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30 Nov 2012, 18:15
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#51
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ToF
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: England
Posts: 607
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
in the past i have agreed but then i thought about it. is every single zik ship a steal ship? is every single cathaaaaaaargh ship an EMP ship?
fair is fair.
__________________
[19:10] <coffee-> dont worry about Reincarnate he is an angry man
R1 - 9 none | R10.5 - 13 [ToF] | R14 [Reunion] | R15-17 [Subh] | R18 - 36 PA vacation | R37 [Evo] | R38 [NFI] | R39 & 40 [ToF] | R41 [Omega] | R42 - 47 [ToF][HC]
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30 Nov 2012, 18:17
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#52
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 477
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
The Xandathrii cloaking technology is of danger to the universe enviroment. With the rapid growth of new black holes, the universe carepolice have forced the race to face out their old cloaking technology.
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30 Nov 2012, 19:26
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#53
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General (Adjective Army)
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Yorkshire, England.
Posts: 825
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnate
....is every single zik ship a steal ship? is every single cathaaaaaaargh ship an EMP ship?
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In both of those cases there is some logic in the race choosing to have (lower tech) kill ships to supplement their race characteristics. I can think of no circumstances in which a race which was capable of cloaking its ships would choose not to do so.
Non-cloaked capital ships could be explained as being too large to be effectively cloaked - but I can't think of an explanation which covers (only) the smaller classes.
Edit. Actually, I suppose non-cloaked smaller ships could be a "logical" choice if they were significantly cheaper/stronger than their cloaked counterparts.
__________________
Amnion (aka The Arcane Chas of Arcania) - Playing PA under those and other pseudonyms every genuine round since Round 2. Most recently (and insignificantly):
Onset of Apathy R94 | Stacks of Resources R95 | The Necromancer of Dol Guldur R96
70 Years of Queen Elizabeth R97 | Worst of The Worst R98
Knights of the Green Shield R99 | Look Out of The Window R100 | Most of All R102
Hard of Hearing (2:7:1) R103 | The Lateness of Your Application (1:6:6) R104 | Kinnison of Tellus (5:1:2) R105
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30 Nov 2012, 19:39
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#54
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
why are pods not cloaked then..
time to get your head around it pals, balance>realism
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"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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30 Nov 2012, 19:59
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#55
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General (Adjective Army)
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Yorkshire, England.
Posts: 825
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Better ask the original game designers that question - although several possible explanations spring to mind. It would be harder to justify SKs being non-cloaked - especially if they're not Cr/BS class.
As for the balance > realism aspect I disagree. Without at least a semblance of internal consistency the game cannot maintain the "suspension of disbelief" which is essential if we are all not suddenly to realise that we're doing nothing more than entering numbers into a database.
__________________
Amnion (aka The Arcane Chas of Arcania) - Playing PA under those and other pseudonyms every genuine round since Round 2. Most recently (and insignificantly):
Onset of Apathy R94 | Stacks of Resources R95 | The Necromancer of Dol Guldur R96
70 Years of Queen Elizabeth R97 | Worst of The Worst R98
Knights of the Green Shield R99 | Look Out of The Window R100 | Most of All R102
Hard of Hearing (2:7:1) R103 | The Lateness of Your Application (1:6:6) R104 | Kinnison of Tellus (5:1:2) R105
Last edited by ArcChas; 30 Nov 2012 at 20:04.
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1 Dec 2012, 02:23
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#56
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Retired
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Back Porch Bar
Posts: 2,593
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
I love me some database.
No, not really.
Anywho, keep up the good work mz.
__________________
I'd rather be fishing.
