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Unread 30 Nov 2004, 20:58   #1
MAdnRisKy
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Please could we have access to the full PA code

or at least a definative list of what is and isn't possible in PA and how such systems and subsystems work. I ask because currently no such resource is available and it would be nice to know such things to avoid future confusion
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Unread 30 Nov 2004, 22:26   #2
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

thats not a option realy
publishing the PA code would mean lots and lots of new clones
this would not be something Jolt or PAteam want
also there are things in the game that are not ment to be calculated
:-)
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Unread 1 Dec 2004, 03:26   #3
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by xontas
thats not a option realy
publishing the PA code would mean lots and lots of new clones
this would not be something Jolt or PAteam want
also there are things in the game that are not ment to be calculated
:-)
i can honestly say im scared of your avater :S

also, u cant see the code as u would know how XP works.
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Unread 1 Dec 2004, 09:24   #4
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

*smiles
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Unread 1 Dec 2004, 10:18   #5
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

its possible more formulae would be published in the future, but never the full code. But there is also the ssue that even if we publish things they may not allways be uptodate, it takes a lot fo time to keep the manual up todate and thngs are bound to get missed from time to time.
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Unread 1 Dec 2004, 14:36   #6
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Yes kal it's just a shame when people get caught out by it and then get told they're trying to abuse the system when they complain about it. But then it's not like i'm saying anything new. had a long chat on IRC last night, I don't agree with PAteams reasons but I do understand them, and where they're coming from...
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Unread 1 Dec 2004, 15:36   #7
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil05
i can honestly say im scared of your avater :S

also, u cant see the code as u would know how XP works.

XP isn't very hard to figure out.

It is roughly (usually within 99%)

10 * roids_capped * (target_value / your_value)

where the value modifier is capped at a max of 2.
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Unread 1 Dec 2004, 20:48   #8
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

That code isn't worth the piece of paper it was written on anyway..
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Unread 1 Dec 2004, 21:46   #9
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Who uses paper anyways these days :/
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Unread 1 Dec 2004, 21:52   #10
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

if only i could see a way to make that in to a house of cards joke :/

-mist
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Unread 1 Dec 2004, 23:22   #11
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadar
That code isn't worth the piece of paper it was written on anyway..
Sometimes I ask myself why some ppl are playing so many rounds and still write such a crap...
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 03:34   #12
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
its possible more formulae would be published in the future, but never the full code. But there is also the ssue that even if we publish things they may not allways be uptodate, it takes a lot fo time to keep the manual up todate and thngs are bound to get missed from time to time.
Maybe use a Wiki form of documentation? I see more and more "software" projects use it for docs with success. I dunno if it would actually make the docs more complete or more up to date, but maybe it's worth thinking a bit about it? It doesn't seem like the docs are necessarily all that high a priority for PAteam, and I suppose there are many helpful people who'd happily do corrections etc when they spot them.
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 06:13   #13
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by General Martok
Who uses paper anyways these days :/
the pa server uses punch cards :/
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 08:10   #14
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eol
Maybe use a Wiki form of documentation? I see more and more "software" projects use it for docs with success. I dunno if it would actually make the docs more complete or more up to date, but maybe it's worth thinking a bit about it? It doesn't seem like the docs are necessarily all that high a priority for PAteam, and I suppose there are many helpful people who'd happily do corrections etc when they spot them.
That is a pretty cool idea. *support*
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 09:24   #15
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

This is where i show my ignorance, I have heard of wiki, but do not know exactly what it is, someone tell me pretty please
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 11:12   #16
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

The prime example of a successful wiki is by far the wikipedia. A wiki is basically just a collection of nodes linked together with key words that anyone can edit. Some wikis allow anonymous editing, others require login. A PA wiki could be seeded by the current manual. Allowing users to contribute would allow for strategy sections, tactics sections, alliance sections. All of which would (ideally) be kept up to date by players.
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 12:36   #17
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

In essence we could do somethign similar with the next round portal/passport. I woudl love to have strategy sections and so on, but I think the core manual needs to be controlled by us, though people are free to suggest improvements to it and often do.

On the subject of user content people are free to join the newsletter team and write columns for the portal - i believe there is for example a section on strategy.
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 12:47   #18
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
In essence we could do somethign similar with the next round portal/passport. I woudl love to have strategy sections and so on, but I think the core manual needs to be controlled by us, though people are free to suggest improvements to it and often do.
I think you completely missed the point.

