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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 11:36   #1
-Blue Moon-
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*tuts* @ Stats

i wouldnt usually post this publically, but the stats are horrendous.
no offense to whoever worked hard on them, i know how hard it can be to make stats especially when you're being PMd and pressured by multiple sources to change certain things, but this time there's so many flaws, and so many useless attack fleets that i cannot begin to fathom why these were released.

understandably many people may overlook these flaws because of the excitement of the new race and cluster etas, but i'm posting this to try and open their eyes to a very poor set of stats.

here's my brief single-class attack-fleet overview:
(red=no-go, orange=acceptable risk, green=riskless/easy roids)

FI
Xan v Ter Pegasus and Banshee have same init, Harpy kills late but without reprise
Xan v Cath Beetle freezes FI but Phantom will target later if unfrozen
Xan v Xan Wraith(co) kills FI as Apparition(fi) kills FR-def, Phantom then returns fire to Wraith, and Nightmare shoot last
Xan v Zik Apparition(fi) kills Corsair(fr) pre-fire, Phantom kills stealer pre-fire
Xan v Etd Vendor freezes FI but Phantom will later target if unfrozen

CO
Cath v Ter Phoenix shoots without being targeted
Cath v Cath Spider(fi) EMPs before Beetle(co) rendering them useless, WM(cr) kills w/out reprise
Cath v Xan Beetle stun Phantom easily, but Spectre kill without reprise

Cath v Zik Beetle stun Cutlass (stealer)
Cath v Etd Viper stun Ranger


FR
Xan v Ter Nightmare kills Mandrake(fi) pre-fire, but Syren(cr) shoots without reprise
Xan v Cath Viper(co) EMPs without reprise
Xan v Xan Apparition(fi) kills pre-fire, spirit kills without reprise
Xan v Zik Buccaneer(cr) steals without reprise
Xan v Etd Shadow kills Tycoon(bs) pre-fire but Voyager(co) kills without reprise


Etd v Ter Mandrake(fi) kills without reprise, Dealer kills Syren(cr) pre-fire
Etd v Cath Viper(co) EMPs and is later targeted by Ranger
Etd v Xan Apparition(fi) kills without reprise, Spirit(co) kills before Ranger
Etd v Zik Dealer kills Buccaneer(cr) pre-steal
Etd v Etd Voyager(co) and Ranger co-kill, Tycoon(bs) kills Merchant pre steal

DE
Ter v Ter Chimera and Dragon(bs) co-kill
Ter v Cath Roach(cr) EMPs Drake, but is later targeted
Ter v Xan Banshee(fi) and Pegasus co-kill

Ter v Zik Thief(fr) steal without reprise, Pirate(bs) kills pre-init
Ter v Etd vagabond(fi) and pegasus co-kill, drake kills investor(cr) prekill

Zik v Ter Clipper kills Dragon(bs) preinit
Zik v Cath Roach(cr) EMPs Rogue, is later stolen
Zik v Xan Banshee(fi) kills without reprise
Zik v Zik Thief(fr) steals without reprise, pirate(bs) kills preinit
Zik v Etd Vagabond(fi) kills without reprise, investor(bs) kills late but presteal



CR
Cath v Ter Drake(de) and Wyvern(bs) both EMPd, but both later take revenge
Cath v Cath Scorpion(bs) is stunned prekill, scarab EMPs without reprise
Cath v Xan Roach EMPs Ghost(de)
Cath v Zik Roach EMPs Rogue(de) presteal

Cath v Etd Dealer(fr) kills without reprise, Broker(bs) shoots poststun(useless)

Zik v Ter Drake(de) kills without reprise, Wyvern(bs) kills without reprise
Zik v Cath Scarab(fr) EMPs and is later stolen, Scorpion(bs) kills pre-steal
Zik v Xan Ghost(de) kills without reprise
Zik v Zik Rogue(de) steals without reprise
Zik v Etd Broker(bs) EMPs and is later stolen, Dealer(fr) kills pre-stolen



BS
Ter v Ter Chimera(de) kills without reprise
Ter v Cath Mantis(fr) kills without reprise, Tarantula(cr) EMPs but is later killed
Ter v Xan Shadow(fr) kills without reprise
Ter v Zik Clipper(de) kills pre-fired-on, Marauder(cr) is killed pre-steal
Ter v Etd Merchant(fr) steals without reprise

Etd v Ter Chimera(de) kills without reprise

Etd v Cath Tycoon kills Mantis(fr) prefire, scorpion(bs) makes broker useless emp
Etd v Xan Shadow(fr) shoots before it is targeted
Etd v Zik Clipper(de) kills without reprise, marauder(cr) is EMPd by broker

Etd v Etd Tycoon kills Merchant(fr) pre-steal


I have a number of suggestions, but how well they would be able to repair these stats - that's the question... if there isn't a sufficient reply to this thread i'll piss off and die, but if anyone takes the time to realise how bad they are, and if stats team wants the help, I'm offering my services to help fix them.


