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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 08:02   #1
HobbieRogue4
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Elected Officials?

Well, it's currently election season here in the United States, and my own state is having quite a number of "tight races." As I'm supposed to look at the issues and decided on a candidate - the lesser of two (or more) evils - something AD-related just occurred to me:

Have there ever been any established alliances in PA that have had "elected" leadership? For example, an HC elected by the alliance membership base?

I suppose "leaders choosing more leaders" would count, but I'm talking "for the people, by the people" type elections...

P.S. I'm trying to generate a good ol' fashioned thread, containing a wide-range of opinions that could arise from cut-throat politics and attack ads.

P.P.S. Pete Coors eats babies.
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 08:55   #2
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Re: Elected Officials?

not that I know of off the top of my head, but then again I am mostly clueless about most things
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 09:58   #3
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Re: Elected Officials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helix
...but then again I am mostly clueless about most things
hehe

I dont know of any elected leadership for any alliance either actually. Wouldnt it just promote members siding with their 'favorite' HC and doing things like Seraphim splitting from ViruS in round 9?
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 10:37   #4
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Re: Elected Officials?

never heard of anything like that happening before.
and... what would stop anyone from manipulating the vote if there ever was one?
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 11:36   #5
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Re: Elected Officials?

Yes the SWaRM HC's are elected by all the members
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 11:46   #6
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Re: Elected Officials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HobbieRogue4
Well, it's currently election season here in the United States, and my own state is having quite a number of "tight races." As I'm supposed to look at the issues and decided on a candidate - the lesser of two (or more) evils - something AD-related just occurred to me:

Have there ever been any established alliances in PA that have had "elected" leadership? For example, an HC elected by the alliance membership base?

I suppose "leaders choosing more leaders" would count, but I'm talking "for the people, by the people" type elections...

P.S. I'm trying to generate a good ol' fashioned thread, containing a wide-range of opinions that could arise from cut-throat politics and attack ads.

P.P.S. Pete Coors eats babies.
The thing is, Elections often aren't 100% from the pple by the pple. Often the pple get to chose between some candidates who are presented by a certain party.

So in that context, it's be like an institution presents 4-5 pple and the members of that alliance can chose which of those pple can be the leader. But what alliance has such an institution that presents those pple? And doesn't that mean that the institute is like the HC itself and just asks the pple who of them should be the alliance leader?

I think it's nearly impossible and certainly hardly ever done before (aside from swarm so it seems) that 100 pple get a fair chance and can all be chosen so that the command is 100% pple's choice (meaning pple can vote whoever they want, not the few pple that were presented).

Nway that's my opinion about this.
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 14:00   #7
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Re: Elected Officials?

BlueTuba until early round 3 had elected HC - until the members decided to abolish it .
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 14:10   #8
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Re: Elected Officials?

i dont even know if thats a good idea. if you got an alliance with 100 people it could be a problem that those who want to be elected create groups to get their voices. it might be dangerous for infights etc.

if you compare it to "real" elections where the different parties make each other sound bad it wouldnt be good for an alliance if they fight inside against each other.
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 14:29   #9
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Re: Elected Officials?

Its worked fine at SWaRM ever since we started it in PA R4.

Election rules are:
1) Only Swarmcore Officer/Senior Officer may put their name forward as candidate for the HC position.

2) Candidates put their name forward in the "Candidates Signup Here" thread.

3) The candidates will be given a minimum of 2 days to campaign while we at the same time make a board were all members (Recruit rank to HC) can place questions that the candidates must answer. This board is called "HC Election Questions". Candidates that do not answer within given time limit will be deleted from the election. A 24 hour warning will be issued before the board is closed and voting begins.

4) Only Swarmcore rank and above have the right to vote. The voting will last 2 days (48 hours).

5) If a candidate gets over (!) 50% of the votes, he/she is the winner. If not, then the top 2 (or 3 if a tie) are placed in a runoff vote. This vote will be open 2 days (48 hours).

(Swarmcore rank = a trusted, fullpledged junior member)

The voting is held at a secure website outside our main webby. All Swarmcore and higher ranked must sign-up there, rank checked before being accepted. All voters are given Swarmcore rank at that webby. There is only one HC given HCadmin access to deal with the sign-ups. Believe me, if there is anything that can indicate manipulation of the votes, the voting is abandoned and this HC is in alot of trouble so guess you understand that the chances for manipulation is extrememly small.
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 14:32   #10
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Re: Elected Officials?

