Defence Turret

[Mr Person]

Having come to severely loathe structure killers, and working on the assumption that they are not about to taken out of the game altogether, my suggestion is this:

Create a new type of structure, a 'defence turret', which targets only structure killers. Each one would have to be fairly powerful I would imagine, as people would only be able to build a limited amount. These turrets would be added to the structure list like usual, and when built would have no impact on any ship-to-ship battles at the planet, they would only fight it out with the structure killers themselves.

The fluff (if needed) could be something along the lines of 'mobile' turrets that protect the local infrastructure when the bombers make their run.

I'll leave suggestions on power/init in comparison to the structure killers themselves to others. However, what do you think of the basic idea? Is it at all feasible?

I'm just trying to come up with a way to stop people being blasted back to tick 1 to be honest

[MAdnRisKy]

you might wanna have a scoure of the forums, this has been suggested before I believe.

[themast]

+ PDS sucked bigtime

[Mr Person]

I apologise if I'm bringing up an old subject, I probably should have checked that first.

Also, I'm not suggesting PDS (I agree that it sucked). These turrets would be structures, just like metal refineries etc. They wouldn't be targeted by most ships, and they wouldn't target most ships. They would have their own private war with the structure killers (if that's workable)

[Neferti]

I don't know if this has been brought up before, I dont recall seeing it. There was a suggestion a long time ago for 'shield generators' though, which would have had a chance of preventing some or all SK damage in a similar fashion to the way security centres stop covert ops... I wonder if I can find it...

[coffee-]

Took me a second to realize who you were Mr. Person.

I sort of like the idea, as the constructions would not be for everyone because it would take away from building other (possibly) more important structures like amps/distorters/finance centres/and security centres.

[Neferti]

Here's the old shields thread... just over a year old now!

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=176652

[ChubbyChecker]

I like this idea. As has been mentioned these turrets would be one of your 150 structures so it would be a tactical decision whether to build them or not.

As for their stats, I would say that their initiative should be lower than SK's, doesn't really matter if it's 1 or 49. As for their damage I would suggest that they cause at least 100,000 resources worth of damage.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Neferti

I don't know if this has been brought up before, I dont recall seeing it. There was a suggestion a long time ago for 'shield generators' though, which would have had a chance of preventing some or all SK damage in a similar fashion to the way security centres stop covert ops... I wonder if I can find it...

Shield generators and/or suiciding structkillers is my personal preference.

[noah02]

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=181768

I know this excact idea was declined because i thought of it myself

Which is why i thought of this instead

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=182728

[Makhil]

This is very interesting idea and it seems logical, on the condition that structure killers are put in a separate ship class (Drones ?) so they don't have to go through 2 defense lines (let's say Drones are too small to be detected and targetted by normal ships)
Maybe it would be more effective, everytime you build a structure to have the option of upgrading it to 'turrets'. It's a one time option just after the construction has been built, if you decline, your construction will be unprotected forever (might be useful for research centers). The upgrading time would take 50% of a normal construction. This way either you build more construction but they are vulnerable, or you build fewer but they have a protection, or you mix it so basically you pick which construction can be sacrificed.

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by themast

+ PDS sucked bigtime

I think he meant a special turret which would be considered as a construction, which means you can buy them just like you buy amps and they get killed by structure killers since they are structures. But they also fire at structure killers so you don't lose all your factories every 24 hours ...

I think this is a very good idea, I've had all my factories killed several times this round (yes as an Angel) and it sucks to rebuild your 3 types of factories.

[Ultimate Newbie]

actually, i think making these turrets fire after Sks would be better. This is because SKs could then be used in their official role (destroying Amps/Jammers/factories, killing alliance planets etc) *cough* :\ - but the attacker would still loose a portion of their SKs if they sent them (remember maximum number of structures killed are 20%).

This means that players would no longer send SKs along for the hell of it - but it wouldnt deny their use and form a shield that stops huge volumes of SKs (imagine a planet with 100 Turrets, and how many SKs more than usual it would take to kill other structures, and the associated losses).

So having these turrets fire after Sks works too.

[ChubbyChecker]

Yes, I can see the argument for making the turrets shoot after Structure Killers (or perhaps at the same time as?). Although anybody who builds 100 turrets deserves to be immune from Structure Killers. After all they only have 50 structures left for everything else.

[Mr Person]

I see you had a bit of difficulty getting past the 'not pds' stage with your first suggestion Noah

I do like your suicide-attack idea though, it would perhaps be a more simple deterrent than the turrets.