-tux
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 13:24   #2
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

my suggestion: http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=192268
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 13:49   #3
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

suggested changes:

Widdowmaker Frigate Corvette Norm 10 1 45 30 50 2600 3250 2600 54 36 Cath 1
(changed class to FR and the values updated accordingly)

Nightmare Frigate Corvette Cloak 5 1 21 25 77 2100 2100 2100 34 40 Xan 1
(changed target to CO and armour +1)

Spectre Frigate Cruiser Cloak 4 1 22 30 50 2250 2250 2250 33 45 Xan 1
(changed class to FR target to CR and values updated accordingly)

Cutlass Fighter Corvette Steal 30 1 6 4 42 400 400 600 43 29 Zik 1
(changed armour and damage, SUGGEST NO DEATH)

Cutter Corvette Fighter Steal 30 1 13 9 83 1000 1000 1200 41 29 Zik Swindler 1
(changed armour and damage, SUGGEST NO DEATH, change name due to too many 'c' to Swindler(?))

Corsair Frigate Fighter Norm 5 1 35 45 44 3000 3000 3600 36 46 Zik Brigand 1
(changed armour and damage, SUGGEST NO DEATH, change name due to too many 'c' to Brigand(?))

Rogue Destroyer Cruiser Steal 30 1 70 55 83 5000 5000 6500 43 34 Zik 1
(changed armour and damage, SUGGEST NO DEATH)

Marauder Cruiser Battleship Steal 30 1 120 70 83 8000 8000 10000 47 27 Zik 1
(changed armour and damage, SUGGEST NO DEATH)

Buccaneer Cruiser Frigate Steal 30 1 125 95 85 8500 8500 10500 46 35 Zik 1
(changed armour and damage, SUGGEST NO DEATH)

Thief Cruiser Destroyer Steal 30 1 130 90 53 8750 8750 11000 46 32 Zik 1
(changed class to CR and updated accordingly, SUGGEST NO DEATH)

Vagabond Fighter Fighter Norm 5 1 8 3 56 625 300 325 64 23 Etd 1
(changed target to FI)

Tycoon Battleship Frigate Norm 7 1 260 180 75 16000 15000 16000 55 38 Etd 1
(changed init to 7)

Broker Battleship Destroyer Emp 3 1 175 - 175 15000 17000 15000 37 0 Etd 1
(changed target to DE)


Makes for a much balanced set
I'm sure i'll think of a couple more things that could be changed tho
-tux
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 16:36   #4
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

I see u've rated Cath CR as the best attack fleet atm (green on 3 races).
I could prove u wrong on more points, but I'll just do it for cath cr now.. :/
Now.. a simple example:
attackfleet: 1000 roach (295k value) /1000 tarantula (280k value) /100 hornet (33k value) -> 608k value (but 33k value in pods, which i wont count later on)

Cath vs Ter:
1000 roach (295k value) stun 180 drake (63k value)
1000 tarantula (280k value) stun 510 wyvern (342k value)
575k cath value stun 405k ter value -> 170k value remaining
490 drake (170k value) kill 380 roach (112k value)
or
255 wyvern (170k value) kill 370 roach (105k value)
This is calced without the fact that there ofc will be other ter de/bs flak, as both classes are ter attack fleets.
Conclusion: attacking ter with cath cr is at least orange, and most likely in the round just impossible, thus red

Cath vs Cath:
Cath has scarab and scorpion as anti-cr, so the roaches are useless and just act as flak in a cath vs cath battle.
U need 3334 scarab (243k value) to stun all 2100 tarantula.
575k attacking value vs 243k defending scarab value -> 332k value remaining to spend on scorpion.
790 scorpion (332k value) kill 760 roach (224k value)
Conclusion: attacking cath with cath cr is a big nono as u'll basically get pwnd.

Cath vs Xan:
1000 roach (295k value) stun 380 ghost (51k value)
575k attacking value vs 51k xan value -> 524k value remaining to spend on ghost
3900 ghost (524k value) kill 1875 roach (550k value)
Conclusion: dont think this needs further explanation, cath cr gets pwnd again

Cath vs Zik:
1000 roach (295k value) stun 340 rogue (56k value)
575k attacking value vs 56k zik value -> 519k value remaining to spend on rogue
3150 rogue (519k value) kill 1400 roach (413k value)
Conclusion: pwnd again

Cath vs Etd:
Dealer being a zero-loss ship (and part of the attack fleet)
Conclusion: better stay away from Etd with cath cr

Now I know there are some flaws in my calc as e.g.
I compare an entire attack fleet value too only 1 defship.. but the problem is, atm it arent even close battles. Ter being the closest battle, but there the problem for cath is u most likely have to stun two entire attack fleets. And if i can tell u one thing i learned from last round (where cath cr was a lot more efficient as it is now) its impossible for cath to compete with equally valued ter planets.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 16:44   #5
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

