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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 23:04   #1
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Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Guess who's been using chemical weapons.

So, Napalm-like weapons. Chemical Weapons. Depleted Uranium Shells. Torture. Carpet Bombing of civilian areas. Huge "daisy-cutter" bombs.

Is there anyone around who'd like to defend any of this?
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 23:44   #2
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

A post about Iraq with a Guardian article linked, why it could only be a Ste thread
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Unread 15 Nov 2005, 23:46   #3
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Please don't bump your own threads.




















Wait, shit sorry stew
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 00:01   #4
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

I don't want us to have this discussion.

Frankly it's more a legal point than a moral one. The war itself wasn't legal. It wasn't moral. But it happened, well over 2 years ago now. Now I don't find any part of American/British foreign policy to be morally right but it is over.

A legal argument over the schemantic classification of one particular wepon won't help rebuild Iraq. All it will do is help disseminate more ill feeling over Iraq. If we could contain this knowledge to the British people and if we focused on the real question of whom on the world stage we want to be closely allied to then I believe such a debate would be useful.

America itself has remained adamently unable to feel the shame and the horror which Britain has been feeling for a very long time. That's their choice.

Bringing this up here will only antagonise our American posters. We know what they think, what they beieve and what they do. What we think of their actions is a private debate and not one for an International Forum.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 01:57   #5
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Frankly it's more a legal point than a moral one. The war itself wasn't legal. It wasn't moral. But it happened, well over 2 years ago now. Now I don't find any part of American/British foreign policy to be morally right but it is over.
The effects of Depleted Uranium shells will be felt in Iraq for a lot longer than two years.

Besides, I'm not sure the war has finished. The Iraqi resistance (such as it is) fights on. We've not even left Afghanistan yet, let alone Iraq.

I think it's important to highlight these sorts of things otherwise whose to say what will be used again here (or elsewhere, in the next military adventure). Even after the invasion DU shells were used in urban warfare vs guerillas as I understand it.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:01   #6
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I think it's important to highlight these sorts of things otherwise whose to say what will be used again here .
are you suggesting that it would be more important if british citizens were killed in an ilegal war?

I stand by my comments.

this new atrocity is no more news worthy that the original atrocity. now we must move forward.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:04   #7
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
are you suggesting that it would be more important if british citizens were killed in an ilegal war?
By "here" I meant "the current situation" - i.e in Iraq. My apology for poor phrasing.
Quote:
now we must move forward.
I would agree if our troops were out of Iraq (and elsewhere) and were not likely to endanger any other nation in the foreseeable future. Sadly that is not the case.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:10   #8
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I would agree if our troops were out of Iraq (and elsewhere) and were not likely to endanger any other nation in the foreseeable future. Sadly that is not the case.
what is done is done and can not be now amended, men shall deal unadvisably sometimes.

you can't fix a pot after you've broken it. the stupid politicians wanted the war. we should punish them. but we should also now help make the peace that we so casually destroyed.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:11   #9
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
this new atrocity is no more news worthy that the original atrocity. now we must move forward.
I think it is, because the fact that the US is denying there's anything wrong with it means that they're perfectly happy to roast potential civilian targets (as most targets in guerrilla warfare will be) with substances like white phosphorous. It's current (and future) policy, that's why it's news worthy.
The BBC website has a fantastic interview with Colonel Barry Venable, a pentagon spokesman, who sounds incredibly ignorant about the entire thing, yet trying is to defend it. Somehow you get the impression that he was aching to say "don't ask me, I just give the orders to drop the stuff".
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:41   #10
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

White phosphorous isn't a 'chemical weapon' per se. Nice try though.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:50   #11
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Didnt it say differently in the article?
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:52   #12
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniborp
Didnt it say differently in the article?
actually it's a very complicated legal argument.

i'm going to hide from you what my conclusion was on acually bothering to research the point. because i don't think it'd do any good if i told you.

I stand by my original post.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:54   #13
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Explosives are chemical weapons too. Should we not use those? They cause burns, etc.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:57   #14
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuddley_Battleship
Explosives are chemical weapons too. Should we not use those? They cause burns, etc.
see.

