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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:01   #1
Ultramar
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Blocks in r9.5

Any1 able to help me on thr political situation brewing for the current round? I know many ppl arent considering it a proper round, but surely alliances must be staying together while r10 is coming so close. Therefore, will we still have huge blocks in the new random universe?

Since WEET split its WE and ET, now ive heard rumours that WE has also split and are going solo for r9.5, is this correct?

That would leave:

Wolfpack
Elysium
Eclipse & ToT

Will VOMM be sticking together? (apparently not) Ministry (the 2nd M i think!) still around? Leaving:

Olympians
Virus & MadCows & Ministry

Third block being VoRTeX... Stilll staying together for r9.5?

Vengeance & Rock & TFD & Templar

And finally NAR:

NoS/Auld/RaH??

Any1 got any updates on this?

Last edited by Ultramar; 20 May 2003 at 13:23.
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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:07   #2
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Olympians are going solo. like was said in their announcement a short while ago.
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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:07   #3
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As stated a thousand times, Olympians go solo
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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:11   #4
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Well hopefully whatever happend the round wont stagnate
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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:15   #5
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...and Ministreh are no more
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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:18   #6
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eclipse said they went solo didn't they?

My bet is that most alliances will go solo anything else is wank and lame!
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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:28   #7
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Originally posted by Wrath of Azure
...and Ministreh are no more
most of them joined SH, the best ones at least.
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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:42   #8
Wrath of Azure
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update me as to what SH is please?
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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:45   #9
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Re: Blocks in r9.5

Quote:
Originally posted by Ultramar
Vision have already stated they have disbanded

We definately did NOT disband, we are as alive as ever before
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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:46   #10
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...and in everyone's opinion, what makes up a powerblock? 2 or more alliances napped to each other? 2 or more alliances allied to each other?

Bored, trying to start discussion
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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:50   #11
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i would say more then 1 alliance can count as a block, how small it might be...but a block never the less.

Unless u ofcourse look @ the numbers and see what a block is.

I think no one would call a "block" of 2 alliances with 30-50 members really a block.... But when 2 alliances of 300 members team up it would definately be called a block i think... So imho its a combination of number of alliances and the size of each of those alliances
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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:53   #12
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'NAR' ceased to exist a long time ago and I doubt any of the associated alliances will be involved with each other in round 9.5 or round 10.
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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:54   #13
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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:55   #14
Wrath of Azure
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nm, i know what SH is.
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Unread 19 May 2003, 23:04   #15
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Ultramar dont you belong to the VoRteX command? but atleast you are in one of those allies where you could find what exactly will happend to VoRteX..

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Unread 19 May 2003, 23:11   #16
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I think people are worrying about power blocks too much.
What good does a power block do? Screw up yet another round from the start so that at the end the power block can breakup and then attack each other because there are no more targets left that are attackable? Yeah.. Lets play it that way.. Should be fun .. NOT!!!

Alliance.. That was made to play in a team so you could get protection from your mates. And attack with them too. But seems most alliances are not THAT good that they cant even do it alone ... in fact they all suck in doing things alone. Therefore the join forces huh? Yeah right ... joining forces means nothing else then that they not good enough to do it alone with your alliance mates, or that the alliance is too lazy to do it. Well.. You can’t say it isn’t true else there wouldn’t be a power block in the first place.

Also I am quite surprised why people would post things like something stated above "Vision Disbanded".
I mean. If you are not 100% sure about it. Try to join the channel from that alliance (in this case #vision) and ask some @'ed people if this is true... as they most likely should/would know it. But then again. When you’re in a power block you suspect others would do the thinking and asking part which will bring us back again to the being lazy part he he.

Pa can be real fun. As some rounds showed. But that was mainly because the power blocks didn’t worked out or there weren’t any power blocks. (And I don’t see an alliance that is good at the game, like Legion or Fury, as a power block. I do see it as power block when they team forces because they are too chicken to fight alone)

Lets bring the fun back into PA, and let the skilled players show their stuff.