In response to what has been said here, I agree that anyone who has built 100 turrets deserves to be immune to SKs, just as anyone who has built 100 distorters deserves to be immune to most scans (except those crazy alliance scanners like myself ). Making SKs a separate class (the drone idea) would I guess make it easier to implement, and would make the 'private war' between turret and SKs a lot simpler. The idea of upgrading I'm not so sure about, as it may give the races with better construction times quite an advantage. However, any modifications are fine, I just want some way to counter the damn structure killers

[ChubbyChecker]

Making SK's their own class, untargettable by ships, would be a terrible idea. It would make them infinitely more effective which is a bad thing.

[Lοki]

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

Making SK's their own class, untargettable by ships, would be a terrible idea. It would make them infinitely more effective which is a bad thing.

You made a point. But think about it: suppose you have a Xan sending 10000 vsh, 5000 daggers and 100 structure killers. You might kill all 10000 vsh, 1500 daggers and 40 SK's. You'd still lose the constructions.

But... when you have 10-20 defense turrets... that should be able to knock the 100 structure killers out. The difference is the turrets focus on the SK's and regular ships don't.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by Dark Link

You made a point. But think about it: suppose you have a Xan sending 10000 vsh, 5000 daggers and 100 structure killers. You might kill all 10000 vsh, 1500 daggers and 40 SK's. You'd still lose the constructions.

Well, no, you need 250 Predators to kill a construction . But yes, the exampe makes sense.

I would go so far as to saying that ships especially do not target Pods or SKs, due to the quirkiness of the Combat Engine.

Did i mention that i like the idea in principle? The only problem that i see is how to distribute what level of damage.

[ChubbyChecker]

Due to their low armour SK's get targetted a lot more than any other ship.

[teknik]

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

Making SK's their own class, untargettable by ships, would be a terrible idea. It would make them infinitely more effective which is a bad thing.

i agree with this, then if you notice someone without many/enough/any turrets you can just send a fleet of SK's, they cant get any def from alli or gal, they can build prolly 1 construction max before the ships arrive...makes them uber effective against smaller/newer players and damn annoying that you cant get any kind of def against them.

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally Posted by teknik

i agree with this, then if you notice someone without many/enough/any turrets you can just send a fleet of SK's, they cant get any def from alli or gal, they can build prolly 1 construction max before the ships arrive...makes them uber effective against smaller/newer players and damn annoying that you cant get any kind of def against them.

heh, yeah, hadn't thought of that

You could just send SK's as a retal to someone without any turrets and message them saying you will recall your SK's if they recall from you.

[Ginga]

Originally Posted by themast

+ PDS sucked bigtime

PDS rocked!!

[noah02]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Well, no, you need 250 Predators to kill a construction . But yes, the exampe makes sense.

But then again if you go with my idea of suicide then for each structure you loose then the attacker is going to loose 250 predators per structure hes killed
Doesnt that sounds nicer for time/resources spent on the structures?

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=182728

But otherwise I do realise that the word PDS scares everyone and usually creates a lot of closed threads.

[themast]

Originally Posted by Ginga

PDS rocked!!

never

[ChubbyChecker]

Originally Posted by noah02

But then again if you go with my idea of suicide then for each structure you loose then the attacker is going to loose 250 predators per structure hes killed
Doesnt that sounds nicer for time/resources spent on the structures?

http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=182728

But otherwise I do realise that the word PDS scares everyone and usually creates a lot of closed threads.

I really don't like this idea, much like I don't like the idea of making stealers die when they steal. It's just a much too artificial way of limiting their power.

A much better solution would be to make SK's a different class to your attacking ships. For example Terran SK's are Cruisers, Zik SK's are Destroyers, etc... This way you either send ships of that type as flak or you team up with someone who does use those ships. This will make the use of SK's a lot more tactical than it is now.

I'd link you to the thread where this is suggested but for some reason IE isn't letting copy and paste anything at the moment.

[Neferti]

I remember that thread, seems like the simplest solution to the SK 'problem' indeed.

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by teknik

i agree with this, then if you notice someone without many/enough/any turrets you can just send a fleet of SK's, they cant get any def from alli or gal, they can build prolly 1 construction max before the ships arrive...makes them uber effective against smaller/newer players and damn annoying that you cant get any kind of def against them.

