I just laughed as well. It's a rather cute nickname.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
do you happen to know where that nickname origionated?
I have no idea, although I am sure someone from this great community will tell us along the line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
Anyway, I hope everyone who plays has a good round.
Likewise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitina
-NitinA
I like how you do that, it adds the personal touch (this isn't sarcasm by the way).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
but like he says; it's all just a bit of fun!
Just some banter!
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 21:00   #147
Forest
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
Yeah but when you're prepicking/assigning targets and getting you and your mates the best ones, with the rest of the AG getting the dregs to fill up the flak, it's kind of an incentive to "bust a gut", isn't it...?
In the times I shared with Elviz, I can assure you that never happened, and that he took his fair share of shit targets.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 21:04   #148
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Re: A request to angels HC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
In the times I shared with Elviz, I can assure you that never happened, and that he took his fair share of shit targets.
well you havent been around for a few rounds now have you?
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Round 1-6: ND, Xanadu(RedBull)
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 21:56   #149
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Re: A request to angels HC

Wrong again.
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Unread 9 Oct 2006, 21:58   #150
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Re: A request to angels HC

i think you know what he means forest.
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