Would be fun aye?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 11:57   #17
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any alliance that form a powerblock for 9.5 is sad and holds no respect or honour for themself's or there members
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:31   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by davidb
any alliance that form a powerblock for 9.5 is sad and holds no respect or honour for themself's or there members
That already applied after rounds 6 and 7 but in round 9 we saw them return anyways. Lack of honour has been abundent troughout this last round as was shown once more in the thread of M&S about ToT.

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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:12   #19
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Even while some alliances 'officially' announce their independant stance for round 9.5, and even round 10, I doubt many will stick to it inofficially.

There will always be NAP's, there will always be Alliances, and there will most certainly always be backstabbing in pa.

The funny thing is, the alliances who will be discovered napping/blocking/allying first, will be the bad boys, while the others will use that as justification to block, while they probably secretly had already.

I would wholeheartedly welcome myself being wrong on this prognoses, I however doubt it...
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:22   #20
Ultramar
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Re: Re: Blocks in r9.5

Quote:
Originally posted by Wandows
We definately did NOT disband, we are as alive as ever before
Apologies, i meant Zenith... who really dont have much to do with any block anyway
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:39   #21
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i joined an ally that promised not to block so im happy with it
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:35   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sjor
i joined an ally that promised not to block so im happy with it
God bless you.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:47   #23
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well i hope all realise we have to kill fur..eclipse first in r 9.5 AND 10.

dont let that 0.5 round make the goldfish memory strike again :P
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:53   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by logbat
well i hope all realise we have to kill fur..eclipse first in r 9.5 AND 10.

dont let that 0.5 round make the goldfish memory strike again :P
and you complain about blocks, how efficiently hypocrytical of you ;-)
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Unread 20 May 2003, 16:29   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by davidb
any alliance that form a powerblock for 9.5 is sad and holds no respect or honour for themself's or there members
Oh shut up.

I've nothing against reasonable arguments about powerblocks, but stop trying to turn it into some kind of stupid moral case about 'respect' or 'honour', both words which are completely meaningless in a war game.

As I've said before, I think r9.5 should be played in a spirit of fun, which means that no powerblocks are needed, for anyone.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 16:44   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by ComradeRob
Oh shut up.

I've nothing against reasonable arguments about powerblocks, but stop trying to turn it into some kind of stupid moral case about 'respect' or 'honour', both words which are completely meaningless in a war game.
I am inclined to agree with you, yet I will not, as I think even within a game, a war game, 'honour' and 'respect' should be valued and cherished. It is a matter of being a sportsman, which is, in planetarion, hard to be I will admit.

But simply stating that (for you) concepts of 'honour' and 'respect' hold no value, does not make it generally applying.

And telling someone to 'shut up' because of something which is your personal opinion, makes you sound terribly arrogant.

[edit] As I am opposed to trolling on these forums, I will refrain from pointing out the fact that you are currently Eclipse HC, and will assume that this post was pointing at your personal opinion only, and not that of your alliance (something we all know is never really possible when being an alliance HC and posting on ad)[/edit]
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Unread 20 May 2003, 16:53   #27
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I don't think anyone who's died on a battlefield fighting for people they've never met in a cause they knew was right would be too chuffed with you comparing what they did to someone's vapid delusions of superior morality in an online text-based game to be quite honest.





PS To claim that what rob is expressing is his own opinion is quite true. However to support the prior line of reasoning is to claim that his opinion shouldn't affect anyone else, yet the one that the concepts of honour and respect are incompatible with powerblocking is an opinion which does affect everyone. A highly dubious claim was made based on an interpretation, and was replied to with another. Opinions are everywhere, but just what is opinion and just what is a matter of fact?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 16:56   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anihilat0r
'NAR' ceased to exist a long time ago and I doubt any of the associated alliances will be involved with each other in round 9.5 or round 10.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 17:00   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
I don't think anyone who's died on a battlefield fighting for people they've never met in a cause they knew was right would be too chuffed with you comparing what they did to someone's vapid delusions of superior morality in an online text-based game to be quite honest.
I am merely pointing out that even in a game like this, people should treat others the same way as they would in every day life. Wishful thinking maybe...