Another change:
Clipper to init8
and
Merchant Frigate Battleship Steal 29 1 40 28 64 2000 2000 8000 34 24 Etd
Merchant Armour and Attack severely reduced to compensate for 'free stealing'
and
Phantom init down to 3
Wraith init up to 4

With the above changes it would make the single-class attack-fleets change to:

FI
Xan v Ter Pegasus and Banshee have same init, Harpy kills late but without loss
Xan v Cath Beetle freezes FI but Phantom will target later if unfrozen
Xan v Xan Phantom kills before Wraith(co) Apparition(fi) kills FR-def, Wraith and Nightmare shoot last
Xan v Zik Apparition(fi) kills Corsair(fr) pre-fire, Phantom kills stealer pre-fire
Xan v Etd Vagabond(fi) kills FI, Vendor(fr) freezes FI but Phantom will later target if unfrozen

CO
Cath v Ter Phoenix shoots without being targeted
Cath v Cath Spider(fi) EMPs before Beetle(co) rendering them useless, WM(fr) stunned before fire
Cath v Xan Beetle stun Phantom easily, Nightmare(f) stunned by viper
Cath v Zik Beetle stun Cutlass (stealer)
Cath v Etd Viper stun Ranger


FR
Xan v Ter Mandrake(fi) kills without reprise, Syren(cr) killed by spectre
Xan v Cath Viper(co) EMPs and it later targeted
Xan v Xan Apparition(fi) kills pre-fire, spirit(co) kills and is later targeted
Xan v Zik Buccaneer(cr) killed pre-steal by Spectre
Xan v Etd Shadow co-kills Tycoon(bs) and Voyager(co) co-kills w/nightmare

Etd v Ter Mandrake(fi) kills without reprise, Dealer kills Syren(cr) pre-fire
Etd v Cath Viper(co) EMPs and is later targeted by Ranger
Etd v Xan Apparition(fi) kills without reprise, Spirit(co) kills before Ranger
Etd v Zik Dealer kills Buccaneer(cr) pre-steal
Etd v Etd Voyager(co) and Ranger co-kill, Tycoon(bs) kills Merchant pre steal

DE
Ter v Ter Chimera and Dragon(bs) co-kill
Ter v Cath Roach(cr) EMPs Drake, but is later targeted
Ter v Xan Banshee(fi) and Pegasus co-kill

Ter v Zik Thief(fr) killed by drake pre-steal, Pirate(bs) kills pre-init
Ter v Etd broker(bs) EMPs DE and is later targeted, drake kills investor(cr) prekill

Zik v Ter Clipper kills Dragon(bs) preinit
Zik v Cath Roach(cr) EMPs Rogue, is later stolen
Zik v Xan Banshee(fi) kills without reprise
Zik v Zik Thief(cr) and Rogue co-steal, pirate(bs) kills same init
Zik v Etd broker(bs) EMPs DE but is later stolen, investor(bs) kills late but presteal


CR
Cath v Ter Drake(de) and Wyvern(bs) both EMPd, but both later take revenge
Cath v Cath Scorpion(bs) is stunned prekill, scarab EMPs without reprise
Cath v Xan Roach EMPs Ghost(de) but is killed by FR
Cath v Zik Roach EMPs Rogue(de) presteal
Cath v Etd Dealer(fr) kills without reprise, Broker(bs) shoots poststun(useless)

Zik v Ter Drake(de) kills and is later stolen, Wyvern(bs) kills and is later stolen
Zik v Cath Scarab(fr) EMPs and is later stolen, Scorpion(bs) kills pre-steal
Zik v Xan Ghost(de) kills and is later stolen

Zik v Zik Rogue(de) and theif co-steal
Zik v Etd Dealer(fr) kills pre-stolen


BS
Ter v Ter Chimera(de) and Dragon co-kill
Ter v Cath Mantis(fr) kills without reprise, Tarantula(cr) EMPs but is later killed
Ter v Xan Shadow(fr) kills without reprise

Ter v Zik Clipper(de) killed before fires, Marauder(cr) is killed pre-steal
Ter v Etd Merchant(fr) steals without reprise

Etd v Ter Chimera(de) is EMPd by Broker
Etd v Cath Tycoon kills Mantis(fr) prefire, tula(cr) EMPs without reprise
Etd v Xan Shadow(fr) shoots before it is targeted
Etd v Zik Clipper(de) is EMPd by Broker, marauder(cr) steals without reprise

Etd v Etd Tycoon kills Merchant(fr) pre-steal

looks better imo, still needs some work on BS/CR tho i think?
(purple/pink now indicates a zik 'bounce' fleet, meaning ziks need to take (considerable?) losses before they can gain thro stealing)
in this case stealing MUST NOT cause death, or zik is way too hard to balance
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 17:04   #6
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

Who says the stats were soley designed for single class attack fleets...
barringin mind the exact costs/arm/damage may/probily will be tweaked.

lets start off with xan Fi (or even xan fi/co)
xans will have an early advantage of not being able to be properly scaned for the first 200 ticks or so.