Fury did.

You elected to obey Sid or left the alliance.

Thats a freedom of choice isn't it?
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 14:41   #11
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Re: Elected Officials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zh|l
Fury did.

You elected to obey Sid or left the alliance.

Thats a freedom of choice isn't it?
Indeed !
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 14:52   #12
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Re: Elected Officials?

Expanding upon this, didnt Legion elect new HC by just splitting off into new alliances? (lololol)
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 15:09   #13
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Re: Elected Officials?

nos/lux in round 5 was the result of a sort of vote.
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 17:42   #14
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Re: Elected Officials?

The Swarm process seems genuinely interesting to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
The thing is, Elections often aren't 100% from the pple by the pple. Often the pple get to chose between some candidates who are presented by a certain party.

So in that context, it's be like an institution presents 4-5 pple and the members of that alliance can chose which of those pple can be the leader. But what alliance has such an institution that presents those pple? And doesn't that mean that the institute is like the HC itself and just asks the pple who of them should be the alliance leader?[/b]
Well yes, obviously. I mean to say, the only "institution" is the alliance itself. It would be to say that it's always the "Reform Party" who puts forth candidates for HC, to be voted on by "Reform Party members." The distinction there would be the issues presented by the candidates and their own abilities to lead, popularity, etc. Now the only differance to this would be an alliance comprised of multiple sub-entities, such as what HowlingRain was to WolfPack, in that the HR group puts forth an HR member to be in the WP leadership, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zh|l
Expanding upon this, didnt Legion elect new HC by just splitting off into new alliances? (lololol)
Oooh, no, as the Legion HC stayed relatively intact while the "switch" occurred through departure as it were.

As far as I'm aware, during Round 3 and beyond, HC were put into position by those already in HC spots, not by the masses (which, to some respect, was a better way; Legion remains today).
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 17:48   #15
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Re: Elected Officials?

Wasnt Petru sacked by a sort of "popular uprising" ?
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 17:56   #16
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Re: Elected Officials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Wasnt Petru sacked by a sort of "popular uprising" ?
That's smashing what really happened into tiny little bits. In any event, it has nothing to do with "electing" anyone, heh.
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 19:24   #17
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Re: Elected Officials?

how could an election work for HC.
what swarm is doing is nice, but not every1 can be HC (only officers) so that makes it already not a real election if you ask me :\
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 20:08   #18
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Re: Elected Officials?

HobbieRogue4 on AD, wow, when did you return!? Could this be the start of AD becoming interesting again?

Anyway, not sure where you got;
Quote:
Now the only differance to this would be an alliance comprised of multiple sub-entities, such as what HowlingRain was to WolfPack, in that the HR group puts forth an HR member to be in the WP leadership, etc.
HR has never been inside WP or had any real history with them, the only thing similar is ofc the wolf theme. I dont know WPs history but HR was created in Round2 as a squad but it wasnt until late round2 when its status changed to Alliance. I was always under the impression we got the wolf theme before WP but im sure some1 will post sayin otherwise

(you can read here for our history page dating to Round2).

Back to topic, i admire Swarms Election system, certainly has some balls to it for giving members some real high ranking goals. I think such consistant elections for HC are problematic though, it could leave some members bitter and take away thier energy into helping things, if they werent selected. Not sure if swarm have experienced this?
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 20:28   #19
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Re: Elected Officials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
HR has never been inside WP or had any real history with them, the only thing similar is ofc the wolf theme. I dont know WPs history but HR was created in Round2 as a squad but it wasnt until late round2 when its status changed to Alliance. I was always under the impression we got the wolf theme before WP but im sure some1 will post sayin otherwise
I`m sure he meant NoS :-)
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 20:38   #20
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Re: Elected Officials?

Could be, could be, although he wouldnt be the first to make this mistake:E

Quote:
such as what HowlingRain was to NoS, in that the HR group puts forth an HR member to be in the NoS leadership, etc
This was arranged by default though, there wasnt any kind of vote, it was just the head HC at the time.
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Unread 20 Oct 2004, 21:07   #21
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Re: Elected Officials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zh|l
Fury did.

You elected to obey Sid or left the alliance.