Utterly useless since r3
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1 Dec 2012, 13:14
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#57
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
I concur with the people who've prioritized balanced over in-context realism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Complete list of changes
TER:
Harpy: ERes 76 -> 78
CAT:
Spider: Arm 9 -> 10, ERes 59 -> 60
Beetle: Guns 6 -> 7, Arm 15 -> 16, Cost 321 -> 342, ERes 72 -> 74
Viper: Arm 12 -> 13
Locust: 72 -> 70, Dmg 42 -> 40
Roach: Guns 9 -> 10, Arm 104 -> 107
Tarantula: Arm 142 -> 130, Cost 3133 -> 2800, ERes 65 -> 61
Scorpion: Arm 226 -> 249
XAN:
Vsharrak: Cost 93 -> 102, ERes 8 -> 22
Pulsar: Cost 111 -> 123, ERes 26 -> 29
Bolt Thrower: Cost 399 -> 420
Fireblade: Cost 600 -> 630
Ghost: Cost 999 -> 1050
Peacekeeper: Cost 3501 -> 3600
Illusion: Cost 109 -> 120, ERes 22 -> 27
Vampyre: Cost 798 -> 876
ZIK:
Cutlass: Arm 20 -> 21, Dmg 16 -> 18
Thief: ERes 70 -> 71
Clipper: Arm: 80 -> 82, Dmg 63 -> 57
Rogue: Arm 225 -> 230, Dmg 195 -> 180
ETD:
Ranger: Arm 20 -> 21
Investor: Arm 27 -> 33
Broker: Guns 9 -> 10, Arm 85 -> 90
Tycoon: Arm 135 -> 140, Dmg 125 -> 143
Rambler: Arm 24 -> 25
Bailiff: Arm 97 -> 106
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(Doing my best, Cochese!)
[edit] Hm. I totally failed to realise that you can boost Co by nerfing the Clipper and Dealer.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 1 Dec 2012 at 13:43.
Reason: All changes uploaded.
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2 Dec 2012, 09:28
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#58
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,663
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
A cutlass that doesn't kill
A thief that doesn't steal
Invert the names is what i feel
__________________
<smith> You're 15 and full of shit.
<Furious_George> no, im 22
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2 Dec 2012, 09:52
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#59
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
.....
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"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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2 Dec 2012, 10:01
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#60
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idle
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 968
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
this looks like a very promising set
too bad i lost all motivation to play another round of PA
__________________
m0rph3us formerly known as Bugz
"It´s not about how hard u hit, its about how hard u can get hit and still keep moving forward! How much u can take and still move forward!"
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2 Dec 2012, 10:32
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#61
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
A cutlass that doesn't kill
A thief that doesn't steal
Invert the names is what i feel
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Fair enough. Consider it done.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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2 Dec 2012, 23:13
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#62
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
So im looking at these zik stats and i see no point for Co to exist..... They cant roid into anything except cath. Thats pretty bad. If they only have attack into cath then they will never be able to cap roids.
Cutlass -> init 6 would help fix that.
Also mara will never be able to do anything vs ghost firing 1st and ter de has so much armor 600 a/c vs the 360 d/c on mara.
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R50-55 Faceless
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3 Dec 2012, 01:11
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#63
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king of carrot flowers
Join Date: May 2012
Location: 'Ampshire
Posts: 101
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
So im looking at these zik stats and i see no point for Co to exist..... They cant roid into anything except cath. Thats pretty bad. If they only have attack into cath then they will never be able to cap roids.
Cutlass -> init 6 would help fix that.
Also mara will never be able to do anything ghost firing 1st and ter de has so much armor 600 a/c vs the 360 d/c on mara.
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I agree that upping the strength is a good thing but don't forget that zik having the same pod class add cath makes team ups very powerful. I know everyone moans about teams but it is a team game so it isn't unreasonable to think cats and ziks wont team which does help compensate. In fact at this rate I'm going to play zik, find an accommodating cat friend and build primarily corvette.
It is a struggle to raid solo with it but playing with the calc I don't find it to restricted.
Anyway, I know we shouldn't aim for stats that encourage teams but players will always team regardless so 'see it as an added benefit'
__________________
I finished high once, not as high as you, but then I ain't talking about rankings..