V terrans whilst I did want banshee init to be a 4 I have been told by others that it would overpower xans (apparently...to be tested for confirmation)
A xan can easily roid terrans by sending in the co backup as the spirits hit the harpys/terran fi and the phantoms hit the nixies before either ship get to fire baring in mind that xans have the cloak advantage so you never know what is to be sent. kinda reminds you of r14

v caths a suffient amount will be able to roid them 0 loss.
v xans if there isnt suffient wraiths to hit the fi then it is very much a roidable option. using the old play chicken tactic.
v ziks probily the easiest option to start off with.
v etd yet again in suffient number it becomes a 0 loss roiding option.

def ships the only thing that gets a free hit is the harpy which fires only after every other xan fi ship (apart from pods) and this is on the basis that it is a pure fi fleet. FA scans cant reveal what exactly is being sent wether it is pure fi or fi/co combo. there are 3 ally eta def ships that gets it cut in before it fires. 2 are emp 1 is the xan wraith which is to prevent another r15. and there are other def option like the thief that only get a cut in after once everything else fire inc pods.

Cath co...

V Terrans have a 0 loss ally eta def option. although expensive to build in terms of effectiveness.
V caths 0 loss option up until the point where they can get widdowmakers.
V xans would be able to freely roid xans if the fleet compositions are right. up until the point where the xans can start to build spectres then xans have a 0 loss def option. (then again they are gonna need that as roach flak come later on in the game...what this space.)
V Ziks should be an easy option.
V Etds should be a fesible option depending on fleet compositions.

def options ally eta options are nixies for the 0 loss option, spiders that get their cut in first. as for anything else throw as much fi flak as possible to allow cutlasses and phatoms to fire.

Zik destroyers...
V terrans they should be a nightmare and rightly so.
V Xans genrally a no go area with this fleet. (not without capped pegs at least.)
V caths a fesible attack option depending on fleet compositions. A 0 loss attack option.
V ziks not recommended. (one of the main reasons for this was to reduce the likelyhood to stop ziks boucing off each other for free cr)
V etd I wouldnt recommend it but could be done if the investor cap was going to be decent. (if there is fair amount of decent drakes/pegs are capped with the ziks 0 loss cap option.)

Ally eta def options.
vegbonds as 0 loss options to start off may lose this. (until capped pegs but this taken into consideration.) thiefs are also 0 loss cap option. also banshee are also a 0 loss option aswell even tho they are part of an attack fleet.

Terran de
V other terrans... should be a roidable (especially early on) option but chicken tactics might have to played from pt200 ish onwards. depends on fleet compositions etc
V xans a possible roiding option depending on fleet compositions. chicken tactics would have to played here... tbh there are far easier roiding options.
V cath 0 loss attack here.
V ziks not recommended as they have thiefs (0 loss cap option) and pirates (fire first) I couldnt rule them out as a roiding option. would depend on fleet compostions etc.
V etd should be a decent roiding option esecially to start off may become more trickier later on in game. (vagabonds should be anti zik de but not so much anti terr de and investors fire after drakes... also there is scope for etd to aquire dragons and pirates as anti de from mid to end game.)

ally eta def options... banshee and vagabonds whilst it will be sore from pegs may need suffient fi flak to spread out the damage for as a def option just like you would send out flak damage for example harpys and mandrakes just as you would send out as you would v cath co or cr
thiefs are a 0 loss eta ally def option. this is where testing is a good thing to see if it is balanced

etd frig...

V terrans... although mandrakes are 0 loss def v and terrans have syrens (which although are good armoured fire after dealers) a good frig fleet with sending co fleet could de a decent roiding/cap option for etd.
V caths 0 loss attack option depending on fleet compositions again.
V xans generally a no go zone.
V ziks very much a roid/cap option.
V etd a possible roid option "chicken" may need be required... would depend on fleet compositions etc.

ally def options... mandrakes are the only 0 loss option other ships would get targetted... vipers and spirits get their cut in first but would get targtted back rangers fire at same time.

xan frig...
whilst not much of a roiding fleet on its own... baring in mind that xans will have cloaked ships and cant be readily scaned except for pods and Sks.
V terrans generally a no go if there is a decent amount of syrens.
V caths a possible roiding option also 0 loss if the fleet composition are correct or vipers are out roiding etc.
V xans generally a no go zone.
V ziks not recommended unless xp whoring.
V etd whilst frig option would be sore due to voyagers getting a free hit nothing to stop a xan from sending fr/de combo (yet again having the cloak advantage providing there is no Sks in there ) from roiding etd with the correct fleet compositions.

ally def options mandrakes can be used but would have to wait until they have been fired on before returning fire. Viper, rangers and spirits would get a free hit but would be in for a shock if there is any spectres hidden in the fleet.