No, your example can hardly be compared to the concepts of 'honour' and 'respect' in an online game, yet making them incomparable, and maybe of less magnitude, by using the given example, does not make them less important in this game.

Someone who gave his life for a fellow comrade in a war, acts in great honour, and deserves a huge amount of respect for that, yes. But if someone decides to defend a fellow alliance member in this game, in the know that he will most likely use his entire fleet in the process, a fleet he has worked hard for to establish in weeks of hard work in front of a computer, deserves honour and respect as well, it's different I will admit, but hardly absent.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 17:10   #30
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As someone already said in this thread there will never be a round where every alliance will fend for itself, even in this 9.5 there will be NAPs & other agreements. You just won't know about them (unless they're leaked or when it's too late). I think this sort of a situation is worse than what we had in some previous rounds (r8 for instance).
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Unread 20 May 2003, 17:25   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by WipeOut
I am merely pointing out that even in a game like this, people should treat others the same way as they would in every day life. Wishful thinking maybe...

No, your example can hardly be compared to the concepts of 'honour' and 'respect' in an online game, yet making them incomparable, and maybe of less magnitude, by using the given example, does not make them less important in this game.

Someone who gave his life for a fellow comrade in a war, acts in great honour, and deserves a huge amount of respect for that, yes. But if someone decides to defend a fellow alliance member in this game, in the know that he will most likely use his entire fleet in the process, a fleet he has worked hard for to establish in weeks of hard work in front of a computer, deserves honour and respect as well, it's different I will admit, but hardly absent.
How is that honour though? Honour implies something objective and real. This an online game in which a system of scoring points has been set-up to evaluate the performance of individuals over a set period of time. How in the name of god that can be objective is beyond me. Even more so in the interpretation of alliances' actions using an abstract system not agreed upon by all or even a majority of the users which once more depends on your interpretations of their actions. You're judging people based on an interpretation of an interpretation. I really don't see anything of value in that. Certainly not something to base concepts of honour and respect on.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 17:30   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Whis
As someone already said in this thread there will never be a round where every alliance will fend for itself, even in this 9.5 there will be NAPs & other agreements. You just won't know about them (unless they're leaked or when it's too late). I think this sort of a situation is worse than what we had in some previous rounds (r8 for instance).
The advantage of secret agreements is that you will not lose anything by breaking them, which would hopefully lead to a more fluid political situation. Keeping the agreement secret means that you can't tell your members about it, so they won't be upset if the deal is broken, and the public will not see you as 'backstabbers' for it. This should make it much easier for agreements to be broken when they are no longer needed.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 17:40   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
How is that honour though? Honour implies something objective and real. This an online game in which a system of scoring points has been set-up to evaluate the performance of individuals over a set period of time. How in the name of god that can be objective is beyond me. Even more so in the interpretation of alliances' actions using an abstract system not agreed upon by all or even a majority of the users which once more depends on your interpretations of their actions. You're judging people based on an interpretation of an interpretation. I really don't see anything of value in that. Certainly not something to base concepts of honour and respect on.
I already agreed that the concept of honour and respect in Planetarion, are different from the ones on the battlefield. Yet, in the simple interaction between people in this game, in the actions they choose to make, or not to make; they act, and as such, they can act in a certain way. Be it 'with honour', or without.

Saying that 'respect' has nothing to do with pa is beyond me though, as it is exactly that, or the lack thereof which has often decided politics in this game. (Again, 'respect' here, and 'respect' in your example are different, but that does not mean they do not exist, in either of the cases)

If you want to continue this JonnyB, please pm me, we are getting a bit off topic here
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Unread 20 May 2003, 17:45   #34
Provider
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It aint going the good way if people already say that secret naps are okay. Is it so hard to try and keep yourself to your word.. At least try to work alone.

