Planetarion Forums

Leshy · 11 Jul 2003, 13:02

Quote:

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
--Hermann Göring, at the Nuremburg Trials

I was just reading up on some stuff about WW2 in the Wikipedia Encyclopedia, when I came across this quote from Hermann Göring. Scarily enough, it reminded me immediately of the situation in the USA, especially that last passage.

After September 11th, the trend in the USA indeed seems to be to denounce anyone not in agreement with the government to be unpatriotic, and not a true American. Any foreign country not in agreement is given the cold shoulder, or made cheap propaganda against ("Freedom Fries", anyone?). National security levels were raised several times, and the Patriot Acts were pushed through to strengthen the notion of attacks upon the USA.

Was Hermann Göring indeed right?

queball · 11 Jul 2003, 13:05

old

MrL_JaKiri · 11 Jul 2003, 13:05

COMEDY DUTCHMAN, COMEDY DUTCHMAN

Oh yes, of course he was.

Mushroom · 11 Jul 2003, 13:07

That's quite scary since it's exactly what the US (and on a smaller scale, the UK) is doing.
But i guess like he said, it's just manipulation of the people and doesn't tie in with any one particular political belief...
I mean, it's not like Bush is going to build places where muslims can be held and executed without trial is it?

ComradeRob · 11 Jul 2003, 13:16

It's the same thing the Romans did 2000 years ago, it's hardly a new idea :\

Vaio · 11 Jul 2003, 13:18

Wasn't Goering a drug taking transvestite ?

Not that i am suggesting anything

Vaio

queball · 11 Jul 2003, 13:18

Quote:

Originally posted by ComradeRob
It's the same thing the Romans did 2000 years ago, it's hardly a new idea :\

That's what I said.

Monkehpimp · 11 Jul 2003, 13:19

someone mentioned that on here when the war was actually happening.

but yes its very much like the US.

Leshy · 11 Jul 2003, 13:24

Quote:

Originally posted by ComradeRob
It's the same thing the Romans did 2000 years ago, it's hardly a new idea :\

True. But still, when some German politician said that Bush was using the same methods as Hitler, she received a whole lot of crap about it.

It just surprised me that upon reading things that Hitler's right hand man said, I immediately thought of the USA. A bit worrying.

Mushroom · 11 Jul 2003, 13:28

all sorts of parallels. But if you mention them in public, you'd have them thrown back in your face...
We all know it's going on, yet nothing can be said.
As is the nature of democracy and free speech...

Tzencath · 11 Jul 2003, 15:43

i say we take over america again, and show them who's the loser in the world.

acropolis · 11 Jul 2003, 16:14

did he write a book at all? He sounds worth reading.

JonnyBGood · 11 Jul 2003, 18:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Tzencath
i say we take over america again, and show them who's the loser in the world.

I say we wait for civilisation to collapse so I can get a good laugh out of it all. Maybe the next pre-eminent culture will manage to surpass tribalism. I doubt it though.

Dante Hicks · 11 Jul 2003, 18:34

While I'm sure there are parallels between any government (in particular nationalist state-worshipping governments) and the NAZI regimes, I generally find any direct comparisons to be more unhelpful than anything else.

As soon as you compare anything to Hiter, people's eyes tend to glaze over.

queball · 11 Jul 2003, 19:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
While I'm sure there are parallels between any government (in particular nationalist state-worshipping governments) and the NAZI regimes, I generally find any direct comparisons to be more unhelpful than anything else.

As soon as you compare anything to Hiter, people's eyes tend to glaze over.

Particularly analogies that don't suggest or recommend anything, with conspiracy-theory overtones. I mean, if the main charge is that the media "tell them [the American public] they are being attacked", when a handful of planes were flying into American buildings, does that indicate some great similarity to the Nazis? No. In conclusion, Leshy was the lemonparty photographer.

wu_trax · 11 Jul 2003, 19:20

but other than the media / informations from white house suggested, the iraq had nothing at all to do with this.
therefore mentioning that quote is not that wrong, although it prevents all further discussion.

