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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:10   #51
Bunga
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

You mean half the DNA required if you reate the human being in the standard way. If you use anohter way, all the required DNA is already there.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:11   #52
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
By that "outside support" definition we all have outside support (food, air, water, heat etc.)
Well no, because they aren't provided by other people.

The doctor cannot just switch off the heart bypass machine because he's tired and wants to go home - the person he is operating on is dependent on him for survival at that point, and he has a legal and moral duty to continue to operate until either the person is well enough for the machine to be switched off or the person dies.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:13   #53
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Thats very simplistic. What if the condition is stable with the machine, yet no amount of operating will make the person well enough to go without the machine?
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:15   #54
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
You mean half the DNA required if you reate the human being in the standard way. If you use anohter way, all the required DNA is already there.
To bad there is missing chromosomes.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:16   #55
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Not if you want a female.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:17   #56
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
Thats very simplistic. What if the condition is stable with the machine, yet no amount of operating will make the person well enough to go without the machine?
In cases like that, when there is no hope of recovery, the doctor can switch off the machine. But that is a medical reason - he isn't just switching it off because he wants to.

This doesn't have any impact on the issue of abortion, however - it's merely a medical question.

The point was to show that at various times, a person can be directly dependent on others, and those others do not have the right to kill that person for no reason.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:17   #57
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Exclamation Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepid00
Also, to settle the aboration argument. I want to catholic school and a rape victim according to the church has the right to go and stop conception by going to the hospital with in 24 hours. After that tuff shit, no need to commit another crime of murder because you where raped.
Typical of catholic schools: they think a 100%-effective method of contraception exists but won't let anyone use it.

If only such a method existed...
Quote:
Happly, I live in the thought that someday the Pro-Lifers will really outpopulate the Pro-Murders because the they will be killing off their supporters. Clearly they have no forsight in tactics.
The Pro-Lifers will have to contend with a world full of unwanted children however. Enjoy your last laugh.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:18   #58
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

One wonders at what point we still feel comfortable with our humanity as we carry out abortions. I believe that up until very recently unpermitted children in China were aborted as they emerged from the womb, ie something is injected into the skull as the baby is crowning. Would we (generic western civilisation term) all feel comfortable with that system? I doubt it, and yet a vast majority (there were cases where doctors refused to carry out this course of action, but then there are doctors with beliefs similar to this everywhere else) did take part in these procedures.

It raises the interesting question of at what point the fetus becomes a human being. Does it become human the moment insemination occurs and the fetus exists and will be born assuming a natural (historically) course of action. However this is only an idea which we believe in through simple association. We see it happen naturally many times and thus conclude that it is the natural process.

It must be noted though that the essential nature of the relationship between mother and fetus is parasitic. The fetus feeds regardless of how much the mother has eaten, depends on her for oxygen, water and all other vital minerals. This is hardly a valid reason for concluding the mother can kill the fetus though. As someone said above could a mother kill a baby abandoned with it on a desert island? That's not exactly similar either though, that baby could exist somewhere, it just happens to be there. Could we say the fetus becomes human when medical science can support it without the mother? Does our morality boil down to our level of technological advancement then? Even then this argument does not encompass all areas, remember the child could exist in another female.

Is it possible to sum it up in terms of "consciousness", a difficult term to define at the best of times. When does the fetus become self-aware? This is perhaps a matter best left to the geneticists, however seeing as they struggle to prove and tie down this at the best of times I feel I could offer a small comment on the issue. People say that the fetus is not really aware, but how do we know? It responds to external stimulus etc. Do we want it to create and build and respond creatively perhaps? I'm unsure about you but I've yet to see a two month old baby which could compose a symphony, regardless of how intelligent he or she became later in life.