This is true - it could be negated somewhat by making ships able to target them, but only as a mixture of other classes (ie, the way it is now - only a small proportion of the ships fire on SKs) - but the PDS construction targets SKs specifically (after the SKs have fired).

That way, if someone feels charitable to defend said newbie without any constructions, they will still be able to kill the SKs - but only once a large proportion of the rest of the fleet has also been killed.

[noah02]

Originally Posted by ChubbyChecker

I really don't like this idea,etc...

But as usual if ppl can send them they will and for all them hours of work and resources ur getting nothing in return for someone just smashing up ur constructions

My main reason for this idea was for the SK to still be easily used in attacks for alliance wars and such but also for the defendant to actually recieve some consolation for hours/resources lost in the form of salvage/least its a sacrifice for ppl so they dont n00b bash.

Coz more than likely who are you going to be able to SK most with different class ships?
I would say u are more likely and easily going to be able to hit smaller planets/alliances no problems because as wakey once said there is always a food chain and as we get lower they are weaker and will gain nothing from a good SK n00b bashing just a negative look at the game.

[Dark-Strider]

This sounds like a return of PDS :/

God help us.

[Appocomaster]

As mentioned in a thread linked to above, having a structure that fires specifically at structure killers is pretty much impossible to practically implement (despite the pretty idea), and making structure killers only killable by them is reliant on this and so also collapses. How do you balance the firepower? The only thing similar to this (mentioned somewhere) was the shield thing, where you could have something like:
% structures lost = 20-(number of shield constructions*100)/(total constructions*5), where every 5% of your constructions that were shields dropped 1% off the structures lost. Of course you could change the "5" to any number, even 1 (1 means literally % structures lost = 20-%shields) so a 20% rate would leave you alone.
Another option is holo-constructions, that are cheaper (1/5 to 1/2 the price) and obviously take a similar length to construct, and they always die first. So, if you spent say 400 hours making 40 structures, you could dash another 10 holoconstructions off in 30 hours and if anyone lands on you they die and you don't loose serious structures. Obviously most these wouldn't be a popular option unless they were cheap and easy to build.

[berzerker]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

.....

Cue holo-roids anyone

Personally i agree with the whole idea of SK-specific defence. Maybe make a single SK-class ship for use by all races (an interstellar treaty on controversial arms?). Note, none of the buildings are race specific, why should this ship be.

One problem that remains is getting that fine balance of attack ability, which would have to be equal no matter what race. This will take much fine-tuning, but dont all the changes we try to implement (ships-stats appoco ).
I see the problems of alliance-SKs, similar to alliance-scanners and alliance-covoppers. But this wouldnt be too much of a problem. If they spend all that time building bucket-loads of SK ships, they wont have any at all that can help actual defence. What goes around comes around and stuff.
Another issue is n00b bashing. I naturally hope alliances don't do this. It would therefore be hard to make it worthwhile. (Make it so you dont get score for SK, only strategic advantages (i.e they cant scan as well, they cant retal as quick as you took out factories)). It will take extensive planning for SKs to be a useful tool and a single n00b-basher wont be able to do this.

Anyway, comments please!

[Ultimate Newbie]

Originally Posted by berzerker

One problem that remains is getting that fine balance of attack ability, which would have to be equal no matter what race. This will take much fine-tuning, but dont all the changes we try to implement (ships-stats appoco ).

If you are refering to the ability to use SKs when attacking, then it wont matter - as if SKs are in their own class, no ship will be able to target them as no ship has SK as their primary (and only) target.

Similarly, because they are in a class of their own, it doesnt matter what attack fleet you send them with, whether it be FI or BA, as the SKs are in a class of their own and thus have no ships that could flak them anyway.

If they (scanners) spend all that time building bucket-loads of SK ships, they wont have any at all that can help actual defence. What goes around comes around and stuff.

They wont need to build ships to help with defence - a scanner's role in the alliance is to provide information, not actual firepower. In this sense, a scanner building alot of the SK targeting ship makes them less vulnerable than before - as their def ships are so rarely needed that it doesnt matter. Scanners contribute with scans, not ships - ships are what lemmings provide.

having said that, if the SK killing ship is itself a Fighter, Frigate etc, then they could all be destroyed by a player who is 2.5 times the size of the Scanner who launches their fleet +SKs, knowing that the fleet will kill the anti SK ship, gain roids, and kill the scanner's structures (particularly amps) as well. in that sense, there is no need for scanners to build ships at all - instead relying on their small value as protection from attack.