I was actually trying to prevent this silliness.

but given your absurd reply. yes. yes is the answer. yes we shouldn't use explosives.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 03:04   #15
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

yawhe you're just as confusing as women...
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 03:40   #16
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

When I was in the Marines we trained with white phosphorus. While yes it is a chemical, it's not generally seen as a 'weapon of mass destruction.' It's a localised incendiary, and yes being hit with it is incredibly painful, and fatal. No unless you're right next to the blast it doesn't kill you right away. It's fired from artillery and there are WP grenades. One time we played with a white phosphorus grenade, we set it off inside of an ammo can and it melted through two of them. None of these things are similiar to the shit Saddamn used on his own people. I call this article bullshit. :0

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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 03:56   #17
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Guess who's been using chemical weapons.

So, Napalm-like weapons. Chemical Weapons. Depleted Uranium Shells. Torture. Carpet Bombing of civilian areas. Huge "daisy-cutter" bombs.

Is there anyone around who'd like to defend any of this?
without wanting to get into the whole "war is bad / necessary" thing

a possible defence...

Napalm-like weapons.
Chemical Weapons.

I assume you are referring to the WP weapons with both these points. Just reading the guardian article I don’t personally see 100% that the WP is any more a chemical weapon than C4 or any other explosive that exploits its chemical properties to adversely effect humans. This definition is pretty weak so personally I would go by what is listed in the schedules of the Chemical Weapons Convention which WP isn’t

Depleted Uranium Shells.
I confess that I don’t know a whole lot about these but as far as I know OFFICALLY they haven’t got any proven link with cancer in either soldiers using them or soldiers on the receiving end. I am aware of numerous documentaries showing children or people living in the vicinity of tanks destroyed using DU with horrendous tumours, however the tests run by the (corrupt / evil) government have not shown any link so it’s fair to use them?
If there weapons have been banned / proven to cause cancer to civilians in scientific tests then fair enough, I concede this point

Torture
yes it is agreed there has been torture! however there will always be the point that it was carried out by "a few bad eggs" and has not been an order or protocol given from those above.


Carpet Bombing of civilian areas
please define "carpet bombing" and "civilian areas" or give me any links regarding this happening. I haven’t really followed the events in the Iraq as vigilantly as you / the guardian so I haven’t seen any clear cut cases either way

Huge "daisy-cutter" bombs.
yes they use bombs in wars. I am not aware this type of weapon is illegal or needs defending


As bored as I am reading guardian articles about how bad America is; I agree with Dante that these things do need to be highlighted because I feel that if nobody protested about the torture / chemical weapon allegations that do come out’ they would begin to be seen in a more acceptable light and their use could become more widespread

I do also agree with Yahwe that; *it would be nice to reduce the complaining about this shit and start focusing on improving it
EDIT
*"We all know that america has committed gross legal wrongs and gross moral wrongs in this war. I do not see the point of debating another one in public."
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:00   #18
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

white phosphorus can be used to illuminate, say, artillery installations, allowing you to avoid bombing civilians. or it can be used to make civilians writhe and scream as their skin melts off.

guns can be used to take out soldiers while leaving nearby civilians unharmed. or you can shoot civilians in the cock an' balls and laugh while they cry.

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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:01   #19
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
When I was in the Marines we trained with white phosphorus. While yes it is a chemical, it's not generally seen as a 'weapon of mass destruction.' It's a localised incendiary, and yes being hit with it is incredibly painful, and fatal. No unless you're right next to the blast it doesn't kill you right away. It's fired from artillery and there are WP grenades. One time we played with a white phosphorus grenade, we set it off inside of an ammo can and it melted through two of them. None of these things are similiar to the shit Saddamn used on his own people. I call this article bullshit. :0

I'm just a basket of information today.
So as long as we are better than Saddamn; those Iraqis have it pretty sweet?
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:05   #20
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Slayer

I do also agree with Yahwe that it would be nice to reduce the complaining about this shit and start focusing on improving it
that wasn't what I said.