Cath cr

V Terrans... a tricky roid option only if the fleet compostions are right.
V Caths... a possible roid option will depend on fleet compositions
V Xan... very much a roid option. suffient roach etc.
V ziks... a possible roid option will depend on fleet compositions.
V etd... will be a sore one due to them dealers getting a free hit at good damage.... tbh alot easier roiding options.

ally def options... throw in as much de or bs flak as you can to allow the cruiser targetting ships a shot, also there is frig class anti cr like the scarab and dealer that would get a free hit.

Zik cr or cr/bs

V terrans a tricky roid/cap option but by no means to be ruled out. May need to use bs (pirats etc) to take out any de that would get a good hit into the cr like the drake for example and suffient cr there to steal bs to make it worthwhile because the wyverns will get their cut in first.

V caths a possible roid/cap option... due to what caths have ship wise target cr zik cr tends to steal.
V xans ghost would get a free hit into a pure zik cr... one possibility is to attack xan with bs/cr the pirates/bs would be disposable ships to protect the cr from ghosts, although shadows would then hit the bs the cr would be left free to steal the frigs.
V ziks rogues are there as a 0 loss cap def options to stop ziks bouncing off other ziks although it is possible to do...if a bs/cr combo was used the deffending marauders would get a free lunch into the pirates/other bs.
V etd a possible roid/cap option is the fleet compostions are right.

ally eta def options ghosts, rogues and drakes get a free hit (until capped roach/investors) for de. for frig scarabs,dealers fire before the buccs.
for bs class anti cr you have wyverns, scorpions and brokers.
if a combo fleet is used using cr class anti bs would allow a free hit. (subject to capped bs class anti cr) like marauders and tarants.

Terran bs or bs/cr

V terrans it is possible to send pure bs on the basis of playing chicken for roids.
V caths... would be difficult/near impossible for a terran to roid a cath with either bs or bs/cr without a free kill hit on either class/landable due to losses.
V xans... it will be effectively be date rape using bs/cr... a pure bs fleet would be ceptable to shadows getting in a free hit.
V ziks... tricky one to roid as clippers get their cut in first before any bs fire and if there is suffient cr (marauders etc) it would be a sore one... sending cr would have no major benefits other than to detter frig class anti bs def (then again the syrens would be 1 extra thing to target )
V etd would be very tricky to roid using pure bs or bs/cr without heavy losses. possible to xp whore if the merchant count is low enough.


ally def options for pure bs fleets use frig class anti bs as it is 0 loss (notice how etd would be volunteering to offer merchants to their DCs )
like merchants, shadows and mantis. if a terran sent bs/cr the only thing that would get a free hit would be bs class anti cr on the syrens. everything else would be targetted.


Etd BS...barring in mind that they have the scope to pickup extra bs from others.
v terrans, would be difficult without picking up a few pirates/dragons as the chims would get a free hit. xp whore option depending on fleet
composition.
V xans... a possible roiding option but would depend on the shadow count otherwise it will be sore.
V Caths... a good roiding option.
V zik... would need to ensure a good broker count otherwise the marauders will be well fed.
V etd a good roiding option but only if the merchant count is low.

ally eta def options de class anti bs like chims and clippers will get a free lunch up until the point where they capp pirates/dragons etc.
cr class anti bs would be 0 loss def until wyverns/scorpions are aquired.
frig class anti bs would be targetted back.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 17:11   #7
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

I will be blunt the last time I can honestly say I found the stats "entertaining" was r14... I believed tuxedo has had a shot at the stats since then.

Jer- the link doesnt seem to be working... so I cant make a comment on a side note if I wanted to have less races I would go and play the clone verson aka ********.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 17:13   #8
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

I think that you have a fair point about the stats being a bit rubbish atm but in all fairness i think everyone will just want their ''normal'' playing race to be improved, or slight changes that help one perspective but weaken other part of battles.
My main concerns are that
Ter can get owned by everyone
The cat's are going to have to rely on their cr alot
Ziks get killed...(zik is hard enough and an odd ship steal was the only way to keep a high value, since keeping roids is so hard)
The new race have a Frig fleet that is way too strong.

