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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 18:04   #1
JonnyBGood
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Do you believe him?

Saddam Hussein claims to have been tortured. This is an interesting one, as much as I believe saddam hussein to be capable of making something like that up would anyone really be surprised if the story turned out to be true? Maybe not systematically organised torture ordered by George Bush but certainly something which people were aware of and did very little to stop. It's hardly like the track record of the US occupying forces in Iraq has been spotless.
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 18:04   #2
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Re: Do you believe him?

i think he'll say any old bollocks just to make the americans look bad, true or otherwise.
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 18:06   #3
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Re: Do you believe him?

in the one hand i find it unlikely to be true, as it's hard to believe that the americans would be *that* stupid.
on the other hand, it shouldn't be that hard to check as to whether sadam's been beaten up recently, and it would seem equally stupid to loose face by lying blatantly, when at least some accounts seem to suggest that he's been making a fairly decent account of himself given the circumstances.

as such, it rather devolves in to a "who do i think is more stupid", and that can only really go one way :/
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 18:07   #4
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Re: Do you believe him?

It will depend on Saddam's definition of torture, and how that compares to the Americans' and then to our own personal beliefs.

As we know, the Americans consider 'water-boarding' acceptable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia definition of water-boarding
The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt. According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in. They said al Qaeda's toughest prisoner, Khalid Sheik Mohammed, won the admiration of interrogators when he was able to last between two and two-and-a-half minutes before begging to confess. 'The person believes they[sic] are being killed, and as such, it really amounts to a mock execution, which is illegal under international law,' said John Sifton of Human Rights Watch."
Personally I find that on a par with the rack.
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 18:10   #5
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Re: Do you believe him?

that does sound suspiciously like torture. did they have any justification for it not being?
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 18:10   #6
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Re: Do you believe him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
i think he'll say any old bollocks just to make the americans look bad, true or otherwise.
As I said I quite agree. However do you think it's actually true?



PS I would define that as torture furball. We could probably use the definition given by the UN or the Red Cross if you want something specific.
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 18:15   #7
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Re: Do you believe him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
PS I would define that as torture furball. We could probably use the definition given by the UN or the Red Cross if you want something specific.
I did say that I considered that an extreme form of torture. I was merely pointing out that the American authorities do not.

I expect that Saddam is equivocating, and when asked to prove his claims he will come up with something which is less than the standards he had when he was in power - e.g. no gold taps.
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 18:24   #8
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Re: Do you believe him?

If he wasnt, so what?

If he was, so what?
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 18:26   #9
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Re: Do you believe him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
If he wasnt, so what?

If he was, so what?
I'm going to go out on a very tenuous limb here and say that torture might be considered unjustifiable by some people.
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 18:27   #10
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Re: Do you believe him?

True or not, it'll certainly help to frustrate and slow down his trial and turn it into even more of a farce.
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 19:22   #11
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Re: Do you believe him?

i wouldnt trust the americans to look after my dog, never mind a villainous goldstein like saddam.

Of course he was tortured.
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 19:24   #12
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Re: Do you believe him?

Ignoring any possible moral scruples on any side I'd imagine the Americans would issue pretty strong orders when it comes to the treatment of very high profile prisoners like this.

Also, outside of nastiness, why would they bother torturing him? Do they think he's going to finally show them some mass bunker full of WMDs?
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 19:37   #13
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Re: Do you believe him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Ignoring any possible moral scruples on any side I'd imagine the Americans would issue pretty strong orders when it comes to the treatment of very high profile prisoners like this.
Why bother, who'd believe him anyways?

Quote:
Also, outside of nastiness, why would they bother torturing him? Do they think he's going to finally show them some mass bunker full of WMDs?
Well, yeah. I'd imagine he knows a few other things that might help them as well.
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 20:03   #14
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Re: Do you believe him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Why bother, who'd believe him anyways?
there are quite a lot of people willing to believe the worst about america. some of them, i'd imagine
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 20:28   #15
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Re: Do you believe him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Why bother, who'd believe him anyways?

The French.
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 20:32   #16
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Re: Do you believe him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
there are quite a lot of people willing to believe the worst about america. some of them, i'd imagine
This is the week where george bush got defensive and angry that he had been spying on american citizens. Anything less than outright pessimism when it comes to America is pure folly
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 20:37   #17
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Re: Do you believe him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Why bother, who'd believe him anyways?
I'm going to go out on a very tenuous limb here and say some people.
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 20:38   #18
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Re: Do you believe him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
there are quite a lot of people willing to believe the worst about america. some of them, i'd imagine
Ah but if he's going to lie anyways why not torture him?
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 20:45   #19
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Re: Do you believe him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Ah but if he's going to lie anyways why not torture him?
because you're allready on the defensive about torturing people in europe, and someone catching you doing it to sadam would make you look really stupid / even more stupid than usual.
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 20:48   #20
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Re: Do you believe him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
because you're allready on the defensive about torturing people in europe, and someone catching you doing it to sadam would make you look really stupid / even more stupid than usual.
So, as long as you're sure nobody's going to have evidence it'd be okay to do it?
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 20:57   #21
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Re: Do you believe him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
So, as long as you're sure nobody's going to have evidence it'd be okay to do it?
we're talking about what george would do, right?
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 21:03   #22
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Re: Do you believe him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
So, as long as you're sure nobody's going to have evidence it'd be okay to do it?
As long nobody can prove you've committed murder, is it okay?

On a sidenote, I'd say that a man such as Saddam deserves nothing less then a life of forced hard labour. Torture is bad though.
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Unread 21 Dec 2005, 21:13   #23
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Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
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JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.JonnyBGood has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Do you believe him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by flapjack
As long nobody can prove you've committed murder, is it okay?
I'm speaking from an amoral perspective here. If your only worry is being caught, as mist implied, would you not do it when you were sure you would not be caught?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mist
we're talking about what george would do, right?
Not necessarily, as I said above.
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