A slight problem with balance perhaps?

[Still Sober]

Here's a fun exercise for you - go through the top 100 planets and see how the races are represented.

Better still, I'll save you the boredom and tell you roughly what you will find (it does vary slightly from tick to tick).

Zikonian 70
Xandathrii 19
Cathaar 9
Terran 3

Nice to see things are all fair and equitable again this round. Gosh, I love this game sometimes.

[Cochese]

Zik are "too good" this round just like Xan were "too good" last round.

They'll probably over-compensate Cath next round.

[Leshy]

Just stick to one race, and you'll do well once every four rounds

[MotoX]

Doesn’t we have Beta for those things? If so how can it be so?

[mist]

havn't looked at the stats yet

however, it's what, a week in to the round? seems as though people should still be researching and such to me, and therefore just because a race is doing well now doesn't mean it'll be doing well in a week - people might have researched ships to counter it by then, or simply built fleets that're better against it

you also neglected to mention the overall racial balance

then again, the game could be unbalanced :P

-mist

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by mist

havn't looked at the stats yet

however, it's what, a week in to the round? seems as though people should still be researching and such to me, and therefore just because a race is doing well now doesn't mean it'll be doing well in a week - people might have researched ships to counter it by then, or simply built fleets that're better against it

you also neglected to mention the overall racial balance

then again, the game could be unbalanced :P

-mist

CR/BS are (and have already been) flying around the universe...so there's nothing left to research except the last one or two traveltime reductions, that would have any impact.

Zik was over-tweaked, simple as.

[Still Sober]

Are you volunteering Mist? I look forward to the results, should be fascinating. How many days do you think it will take you to go through the entire universe? lol

[mist]

given the time it took me to see your post, i'd go with about 5 minutes...

Terran 1010 (29%)
Cathaar 508 (15%)
Xandathrii 1014 (30%)
Zikonian 843 (24%)

i'd like to take this oppertunity to thank my beautiful assistant

-mist

[Forest]

Zik was decent last round.

[Still Sober]

Thanks for that Mist.
So people, see if you can spot anything not quite right from these figures.

Universe Distribution:
Terran 1010 (29%)
Cathaar 508 (15%)
Xandathrii 1014 (30%)
Zikonian 843 (24%)

Top 100 distribution:
Terran 3 (3%)
Cathaar 9 (9%)
Xandathrii 18 (18%)
Zikonian 70 (70%)

And the inevitable conclusion therefore? The PA team have done it again and made a wonderful, balanced and fair round for us all to enjoy. Whoopeeeeee!

[mist]

still no guarentee the round'll end that way

-mist

[Helix]

Well, the Terran will definitely not end in the top100 cath will have a chance to climb up a bit, not many xan will be able to. The end will be with either the same or less xan, less terran, perhaps more cath in the top100.

the problem with the zikonian being overpowered was a result of them changing the zik to co pods at the last minute. Doing so gave zikonian a great early round advantage. They were able to roid very easily from just about anyone, and cap lots of roids in the process. This made them quite large and we have the result that we have right now. I am still curious as to why pa team decided to change the stats when I was told multiple time "The stats are fine I see no reason to change it"

[noah02]

Well when lots more ppl pick lots more of one race and get lots more roiding ships straight away before most ppl then of course they is gonna be more dominant(I can't spell ok) if everyone was Terran there would be more terran in the top 100
But then again Terrans always come last.
To traditional for PA's liking to be actually good just hard ships.

[Kal]

zik is now fixed as per the motd, there was a subversion bug which overpowered them, so now is the time to go and take out thoose nasty ziks

[jerome]

That bug had nothing to do with what overpowered them ....... do you not see that? ..

and to just quote a post of mine elsewhere:

"ziks have totally got this round around their finger imho,
xands main targs -> terrans = all suck and will never have enough roids to keep xands happy. once ziks/caths get guardians/rogues their pretty dry
caths -> the huge lack of caths because of the huge number of terrans will mean, there will be more anti-cr than cr itself around, and in the end, the cr attacks will be proven pointless because of the mere plausibility of totally outflakking even if roaches+widows are involved in an attack, but clearly the 2nd best race atm, as they can still roid fat xands and ziks
ziks -> zik v zik will be cute
terrans -> their targs = caths & other terrans, 1] any reasonable sized terrans will be hounded by xands/ziks .. and caths are in exquisitely poor amount of numbers.

this round will be nice and fun(!) when;
there is so much thieves and maurauders about to make ziks attacks frustratingly poor
there is a lack of big caths when there is so much pirates/bombers/scarabs to even outflak widows and roaches in defence heh
there are more or less a huge lack of targs for xands when terrans die. they`ll be forced to live off an "take reasonable-stretching it losses for roids' campaign."


