School Uniforms

[Lupin]

as far as i know pupils in uk/england wear school uniforms.

now in which school do you have to wear the uniform? public school? private? both (+ whatever type of schools you have)?

[MrL_JaKiri]

Usually, Public School has a uniform.

Most State Schools don't.

[Phang]

state schools vary. a majority don't, but the more middle-class/run by the Fuhrer you get, the more likely it becomes.

[Leshy]

I like the idea of school uniforms.

[Lupin]

why do pub schools have school uniforms?

tradition?

[Leshy]

Presumably to create some sense of equality among students, and to make sure you never have any dress code trouble.

[lokken]

School uniforms promote an idea of equality through the school between pupils, which can only be a good thing.

[Nusselt]

every school i know of regardless of public/state* has a uniform, im surprised that state schools exist without a uniform! im actually in favour of them, it doesn't have to compose of a blazer etc but a standard uniform that every pupil has to wear. There less chance of 'lolomg wtf kind of branded jeans/clothes item is that' occuring, a cheap uniform uniform is good.

*in britain 'public schools' can and does mean private schools

[queball]

Equality isn't much to do with it that I can see. Wearing a uniform makes you more confident. Also it helps the police spot truants.

[Lupin]

my assumption: uniforms is good, as we are all equal and no ones gives a damn if we have or dont have money, where we live etc...

now is my assumption correct?

if so, does this work?

[Nusselt]

id say so yes, there is the argument that it takes out the 'individuality' of children, but i think that the type of clothing that a child wears can be a shallow (though not irrelevant) indication of individuality, besides it makes it easier to spot where the fckers are from.

[queball]

School uniforms were around long before poor people went to school.

[Stew]

I went to the local comp (sure it was called a Grammar school...) and wore school uniform, even through sixth form. Even had to wear a tie. You know thi has the benefits now as I drive past my old school

[Nusselt]

long before poorer people went (i assume you mean the hoi polloi) there were scholarships etc, besides it doesn't negate the argument, the level of competition between 'rich kids' could be as intense as 'poor kids' just with different brands

[Tactitus]

School uniforms seem like a petty implementation of conformity--which perhaps fits in with what school is really about anyway. :/

My daughter's elementary school flirted with the idea of adopting school uniforms a year or two ago, but fortunately rejected the idea. School uniforms were enjoying a moderate surge of popularity here in the US but a couple of respected studies seem to indicate they were not achieving (m)any of their intended benefits so now their popularity seems to be waning.

[queball]

Originally Posted by Nusselt

long before poorer people went (i assume you mean the hoi polloi) there were scholarships etc,

I dunno. I think people were largely seperated by social class in the past. Scholarships could easily pay for respectable clothes, certainly if it's deemed important, and your accent and personality is far more of a give away than your clothes, I believe.

besides it doesn't negate the argument, the level of competition between 'rich kids' could be as intense as 'poor kids' just with different brands

Sure, whatever. It just seems a slightly weird perspective. Do soldiers wear uniforms so soldiers don't get teased for wearing Gucci instead of Prada? Did they institute uniforms at McDonalds when the floor sweepers started sneering at the guys working on the till? Uniforms serve a positive function. Their purpose isn't to stamp out Hobbesian hierarchy, or if it is, it hasn't worked.

[JC]

Every secondary school i can think of in my area has a school uniform. The only places that dont are colleges for 16 (?) year olds upwards.

[A2]

Every school round here has a school uniform. The main private one insists on school uniform until the end of A-Levels (approx 18), whereas the others end at GCSEs (approx 16) when most people go to the college which doesn't have a uniform.

To be honest I never saw a problem with wearing a uniform, and it made life easier not having to decide what to wear each morning. Plus, even if they were uncomfortable, then everyone was uncomfortable together

[Blixxard]

Conformity

• short skirts
• the ridiculously short ties
• Be cool and wear a jumper.
• make up/ chains / trainers

I go to 6th form (so i have to push my way through disease ridden kids who have to conform to brown uniforms). Dress code is emm...errr....not lime green....although...

[skiddy]

Ask Dace.

[Demon Dave]

funnily enough, reading the title, i thought this thread was by Dace. sorry


ps the secondary school i went to (now called a College of Technology (whatever)) had a uniform consisting of blue blazer, shirt, tie, grey/black trousers and black shoes. i'm now at college and don't have to wear a uniform, and i'm damn glad of it

[Boogster]

Non-uniform days were so authority-defyingly cool, back in the day.

[Summanus]

Roughly 99.8% of schools have a unifrom here. There's a senior school (last two years) which doesn't enforce it, but nobody really cares about what anyone wore.

My school's uniform was the best by far though (new principle in third year didn't like the old daggy one, so we were given a shiny new one). And being Mr. Il Capitano (I think your equivalent is Head Boy or some crap), I had to wear the formal uniform (blazer, tie, shoes, long shirt and trousers) on many occasions. It was

[JonnyBGood]

Looking back on it the only annoying thing about school uniforms was that they were shoddily made of the cheapest possible material and therefore couldn't keep you cool on a hot day, warm on a cold one, dry on a wet one and they irritated your skin.