Saying now that secret naps are more or less okay is bull****.. it starts with that and in the end nothing will change and we are back to where we began when alliances decided to work alone.

it worries me when hc's already say now that they "doubt that others will stick to their word". Please show some trust in them as you trust your own word.

Else we will get excuses like.. "but we didn't trust them to stay alone so we already napped someone else because they will also"
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Unread 20 May 2003, 17:52   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
How is that honour though? Honour implies something objective and real. This an online game in which a system of scoring points has been set-up to evaluate the performance of individuals over a set period of time. How in the name of god that can be objective is beyond me. Even more so in the interpretation of alliances' actions using an abstract system not agreed upon by all or even a majority of the users which once more depends on your interpretations of their actions. You're judging people based on an interpretation of an interpretation. I really don't see anything of value in that. Certainly not something to base concepts of honour and respect on.
I think you miss the point. Honour is not something that can only be applied to certain situations. If you say you will do something, and you do, especially at loss to yourself, then you are being honourable. If the fleet someone has worked to build means something to them, and they lose it defending a friend, and they knew they would, then that IS honour. You talk about real to illustrate your point. Is meaning not real? Hence if something means something to someone, does it not have to be real? I would agree that honour has orders of magnitude, and that honour within PA is not up there with risking/losing your own life for someone, but WITHIN PA itself, losing your fleet is one of the most honourable things you can do. Things are all relative, and when discussing something like honour within PA, you must keep it relative to things within PA.

And your argument is effectively that it is something unimportant. I beg to differ, if someones fleet is important to them, then it is honorable of them to knowingly lose it in defence of a friend.

Real is not just what you can touch and see, as if it were, emotions would not be real. Are you going to deny their relevance?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 17:56   #36
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Also, if people want r9.5 to be blockless, then why not create a "Great Convention" - i.e. get major HC together, and get them to publicly commit to twating any alliance that blocks. If it is done in public, in front of the members, it should work, unless the HC want to get hell from the members.

That way, as soon as any alliance is shown to be blocking, the rest of the universe will twat them in an instant.

Though I suspect this is wishful thinking, both in thinking it might happen, and in thinking that it might work, as it would require all HC to be commited to it, and I doubt that they are.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 17:59   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Provider
It aint going the good way if people already say that secret naps are okay. Is it so hard to try and keep yourself to your word.. At least try to work alone.
OK, let's imagine that Eclipse are winning r9.5. Would it be wrong for WP and Virus to make an agreement to take them down together?

Totally hypothetical example, I just want to know what you think about it.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 18:00   #38
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Auld?

Quote:
Originally posted by Anihilat0r
'NAR' ceased to exist a long time ago and I doubt any of the associated alliances will be involved with each other in round 9.5 or round 10.
Would that include ND and ETY breaking up Auld?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 18:02   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by ComradeRob
OK, let's imagine that Eclipse are winning r9.5. Would it be wrong for WP and Virus to make an agreement to take them down together?

Totally hypothetical example, I just want to know what you think about it.
I think his point was relating to alliances starting out allied. That is really the block situation. Agreeing to take an alliance down mid-round is not quite the same as it never starts off with the same level of cooperation, and the aim is different also.

Mid round "blocks" tend to be formed on a "Stop such and such" winning basis. Pre-round "blocks" tend to be formed on a basis od "Let's win this together". The differences are quite subtle, but the relationship is entirely different, as is the coordination and the aims.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 18:08   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bashar
I think you miss the point. Honour is not something that can only be applied to certain situations. If you say you will do something, and you do, especially at loss to yourself, then you are being honourable. If the fleet someone has worked to build means something to them, and they lose it defending a friend, and they knew they would, then that IS honour. You talk about real to illustrate your point. Is meaning not real? Hence if something means something to someone, does it not have to be real? I would agree that honour has orders of magnitude, and that honour within PA is not up there with risking/losing your own life for someone, but WITHIN PA itself, losing your fleet is one of the most honourable things you can do. Things are all relative, and when discussing something like honour within PA, you must keep it relative to things within PA.