Leshy · 11 Jul 2003, 19:55

Quote:

Originally posted by queball
when a handful of planes were flying into American buildings

I'm talking after-september 11th.

The several raisings of national security levels, the "leaked" reports that more terrorist attacks were expected, the Patriot Acts. And of course the whole "If you're not with us, you're against us" attitude that has been bred.

And if people don't want to discuss something because Hitler is somehow involved, that's their own short-sightedness preventing any form of debate.

Kurashima · 11 Jul 2003, 19:57

Quote:

Originally posted by Vaio
Wasn't Goering a drug taking transvestite ?

Not that i am suggesting anything

Vaio

Bearing in Mind that during WW2 , Churchill was being prescribed Neat-Cocaine in tablet form, i doubt we can cast aspersions over old Herman.

cnaw · 11 Jul 2003, 20:03

QUOTE stealer!!!!!!! ;-) Anyways, i don't know people list it as said during the Nuremberg trials. He never said it during the trial. "His comments were made privately to Gustave Gilbert, a German-speaking intelligence officer and psychologist who was granted free access by the Allies to all the prisoners held in the Nuremberg jail."

Phang · 11 Jul 2003, 20:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Kurashima
Bearing in Mind that during WW2 , Churchill was being prescribed Neat-Cocaine in tablet form, i doubt we can cast aspersions over old Herman.

that said - Churchill was not exactly a nice guy. He was just OUR not-a-nice-guy.

Kumnaa · 11 Jul 2003, 20:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Phang
that said - Churchill was not exactly a nice guy. He was just OUR not-a-nice-guy.

and to be fair he wasnt aiding in killing jews, cripples and nignogs or whatever

queball · 11 Jul 2003, 20:40

Quote:

Originally posted by Leshy
I'm talking after-september 11th.

The several raisings of national security levels, the "leaked" reports that more terrorist attacks were expected, the Patriot Acts.

So you estimate less of a threat than they estimate, is that it? Hardly surprising given that you're the other side of the world. And the Patriot Act doesn't even bring police power to the same level as in some European countries that experience terrorism (eg the UK). What do you want their government to do, ignore the problem? Whether the changes are right or wrong is important. Whether the changes are helped along by patriotism is not important.

Quote:

And of course the whole "If you're not with us, you're against us" attitude that has been bred.

Bred by whom? Are you implying something?

Quote:

And if people don't want to discuss something because Hitler is somehow involved, that's their own short-sightedness preventing any form of debate.

Discuss what? "It just surprised me that upon reading things that Hitler's right hand man said, I immediately thought of the USA. A bit worrying." Nothing for discussion there.

ComradeRob · 11 Jul 2003, 22:11

Quote:

Originally posted by queball
Whether the changes are right or wrong is important. Whether the changes are helped along by patriotism is not important.

In the case of the Patriot Act, you are correct. The Patriot Act debate is simply the old freedom/security trade-off, and the arguments for both sides can be made without any use of propaganda.

In the case of American foreign military interventions, I disagree with you. The rightness or wrongness of the action (even from a purely American perspective) depends entirely on whether or not the propaganda is correct or not. The case for war on Afghanistan and, to a lesser extent, Iraq has been based on the principle that these 'evil' nations seek to 'take away the freedom of the United States', because of their 'hatred' of freedom etc. If this is true, then American military action is justified as an act of self-defence; if not true then the action is not justified.

Dante Hicks · 12 Jul 2003, 00:05

Quote:

Originally posted by queball
What do you want their government to do, ignore the problem?

Yes.

edit : Or remove some of the causes of terrorism, alternately.

Leshy · 12 Jul 2003, 00:26

Quote:

Originally posted by queball
So you estimate less of a threat than they estimate, is that it?