[midge5]

Originally Posted by Boogster

Non-uniform days were so authority-defyingly cool, back in the day.

My school made you pay £1 on them days as an easy way of fund raising


All the schools in my area have a school uniform though and are quite strict in enforcing it though one does take it to silly levels in my opinion, including the confiscating of non school issued coats when the ones they provide are thinner than a blazer. Though for some reason they enforce this a lot more with the boys than girls.

Personally I never had a problem with it. I didn't find it particularly uncomfortable, it didn't look too bad and it saved me the hassle of deciding what to wear.

[Blastoderm]

There's one school in my borough that students don't have to wear uniforms. It's kind of stupid because I can't distinguish who's under 16 and who's not whenever I'm on a bus between 3-4pm.

[Boogster]

Originally Posted by midge5

My school made you pay £1 on them days as an easy way of fund raising

So did mine. Those days also served to teach me of the horrors of capitalism - once upon a time, 'twas only 30p.

[Knight Theamion]

schooluniforms are good.

[Nusselt]

Originally Posted by queball

Sure, whatever. It just seems a slightly weird perspective. Do soldiers wear uniforms so soldiers don't get teased for wearing Gucci instead of Prada? Did they institute uniforms at McDonalds when the floor sweepers started sneering at the guys working on the till? Uniforms serve a positive function. Their purpose isn't to stamp out Hobbesian hierarchy, or if it is, it hasn't worked.

All uniforms are created for the same core reasons, to ease identification and help create harmony, the definition of harmony changes with the organisation but that is still the purpose.

The army does want to minimise soilders from having heterogeneus kit whose quality is wholly dependant on the financial background of the individual soilder, it would sap morale if all the rich boys could afford prada trousers but all poor boys made do with green jeans, so they provide everyone with the basic level of kit needed to do their job, it helps create harmony.

Mcdonalds wanted all their employees to share the uber vision or alternatively wanted everyone to look as idiotic/smart as everyone else. If you gave the floor sweepers nice uniforms and the till staff shite uniforms one group may well sneer on the other and avoid a nice harmonious group relationship.

Schools want to minimise disruption caused by everyone slating everyone elses fashion sense (or lack of) so tell everyone what to wear.

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by Nusselt

every school i know of regardless of public/state* has a uniform,

^^^

[Nusselt]

explain, its late

[Marilyn Manson]

I confirm that your statement also applies to me; YES!

[pablissimo]

I cannot think of a single school, state or otherwise, that I've had any encounters with in Liverpool that have not had a uniform, other than perhaps at sixth-form, and even then there was at least a dress code.

[Nusselt]

i was under the impression that to agree with a statement you simply quoted it but to quote it and add something abstract meant the person quoted had made a contradiction or something :|


anyway goodnight

[Marilyn Manson]

Originally Posted by Nusselt

i was under the impression that to agree with a statement you simply quoted it but to quote it and add something abstract meant the person quoted had made a contradiction or something :

You were mistaken.

[Zar]

we were allowed to wear our own suits as long as they were acceptable (i.e colour has to be blue, dark grey or black etc..)

GIrls however had to have specificially designed skirts. Before 6th form they were just above knee length, after 16 they were even shorter and tighter

[JamMak]

Originally Posted by Zar

shorter and tighter

i.e. so much better

My schools (ended up at different infant/junior/secondary by sheer flukeyness) all had a uniform and I had no problems with it. Did get you a bit nippy in the winter though. My sixth form didn't but it was a sixth form college (ie. A-levels, not for plumbers and brickies but not attached to a school)
And although wearing a uniform might be cripplingly stifling your individuality, who actually bought your clothes through most of those years anyway? Up until say, secondary school, how much input did you get anyway (bearing in mind you had little/no disposable income of your own so it was mummy/daddy's money)

[KoeN]

Originally Posted by Leshy

I like the idea of school uniforms.

agree
it's sexy+

[Dante Hicks]

Agreeing with Nusselt and others - all the schools near me have uniforms for under 16s. Post-16 is almost always non-uniform although at least one college near me makes it's students wear business-type clothes (e.g. suits for the males).

While the original purpose of uniforms may not have been to establish equality between students that's certainly the justification that is usually given. That and it'll mysteriously help to "enforce discipline". Of course, this then leads to a slightly silly situation that better schools don't have uniforms but worse schools do. It's moot though because 90% of schools in London seem to wear a uniform. I know some that don't though - I was most disappointed when my girlfriend said she had no school uniform.