Personally, due more to instinctive/developed feelings than reasoned thought processes, I think abortion is morally wrong. Where you are responsible for the life of another can you kill that person? It's the power of life and death really, and the way it is currently being used is not one would I would approve of. Perhaps it's one of those cases where it's "should" more than "have to".
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:19   #59
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
The Pro-Lifers will have to contend with a world full of unwanted children however. Enjoy your last laugh.
I'd rather a world full of unwanted children than a world where murder is acceptable.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:19   #60
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

A world too full of unwanted children, too full to support the "wanted" ones as well.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:19   #61
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Exclamation Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
Why not? This is the essential question.

Because the fetus isn't a 'person',
Correct
Quote:
or because some classes of people are inferior to others and therefore don't have the same rights?
???
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:22   #62
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
You mean half the DNA required if you reate the human being in the standard way. If you use anohter way, all the required DNA is already there.
not true in 50% of sperm, but better. It would be simpler just to refer to hair or something else that already had complete DNA if you are going this way though (unconventional reproduction technique argument v 1.1)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
Well no, because they aren't provided by other people..
food isn't provided by other people, but drugs are?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
The doctor cannot just switch off the heart bypass machine because he's tired and wants to go home - the person he is operating on is dependent on him for survival at that point, and he has a legal and moral duty to continue to operate until either the person is well enough for the machine to be switched off or the person dies.
he can't actively turn it off,

but he can just go home. might (will) get fired. nobody will ever force him to operate, legally. could lose his license as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Correct

???
k. then we really don't disagree anywhere.

lots argue that fetuses are people with less rights than other people. i never liked that line of thinking.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:24   #63
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

If I had said hair though Acropolis, someone would agrue that the hair is already a person, in that its part of a living person.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:25   #64
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Typical of catholic schools: they think a 100%-effective method of contraception exists but won't let anyone use it.

If only such a method existed...

The Pro-Lifers will have to contend with a world full of unwanted children however. Enjoy your last laugh.
1st I just said it could be use to prevent conception in the event of rape. The reasoning, its a 'what if' event where sex was not done out of love in any form and was ment to hurt. Since a sperm is not a human and neither is an egg its safe to prevent conception.

2nd Every child deserves to be wanted. Very rich man lives around the Philly area. His mother didn't want him and put him up for adoption. He never was. He has given much back to the church because it was a Catholic Orphanage that raised him. Hell, he bought our school its network. Under you system this man that went on to do great things would have been killed before birth. Is that a crime, yes. Do children sometimes go unwanted, yes. Still even wanted childrend are negatled and abused.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:26   #65
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
If I had said hair though Acropolis, someone would agrue that the hair is already a person, in that its part of a living person.
A piece of hair is an extension of a person's bodie, stupid argument. In case you wanna know, the Catholic church said it is morally alright to clone body parts for people as long as you don't clone a person to harvest them from.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:27   #66
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepid00
A piece of hair is an extension of a person's bodie, stupid argument.
Give the man a cookie!!
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:29   #67
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Oh and the Catholic Church also claims that condoms allow HIV viruses through the "tiny pores in the condoms", so I have very little faith in what the "Catholic Church" says and claims.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:30   #68
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
food isn't provided by other people, but drugs are?
If everywhere stopped selling food, people could forage, grew vegetables, keep cows, etc. We just buy our food because it's more convenient.

I doubt many people could produce drugs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
he can't actively turn it off,

but he can just go home. might (will) get fired. nobody will ever force him to operate, legally. could lose his license as well.
I suspect that if he started to operate and then stopped for no reason, and the patient died, he would be charged with murder.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:31   #69
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
If I had said hair though Acropolis, someone would agrue that the hair is already a person, in that its part of a living person.
response being that neither a hair nor a lone cell of jizz will naturally tend toward growing into a person.

eventually we discover that the essential characteristic is the natural tendency toward becoming a human being.

rebutted by pointing out that if something is going to become a human being, it logically can't already be one.

etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
If everywhere stopped selling food, people could forage, grew vegetables, keep cows, etc. We just buy our food because it's more convenient.

I doubt many people could produce drugs.