I dont see much wrong with the xans they seem quite balanced.
This round you'll have to be stupid to go cat, crazy to be a zik, suicidal to be ter and so i can see alot of people being xan and the new race.

ideally i'd like 20% of people to be each race and i dont see that happening wwith these stats.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 17:14   #9
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

I've spoken to Appoco and he said the stats are going to change. It didn't sound like the current beta stats were representative at all.

tux: Zik can't bounce anymore, due to the 'stealers die' change. Stealing no longer gains the zik any value.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 17:15   #10
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

Matrix (if u take into account the suggestions ive made):

----------Ter-----Cat----Xan----Zik------Etd
Ter DE--Yellow--Yellow--Yellow--Red----Yellow
Ter BS--Yellow--Red-----Red---Green----Red
Cat CO--Red----Yellow---Green-Green----Green
Cat CR--Green--Yellow----Red---Green----Red
Xan FI--Red----Yellow----Green--Green---Red
Xan FR--Red----Yellow----Red---Green---Yellow
Zik DE---Green--Yellow---Red---Yellow----Yellow
Zik CR---Bounce--Bounce--Bounce--Green--Bounce
Etd FR--Red----Yellow----Red----Green-----Red
Etd BS---Green--Yellow---Red----Red-----Green

Terran: 3g 2y 4r 1b
Cathaar: 0g 8y 1r 1b
Xandathrii: 2g 1y 6r 1b
Zikonian: 7g 1y 2r
Enwhatever: 2g 3y 4r 1b

As you can see, ziks get owned, there's no need to make their ships die after stealing. it only removes the possibility of ziks playing for value, which is sad.
i know the stats aren't final, but they were by no means acceptable to release to the public.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
Who says the stats were soley designed for single class attack fleets...
barringin mind the exact costs/arm/damage may/probily will be tweaked.
i never said that, it is however the easiest way to see a quick representation of how attack fleets may be setup - its definately not indicative of Xan, and as Zik grow their inventory will also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jester
tux: Zik can't bounce anymore, due to the 'stealers die' change. Stealing no longer gains the zik any value.
I know that, I am suggesting that this idiotic idea be revoked in favour of dpc ratings in the 25-33 regions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paisley
I will be blunt the last time I can honestly say I found the stats "entertaining" was r14... I believed tuxedo has had a shot at the stats since then.
i agree i havent found the stats entertaining since then. when i was doing the stats in round 18 i has to leave 1 week befoe tick start to help my father move house to south texas. when i came back my stats were only used as a basis as i was not there to defend or update them myself. the stats used in r18, therefore, were not mine, but based upon my stats.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 17:27   #11
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

some error on Cath CO:

"Cath v Xan Beetle stun Phantom easily, Nightmare(f) stunned by viper"

-> NM targets fi, Spectre shoot at CO - no fire back. No Roid Option.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 17:32   #12
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
I will be blunt the last time I can honestly say I found the stats "entertaining" was r14... I believed tuxedo has had a shot at the stats since then.

Jer- the link doesnt seem to be working... so I cant make a comment on a side note if I wanted to have less races I would go and play the clone verson aka ********.
i don't know what game you're talking about but planetarion needs to return to less races and more actual game play options

about current stats i'm assuming they'll be VASTLY different so i am not wasting time for now with this set


Quote:
Originally Posted by tux
i know the stats aren't final, but they were by no means acceptable to release to the public.
indeed
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 17:33   #13
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

you're loooking at the second set anti, that's after my suggested changes.

the first post is the current stats, which says:

Cath v Xan Beetle stun Phantom easily, but Spectre kill without reprise

which is currently correct.

Just read thro your reply Satyr -- you're right -- because I still consider EMP to be damage orientated, not guns --- i really really dislike the reintroduction of emp guns, i'd much rather it go thro 'damage' -- i liked your analysis tho, thank you for the input.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 17:48   #14
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
i don't know what game you're talking about but planetarion needs to return to less races and more actual game play options

about current stats i'm assuming they'll be VASTLY different so i am not wasting time for now with this set
I will drop you a hint it planetarion but shorter ends in ia...
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 17:52   #15
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

Quote:
As you can see, ziks get owned, there's no need to make their ships die after stealing. it only removes the possibility of ziks playing for value, which is sad.
i know the stats aren't final, but they were by no means acceptable to release to the public.
I totally agree with you Tux. Playing Zik is hard and the only good part is stealing ships to gain in value. For Ziks to stay at the same value when they steal doesnt seem appealing at all.

Ziks die when they steal and Ziks die if they get defended against. I really dont think that's going to work. Would it be possible to go back to the old system?

Tbh i think the stats have been based around the new race as they die when they steal doesnt seem too bad, but when the whole emphasis of a race is to steal or die (due to the high int) shouldnt be changed to seal and die or die.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 18:13   #16
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley
I will drop you a hint it planetarion but shorter ends in ia...
pia has 4 races too...?! do you even know what you're talking about?
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 18:28   #17
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
pia has 4 races too...?! do you even know what you're talking about?
last time I looked at PIA it was using the 1 race...needless to say I didnt fancy playing PIA then so why would I keep up with current affairs.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 18:38   #18
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

it was always 4 races, it was a copy of r9 pa. anyway we're besides the point.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 18:58   #19
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

Why does things have to change so radically
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 20:26   #20
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

they need to change so radically because it freshens up the game considerably,..