Thats a freedom of choice isn't it?
Expanding

Alliances themselves are the 'political parties'. One votes by joining. Very few people are willing to put in the effort to be a quality HC for the long term, those that are form their own groups, much like a major politician will have his circle of advisors, you select your group based on the leadership.
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Unread 21 Oct 2004, 09:19   #22
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Re: Elected Officials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Henck
how could an election work for HC.
what swarm is doing is nice, but not every1 can be HC (only officers) so that makes it already not a real election if you ask me :\
I think you'll find that our elected officials on the most part are from an elite group in our society and are not chosen from the masses. Surely that makes the Swarm elections pretty much like any other?

Another alliance that had elections was TWD or The White Dragons, but both alliances were made by pretty much the same people.
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Unread 21 Oct 2004, 15:32   #23
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Re: Elected Officials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Mace
Could this be the start of AD becoming interesting again?
I doubt it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treveler
I`m sure he meant NoS :-)
Heh, I litterally sat for like three minutes trying to decide between "WP" or "NoS" and "Howling" vs. "Hard," that's how out of touch I am with history... I'm sorely rusty in this respect.

Anyway, it was just an example; it seemed to fit better than say, VeA to Legion, or Wrath to Fruity.
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Unread 22 Oct 2004, 05:40   #24
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Re: Elected Officials?

well let's take it a step further...... lets say you had to elect a PA government.......who would your candidates be, and why

1. president (overall player from any alliance to lead your government)

2. vice president (assuming the presidential candidate would chose his running mate)

3. Governors (each alliance is a state, who would be your candidates, who would win)

3. Senators (4 people from each state)

just something to do while your waiting for a tick I spose, not intended to create flames
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Unread 22 Oct 2004, 13:26   #25
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Re: Elected Officials?

LOOOOO hobbles, you must be covered in AD-cobwebs :)


lol you still got that Petal thing in your sig, he's gonna get emotional if he sees that :o)
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Unread 22 Oct 2004, 14:16   #26
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Re: Elected Officials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aviendha
LOOOOO hobbles, you must be covered in AD-cobwebs


lol you still got that Petal thing in your sig, he's gonna get emotional if he sees that )
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Unread 23 Oct 2004, 01:14   #27
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Re: Elected Officials?

I dont think anyone would have voted for any other HC in HR right now

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Unread 23 Oct 2004, 05:00   #28
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Re: Elected Officials?

Round 1, c7r was basically run Town Hall style, in that everyone had a voice, and decisions were made collectively. Sid was a prime mover in establishing the alliance and never made a stupid decision, and so had gained the trust of the others.

Round 2, Fury leadership were the most active 2 GCs from c7r, Ghengis and Sid, plus Cyclone who brought her alliance to the table and merged in. These three were supposedly equally ranked. Again Sid had a track record of making the right decisions and getting things done. At some point Cyclone pissed off leading into:

Round 3: which suddenly becomes relevant to the discussion, as at the start, Sid announced that he would be directly taking the reigns to get things started. If anyone wanted to run Fury, they had but to announce their candidacy and an election would be held. Nobody took him up on the offer.. and like any good tightly run dictatorship, the last vestiges of democracy were quickly forgotten.


There just isn't any place for a true democracy in a PA alliance, and the reasons are thus:
1) Its more important to make the right decision than the popular one.
2) People vote with their feet. If you're pissed that Bush wins its a lot harder for you to move to Canada than to leave Absolute for LCH. Generally speaking, alliance loyalty rates seem to be at an all time low.

(proceeding on tangent rant) There are those who belong to the cores of each alliance, but there's a large and growing group of people who drift between alliances as it become convenient. These people will constantly jockey for position in the winning alliance, and have no problem dropping a struggling institution for one they feel is better. Thus they have no incentive to wait for the next "election" or work within some kind of "system" to make the alliance better.
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Unread 24 Oct 2004, 12:56   #29
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Re: Elected Officials?

Templar comes in mind.. They elected their hc every round.
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Unread 24 Oct 2004, 16:54   #30
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Re: Elected Officials?