If you want to summarise me then i prefer this: "We all know that america has committed gross legal wrongs and gross moral wrongs in this war. I do not see the point of debating another one in public."
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:05   #21
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Slayer
So as long as we are better than Saddamn; those Iraqis have it pretty sweet?
Yes, indeed.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:08   #22
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Since a bullet contains chemicals in it that cause it to fire when punctured with a tiny pin, I think we should start calling hand guns chemical weapons. In fact since, cars are powered by chemicals, if you are run over by one, then you were just killed by a chemical weapon. :/
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:09   #23
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Since a bullet contains a chemicals in it that cause it to fire when punctured with a tiny pin, I think we should start calling hand guns chemical weapons. In fact since, cars are powered by chemicals, if you are run over by one, then you were just killed by a chemical weapon. :/
yes

that is helpful

thank you for that.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:10   #24
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

didja know if you save a chick (or dude if that's how you swing) from being violently raped, it's okay to rape them yourself as long as you are demonstrably gentler about it than it otherwise would have been. sean hannity knows all.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 05:55   #25
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

It was in the Guardian, where can an argument lie?
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 05:59   #26
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
It was in the Guardian, where can an argument lie?
leave this thread my friend.

before i am forced to correct you

12 and a half hours ago now I recommended not posting a thread on this topic. ste missed that advice.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 06:04   #27
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Correct what?
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 06:07   #28
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Correct what?
do you really want me to?

or would you prefer me to just advise that this particular topic is ignored.

I know which i would prefer. "what is done is done"
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 06:11   #29
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

I made a joke at the Guardian's expense. Does that need correction?
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 06:14   #30
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
I made a joke at the Guardian's expense. Does that need correction?
not if you know what the guardian is.

and not if you understand that the guardian wasn't alone in running this story front page (yesterday)

EDIT: It is my opinion that the use of White Phosphorus (which we do stock in the British army) Is not a question of whether americe 'did right' or 'did wrong'. We know what america did, america also pulled us into an expensive (yes we are a poor country now) and ileagal war.

The issue of whether White Phosphorus is a chemical weapon or isn't when used to win a siege is a none question.

There have been so many many things that were worse.

Britains present government will fall, be it a question of weeks or months: it will fall.

I never wanted this issue of chemical weapons brought up. It is a silly debate: a lot of that debate is schemantics.

What concerns me is what is to come. Do not be surprised If Britain abandons you. Allies for years. Special relationship. All good things come to an end.

When our goverment falls the new one might be pro american. but my friend. it is a matter of time. until we admit to ourselves that your country is ill.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 09:46   #31
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Slayer
As bored as I am reading guardian articles about how bad America is;
I have heard this argument from a few people, and it's necessary to mention :

1. The Guardian was, as a newspaper, not entirely against the war. They covered anti-war stories in greater detail than any newspaper except the Independent or The Mirror, but their editorial line, from what I can recall, was not equivocal. They covered many pro-War stories.

2. In previous military interventions such as the bombing of Serbia the Guardian has been positively wet over American involvement. Here too they covered anti-bombing stories but they were disproportionately found in G2 or buried inside the paper.

3. Recently, the Guardian carried an appalling interview with Noam Chomsky. Those who hold the Guardian in any sort of high regard, or merely thinks of them as some sort of liberal anti-US stalwart might want to read this.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 09:52   #32
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Since a bullet contains chemicals in it that cause it to fire when punctured with a tiny pin, I think we should start calling hand guns chemical weapons. In fact since, cars are powered by chemicals, if you are run over by one, then you were just killed by a chemical weapon. :/
http://www.opcw.org/html/db/cwc/eng/cwc_menu.html

Start with Article 2 and proceed to "Annex on chemicals" if need be.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 10:05   #33
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramihyn
http://www.opcw.org/html/db/cwc/eng/cwc_menu.html

Start with Article 2 and proceed to "Annex on chemicals" if need be.
1. "Chemical Weapons" means the following, together or separately:

(a) Toxic chemicals and their precursors, except where intended for purposes not prohibited under this Convention, as long as the types and quantities are consistent with such purposes;

(b) Munitions and devices, specifically designed to cause death or other harm through the toxic properties of those toxic chemicals specified in subparagraph (a), which would be released as a result of the employment of such munitions and devices;

(c) Any equipment specifically designed for use directly in connection with the employment of munitions and devices specified in subparagraph (b).