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3 Dec 2012, 03:05
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#64
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Then why not just play all cath? That way you can still solo and your teams are better then if you have ziks's
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R50-55 Faceless
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3 Dec 2012, 07:43
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#65
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Or better yet actually make zik Co all Steal change Cutlass to steal with good a/c D/c and that'll do a lot for zik co because value will then win calcs.
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R50-55 Faceless
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4 Dec 2012, 15:56
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#66
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,663
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
I already see the Defwhores with pure Peacekeeper fleets covering 3 DE incs ingal...
__________________
<smith> You're 15 and full of shit.
<Furious_George> no, im 22
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4 Dec 2012, 17:11
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#67
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Ehh? Ter DE you mean? Xan DE kills PK's before they shoot.
__________________
"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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4 Dec 2012, 17:56
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#68
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 477
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
I already see the Defwhores with pure Peacekeeper fleets covering 3 DE incs ingal...
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theres always ships people can spam and def 3 fleets with ingal..
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4 Dec 2012, 18:00
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#69
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 477
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
You know very well what would happen to a all cath ally/gal/bp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
Then why not just play all cath? That way you can still solo and your teams are better then if you have ziks's
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4 Dec 2012, 19:09
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#70
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
I already see the Defwhores with pure Peacekeeper fleets covering 3 DE incs ingal...
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As you yourself said, building only [Peacekeepers] has advantages and disadvantages.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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5 Dec 2012, 02:36
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#71
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,663
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
I see why you kept them cloaked...
__________________
<smith> You're 15 and full of shit.
<Furious_George> no, im 22
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5 Dec 2012, 08:31
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#72
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
They're infinitely worse than Widows were in r49. This is a not a problem and I see no reason to do anything about it.
I haven't really done much work on my stats these last few days, and I'm not getting a lot of response either. That leads me to believe we're getting close to balance, and in any case, I'm getting to the point that I'm unwilling to put much more time into them until I know they're being used.
The first half of making stats is a lot of fun, but the last straws are pretty boring. I'll be glad to do them, but only if they actually end up getting used.
Ball's in your court, Appoco!
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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6 Dec 2012, 08:53
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#73
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,663
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Well, I hope we can get a confirmation as soon as r49 is over that this set will be r50 stats.
Still weird that with 2 stealing races, none of them is able to steal FR or DE... I would have made the Interceptor a CO with DE as T2...
__________________
<smith> You're 15 and full of shit.
<Furious_George> no, im 22
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6 Dec 2012, 09:58
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#74
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
There's too much Co firing at De and De firing at Co as is, tbh. It's something I'm not really happy with, but with 2 De fleets and 2 Co fleets, and no Fi/Fr/De firing at De, that's really not something I can improve. You need a lot of Co firing at De, because it's the only class that can make ally ETA. Similarly, because there's a lot of Co firing at De, you need a lot of De firing at Co.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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6 Dec 2012, 11:25
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#75
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Propaganda Chief
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Under the Rainbow
Posts: 4,740
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
geezus, why we always have to turn the stats upside down every round, cant we just tweak the ones we have into being slightly less boring?
__________________
RainbowS
RB Ely MISTU Angel Fusi0n 1up ToF VisioN CT FAnG ROCK
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6 Dec 2012, 11:32
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#76
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
We should definitely do that.
The reason I didn't do it for these stats is that tweaking existing stats is boring. I made these stats to amuse myself. They ended up being decent enough to actually be used only as a side-effect.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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7 Dec 2012, 23:54
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#77
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Any word from appoco? Hopefully with in the next week he'll say if we are using these stats.
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R50-55 Faceless
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8 Dec 2012, 00:52
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#78
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
I made Appoco aware of the last few posts in this thread. No response yet, but like you said, hopefully I'll get one this week. Until that response is here, I won't be putting any more work into these stats. They're pretty decent now, and everything from here on out is quite frankly going to be rather boring. Not that I'm not willing to do it, but not without knowing for sure what their destination will be: trash can or round whatever.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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9 Dec 2012, 09:40
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#79
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Valle is my hero
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,581
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Weall know he will respond in the first week of January... making it a last minute rush again to get the stats ready and they will then be fudged up by him tampering with them before tick start....