Quote:
On the subject of user content people are free to join the newsletter team and write columns for the portal - i believe there is for example a section on strategy.
I still think you missed the point.
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 15:13   #19
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

i think the point is that in that no one wants to contribute things to what we have atm why woukd anyone want to contribute in another way.
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 15:39   #20
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
i think the point is that in that no one wants to contribute things to what we have atm why woukd anyone want to contribute in another way.
Convenience.

Check out this page on Wikis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki

*READ* that page. All of it. It answers your questions about what it is, why it stimulates the wish to contribute, how to deal with vandalism etc.

Some "special-purpose" wikis:

The ultronomicon, a wiki for the game Star Control 2.
The Gentoo Portage Wiki, a wiki for the Gentoo Linux distro.

And if you go for this idea, just use the MediaWiki software. Tried, tested, and pretty much guaranteed to be superior to whatever our parttime hobby PATeam programmers are going to be able to dish up in 2 weeks.
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 15:49   #21
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
i think the point is that in that no one wants to contribute things to what we have atm why woukd anyone want to contribute in another way.
Did you ever consider the fact that no one wants to contribute precisely because PA team control the manual and the newsletter ? I almost guarantee if you let players keep things up to date people will begin to contribute, no one wants to have to go through one of the jump up ego tripping PA team members to get something put on a website.
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 15:50   #22
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
Did you ever consider the fact that no one wants to contribute precisely because PA team control the manual and the newsletter ? I almost guarantee if you let players keep things up to date people will begin to contribute, no one wants to have to go through one of the jump up ego tripping PA team members to get something put on a website.
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 16:13   #23
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
i think the point is that in that no one wants to contribute things to what we have atm why woukd anyone want to contribute in another way.
I think you're wrong, there are plenty of people who are willing to contribute. And what Hicks said.
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 16:48   #24
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

if noone wanted to contribute, your discussion threads would be an awful lot quieter...

that said, i think you'd want to go with some form of login system rather than something anonymous

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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 17:47   #25
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

has anyone asked us if they can have anything on a site? how do they know we would want full control over it etc unless they ask
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 17:54   #26
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
has anyone asked us if they can have anything on a site? how do they know we would want full control over it etc unless they ask
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I think the core manual needs to be controlled by us
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 18:31   #27
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

*smiles
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 18:41   #28
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

thats just the core manual.... all the core manual is either rules for doign things or a description of how the game works
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 18:56   #29
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

as it's the description of how the game works that's the problem, what's the point?

the worst that could happen, were you to open it up to addition, would be that people would add stuff that was supposed to be secret, like xp formulas. and tbh, if they know them already they might as well be added!

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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 19:26   #30
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

i'm more worried people would add things that were wrong... and we would then have to invest time in editing everything. Also people haven' cracked the XP from scans or XP form covert ops to my knowledge, though I personally think it might be about time we release things liek this as the smaller alliances and players are the ones who suffer.
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 19:50   #31
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

i'm fairly sure that there are enough people out there who know how the game works for mistakes to be spotted. anyway, reading over a piece has to be quicker than writing your own, which is the other alternative if you want to appear to care about your customers

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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 21:11   #32
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

we do have a manual...
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 21:34   #33
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Exclamation Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
we do have a manual...
And how's that working for you?
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 22:29   #34
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
i'm more worried people would add things that were wrong... and we would then have to invest time in editing everything. Also people haven' cracked the XP from scans or XP form covert ops to my knowledge, though I personally think it might be about time we release things liek this as the smaller alliances and players are the ones who suffer.
The entire point of a wiki is that it is self-editing. It's not like it'll be PA team *alone* correcting errors - which ensures they are corrected faster than with a central, and let's face it, unmotivated writer/editor.

And lots of Wikis have semi-restricted writing priveleges, where admins can ban vandals. Look at other wikis - does it look like they suffer unduly from what you worry about?

Look, it's just an idea. But judging from the replies you've made, it just seems to me that you're arguing against something that you don't really seem to understand. Have you read the Wiki page on Wikipedia? It is really a very good read, and extremely informative.

(And it's not like PA team *is* needed to make a Planetarion Wiki, maybe it'd be best if someone else set it up and those interested started on it... and then you could see if you wanted to move it to "official" hosting?)
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 22:34   #35
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

BTW. It's like we're yelling at each other from two different planets.