[roadrunner_0]

Originally Posted by JC

Every secondary school i can think of in my area has a school uniform. The only places that dont are colleges for 16 (?) year olds upwards.

same around here

[Blastoderm]

Originally Posted by Dante Hicks

Agreeing with Nusselt and others - all the schools near me have uniforms for under 16s. Post-16 is almost always non-uniform although at least one college near me makes it's students wear business-type clothes (e.g. suits for the males).

There's one college in Wanstead my mate went to and he wore Austin Reed suits everytime he went there.

While the original purpose of uniforms may not have been to establish equality between students that's certainly the justification that is usually given. That and it'll mysteriously help to "enforce discipline". Of course, this then leads to a slightly silly situation that better schools don't have uniforms but worse schools do. It's moot though because 90% of schools in London seem to wear a uniform. I know some that don't though - I was most disappointed when my girlfriend said she had no school uniform.

I agree with this big time.

[Aryn]

despite the cliques and such that happened in school, i'm glad we didn't have uniforms. i mean.. we get to go through the 'what to wear' ritual every day, and really who cares what you or other people wear. the ones who do care are stuck up bitches whom most are pregnant and single right now. (sad but true) there's a bit of a sense of freedom in being able to present yourself the way you want.
i see the reasoning behind the uniforms and while it works over there we have a different culture so i can't see it working too well over here if they tried to force it on everyone.

[Embroglio]

the only reason i ever went to school was to see one person in her uniform

[Nusselt]

and after the restraining order you aren't allowed within 300yrds of the school

[Nodrog]

Encouraging conformity, egalitarianism, and a general sense of 'solidarity' amongst the young is a fairly effective way of transmitting subservient and collectivist attitudes. It's a lot easier to "identify with the community" as an adult if you have been taught to think along these lines since childhood, and school uniforms play an (admittedly small) part in instilling these beliefs. Get them while they're young. As well as this, you have the ever-present "anti-class" feelings that are still fairly rampant, as well as the undying committment to egalitarianism in general. It's a popular fashion to try and obliterate any ways in which 'rich' children are distinguished from 'poor' ones, and again school uniforms have a role to play in this.

With specfic regard to private schools, I would imagine that instilling a sense of 'school spirit' becomes important for more practical reasons, since as far as I know a lot of private schools rely heavily on former students for financial support. Since the beginning of time, it's been a fairly common practice within groups to enforce conformity to sets of seemingly arbitrary practices/customs/traditions which serve no purpose other than to distinguish "members" from "non-members", in order to instill a sense of belonging in the former. "We" do things this way, but "they" do them that way! School uniforms and other seemingly 'quaint' practices within private schools certainly fall into this category. A good example of a similar thing at a higher level would be Oxford/Cambridge/Yale - generally alumni from these universities feel a signifantly stronger sense of college pride than students from other universities (including ones of equal stature), which can be put down at least in part to the fact that these institutions focus relatively strongly on the aforementioned arbitrary customs and traditions. As far as I know, Yale receives more in terms of alumni donations than any other university in the world, so the motivations for colleges doing this seem pretty clear. I would imagine private schools are the similar.

But yeah, it's probably largely because they want to avoid the poor kids being bullied for wearing shit trainers.

[Nodrog]

Oh yeah, and since a lot of the better private schools enforce school uniforms (for the aforementioned financial reasons), there's probably a fairly strong association in most people's minds between "having a uniform policy" and "being a good school". Hence a lot of other schools will decide to copy, in the hope that they will be thought of as 'good' too. Speaking personally, when I encounter kids in the street wearing formal uniforms, I almost immediately make certain judgements about their school - that it is 'classy', unlikely to be located in a ghetto, and so on. Creating these kind of impressions is obviously in the best interest of the school, assuming that it's trying to persuade rich families to send their kids there (or competing for government funding). I heard someone making a similar argument regarding student tuition fee topups, where it's believed that a lot of universities will choose to charge the highest amount possible simply because thats what the 'good' universities are doing, and charging any less would create the impression that you're shit. And it's a fairly common practice in marketing to avoid setting your prices "too low", since that would cause people to perceive your product as low quality.

[Nusselt]

btw tangentially but out of curiosity is collectivist thought necessarily a bad thing? i don't think collectivism and subservience automatically go hand in hand, all structured education is to an extent collectivist thought, but inherent in that is (or should be unless its a shit course) to teach the ability to think of problems in new ways and/or understand the core of a particular argument. Collectivism can have a net positive affect on the populous and not lead to authoritarianism.

[Marilyn Manson]

Mabye people just think in a kind of half-arsed way that they look smart on the kids rather than this being one giant conspiracy of the Collectivist-Socialist elite now controlling our lives and messing with our bodily fluids from their hideout on Moon Base Alpha.

[Nusselt]

you're a tool of the man, manson

[Nodrog]

That depends on what you mean by 'collectivism'. I was using it in the sense of encouraging people to identify themselvs as a part of a group they contingently belong to (be it 'class', 'race', 'school attended' or whatever). Assuming you mean something similar, I'd be curious why you believed that it was a necessary part of structured education.