WP doesn't fall under any of these.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 10:42   #34
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Yahwe.
If you don't want to debate it then leave the thread but please don't tell us what we should and shouldn't talk about.

I feel it is necessary to discuss this topic so it stays fresh in peoples minds. If we stop discussing it, people will forget.

Anyway, the fact that the article is from the Guardian is a non-issue. It was just the first article I read about the topic.

To Another Slayer - By Napalm-like weapons I don't mean WP. If I wasn't at work I'd search for an article about it... but it's taken me 30 mins to write this post so far so I'll leave it for someone else if that's ok. But weapons very similar to napalm have been used.
Torture has been widely used with prisoners in Iraq and around the world. It's not just a few bad eggs but unofficial interrogation policy.
The daisy-cutter bomb isn't a normal bomb. It's indiscriminate and destroys a large area.

Hopefully Yahwe's "advice" will be ignored and we can discuss something that may be interesting to a lot of people.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 16:18   #35
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Yahwe.
If you don't want to debate it then leave the thread but please don't tell us what we should and shouldn't talk about.

I feel it is necessary to discuss this topic so it stays fresh in peoples minds. If we stop discussing it, people will forget.

Anyway, the fact that the article is from the Guardian is a non-issue. It was just the first article I read about the topic.

To Another Slayer - By Napalm-like weapons I don't mean WP. If I wasn't at work I'd search for an article about it... but it's taken me 30 mins to write this post so far so I'll leave it for someone else if that's ok. But weapons very similar to napalm have been used.
Torture has been widely used with prisoners in Iraq and around the world. It's not just a few bad eggs but unofficial interrogation policy.
The daisy-cutter bomb isn't a normal bomb. It's indiscriminate and destroys a large area.

Hopefully Yahwe's "advice" will be ignored and we can discuss something that may be interesting to a lot of people.
The Guardian
I don’t read the guardian, so I don’t want to get into a debate about whether or not its pro/anti war. It wasn’t me aim to suggest it was one side or another, I was just using it as an example that its all too common that we (I don’t mean just GD, I mean every where) get a thread posted with a link and a fairly unimaginative “America is shit” post underneath. I am not trying to attack Ste or anyone else here, this is a generic example

Napalm-like weapons
Without knowing specifically what you are talking about, can we not assume that this sort of weapon will fall into some sort of grey area similar to WP where we know it is a horrific way to kill somebody but it has not yet been specifically banned from warfare?

Torture has been widely used with prisoners in Iraq and around the world.
Well it does seem torture has been used in Iraq for sure, though I am not aware of it being widely carrier out by American or British soldiers / officials. I don’t really know if it is fair or not to blame what the Iraqi security services do on the American / British forces.

The daisy-cutter bomb isn't a normal bomb. It's indiscriminate and destroys a large area
Yes it is considerably bigger than most, and it’s unguided as far as I know (basically thrown out the back of a large plane). It’s pretty indiscriminate but, so are all unguided bombs. I don’t see why this is any worse than any other, it just depends how it is used like any other weapon. Dropping this on a "training camp" way out in the desert is no different to dropping 100 smaller bombs or using the controversial cluster bombs I am surprised you have not mentioned yet.

In addition these weapons have been considered key in the "shock and awe" plan, which as far as I know was devised to reduce the number of people killed, by demotivating the enemy so they wouldn’t fight.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 16:41   #36
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Slayer
by demotivating the enemy so they wouldn’t fight.
Doesn't seem to have worked.

Also, thermobaric frikken rocket launchers seem an unpleasant weapon to be the other end of too. (not that any weapon is, per se)
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 16:44   #37
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
Doesn't seem to have worked.

Also, thermobaric frikken rocket launchers seem an unpleasant weapon to be the other end of too. (not that any weapon is, per se)

yeh, well i guess it was aimed at demotivating the soldiers in the initial stages of the "war". Doing the same to "insurgents" is a different thing.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:51   #38
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

ah yeh cluster bombs. That was another thing I was thinking of but couldn't pluck the name out of my mind.