I suspect my simple suggestion of making race roiding going as such:
Terran -> Cathaar/Xandathrii-with de or whatever early-round/Zikonian
Cathaar -> Cathaar/Zikonian/Xandathrii/Terran-Early round
Xandathrii -> Zikonian/Terran-with fi/co fleet for early round/Cathaar early-round
Zikoanian -> Zikonian/Cathaar/Terran/Xandathrii-early round
or something to truly make it a "fair" universe.. and a flowing universe, as limiting terran and xand targets so badly is just plain dumb, even worse is the fact that you STILL give one of the kill races an utter control over the other, will mean a definite advantage for the race.

ps. if the stats weren`t changed so damn frequently because of some random fools in beta whining because they didn`t understand how to def or understand that all beta did was show what race owned early round, maybe they would have been a bit better "equally".


ps [2] - my money is on cath or terran will be the best race by far next round.

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by mist

havn't looked at the stats yet

however, it's what, a week in to the round? seems as though people should still be researching and such to me, and therefore just because a race is doing well now doesn't mean it'll be doing well in a week - people might have researched ships to counter it by then, or simply built fleets that're better against it
-mist

uhm well.. zik BS is kinda too good aswell, so dont see ur point

PA team screwed up everything they could this round

[Cochese]

I'm going with option b aswell.

[Bashar]

Stats are unbalanced. Zik are far too powerful (and I am Zik). Zik Corvettes are just unstoppable until DE/CR. And a Zik can't efficiently roid a zik either, as the thief is so powerful, each one kills more than one other thief.

I dunno what went wrong with the stats, but I think the balancing this round is possibly the worst I have ever seen. I cannot see that any race could take the domination off Ziks, as soon most Ziks will be able to attack with CO or CR/BS, and both attack types are formidable.

[Cochese]

The issue with Thieves is utterly hilarious. Goes to show whomever did the stats is brainless.

All in favor of r11 stats with reasonable (and warranted) tweaks?

heh.

[jerome]

why didn`t you people whine with me when i first whined :/

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_

why didn`t you people whine with me when i first whined :/

I was busy coding something for you to test.

[Agerus]

I dunno what went wrong with the stats, but I think the balancing this round is possibly the worst I have ever seen. I cannot see that any race could take the domination off Ziks, as soon most Ziks will be able to attack with CO or CR/BS, and both attack types are formidable.

I couldn't agree more...

[Cochese]

Originally Posted by _ryzekiel_

why didn`t you people whine with me when i first whined :/

Too busy working to mess with the beta, otherwise I would have.

[Inca]

I wasn't here for the beta's but as far as i know the ziks quite easily won them? I am not sure when but i think it was after the beta's that the zik pod changed to corvette. Not to put too finer point on it but a race that dominates beta's surely perhaps shouldn't get more boosts?

With regards to player spread i do think a lot of "better" players pick cath and zik, partly cause of stats but also cause if played well they can overpower other races. I would say newer players especially with cath struggle tremendously. I'd say most new players pick terran, further making it impossible for small caths, but also meaning despite 30% terrans there are so few in decent alliances and those that are have been raped by big xans. Again keeping on the track of current situations, with zik have the cutlass which with eta in mind is an awesome anti-fi, quite simply xans are struggling. This is helping cath who i don't think are particularly powerful but they are the one race who can easily hit ziks, and thats about all that is keeping things in balance.

The corvette pod in particular has caused the problems. A lot of zik have gone for eta-4 before even considering bs, this has meant that the only people that can defend (out of gal) are cath beetle and zik thieve (finally DC's have realised vash are not a realistic option). With 95% of caths rushing for bs/cr very few can compete eta wise, so your left with ziks defending ziks. As some1 already said the thieve has higher offence than defence so it does make attacks very deadly and deters defenders.

I don't disagree ziks are overpowered, but i do think alliances and players alike are partly to blame for this. If people have realised that ziks are overpowered maybe gear alliance defence around them instead of whining?

Whatever happens 1 race will always be overpowered and this is often heightened by the choices the better players make, its not was easy to say who is top100, because terrans for example there are so few in the top5 alliances it would be more of a suprise if they were in the top100.

It would be nice to know why zik pods were changed? but as i said i wasn't in the beta's so i can't really say much, but surely people's comments even back then suggested that ziks were powerful enough?