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17 Dec 2012, 14:58
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#80
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Ok, I got confirmation that these stats will indeed be used for round 50. I never knew I had a fanclub.
I'll be fairly busy at work for a few more days, so I probably won't continue working on them until this weekend.
Nevertheless, feel free to continue making suggestions, preferably in this thread. I expect to still need quite a few A/C and D/C changes. Barring massive oversights by yours truly, I don't plan to accept any suggestions beyond adding a target here or there, if that, so adjust your expectations accordingly.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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20 Dec 2012, 09:27
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#81
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
All of this init 7 fire needs to be fixed because its going to make it VERY hard to attack with these stats....
Atm:
Ter De Roids: Xan Fi w/o Hulls 3
Zik w/o Hulls 3
Etd All
Ter Bs Roids: Zik
Cat Co Roids Almost all, Save for the De Planets.
Cat Cr roids All
Xan Fi Roids: Zik All
Ter All
Xan De Roids: Zik Non-cr planets
Etd All
Zik Fi/Co Roids: Cath
Zik Bs roids: Cath
Etd Fi Roids Ter All
Etd Fr Roids Xan All
Etd Cr Roids Etd Fr
Cat All
Thats pretty shitty and I'm not listing targets that will need Heavily 1 sided fleets or mass team ups because thats not whats needed when making stats. Most of these same init fire ships need to be changed to either have much higher or lower a/c and d/c, OR Change some of the init to give specific ships an advantage.
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R50-55 Faceless
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21 Dec 2012, 01:19
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#82
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Old Skool
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Posts: 278
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
I'm not in total opposition of tia on this one - wtf??
A lot of possible solo attks ends up being dependant on cath flak, with the current number of same inits across the classes.
However I'm not in favour of dumping/boosting the A/c D/c, as it ends up balancing defence options in a wrong way.
But making a few changes, like making cutlass a 19/steal - switching targets on interceptor/merchant. In order to minimize the cath needed to land in general.
Again, it's the discussion if we want everything, to land on everyone like two rounds ago, or nothing to land on noone like last round.
I can live without mass solo options, but then again others most likely disagree.
In the end alliances end up using cath as their means to land/def if there's too few options, and that is annoying in my book.
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21 Dec 2012, 11:53
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#83
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
I don't view the init 7 ships as a big deal. Currently it's only fireblade/dealer -shooting at cutlass/arrowhead and bolt thrower shooting at rogues that have the same inits. Not really a huge deal if you ask me.
__________________
"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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21 Dec 2012, 12:04
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#84
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 477
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
So Cath,Etd and Xan can roid almost anything and we have to few attack possibilites ?
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21 Dec 2012, 12:48
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#85
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Xan cant roid anything. They really can only roid Ter solo and Ziks that dont go Co. Etd Stop them easy, Cath with value stop them, Thiefs are very effective vs xan fi. And De is just a Joke, Arrowhead, Cutlass, Viper will all be around and any of those will cause xan De to recall.
Cath have always been able to roid just about anything given the right fleet compositions.
Etd Has 1 roiding target for each of its 3 attack classes, and even Fr is going to have a hard time landing on Xan Fi.
So no.. there that many attack possibilities. I also don't this round being anywhere close to an even race distribution. I see ALOT of Xan's and Caths and few Ter's to Fort with the Xan's.
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R50-55 Faceless
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21 Dec 2012, 16:49
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#86
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
I went over the attack fleets again to see how defense was holding up. The full list of changes I made, as a result of that perusal, you may find below. For the most part, I've made defense ships weaker, insofar as they did not form part of attacking fleets as well.