I suspect that if he started to operate and then stopped for no reason, and the patient died, he would be charged with murder.
where i'm living now i could produce penicillin and aspirin without much difficulty. if i was an oil worker in central saudi arabia i could not forage any food at all.

apparently whether or not a fetus is a person depends on geography more than anything else.

and now you have me curious about our surgeon.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:35   #70
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

A feutus won't doesn't have the natural tendency to become a human, unless it exists in some very very specific environment. In the case of a feutus, the envirnment is "in a HUMAN womb".

A sperm will also tend to become a human being given an equally specific environment. In this case, it includes "close to an HUMAN ova, in a HUMAN womb".
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:36   #71
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepid00
Pro-Choice, Pro-Murder, Pro-Killer.

Choose life, your parents did.
Another thing I discovered studying medical ethics in college is that debates about subjects like abortion are all heat and very little light. For instance, we have this name-calling, slogan-spouting jackass, screaling BABY MURDERER at the top of his lungs. I wonder what his real agenda is?

I've always found it curious that people who are hollering about the sanctity of life are frequently pro-death penalty and don't seem to care about the children that are already born that could use some help. Their interest in children seems to end once the child is born.

Obviously their interest in the debate is political/psychgological - they could care less about children, per se. It's either part of a larger political agenda, or it has its roots in some psychological issues that they probably don't even understand themselves. My personal opinion is that these people are either anti-sex or reacting in fear to the notion that their parents could have aborted them, and they are trying to retroactively disempower their mothers.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:37   #72
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

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Originally Posted by Uberhamster
Save your knee-jerk slogans for your fellow anti-choice proto-fascists. You could easily be replaced by a spambot.
Ok you Nazi. They murdered the unwated, you know retards, jews, gypsies anyone that didn't meet their ideals.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:38   #73
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
A feutus won't doesn't have the natural tendency to become a human, unless it exists in some very very specific environment. In the case of a feutus, the envirnment is "in a womb".

A sperm will also tend to become a human being given an equally specific environment. In this case, it includes "close to an ova, in a womb".
So if I stick a featus into a cow it become a calf?
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:39   #74
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uberhamster
Save your knee-jerk slogans for your fellow anti-choice proto-fascists. You could easily be replaced by a spambot.
I'm all for choice.

I just think the choice is "Should I have sex and risk having a baby?" and not "Should I kill my unborn child?".
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:40   #75
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Sorry, if you really want me to be pedantic I will edit that to "human womb". Forgot I was on GD for a second.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:40   #76
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

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Originally Posted by Bunga
Oh and the Catholic Church also claims that condoms allow HIV viruses through the "tiny pores in the condoms", so I have very little faith in what the "Catholic Church" says and claims.
If condoms are so effective why do people get pregant even though they used them. Its because they are thin, the gloves by doctors are now Vinyle and much thicker. Much Much thicker and the AIDs virus is much smaller then a sperm. The only true safe sex is no sex.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:41   #77
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
Sorry, if you really want me to be pedantic I will edit that to "human womb". Forgot I was on GD for a second.
I am willing to bet, someday science will allow for artfical wombs for at conception. The question is will it be moral but will prove your theory wrong.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:47   #78
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

let's not upset a fetus
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:47   #79
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
A feutus won't doesn't have the natural tendency to become a human, unless it exists in some very very specific environment. In the case of a feutus, the envirnment is "in a womb".
then a fetus is a person when it's in a womb. seems simple enough. taking it out of the womb would therefore be killing it. or when it's in an artificial environment conducive to growth. i considered putting both of those stipulations down in my original post, but thought it too pedantic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepid00
If condoms are so effective why do people get pregant even though they used them. Its because they are thin, the gloves by doctors are now Vinyle and much thicker. Much Much thicker and the AIDs virus is much smaller then a sperm. The only true safe sex is no sex.
regular sex lengthens lifespan, decreases likelihood of countless problems. ergo, no sex is unsafe.

and do you have any idea of how many people die each year masturbating?
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:48   #80
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepid00
If condoms are so effective why do people get pregant even though they used them. Its because they are thin, the gloves by doctors are now Vinyle and much thicker. Much Much thicker and the AIDs virus is much smaller then a sperm. The only true safe sex is no sex.
Condoms are close to 100% effective. However, since they can slip for an inexperienced user, or tear when you take them out of the packaging incorrectly, they do not always work. Some also have imperfections. If you water test them, they are 85% effective because of these mistakes people make.