[Phil^]

mainly because there were a very vocal number in #beta who would not stop complaining about them

theres absolutely no way to please everyone stats-wise, and changes that were done to them during the beta were as a direct result of people complaining.
youve only yourselves to blame ultimately. Perhaps next time i`ll ignore the opinions of those who are vocal but then you`d complain that im ignoring changes to the stats and they`ll STILL be unbalanced in your opinions.

Also - a zik who has an inch of sense wouldnt roid another zik with anything other then a cr/bs fleet. Since its only a matter of numbers as to who wins there and there are no casualties.
the Pirate and Marauder both subvert, and both fire on the same initiative. All you have to do is send enough as flak for Raiders so that you'll have some left over, and you`ll get roids with no losses

For caths, all they need to do is attack a zik with a Roach, Black Widow and Hornet fleet. a zik on their own stands NO chance against it.

[jerome]

Originally Posted by Phil^

Also - a zik who has an inch of sense wouldnt roid another zik with anything other then a cr/bs fleet

Buccaneers+Cutlass etc? :/


The problem was Phil^, in beta you did change them to whining, but the whining wasn`t by people who were trying to look for a balanced set of stats ie. TheRat but others who wanted the stats their way so they could "win the beta!". I gave up trying to convince my own suggestions when I realised that there were very few of us, who didn`t care about "winning beta", especially since any moron would`ve been able to "own" regardless due to the difficulty of defending.

[Tis]

tbh, its not just the stats that makes the top 100 so unbalanced, but the fact that the skilled players had a chance to look at the stats and recognize that zik would be overpowered.

if people had been forced to signup with unknown stats, the t100 would, at this point anyway, be a great deal more even... tho zik power would undoubtedly come out as the round progressed.

[Cochese]

Not knowing the stats turns an educated choice into a lottery, and that's simply not fair.

The problem lies in the beta. You're never going to get an accurate test when there's 300 egocentrical kiddies playing a free speedround, and a handful of people actually doing something productive...and I guess in this case, being ignored.

[Inca]

Originally Posted by Cochese

Not knowing the stats turns an educated choice into a lottery, and that's simply not fair.

The problem lies in the beta. You're never going to get an accurate test when there's 300 egocentrical kiddies playing a free speedround, and a handful of people actually doing something productive...and I guess in this case, being ignored.

Agreed, until Pateam recognises the people that wanna help PA and not themselves, this and other "unbalanced decisions" will be made.

Most things i do try and defend pa team for, but i have to say on this issue i do place a little blame because i didn't play beta's but even a quick glance at the stats, i just dunno how they cudn't see zik as overpowered? did they act on the majority who were only out for themselves shouting "make zik better" or whatever? if so is there a chance some action could be taken on this to prevent it happening again?

My biggest problem with zik is every race has a nemesis, by it a ship or a race, whatever. Cath cruisers are owned by hydra, have several other frigates that hurt them, roach doesn't beat scarab and even with roach you open up a whole new world of targetting... etc.... powerful when used right? yes, overpowered? no. Same with most of the fleets, except for the zik corvette fleet which has no logical alliance defence. Yes tarans and other higher eta ships can own them, but with gal setup as it is you cannot rely on gal, its alliance and there is no alliance defender with the same eta as the ziks that is really useful. Beetles and Thieves are the only ones that come close and like i said earlier both have blatant weaknesses.

I do think these decisions, like a lot of others this round raise a lot of questions and while the answers aren't particularly important, i would say looking to the future is anything going to be learnt from this?

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by Phil^

mainly because there were a very vocal number in #beta who would not stop complaining about them

Don't be such a push-over then, involve some common sense.

Originally Posted by Phil^

theres absolutely no way to please everyone stats-wise, and changes that were done to them during the beta were as a direct result of people complaining.

You are not trying to PLEASE everyone, that is not the point, you are trying to get some BALANCED STATS. Simple as that, and it is a simple fact that somehow it failed.

Originally Posted by Phil^

youve only yourselves to blame ultimately. Perhaps next time i`ll ignore the opinions of those who are vocal but then you`d complain that im ignoring changes to the stats and they`ll STILL be unbalanced in your opinions.

I wasn't in beta, but all I can say is that somewhere, it went horrendously wrong in stats, and more so than it has ever done before in my view. Look how you used to decide stats, maybe think about using some of those ideas again.

[Shaithess]

Originally Posted by Forest

Zik was decent last round.

No they weren't

Sure, there were the subversion tactics etc when attacking which gave me plenty of success, but it took 2 fleetslots to hit a xan with these.