On top of alll the stuff you do with the stats,. your still going to have attacks happening in cluster which is faster then what u can send to deffend it,.. so an incluster fi/co attack is untouchable by an alliance,.. so that'll change things up in a few unpredictible ways.

Poor Terrans get their De and BS stole however, by ziks and Eiks (Eik over Etd,.. maybe that's another thread)

ah well, i'll wait a few more days untill i make any firm comments however, im sure they'll be at least one if not 2 pod class changes in the mean time :P
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 20:37   #21
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koks
I totally agree with you Tux. Playing Zik is hard and the only good part is stealing ships to gain in value. For Ziks to stay at the same value when they steal doesnt seem appealing at all.
Ziks gain ships they haven't got.. If an zik steals an emp-ship their next attack will be more succesfull. I have played against ziks who 'throw' away their newly gained ships to be able to steal more ships, if they had an couple of lucky shots the poor victims for the next assault didn't had any chance.

I don't know about you, but its NO FUN seeing your *entire* fi/co fleet stolen when everyone already got max eta tech... (to give an idea about the timetable).

I am not sure about 100% loss, maybe it should be less.. But stealers ships die is a good idea.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 02:28   #22
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

The Zik ships used to die in past rounds, where i decided not to play zik and went terran instead.
Quote:
they need to change so radically because it freshens up the game considerably,..
We're not exactly moving forward in terms of features, this has been apart of pa before.
Does anyone remember why? personally i can't, lol. However i feel that this new feature is unfair and takes away a little from the zik race advantage.
I'd like to see the Race features become more distinct withing races.

Cat - EMP - but they have gone a little rubbish over the last few rounds.
Ter - ARMOUR - They have always been strong and a good race to play as a new player.
Xan - CLOAK -there cloak ability has been getting better due mainly to changes last round with scanning.
Ziks - SWAP - not really a swap but thats the nearest thing to whats going on due to ships dying so that salvage inow being generated.

I do think that salvage for lost ships is apropriate, but not this dramatic.

Quote:
Ziks gain ships they haven't got.. If an zik steals an emp-ship their next attack will be more succesfull. I have played against ziks who 'throw' away their newly gained ships to be able to steal more ships, if they had an couple of lucky shots the poor victims for the next assault didn't had any chance.

I don't know about you, but its NO FUN seeing your *entire* fi/co fleet stolen when everyone already got max eta tech... (to give an idea about the timetable).
Zik is a hard race to play as roid loss is apart of their game. However i dont agree with attacks being stronger next attack. You will have a wide range of different ships that wont ammount to much. The f/c aspect of the game will also be lost somewhat as many ziks wont see the point, they willl have to have heavy back up and therfore share roids. The only advantage of this is doing as you stated and obtaining a strong fleet, that could strengthen you. But for this to be applicable to a round of pa and not a speed game or havoc then ask yourself how often do f/c pay off?

In a speed round where ziks can pray on players sleeping etc then i think the changes proposed in this round will work well. In a whole round the only ships ziks will steal are either from inexperienced players early on in the game or f/c that wont really work. ziks have a high int, so roid loss will still be a problem.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 06:03   #23
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

I'm generally a fan of the stats for this round. Some of the more "useless" fleets can actually be helped out quite a bit by mixing classes. The terran BS fleet, for example, goes from horrible to devastating when CRs are added. They can walk over Xans. The Xan FR fleet gets much better when DEs are added - they can walk over Etd. There is only one gripe I have: the Zik DE fleet. Zik are usually weak in the early game, but they can't do ANYTHING with the DE fleet in the beginning. The only way that fleet can get good is by stealing some DE, but that doesn't look easy. Their DE-stealing ship is FR, and the only race with weak FR is Cat... too bad that Cats don't have any DEs this round.

Speaking of Cathaar, I think this is the strongest I've seen them in a while. As always, the Cats can kill three kinds of ships and only EMP the other three. This time around (maybe this has happened before, I've never played Cat), the three ship classes that aren't killed by anything are EMP'd by ships in the Cat attack fleets, which means the average Cat player will have a lot of them. With a sufficiently strong EMP damage (it was a bit weak last round, IMO) a smart and active player can get to be a pretty tough nut to crack.

I'm ambivalent about the new Zik-ships-die rule. On one hand, the kinds of fleets that Zik could build up before were a bit ridiculous. I saw some Fi/Co fleets last round that were nigh on unstoppable. On the other hand, Ziks seem to now have the short end of the stick. They have higher init than Terrans (again), but still have much lower armor and only slightly better damage. In previous rounds, this was made up for by the fact that if the Ziks could somehow survive the enemy fire, the rewards were great. Now the only asset the Zik garner is diversity in fleet design - still a powerful weapon, no doubt, but I suspect that if these stats go final, Zik will be greatly under-represented in the T100.