Additionally, I've nerfed Ter De, boosted Xan Fi against Cat and the boosted Xan De. I've also attempted to prevent the Cutlass from becoming too much like round 49's Lancer. That last change is fairly small, but I may push it a bit further, if need be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Complete list of changes
Harpy: Cost 300 -> 315, ERes 78 -> 82, Arm 18 -> 19
Pegasus: Dmg 73 -> 71
Drake: Dmg 77 -> 72
Roach: Arm 107 -> 110, Cost 2300 -> 2364, ERes 53 -> 54
Vsharrak: ERes 22 -> 28
Pulsar: ERes 29 -> 33
Bolt Thrower: Dmg 16 -> 15
Fireblade: Dmg 25 -> 26
Ghost: Arm 37 -> 39
Peacekeeper: Dmg 152 -> 146
Illusion: ERes 27 -> 31
Vampyre: ERes 52 -> 50
Corsair: Cost 180 -> 190, ERes 62 -> 64
Cutlass: Arm 14 -> 13, Cost 300 -> 306
Marauder: Arm 165 -> 160, Dmg 105 -> 100
Smuggler: ERes 77 -> 78
Dealer: Arm 78 -> 72
Tycoon: Dmg 143 -> 132
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I'll also repeat my earlier request for calcs when you make points. I cannot be arsed to follow up on vague objections without supporting evidence. I'll act upon hard facts, not handwaving and scaremongering.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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21 Dec 2012, 17:41
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#87
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
Etd Has 1 roiding target for each of its 3 attack classes, and even Fr is going to have a hard time landing on Xan Fi.
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How can etd fr not roid every race? I'm not saying etd fr can roid every planet(obviously xans whoring fi and ter/ziks whoring bs will be hard to stop), but that just means they're wide-open vs other races.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
So no.. there that many attack possibilities. I also don't this round being anywhere close to an even race distribution. I see ALOT of Xan's and Caths and few Ter's to Fort with the Xan's.
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I don't see how you can say caths look stronger than most other races tbh. They have to build three shipsclasses, five total ships, and as cath is a caths primary enemy more caths = bad for caths. And first you say xans can't attack anything, before then saying everyone is going to go cath!? Are you trying to seem dafter than you are or what?
__________________
"Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of War"
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21 Dec 2012, 22:29
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#89
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
According to your calcs, Cat Co works against Xan Fi, Cat Co, Cat Cr and Etd Cr. I have no problem with that.
[edit] And Ter Bs too. And Zik Bs. So basically the only thing it doesn't work against is De.
__________________
The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 21 Dec 2012 at 22:46.
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21 Dec 2012, 23:43
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#90
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
And that is what i had said in my 1st post. So basiclly if cath can solo vs almost everything why wouldnt people choose it?
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22 Dec 2012, 00:37
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#91
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Cath is always able to solo everything, everyone doesn't go cath because of that due to the fact that EVERY RACE CAN ROID CATH.
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22 Dec 2012, 00:50
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#92
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Yes but if no other race can attack into the other then why would someone choose ter/zik/etd?,
My point that I'm trying to make is, fix some of the def ships.
Ter De is fine, as it actually fires before all the co. And since cr/bs is out of ally def its ok for them to have adv.
Xan: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=qo0nl4yq16qrxqe
Xan(hulls3): http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=mzniy3noxql7gyb
Ter: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=uahsfk9t4ltw548
Cat(co): http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=bu6v62yn7w70dcl
Cat(Cr): http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=rbblbyhrcs03vel
Zik(co): http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=wlg5mg64j49h037
Zik(bs): http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=e5po0oaymnvnzf6
Etd: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=v1plyk8sjlxn64r
Ter Bs Is ok but the problem that im seeing will be a problem from zik bs as well, Ghost is just too good, even at t2 Every Xan will have them and a faster ETA ally def cloaked ship is going to make it impossible for BS to be played.