Answer this for me: if the condom doesn't allow water to pass (ie has been water tested), how can it allow a virus to pass? Small as they are, water molecules are much, much, much smaller.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:49   #81
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

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Originally Posted by Intrepid00
Ok you Nazi. They murdered the unwated, you know retards, jews, gypsies anyone that didn't meet their ideals.


I'm sorry, I had you pegged all wrong! Anyone who brings the nazis in to a forum debate can only be a comedian. You need to work on your material - it isn't very original.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:50   #82
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
Condoms are close to 100% effective. However, since they can slip for an inexperienced user, or tear when you take them out of the packaging incorrectly, they do not always work. Some also have imperfections. If you water test them, they are 85% effective because of these mistakes people make.

Answer this for me: if the condom doesn't allow water to pass (ie has been water tested), how can it allow a virus to pass? Small as they are, water moecules are much, much, much smaller.
this ones fun.

1. fill a balloon with water. feel that it's dry.

2. pour some vanilla extract in a balloon. smell the balloon.

say "oh ****, condom or no im never ****ing a dirty slut again"
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:51   #83
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepid00
Pro-Choice, Pro-Murder, Pro-Killer.

Choose life, your parents did.
you're right
my parents CHOSE to have me
i wasn't an accident.. i was completely planned.

for some people however they didn't have that choice
imho some people should have their tubes tied.. but i don't make up the rules (i'm talking ofc of the people who sleep around.. get pregnant, abort.. do it again..)

rape victims should definitely have a choice. they didn't CHOOSE to be raped.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:52   #84
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

We have a saying in Sweden.

'There are only two things which smell like fish.'
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:52   #85
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
Condoms are close to 100% effective. However, since they can slip for an inexperienced user, or tear when you take them out of the packaging incorrectly, they do not always work. Some also have imperfections. If you water test them, they are 85% effective because of these mistakes people make.

Answer this for me: if the condom doesn't allow water to pass (ie has been water tested), how can it allow a virus to pass? Small as they are, water molecules are much, much, much smaller.
Clearly you should have paid attention in physics class. Water is ionized. Its small enough to go through a semiconductor board but won't because it bunchs. So a chemical, which is toxic, is used to clean them that is not ionized.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:55   #86
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Proteus
I'm all for choice.

I just think the choice is "Should I have sex and risk having a baby?" and not "Should I kill my unborn child?".
So basically your argument is, sex should only be for reproductive purposes. If you aren't trying to conceive, you shouldn't be having sex.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:55   #87
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aryn
you're right
my parents CHOSE to have me
i wasn't an accident.. i was completely planned.

for some people however they didn't have that choice
imho some people should have their tubes tied.. but i don't make up the rules (i'm talking ofc of the people who sleep around.. get pregnant, abort.. do it again..)

rape victims should definitely have a choice. they didn't CHOOSE to be raped.
I seriously doubt your parents where thinking, "Lets make us an Aryn" when they where ****ing. No, they where think damn this shit feels good.

I also quote what I said before:

Quote:
2nd Every child deserves to be wanted. Very rich man lives around the Philly area. His mother didn't want him and put him up for adoption. He never was. He has given much back to the church because it was a Catholic Orphanage that raised him. Hell, he bought our school its network. Under you system this man that went on to do great things would have been killed before birth. Is that a crime, yes. Do children sometimes go unwanted, yes. Still even wanted childrend are negatled and abused.
Makes me wonder how many famous people where put up for adoption at birth that according to your logic should have been murdered.