The issue isn't control, Kal. The issue is quality. And TBH I believe a much higher quality can be reached through allowing a little chaos.
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Unread 2 Dec 2004, 23:41   #36
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

I quite like the idea of a wiki manual, but as people have suggested it would be possible to have a version where you had to be logged in in order to edit something, and therefore a sort of hybrid manual-wiki may be suitable.
What I'd be thinking would be that the person doing the editing would have had to have been signed up to the passport for 3 months (variable ofc) and have played a round/beta/speedgame of PA within recent history. This would prevent people from signing up purely to vandalise the system, and would allow effective banning to be done of anyone who did cause problems.

Obviously certain things in the manual would be "set in stone". (best example of this would be the stats, as they are taken directly from the game so they can never be out of date) but would maybe have some wiki space as well to allow people to explain what they mean.

Before I say any more though I do want to investigate more on how they work from the admin side, and we'd have to work out whether it would be easy to integrate with the rest of the system.
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Unread 3 Dec 2004, 01:28   #37
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Kal believe it or not your posting in this thread sums up why no one will contribute when PA Team have a strangle hold on everything related to the game, it’s that exact attitude that forces people to either not help or do things on their own, sites like Pilkara, the Bcalc, Scouses and Sandmans show the quality players can come up with when left to their own devices (Pilkara and Sandmans have trumped every tools site PA Team have knocked up and Scouses has a bigger collection of rankings and memorabilia than the portal ever has).

With Wiki you could let players contribute their own definitions and strategies while leaving the core (stats basic rules) in tact, If you want things done right give PA Team as little control as possible (Especially over coding) and let players do the work. A2 sort it out
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Unread 3 Dec 2004, 01:40   #38
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

my point was more connected to the orignial purpose of this thread when the whole point was thta people wanted more detail about the way the game worked, this woudl obviosuly be things for the core manual rather than any community additions. Things related to strategy etc are hwoever perfect for community contributions, even if its just the basic stuff i.e. the interpretation of the core manual.

As to external sites being better than PA's tool kits, in my view thats not a bad thing, becuase the community can rpovide its own resoruces it means we can concentrate on the core game, however I personally would like to have a good official toolkit and things, but at the same time do not want it to take resoruces away from other areas.

People also have to undertsand that jolt is a business and thus wants to look after its possessions - this includes all official things connected to the game. For people to be able to donate code to the game or indeed core manual components they would have to in essence have access to the current code which is not something jolt will ever allow unless people sign NDAs and a lot of people are not willing to do this.

I also think its crucial that PATeam rather than the players control the future direciton of the game, of course we need to listen to the players and consult with them, which is something we have been doing, but at the same time the players do not allways see things in an objective way, that said neither do PATeam all of the time. So to counter this I will be forming a commitee made up of PATeam members and community members that will look after the suggestions and development discussions forums and present detailed proposals based on this to PATeam so that decisions can be made. I hope people have noticed that I speant quite a lot fo time on the suggestions forum to help compile the round 13 design document, of which considerable coding work has allready been done, primarily on the features suggested by the community and on the round 13 galaxy setup.
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Unread 3 Dec 2004, 02:15   #39
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

It's funny how the people who write the manual and give advice are for the most part players who never amounted to anything in game, if you want tips and advice PA Team are the last people you should turn to, the only thing PA Team should be responsible for in the manual is copy and pasting the stats in, anything else is grossly over stepping their expertise. You want a decent quality manual or PA encyclopaedia (Which is what Eol was suggesting from what I can see) or what ever then turn to the players not people who've brown nosed their way into PA Team and never been involved with the game properly.

The talent that existed and still does exist in this community has always outweighed the talent on the inside, hell if you let the community code the game you’d have a better result (Ahoy clones with higher player bases coded by ex PA faces), every time the community has been turned to it has delivered, be it Petru with stats or Grendal with GFX yet almost without fail they’ve been slapped in the face, pushed aside by PA Team incompetence. When left to their own devices the players have always come up with high quality tools and websites going back as far Round 2. Things like Alliance Hosting, attack bots, tools sites, portals, graphics and even ship stats could have been out sourced so easily to people who would have offered their services for free yet you refused so you wouldn’t lose your precious control ending up with far inferior products. Thinking back for a prime example is easy enough, as I remember when PA Team tried to take Sandmans in house, he was up for the idea until you attempted to make him to effectively sell his soul, there are a hundred other instances of PA Team wanting control over everything and losing out because of it.