Ter: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=wrir0t7ztmzc0e8
Cat: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=w4xua2jbvz1lpqw
Xan: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=v2u1zlq25v3w96w
Zik: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=9r8n2cn7fegnp1q
Etd: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=dr1s1ppthvumhk2
As for the Dragon I think it either need more A/c OR more D/c because right now it'll be real easy for cr planets to cover any ter bs inc with just 1 def ship. Tara and Tycoon fire 1st, and dragon doesnt hit back hard enough for it to matter.
Xan Fi Is perfect the way it is, can attack into alot of races, Ter/Zik/Cat(cr) Xan vs Xan is always a problem. Etd fires 1st but thats ingal/pl only and it doenst fire at too much D/C.
Xan De, just wow... It bad, fireblade/arrowhead/cutlass all fire at the Same init, If you drop Fireblade to init 6 and lower the a/c to like 300 it'll be much better.
I am also worried that Xan A/c is much higher than Ter D/c and i've usually associated the two with being the same.
I have already gone over Cath so Zik
Co Unless the Fireblade gets changed there options are... Cath . They cant attack
Ter: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=cgph7ftdqtwv3eo
Xan: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=0s5w60upb4shx3d
Xan De: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=8mpq2umqlt34s1i
Steal vs Steal is stupid but they Cant Attack other zik Co
Zik Co: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=tylnepafkprc8hk
And if Ziks are gona be using Clipper then sure have that free roiding.......
Etd: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=sh2bqy3wpvcoty5
So something's got to Give for that attack fleet.
Zik Bs:
Vs Ter(De) http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=gf5iawj1fja7li0
Vs Ter(harpy) http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=p856z8hap5dcxve
So if Ter's are using harpy they will be able to roid them.
Cat: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=2txjgtyuqsbyltv
Xan: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=aj4f3u2nox29fbj
Zik is a no brainer Mara's will always win over the Bs even if they are in smaller numbers because the init adv, If you were to switch Mara and Pirate init then Zik could roid other ziks and avoid the same problem we had this past round with Ter Bs and syrens.
Zik: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=f9t3mt9g6nq60h8
Etd(cr): http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=gugqisegbn605jx
Etd(Fr): http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=1017w9qqmehhdng
So yes Zik bs has more attack options and can do Ok vs some races, but because of some bad init fights they cant really attack as they covered by atleast 3 different def ships.
Etd,
Fr is going to do Pretty well vs xan's
Xan: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=ck5yd8e3r8th54h
Ziks: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=wibg276kok0ujvi
Zik(bs): http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=ogjju64qzpb04ab
Cat: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=5dw26aicc53cfd2
Cat(scorp) http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=mdgjlxg8ghxkikl
Etd: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=w9c61083xrmtqxs
So that makes Etd fr good to attack into Xan/Cat/Etd, and If Maximized right Ziks.
ETd Cr:
Ter(de) http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=rjzga068qqaf86b
Ter(bs) http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=p4ny3kupyltljzi
Cat: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=owxcm6w7wdo6dxi
Xan(De): http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=kskbfesxnzg21ah
Xan (fi): http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=jdneojw3yc0kzzp
Zik(Co): http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=akdffz9w49h7b8l
Zik (bs): http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=f8wbqqhx1629cq0
Etd: http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=p1qv8ot079vxps0
So By far some work needs to be Done. De fleets are going to be Super Strong defensively but not so good on the attacks.
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Last edited by Tiamat101; 22 Dec 2012 at 01:53.
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22 Dec 2012, 09:12
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#93
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mz.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,587
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
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I'm not opposed to giving Ter Bs some more juice. Added to my list of things I might change.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
Xan De, just wow... It bad, fireblade/arrowhead/cutlass all fire at the Same init, If you drop Fireblade to init 6 and lower the a/c to like 300 it'll be much better.
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I envision that Xan De will mostly be used in fortresses with Ter De. Making it too strong offensively would therefore be a bad idea. However, I recognize that Xan De is not very good at the moment. I've already given them a little boost, and might give them some more. We'll see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
I am also worried that Xan A/c is much higher than Ter D/c and i've usually associated the two with being the same.