Also, Terrans are a bit weaker this round, but I support that. Too many terran players constantly crash to play for XP. If that's going to be the dominant terran strategy, I have no problem with giving them harder targets to pick from.

I'm not getting too worked up over this, because the stats will change. They always do. But if the round started tomorrow, I'd play Xan.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 12:23   #24
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

here's my suggested stats: http://ryzekiel.atspace.com/r20.xls
ignore the costs and efficiencies there i haven't really looked much into that at all, but the shape of it is done and promotes a much more offense friendly and generally nicer set up. nothing amazing, nothing "i would like" since i hate these linear sort of stats but this is what we can have so ah well etc. i'm too lazy to finetune the efficiencies (REALLY too lazy, if anyone wants to do it please contact me, nick=jer on ng)

edit: my zik is meant to be with 2 or 3:1 or so zik dying after stealing, 1:1 is just stupid and i refuse to work with it
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 12:43   #25
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osidiradadumpf
Ziks gain ships they haven't got.. If an zik steals an emp-ship their next attack will be more succesfull. I have played against ziks who 'throw' away their newly gained ships to be able to steal more ships, if they had an couple of lucky shots the poor victims for the next assault didn't had any chance.

I don't know about you, but its NO FUN seeing your *entire* fi/co fleet stolen when everyone already got max eta tech... (to give an idea about the timetable).

I am not sure about 100% loss, maybe it should be less.. But stealers ships die is a good idea.
Sure the EMP ships reduce the losses from the kill ships that fire before your stealers. To get those EMP ships in a decent enough quantity you had to lose most of what ever fleet you used to get them. If you land your fleet with the EMP ships on some one with ships home then you end up putting that fleet out of action for a while thus making those EMP ships less valuable. I feel that this will encourage bashing as people will want to get their attack fleets out again as soon as possible which probably means attacking smaller targets.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 15:02   #26
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

update: http://ryzekiel.atspace.com/r20.xls again, everything has now been filled. need a bcalc or something to check the efficiences ESPECIALLY the emp stuff, that i am pretty sure will have some glaring errors in. other than that, the scope of it with the targetting and init is solid and seems to be receiving positive receptions around the place for what it is - a reasonable set of workable stats that's not breaking any boundaries.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 15:17   #27
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

Don't have the time to look into it too much, but it looks quite ok.
Im still not sure if Eit having 9 ships is a good thing though.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 15:43   #28
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

yeah updated it with another bs now, it's not a strong bs, but it will allow a game of chicken with xandas
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 15:46   #29
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
Don't have the time to look into it too much, but it looks quite ok.
Im still not sure if Eit having 9 ships is a good thing though.
Maybe.. but the fact that they can steal cruisers (which is imo a lot better then stealing bs from beta stats) gives them a nice advantage here.

I'll do a quick review on SOME of the emp efficiencies, defending vs pods.. as thats whats its all about in the end for a cath mainly..

Spider
1 Spider (1.75k res) stuns a little more then 1 Demeter (25k res)
-> I'd say a "little" overpowered there, especially coz cath has a DE killer too with a lower initiative!

Beetle
2 Beetle (6.4k res) stun ~7 illusion (6.51k res) or 4 privateer (6.8k res)
-> not that bad as the beetle is part of the attack fleet, prolly a little underpowered as 1 ship has to compete vs an entire attack fleet (flak overload)

Viper
3 Viper (10.5k res) stun a little less then 4 vampyre (26.4k res)
-> again, viper part of the attack fleet, efficiency, fine by me

Scarab
5 Scarab (65k res) stun 3 Hornet (99k res) or 3.75 Ironclad (109k res)
-> underpowered vs both, bearing in mind that the marauder (with a lot more e/r) targets the scarab, zik cr would pwn cath, as they'll be forced to run over and over again

Scorpion
5 Scorpion (122.5k res) stun 3 Mosquito (11.4k res) or 3 Rambler (22.5k res)
-> this doesnt even need an explanation, but i'd even like to add that i dont like the idea in general that u have to research upto siege before u can "stop" an fi/co inc

Tarantula
4 Tarantula (112k res) stun 5 Leviathan (325k res) or 3.3 Baliff (140k res)
-> switching e/r of lev and baliff would prolly make it a lot more balanced, tula part of attackfleet and targetted by the wyvern, so that should be pretty ok


Plz correct me if i made a terrible mistake
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 16:12   #30
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

as i expected then! a lot of guns and e-res's changed.. should be closer to the x-mark now. link as always http://ryzekiel.atspace.com/r20.xls
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Unread 19 Jan 2007, 23:15   #31
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Re: *tuts* @ Stats

Not too sure about the 5th race...

Yay for Xan Fi pods again!!
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