First of all: an interesting subject which I have thought about(after all most ppl in real world prefer democracy compared to dictatorship) sometime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
I think it's nearly impossible and certainly hardly ever done before (aside from swarm so it seems) that 100 pple get a fair chance and can all be chosen so that the command is 100% pple's choice (meaning pple can vote whoever they want, not the few pple that were presented).
Well, as in real world, there probably aren't 100 that want to become HC, but instead just those that want to become HC candidate. Ofc all (inside the alliance) would have to have the chance to candidate, but that could simply be done by a thread in a forum (where everyone could write themselves up).

noteable:
  • Money is a big issue in the real world when it's elections (to reach the voters), but in such an election as this it probably wouldn't play a big role. U can reach members through IRC or forum.If u have the rules that a candidate is not allowed to "bribe" players (paying for their accounts or likewise) then money would play no role. Instead...
  • Time would play a big role (time to talk to members, write in forums, say what they want to do), but all potential HCs should have time (after all it takes quite some time to be HC).
  • Popularity would play a big role as well, and this is a negative side-effect as a HC would be bound to make popular decisions to be re-elected (as already written by somone). It's not always that the right decision is the popular, so wrong decisions might be made.
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Unread 25 Oct 2004, 00:04   #31
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Re: Elected Officials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyroka
First of all: an interesting subject which I have thought about(after all most ppl in real world prefer democracy compared to dictatorship) sometime.
Actually most people in the world don't really want democracy all that much. They want a lot of other things first. They want to be safe, they want food, they want money (either through hand outs or employment), they want these things for their families.

The problem comes when people feel, justly or unjustly, that these things aren't provided, and they want a change in leadership. This is where democracy comes in. Instead of a bloody revolution once every 25 or 50 years, there is a peaceful changeover every 4-8. (or whatever)

In Planetarion terms, these days, basically people want a community of friends, new asteroids and defence of old asteroids. There are revolutions now and again if a leader can't adequately provide, but generally its far easier just to wander over to another alliance or start your own. There's very little cost to do so.
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Unread 25 Oct 2004, 23:01   #32
Tyroka
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Re: Elected Officials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cayl
In Planetarion terms, these days, basically people want a community of friends, new asteroids and defence of old asteroids. There are revolutions now and again if a leader can't adequately provide, but generally its far easier just to wander over to another alliance or start your own. There's very little cost to do so.
Some say so, I don't understand them. I won't start to flame you but I wonder if u've been part of any alliance for lets say 3 rounds straight? For me, it would mean quite a lot cost... I don't play the games so much for the fun of the game but as for fun in my alliance. Maybe I could leave Rock in one game, but surely not in all games I play.

But that was off-topic and the other points in your post are valid. Ppl don't care about democracy, but wan't safety and all that and they also want to feel that they can change things (just the right to vote gives a little feel of that). Sometimes surely members get frustrated because they can't change things (they can then become officers or they can as u suggest hop alliance).
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Unread 26 Oct 2004, 04:52   #33
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Re: Elected Officials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyroka
I won't start to flame you but I wonder if u've been part of any alliance for lets say 3 rounds straight?
rofl. some would argue cayl has been in the same alliance since round 1
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Unread 26 Oct 2004, 05:04   #34
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Re: Elected Officials?

Lets just say I've always ridden under the same general if not the same flag.


I refer to a lack of the loyal spirit you seem to show, not because I lack it, but find it lacking in today's game.
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Unread 26 Oct 2004, 06:04   #35
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Re: Elected Officials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cayl
Lets just say I've always ridden under the same general if not the same flag.


I refer to a lack of the loyal spirit you seem to show, not because I lack it, but find it lacking in today's game.
Except really it's only two different flags :P
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Unread 29 Oct 2004, 13:14   #36
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Re: Elected Officials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cayl
I refer to a lack of the loyal spirit you seem to show, not because I lack it, but find it lacking in today's game.
There we agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tis
rofl. some would argue cayl has been in the same alliance since round 1
He can't have been seeing he's in 1up now
tho might have been with the same ppl (more or less) but still not same alliance.


btw, I do not keep record of which ppl are in which alliance and so on, intel has never really interested me.
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Unread 5 Nov 2004, 22:59   #37
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Re: Elected Officials?

There was an alliance in round 4, called HC (Head Command, iirc), that used democratic elections. They were mostly in p17, though - not very well known expect for those who kept tabs on what happened there.
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Unread 5 Nov 2004, 23:41   #38
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Re: Elected Officials?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyroka

He can't have been seeing he's in 1up now
tho might have been with the same ppl (more or less) but still not same alliance.
I believe i said 'some would say' referring to the 'omg!!!? 1up == eclipse == fury' muppets.

Try to understand the original post, before trying to think of clever responses to it.
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