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This is intentional. Ter has gotten a 50-100 point boost to its A/C compared to the last 10 rounds, and I've dropped their D/C somewhat to compensate. This is an attempt to make their race characteristics stand out more, like they did in earlier days.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
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Zik attack options are always mediocre at best. Zik Co has a lot of nice steal options (much more so than Zik Bs), so I'm hesitant to improve them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
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The Marauder init is intentional and I won't change it. I might lower it's D/C, but then again, it's only really good against 1 single attack fleet out of 10.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
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Holy shit, the Scorpion is terrible. I might even change around the targetting there, because its utterly ****ing useless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiamat101
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Etd Cr has been a bit of a problem in my stats from the start. Might boost the Broker.
Don't expect any changes today, but I will probably make some tomorrow.
P.S. If everyone wrote posts in this manner, I'd be a happy man.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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22 Dec 2012, 09:29
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#94
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
The Marauder init is intentional and I won't change it. I might lower it's D/C, but then again, it's only really good against 1 single attack fleet out of 10.
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So basiclly your going to make zik the best counter to zik?
Right now thiefs cover Zik co, and Mara cover zik Bs and early/mid/Late wont change that.
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=2chxq2ehd24wo3o
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=ubvn3an9jpedjkm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
I envision that Xan De will mostly be used in fortresses with Ter De. Making it too strong offensively would therefore be a bad idea. However, I recognize that Xan De is not very good at the moment. I've already given them a little boost, and might give them some more. We'll see.
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If you Drop the init on Ghost to 8 and Bolt Thrower to init 6 then it would work about a bit better, Because Then they'd be building out of class and T1'd by Wyvren. Ill post more later when i have some more time.
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22 Dec 2012, 11:04
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#95
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
I really don't see the problem with DE being very strong defensively but weak offensively, always nice to have one fleet like that imo. SHouldn't make the xan de too good.
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22 Dec 2012, 12:11
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#96
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
As it stands right now Xan will be So easy to use a "cousin" planets for ingal app/ult Forts. Mainly because ghost is too good and kills an entire meta class.
If the class is too strong defensivly then why wouldnt everyone play De? Xan will already be Super strong defensivly anyway with Fi being unroidable to other fi planets.
At this rate All Xan is a good strat, and will be very hard to stop a 50 man tag of all xan's that are attacking/defending with 3x fleet fakes all the time. Xan def covers everything very nicely except etd fr.
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22 Dec 2012, 15:06
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#97
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 113
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Xan's cloacked ability should be taken into account more. Xan needs to be worse than the other races because they make up for it with their cloacked ability. Please keep this in mind.
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22 Dec 2012, 18:58
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#98
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
I sincerely doubt we will see many "all ghost" defplanets, they don't exactly contribute a lot to tag. What exactly are they going to do the nights the tag doesn't have cr/bs incs? You are exaggerating the impact of "cousins". They don't even tend to have much value.
Don't get me wrong though, ghosts are a great defship and will be a pain in the ass for bs attackfleets. I don't know how good their emp eff is but hopefully it's not too high.
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22 Dec 2012, 19:15
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#99
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Noruega
Posts: 2,999
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
Having looked at it I reckon the ghost is fine. It's eff vs BS isn't very good and it's nicely emped by CR so I don't think it's OP.
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22 Dec 2012, 20:40
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#100
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 846
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Re: mz' R50 Stats
I have see a lot of stats that are bad, but right now it will be tactical suicide for any alliance to play Bs with the Ghost the way it is. Its garenteed Value loss for the Bs planets, and Wyvren is terribly ineffective vs Ghosts.
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=m9149uyazj27mvo
Ter Bs has 2x the value of the Ghost def fleet.
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=g3f6xarrbjcdeps
Now Zik Bs is a bit more effective but still results in the same they lose more but kill more.
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