However this control freak natural of PA Team is contrasted by the utter unprofessional look of it all, believe me if Jolt wanted to look professional they'd hardly let an inept bunch of volunteers have so much power, the control freak nature isn’t in the interest of the game it’s in the interest of not wanting to see your own little personal bit of power diminish, like the security guard on the front gate who thinks he runs the corporation. You guys have led the community ? While pay to play has been the biggest factor in the decline of the game you guys have done almost as much damage yourselves, look at PAX, the game itself is only now recovering from that PA Team led debacle, remember the beta forums ? The experienced players who were pointing out the flaws and suggesting how to do the game properly were shouted down by yes men, people like you, the funny thing is now the game is moving towards exactly what was suggested by the players (Only a year late).

You propose a committee made up of PA Team and community members ? Revolutionary kal, I can see with that kind of foreword thinking you must be a real asset. What a waste of time, it’ll be the next generation of PA Team wannabes put in an IRC channel to nod and say yes to everything PA Team suggests, not to forget emphasising how important a portal redesign is, you think anyone who really matters in Planetarion will be interested in participating ? They’ve been there too many times before and been ignored for them to bother.
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Unread 3 Dec 2004, 02:27   #40
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Hicks for PA team membeship!
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Unread 3 Dec 2004, 02:30   #41
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

thing is pa is about power, some get it by being in a top ally, top planet, some get it by being on the pa team...you do the math
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Unread 3 Dec 2004, 02:32   #42
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
I also think its crucial that PATeam rather than the players control the future direciton of the game
lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
of course we need to listen to the players and consult with them, which is something we have been doing, but at the same time the players do not allways see things in an objective way.
the players dont see how to maximise profits i take it?
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Unread 3 Dec 2004, 02:34   #43
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

wern't r12 ship stats outsourced, to sid i believe?
while they were good stats, wasn't there significant complaining that sid had some form of advantage from having designed the numbers which people couldn't get from looking at them?

pax was hardly pateam lead it was spinner lead. i seem to recall the pateam complaining that they'd nfi what it was untill the players did

i'd like to be able to disagree with the majority of hick's post, but saddly a large part of it is indeed true :/

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Unread 3 Dec 2004, 02:37   #44
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
the players dont see how to maximise profits i take it?
i suspect that might have been a reference to the lobbying by certain individuals which may have had a detremental effect on this round's stats

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Unread 3 Dec 2004, 03:42   #45
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hicks
It's funny how the people who write the manual and give advice are for the most part players who never amounted to anything in game, if you want tips and advice PA Team are the last people you should turn to, the only thing PA Team should be responsible for in the manual is copy and pasting the stats in, anything else is grossly over stepping their expertise. You want a decent quality manual or PA encyclopaedia (Which is what Eol was suggesting from what I can see) or what ever then turn to the players not people who've brown nosed their way into PA Team and never been involved with the game properly.

The talent that existed and still does exist in this community has always outweighed the talent on the inside, hell if you let the community code the game you’d have a better result (Ahoy clones with higher player bases coded by ex PA faces), every time the community has been turned to it has delivered, be it Petru with stats or Grendal with GFX yet almost without fail they’ve been slapped in the face, pushed aside by PA Team incompetence. When left to their own devices the players have always come up with high quality tools and websites going back as far Round 2. Things like Alliance Hosting, attack bots, tools sites, portals, graphics and even ship stats could have been out sourced so easily to people who would have offered their services for free yet you refused so you wouldn’t lose your precious control ending up with far inferior products. Thinking back for a prime example is easy enough, as I remember when PA Team tried to take Sandmans in house, he was up for the idea until you attempted to make him to effectively sell his soul, there are a hundred other instances of PA Team wanting control over everything and losing out because of it.

However this control freak natural of PA Team is contrasted by the utter unprofessional look of it all, believe me if Jolt wanted to look professional they'd hardly let an inept bunch of volunteers have so much power, the control freak nature isn’t in the interest of the game it’s in the interest of not wanting to see your own little personal bit of power diminish, like the security guard on the front gate who thinks he runs the corporation. You guys have led the community ? While pay to play has been the biggest factor in the decline of the game you guys have done almost as much damage yourselves, look at PAX, the game itself is only now recovering from that PA Team led debacle, remember the beta forums ? The experienced players who were pointing out the flaws and suggesting how to do the game properly were shouted down by yes men, people like you, the funny thing is now the game is moving towards exactly what was suggested by the players (Only a year late).