Last edited by Intrepid00; 23 Oct 2003 at 19:01.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:56   #88
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

I did in fact pay attention. Water does tend to clump together. Usually in a ring in groups of 6, with a relative molecular mass of about 108. The simplest of viruses are about five or six hundred times as large, and HIV isn't a very simple visrus.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:58   #89
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
I did in fact pay attention. Water does tend to clump together. Usually in a ring in groups of 6, with a relative molecular mass of about 108. The simplest of viruses are about five or six hundred times as large, and HIV isn't a very simple visrus.
Clearly you didn't if a Semiconducter will not stop the spread of a virus but can stop the transfer of water.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 18:59   #90
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

I don't get it. Are you arguing with yourself?
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 19:00   #91
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

I can't help but notice that it seems a bunch of males are all about forcing the raped girl to have the kid. Or give her 24 hours to take the morning after pill, after that "tough shit"

Do you even realize how traumatic it is to be raped? What about the 12 year old girl who is old enough to conceive but has no idea what she is supposed to do? What about the girl/woman who has been raped by her father/brother/grandfather? Let’s make her have her incest child of rape!!! After all, it’s murder!!!!!!

I wonder how legal abortion would be if the man had to carry the child for nine months.

Also Proteus, anyone who thinks that a child who lives a miserable life because of idiotic parents who decided to have the baby would choose that life over abortion, obviously hasn’t seen any children in that situation.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 19:00   #92
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

No my argument is a water test on condom is not valid. It like saying monkey skulls made for good crash test helment trials.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 19:01   #93
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepid00
I seriously doubt your parents where thinking, "Lets make us an Aryn" when they where ****ing. No, they where think damn this shit feels good.

Some people do say "hey let's have a baby" and then commence with the ****ing. Or are you really that naive?
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 19:01   #94
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

The water will have partially dissociated like water does and charged the semiconductor ever so slightly which repelled the water.

Last I checked HIV viruses weren't even marginally polar.

And wet rubber doesn't like being charged.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 19:01   #95
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinnamon xie
I can't help but notice that it seems a bunch of males are all about forcing the raped girl to have the kid. Or give her 24 hours to take the morning after pill, after that "tough shit"

Do you even realize how traumatic it is to be raped? What about the 12 year old girl who is old enough to conceive but has no idea what she is supposed to do? What about the girl/woman who has been raped by her father/brother/grandfather? Let’s make her have her incest child of rape!!! After all, it’s murder!!!!!!

I wonder how legal abortion would be if the man had to carry the child for nine months.

Also Proteus, anyone who thinks that a child who lives a miserable life because of idiotic parents who decided to have the baby would choose that life over abortion, obviously hasn’t seen any children in that situation.
So its ok to victimize someone else because you where a victim?
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 19:01   #96
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

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Originally Posted by Som1
You guys are total twat that know nothing about America the great...
you are a troll and i refuse to bite.

EDIT:

In good ole usenet tradition:

*plonk*
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 19:02   #97
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunga
The water will have partially dissociated like water does and charged the semiconductor ever so slightly which repelled the water.

Last I checked HIV viruses weren't even marginally polar.
OMG, you got it.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 19:02   #98
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

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you are a troll and i refuse to bite.
Yet you just did.
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 19:03   #99
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

[quote=Intrepid00]I seriously doubt your parents where thinking, "Lets make us an Aryn" when they where ****ing. No, they where think damn this shit feels good.
QUOTE]

you're right
but BEFORE they ****ed they said 'let's not use protection and have ourselves a baby'

so you're saying that no one chooses to have a baby? it just happens?
riiiight
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Unread 23 Oct 2003, 19:04   #100
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Re: Abortions illegal in the USA?

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Originally Posted by Intrepid00
Wrong, a sperm only has half and the egg has the other half.
" Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate."
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