And your argument is effectively that it is something unimportant. I beg to differ, if someones fleet is important to them, then it is honorable of them to knowingly lose it in defence of a friend.

Real is not just what you can touch and see, as if it were, emotions would not be real. Are you going to deny their relevance?
My point is that you're introducing something contextual to reality into an arena wholly unsuited for it. The interactions between people in Planetarion have an affect, I did not deny this. However the only affect they have is that which we choose to let them have. Your initial example of honour is not about honour either, it's about truth and falsity. Honour is following an expected code which isn't obligatory but which everyone follows out of common interest. How this can apply to a game in which common interest does not operate is beyond me.

How can PA have meaning? You can't just claim that something is honourable without offering proof that it is. I could say that stealing roids from players at the outer edge of your cap is honourable. Who is to say it isn't? How do social conventions defined by human society operate somewhere which by it's very being is different? It's real as it affects you, and each individual. However it doesn't affect all of us the same. Honour simply cannot operate in a system such as this.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 18:24   #41
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Personally I think blocking will be difficult as random players from random alliances will be placed in galaxys together... But we will obviously see alliance att/def fleet strikes I'm sure...

blocking is dependent upon combining the block alliance members - and with galaxys so mixed it becomes a power struggle within' each galaxy...So I expect blocking will be limited outside of fencesitters who go with the best powermonging groups anyway.. Pity the fencesitters can't do strategy themselves -- lol

So Stay Tuned Kiddies!~ This ones gonna be a killer!~

Hope I end up with some real players that can take the lumps as well as dish em' out~!

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Unread 20 May 2003, 19:17   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyBGood
My point is that you're introducing something contextual to reality into an arena wholly unsuited for it. The interactions between people in Planetarion have an affect, I did not deny this. However the only affect they have is that which we choose to let them have. Your initial example of honour is not about honour either, it's about truth and falsity. Honour is following an expected code which isn't obligatory but which everyone follows out of common interest. How this can apply to a game in which common interest does not operate is beyond me.

How can PA have meaning? You can't just claim that something is honourable without offering proof that it is. I could say that stealing roids from players at the outer edge of your cap is honourable. Who is to say it isn't? How do social conventions defined by human society operate somewhere which by it's very being is different? It's real as it affects you, and each individual. However it doesn't affect all of us the same. Honour simply cannot operate in a system such as this.
My god, you really are clueless. You are essentially saying that human nature is different within PA, and this is blatant crap. Human nature is the same wherever humans are. Alliances are proof of this!

Also, when you mentions my initial example of honour, I get this strange feeling that you are referring to someone elses initial example of honour.

Further to this, your very own definition of honour suggests that honour is a major part of PA, the wording is practically perferct for describing defending allies. It is expected, but not obligatory, and it is done from a common interest. After all, after people have lost any chance of winning, they still hang around to make the alliance as strong as possible, and that is a common interest (I admit that not all people do this, some people run to a different alliance that is winning, these people are dishonourable). Your own definition disproves your point.

How can PA have meaning? - Simple - people put time and effort into it, they don't want to see it go to waste. They have friends in PA, some people even have friends they have made through PA that are very good friends in real life. PA is not just a game, it is a community, and that is what matters. The game holds the community together, and is a common factor for the community. As such, it has a lot of meaning. It might not have meaning to you, and in which case, I question your being here, as surely you should just play, and not interact in the community. Also, if people don't work to a common goal, then nobody would be in an alliance, they have common goals.

From your post, I am willing to suggest that you don't play PA in the same way as others, and if you are in an alliance, then I am quite willing to bet you are a crap member. I know for a fact that I wouldn't want somebody like you in my alliance. PA may not be the real world, but it is a near perfect microcosm of the real world. I don't really understand where your views come from, unless of course you are one of these true individuals that doesn't know what it means to be part of a team.
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Unread 21 May 2003, 00:21   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Whis
As someone already said in this thread there will never be a round where every alliance will fend for itself, even in this 9.5 there will be NAPs & other agreements. You just won't know about them (unless they're leaked or when it's too late). I think this sort of a situation is worse than what we had in some previous rounds (r8 for instance).