Terrans easily roided you with DE. Cath and Ziks easily roided you with CR (Not too bad atleast), and xans easily roided you with FR, throwing in some fireblades if ever you built corsairs. With these combos, each of the races could roid you for free. Roiding terrans back was impossible, roiding caths and ziks was possible with your slower ships, but there weren't any big ziks/caths who weren't in a strong enough gal/ally to get def against eta9 stuff, and xan-roiding was very resource intensive. I enjoyed the challenge, but it was so frustrating when a terran half my size could get 100% free roids from me, and when I had to wake up every few hours as I was getting waved incs once or twice a week, and random vultures hitting me about 10 nights in every 14. I think the final stats managed to speak for themselves.

[jerome]

Originally Posted by Shaithess

No they weren't

Sure, there were the subversion tactics etc when attacking which gave me plenty of success, but it took 2 fleetslots to hit a xan with these.

Terrans easily roided you with DE. Cath and Ziks easily roided you with CR (Not too bad atleast), and xans easily roided you with FR, throwing in some fireblades if ever you built corsairs. With these combos, each of the races could roid you for free. Roiding terrans back was impossible, roiding caths and ziks was possible with your slower ships, but there weren't any big ziks/caths who weren't in a strong enough gal/ally to get def against eta9 stuff, and xan-roiding was very resource intensive. I enjoyed the challenge, but it was so frustrating when a terran half my size could get 100% free roids from me, and when I had to wake up every few hours as I was getting waved incs once or twice a week, and random vultures hitting me about 10 nights in every 14. I think the final stats managed to speak for themselves.

Zik Co last round > *.

[Linkie]

If I could choose my race over again last round, I would definately have gone zik. They're corvette fleet could roid half the universe.

[Synthetic_Sid]

Originally Posted by Phil^

mainly because there were a very vocal number in #beta who would not stop complaining about them

theres absolutely no way to please everyone stats-wise, and changes that were done to them during the beta were as a direct result of people complaining.
youve only yourselves to blame ultimately. Perhaps next time i`ll ignore the opinions of those who are vocal but then you`d complain that im ignoring changes to the stats and they`ll STILL be unbalanced in your opinions.

I had the same thing when I was working on stats last round. The issue you have to realise is that the most vociferous players tend to be ones who have already decided what race they'll be - irrelevant of what the stats are - who are trying to get their race strengthened. When I was wroking on the stats, the majority of those complaining were xans - who felt that xan needed to be made stronger. I resisted the pressure from them: as it was clear to me that xan were already strong enough.

If you're going to continue with inviting just about anyone into the Betas then the very first thing you need to do is make race selection either random or assigned: so players are obliged to view the universe from a perspective other than that of their own personal favourite race. Of course a better option would be to run the betas with players who were actually willing to test properly - but then you run into problems of accusations of bias (if these aren't drawn evenly across alliances) and the problem of identifying who the suitable players actually are.

Before the betas even started for this round I predicted that cath/zik would end up as the best races - as I fully expected an overcompensation for those two races' perceived weakness last round. I wasn't too far off the mark in that.

[Forest]

Originally Posted by Shaithess

No they weren't

Sure, there were the subversion tactics etc when attacking which gave me plenty of success, but it took 2 fleetslots to hit a xan with these.

Terrans easily roided you with DE. Cath and Ziks easily roided you with CR (Not too bad atleast), and xans easily roided you with FR, throwing in some fireblades if ever you built corsairs. With these combos, each of the races could roid you for free. Roiding terrans back was impossible, roiding caths and ziks was possible with your slower ships, but there weren't any big ziks/caths who weren't in a strong enough gal/ally to get def against eta9 stuff, and xan-roiding was very resource intensive. I enjoyed the challenge, but it was so frustrating when a terran half my size could get 100% free roids from me, and when I had to wake up every few hours as I was getting waved incs once or twice a week, and random vultures hitting me about 10 nights in every 14. I think the final stats managed to speak for themselves.

I disagree.

Last round, there were many, many tactics that zik could attack, to ensure that defence was IMPOSSIBLE. I worked a lot on these tactics, but wasnt really in a position to use them because the enemy had more zik than my alliance and I would of got owned, and been powerless to stop them.

If more ppl had chosen zik, it would of been even more effective (and dare I say, overpowered), becaus ethere would be more zik ships floating around, making defence more stretched.

[The_Fish]

R7 stats were very balanced. Whoever did those stats should take a look for R13.

[Boogster]

Frankly, I thought last round's stats were relatively balanced - I'm with Cochese here. In any case, my round is ruined, along with anyone else who chose a race other than zik. It is simply impossible to succesfully roid a Zik with any sense, or defend against any similarily non-retarded Zik.