Another issue is n00b bashing. I naturally hope alliances don't do this. It would therefore be hard to make it worthwhile. (Make it so you dont get score for SK, only strategic advantages (i.e they cant scan as well, they cant retal as quick as you took out factories)). It will take extensive planning for SKs to be a useful tool and a single n00b-basher wont be able to do this.

They way to make 'n00b bashing' a thing of the past is to make it too expensive to do so. Unfortunately, the combat engine at the moment shelters SKs behind escorting ships (though similarly, this same "feature" protects pods and thus increases roid capture etc) - however by reducing the armour of SKs to far below the level of other ships, and reducing their firepower so that a greater proportion (by numbers) of SKs are required to kill the same number of Structures, you make sending along SKs undesireable as they receive a greater amount of damage with less armour to protect themselves and thus increase losses, and thus increase the cost per roid - which should be at the core of every attack (in some form).

I would also like to see SKs being unable to launch on planets without an alliance hardcoded into the game. granted, this is artifical and restricts the ability of players to act freely in the universe - but in this case, that would be a good thing imo. Scanners can be encouraged to actually join alliances by enabling News Scans on alliance members to be up-to-date, instead of the usual 4 tick wait (i think this has been implemented, but i am not sure) - as then to get the maximum use out of the scanner they have to be in the alliance, at the cost of the protection from SKs etc.

[berzerker]

Ultimate Newbie: Good post

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

If you are refering to the ability to use SKs when attacking, then it wont matter - as if SKs are in their own class, no ship will be able to target them as no ship has SK as their primary (and only) target.

Similarly, because they are in a class of their own, it doesnt matter what attack fleet you send them with, whether it be FI or BA, as the SKs are in a class of their own and thus have no ships that could flak them anyway.

They wont need to build ships to help with defence - a scanner's role in the alliance is to provide information, not actual firepower. In this sense, a scanner building alot of the SK targeting ship makes them less vulnerable than before - as their def ships are so rarely needed that it doesnt matter. Scanners contribute with scans, not ships - ships are what lemmings provide.

But this means they are reliant on these constructions to be killed, which is impossible to balance unless using some sort of % shield thing? This still means they can't be killed, which is surely a bad thing? Unless you want an extra anti structure killer ship?

having said that, if the SK killing ship is itself a Fighter, Frigate etc, then they could all be destroyed by a player who is 2.5 times the size of the Scanner who launches their fleet +SKs, knowing that the fleet will kill the anti SK ship, gain roids, and kill the scanner's structures (particularly amps) as well. in that sense, there is no need for scanners to build ships at all - instead relying on their small value as protection from attack.

Unless this ship fires first.
TBH I think you're creating more problems then solving.

They way to make 'n00b bashing' a thing of the past is to make it too expensive to do so. Unfortunately, the combat engine at the moment shelters SKs behind escorting ships (though similarly, this same "feature" protects pods and thus increases roid capture etc) - however by reducing the armour of SKs to far below the level of other ships, and reducing their firepower so that a greater proportion (by numbers) of SKs are required to kill the same number of Structures, you make sending along SKs undesireable as they receive a greater amount of damage with less armour to protect themselves and thus increase losses, and thus increase the cost per roid - which should be at the core of every attack (in some form).

Are you talking about general "n00b bashing", or just with structure killers?
The way to stop general "n00b bashing" is to either raise the 40% limit, or make xp negative when you hit people under a certain limit - if it's not cost effective, they wont be hit. I can't think of any other way.

I agree that generally having armour at 10-25 efficiency (depending on race) and damage no more than 15 efficiency is a good idea.

I would also like to see SKs being unable to launch on planets without an alliance hardcoded into the game. granted, this is artifical and restricts the ability of players to act freely in the universe - but in this case, that would be a good thing imo. Scanners can be encouraged to actually join alliances by enabling News Scans on alliance members to be up-to-date, instead of the usual 4 tick wait (i think this has been implemented, but i am not sure) - as then to get the maximum use out of the scanner they have to be in the alliance, at the cost of the protection from SKs etc.

No, in fact what should be happening is that anyone in an alliance can scan an alliance member, regardless of distorters. This means that the number of amps isn't going to change if the scan gets through or not, so you don't actually need scanners in your tags - so they hide out of alliance and can be safe from SKs.
Also it means you can see who's allianceless and who isn't by launching at them, and find the "easy" targets when hitting a galaxy.

[ReligFree]

Aka Pds :d