Napalm - http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=181796 (heh another thread by me)
EDIT
Quote:
While the United States military has adamantly denied using napalm in its invasion of Iraq, U.S. Military personnel have confirmed that they did use “Mark 77 Firebombs,” an incendiary bomb strikingly similar to napalm. The only difference between napalm and Mark 77's is that Mark 77 bombs utilize kerosene-based jet fuel rather than using gasoline and benzene. The destructive effects are essentially the same. This is likely why U.S. military personnel and the press repeatedly referred to the use of Mark 77 firebombs as “napalm.”
[/EDIT]

Regarding torture, you must have been watching the news in the last few weeks? Sending prisoners to be tortured around the world has been acknowledged. This one is from a year ago
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 18:01   #39
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Ste, I object to the suffering of people too. This war should have been avoided, as is pretty clear to almost everyone these days,including the Bush administration!, but there is need for some types of weapons in order for professional soldiers to do their work. I honestly hate war, but can you an imagine a situation when it would be called for, and when it is, should we not equip our soldiers appropriately so that they can do their job?
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 18:18   #40
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
ah yeh cluster bombs. That was another thing I was thinking of but couldn't pluck the name out of my mind.

Napalm - http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=181796 (heh another thread by me)
EDIT

[/EDIT]

Regarding torture, you must have been watching the news in the last few weeks? Sending prisoners to be tortured around the world has been acknowledged. This one is from a year ago
These mark 77 fire bombs are NOT NAPALM, they are just a horrible and deserve to be banned as they are exactly the same as napalm and carry all the same negative effects, but they are not specifically named as banned weapons, so to my understanding they fall into the same grey area as WP

my pc has been down the last couple of weeks so i havent been keeping upto date with the news, i dont know alot about these deporting prisioners to countries where torture is common place. i dont know if there is any extradition limitations that the US should obersve in this sence.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 18:24   #41
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mushroom
I think it is, because the fact that the US is denying there's anything wrong with it means that they're perfectly happy to roast potential civilian targets (as most targets in guerrilla warfare will be) with substances like white phosphorous. It's current (and future) policy, that's why it's news worthy.
The BBC website has a fantastic interview with Colonel Barry Venable, a pentagon spokesman, who sounds incredibly ignorant about the entire thing, yet trying is to defend it. Somehow you get the impression that he was aching to say "don't ask me, I just give the orders to drop the stuff".
Public Relations is a wonderful thing.

It's one of the few things that prevents governments from napalming an entire country to win a war.

that, and oil...
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 18:41   #42
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Slayer
These mark 77 fire bombs are NOT NAPALM, they are just a horrible and deserve to be banned as they are exactly the same as napalm and carry all the same negative effects, but they are not specifically named as banned weapons, so to my understanding they fall into the same grey area as WP
Hence why I said napalm-like weapons pretty much all through this thread.
EDIT "While napalm is made from petrol and polystyrene, the gel in the mark 77 is made from kerosene and polystyrene."[/EDIT]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Slayer
my pc has been down the last couple of weeks so i havent been keeping upto date with the news,
Is that your excuse for ignoring me on msn?
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Last edited by Ste; 16 Nov 2005 at 19:41.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 19:36   #43
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Slayer
These mark 77 fire bombs are NOT NAPALM, they are just a horrible and deserve to be banned as they are exactly the same as napalm and carry all the same negative effects, but they are not specifically named as banned weapons, so to my understanding they fall into the same grey area as WP
Actually from what i did read, WP isnt "grey area" - there is a addendum treaty to ban WP as a weapon but the US hasnt signed it. I havent researched if thats true though.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 19:52   #44
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

ste, im not accusing you of saying mk 77 WERE napalm, i am saying that as they are not napalm they are not banned weapons.

my understanding is that WP was banned as a weapon when used against civilians, which the US hasnt signed
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 20:02   #45
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Re: Chemical Weapons. Iraq.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Slayer
ste, im not accusing you of saying mk 77 WERE napalm, i am saying that as they are not napalm they are not banned weapons.

my understanding is that WP was banned as a weapon when used against civilians, which the US hasnt signed
It's also banned to shoot 50 caliber at human targets. Our weapons instructors told us this in the Marines, they told us instead to shoot at their equipment (for instance the helmet they are wearing, or the flak jaket, or the the dog tags around their neck).
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