You propose a committee made up of PA Team and community members ? Revolutionary kal, I can see with that kind of foreword thinking you must be a real asset. What a waste of time, it’ll be the next generation of PA Team wannabes put in an IRC channel to nod and say yes to everything PA Team suggests, not to forget emphasising how important a portal redesign is, you think anyone who really matters in Planetarion will be interested in participating ? They’ve been there too many times before and been ignored for them to bother.
*cough*

thread

*cough*
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Unread 3 Dec 2004, 08:41   #46
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Hicks is absolutley correct in this thread but to an extent I suspect he's wasting his breath.
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Unread 3 Dec 2004, 11:11   #47
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

what clone do people refer to a sbeing run by ex pa layers that has a higher player base? as its not pia, they have signficantly less players and are dying at a signifcant rate.

The last round of saw a huge increas ein players from the previous round, and despite this round looking to be a major dissapointment early on, this round has actually surpassed all our expectations in terms of numbers of players, we do not have many less than last roun and it still isn't the end of the round (its also worth considering this will be a shorter round).

People have also again failed to understand what I mean by the core manual - i do not mean a guide on how to play the game, I mean things like "what happens when i click this cutton on the page" - the things that are defined directly by the code.

I also object to being accused of never having been involved with the game. Having had a good planet in both pax rounds i played, and in one of them being heavily involved in politics, I know and am respected by a large amount of the alliance community (though plenty hate me ). At the same time i concede that I do not understand the way the game is atm as well as i should from a player point of view, which is why I regularly speak to current players and the alliances to find things out. Before I joined PATeam I co-founded the alliances channel and the mentor team with alch in a bid to try and improve the game both from a technical point of view and a player point of view, I joined PATeam as a multihunter. As such I probably have the broadest experiance in PATeam, BUT not the best in anyone area. That is why I have the job I do, talking to the community, working out what they want, seeing if its viable and trying to convince PATeam to do it. So far despite what everyone seems to think that has been highly successful the vast majority of the things asked for prior to this round and earlier in this round (that are not hugely controversial) are on the list to code for next round. The next step is to debate the more controversial plans still during this round so that we have a clear idea BEFORE talking about round 14 design.

With regards to my commmitee I am fairly certain none of the people ivolved have any desire to be anywhere near PATeam, in fact one of them is nearly as rude to me as you are hicks, maybe you'd like to join as well.
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Unread 3 Dec 2004, 16:38   #48
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by kal
People have also again failed to understand what I mean by the core manual - i do not mean a guide on how to play the game, I mean things like "what happens when i click this cutton on the page" - the things that are defined directly by the code.
was this whole thing not started by the inability of pateam to keep the manual current on just such a point?

Quote:
I also object to being accused of never having been involved with the game...
of the pateam, how many have played pax other than in 1:1? as far as i'm aware you have, and one other has, i think (not sure how well they did). i can remember 12 pateam members. 2 out of 12 isn't a great result is it? i'd say you're the exception rather than the rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kal
With regards to my commmitee I am fairly certain none of the people ivolved have any desire to be anywhere near PATeam, in fact one of them is nearly as rude to me as you are hicks, maybe you'd like to join as well.
if you're getting in outside help one has to assume that it's because the pateam itself doesn't have the skills you want (note, this is not a criticism - asking for help when you need it seems fairly sensible). perhaps it's worth questioning why the people who you think do have these skills don't want to be in the pateam? being able to bring these kind of skills in house would seem like a useful thing to do?

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Unread 3 Dec 2004, 20:58   #49
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
thats just the core manual.... all the core manual is either rules for doign things or a description of how the game works

you are joking, right ?
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Unread 3 Dec 2004, 21:04   #50
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Re: Please could we have access to the full PA code

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal



I also think its crucial that PATeam rather than the players control the future direciton of the game, of course we need to listen to the players and consult with them, which is something we have been doing, but at the same time the players do not allways see things in an objective way, that said neither do PATeam all of the time. So to counter this I will be forming a commitee made up of PATeam members and community members that will look after the suggestions and development discussions forums and present detailed proposals based on this to PATeam so that decisions can be made. I hope people have noticed that I speant quite a lot fo time on the suggestions forum to help compile the round 13 design document, of which considerable coding work has allready been done, primarily on the features suggested by the community and on the round 13 galaxy setup.
GREAT!!!!!

More PA-teams and Commitees controlled by PA-team.

You just don't get it do you ?
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