I estimate less need for any security issues to be made public than the USA does. Then again causing a feeling of unsafety among the population and thereby increasing their patriotism is probably more important than preventing mass hysteria, for example.

Quote:

Bred by whom? Are you implying something?

Bred by the USA Government, who rather undiplomatically name several countries as the world's Axis of Evil thereby creating their own enemies, and by the media who create an anti-France attitude causing the idiotic ban of French articles in several places, and the renaming of 'French Fries' to 'Freedom Fries'. That kind of childish propaganda.

I'm implying that the USA as a whole indoctrinates it's citizens and children in pretty much the same way that fundamentalist countries in the Middle East do.

Quote:

Nothing for discussion there.

It seems to me several other people have already replied with their opinions on the matter, hence creating discussion.

Tactitus · 12 Jul 2003, 01:12

Quote:

Originally posted by Leshy
I estimate less need for any security issues to be made public than the USA does. Then again causing a feeling of unsafety among the population and thereby increasing their patriotism is probably more important than preventing mass hysteria, for example.

Er, what mass hysteria?

Quote:

Bred by the USA Government, who rather undiplomatically name several countries as the world's Axis of Evil thereby creating their own enemies, and by the media who create an anti-France attitude causing the idiotic ban of French articles in several places, and the renaming of 'French Fries' to 'Freedom Fries'. That kind of childish propaganda.

What French articles has the US banned?

Renaming French Fries as Freedom Fries is childish. Calling it propaganda is probably an overstatement. In any event, I certainly don't take it seriously, nor does anyone I know. Why are you taking it seriously?

Quote:

I'm implying that the USA as a whole indoctrinates it's citizens and children in pretty much the same way that fundamentalist countries in the Middle East do.

Now that's what I would call childish propaganda.

queball · 12 Jul 2003, 01:48

Quote:

Originally posted by Leshy
I estimate less need for any security issues to be made public than the USA does. Then again causing a feeling of unsafety among the population and thereby increasing their patriotism is probably more important than preventing mass hysteria, for example.

Better an open government than a closed paternal government. Those officials are largely simple folk, they do their job and report to the press, things get spun and filtered, things mostly turn out ok. If there's a minority who hoard duct tape, so what? There is a real problem and the solution might not be perfect but it's close.

Quote:

Bred by the USA Government, who rather undiplomatically name several countries as the world's Axis of Evil thereby creating their own enemies, and by the media who create an anti-France attitude causing the idiotic ban of French articles in several places, and the renaming of 'French Fries' to 'Freedom Fries'. That kind of childish propaganda.

I'm implying that the USA as a whole indoctrinates it's citizens and children in pretty much the same way that fundamentalist countries in the Middle East do.

The difference being that Americans have free speech, fair trials, etc...

I've heard this sort of argument a few times. Conspiracy X/American culture/Neo-conservatives/GWB is creating an atmosphere not conducive to rational thought! I just don't see any evidence of any serious problem (other than shallow surprises from the popular press about opinion polls or Freedom Fries, which show more about human nature than anything else IMO). Can't you accept that there is largely a different concensus of opinion in America than in France, but people who want to discuss the other side of the coin are still free to do so?

PS. first quote on http://daviddfriedman.com/Miscellane...f_the_week.htm

W · 12 Jul 2003, 01:51

Why do people think this is about conspiracy?

Because it's as close as people can comfortably come to the truth.

Weeks · 12 Jul 2003, 02:02

Not forgetting the 'If you dont go alone with the goverment it means you're un-patrotic!' thing.

Tossers.

People like Michael Moore are far more patrotic for challenging the goverment and trying to make the US a better place to live in.

ParraCida · 12 Jul 2003, 02:13

50 years from now people will look at this like we are looking at the kennedy shooting now.

Mushroom · 12 Jul 2003, 02:27

Quote:

Originally posted by ParraCida
50 years from now people will look at this like we are looking at the kennedy shooting now.

You mean when Bush gets assassinated?