Hell, if any alliance went along with no naps, they'd be pretty stupid. There will still be blocks, and one will be dominant. Its a fact of planetarion.
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Unread 21 May 2003, 07:29   #44
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with all teh changes within virus at the present, and recent past, we feel it would be best for us to be alone for 9.5 to test ourselves and see what we need ect ect

we wont be in any sort of block for 9.5 (Put this in your thready thingy Jester)
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Unread 21 May 2003, 08:27   #45
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Unread 21 May 2003, 09:16   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by TeraHertz
Hell, if any alliance went along with no naps, they'd be pretty stupid. There will still be blocks, and one will be dominant. Its a fact of planetarion.
I'm glad you aint an HC else pa will never change.
And as pa is atm it aint going good. that's something we all (but you I reckon) have to agree on.

And comraderob. Bashar kinda answered your question. If one alliance (or maybe "secret block" [let's hope there wont be any]) is way dominant and alone already domination the universe then it might be needed to work together with others (read work together.. not allie them). Simply to keep the fun going.

Let our first goal ( as HC's ) be to start this round alone. No secret naps, no secret partners. If every HC has the honour to keep himself to his own word and that of his alliance then we should be okay.

I do hope that the list in the thread that jester started about alliances going alone will grow a lil.
I'm missing some alliances.. nos, ely, hirr, rock, TFD, Templar, Vengeance, auld (or nd, ety.. depends if you guys finally decide to merge or stay single.. if you stay single, act single).
But also any new alliance which we all aint that aware of yet.. Nepthys for example.
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rnd 3: If I only could remember - GIA HC/TGS
rnd 4: [30:14:3] (smurfs) - Fury/TGS HC || rnd 5: [21:4:16] (gauls) - TGS HC / WPO
rnd 6: [1:2:4] (LotR) - WP HC || rnd 7: [22:8:9] - WP HC
rnd 8: [55:8:9] - WP HC || rnd 9: [11:10:8] - WP HC || rnd 9,5: [x:y:z] -
WP HC rnd 10,11,12 etc cant be assed anymore to write it down here.
rnd 35, 36. 37: ND

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Unread 21 May 2003, 13:17   #47
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Yes what about nepthys Wipeout?


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Unread 22 May 2003, 03:52   #48
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I've never thought of powerblocks as evil. I've been on the losing side and the winning side of powerblocks, and I've never thought of them as the actual reason for stagnation, and I've never believed the arguments against blocking.

I think that when people (more than likely people who are not leaders of alliances) have problems with blocks, its more of an excuse as to why they are bored (if they are winning) or why they lost (if they are losing).

I've always enjoyed blocking, especially at the start of the round, for the political manoevering. I wouldn't see much more of a reason myself of playing pa if the creators neuter that aspect of the game.
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Unread 22 May 2003, 06:18   #49
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Wow theres still power blocks in this game ? O_o
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Unread 22 May 2003, 10:37   #50
Provider
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Quote:
Originally posted by Provider

I do hope that the list in the thread that jester started about alliances going alone will grow a lil.
I'm missing some alliances.. nos, hirr, rock, TFD, Templar, Vengeance, auld (or nd, ety.. depends if you guys finally decide to merge or stay single.. if you stay single, act single).
But also any new alliance which we all aint that aware of yet.. Nepthys for example.
hmm no response yet from these alliances..

/me waits

*kicks thread up*
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rnd 3: If I only could remember - GIA HC/TGS
rnd 4: [30:14:3] (smurfs) - Fury/TGS HC || rnd 5: [21:4:16] (gauls) - TGS HC / WPO
rnd 6: [1:2:4] (LotR) - WP HC || rnd 7: [22:8:9] - WP HC
rnd 8: [55:8:9] - WP HC || rnd 9: [11:10:8] - WP HC || rnd 9,5: [x:y:z] -
WP HC rnd 10,11,12 etc cant be assed anymore to write it down here.
rnd 35, 36. 37: ND

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