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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 11:23   #1
wu_trax
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open source

this is how you carry the concept to the next level
http://www.voresoel.dk/main.php?id=70

there live strange people in denmark
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 12:07   #2
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Re: open source

it's a cool idea though, I don't think that it will lead to anything but it's funny anyway
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 12:57   #3
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Re: open source

I've often thought that it would be possible (and desirable) to have the proper recipe (or blueprints) on the container of any product (where appropriate). Brew your own Coca Cola (if you could be bothered).

Some people seem to get a genuine pleasure out of baking their own cakes, etc - so why not brew their own Coca Cola?
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 13:29   #4
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Some people seem to get a genuine pleasure out of baking their own cakes, etc - so why not brew their own Coca Cola?
Because small shady companies would start producing Coca Cola and selling it below the price that the Coca Cola Company wants it to be sold for, thereby costing them millions of dollars in revenue.

Cue debate on copyright and intellectual property.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 14:54   #5
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Exclamation Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Because small shady companies would start producing Coca Cola and selling it below the price that the Coca Cola Company wants it to be sold for, thereby costing them millions of dollars in revenue.

Cue debate on copyright and intellectual property.
The formula for coca cola is not patented (or copyrighted), it's a trade secret. I'm not sure it's possible to have an IP debate on trade secrets (unless you want to claim that people shouldn't be allowed to keep secrets, or something).
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 14:57   #6
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Re: open source

Ofc you could always start your own open source coke and maybe come close or even brake the coca cola formula
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 15:07   #7
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Because small shady companies would start producing Coca Cola and selling it below the price that the Coca Cola Company wants it to be sold for, thereby costing them millions of dollars in revenue.

Cue debate on copyright and intellectual property.
which would reduce the cost of coca cola, which is good for the consumer, and as we are all consumers, and this is appliable to anything, it would reduce the cost of living for everyone, thus making me (and you) a happy bunny.
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Last edited by vampire_lestat; 20 Jul 2005 at 15:09. Reason: added correct quote so it made sense.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 15:14   #8
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Because small shady companies would start producing Coca Cola and selling it below the price that the Coca Cola Company wants it to be sold for, thereby costing them millions of dollars in revenue.
Why would they be "shady"?

Also, I'm not sure. Coca Cola may spend ("waste") a lot of money on marketing but I'd imagine they're reasonably efficient in terms of production. If they can't, with their economies of scale, produce their syrup (or whatever) cheaper than anyone else then I'm not sure there's much hope for them in the longer term. Although they invest some money in R&D and the like it's not like the drugs companies which are investment heavy or whatnot.

Finally, my comments more referred to a society which wasn't primarily profit-motivated.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 15:19   #9
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Re: open source

If coke was patented they would have to reveal the exact brew. As it is, they protect their ass with nasty non disclosure clauses in their employee's contracts.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 15:45   #10
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by vampire_lestat
which would reduce the cost of coca cola, which is good for the consumer, and as we are all consumers, and this is appliable to anything, it would reduce the cost of living for everyone, thus making me (and you) a happy bunny.
and it would stop coca cola from deveoping any new drinks, because they cant protect their new idea. patents in general are not such a bad idea, as long as they last only as long as it takes for the company to earn back their development costs (how to archive that, i have no idea ) ofc you also have to make sure you dont end up with ridiculous (for some reaon i really like that word) patents like a patent on a 'one-click-buy'.
i thought i post a funny link and you people turn it into an open-source discussion :/

PS. and who is the idiot who negrepped me? if you dont like this thread or open source than dont ****in read it.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 15:48   #11
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Re: open source

That's what you get in a forum called General Discussions
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 15:51   #12
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
and it would stop coca cola from deveoping any new drinks, because they cant protect their new idea.
This is not necessarily true. As Tact has already said, this is NOT a patent issue.

Also you're assuming that without legal protection no-one will develop anything. This is not a given.

If they don't want to produce any new drinks then fine. But someone will, and if the new drink tastes better than Coca Cola, they'll lose out. Plenty of services do not have this protection yet innovation still takes place. Do you think the first Chinese Restaurant to do a delivery service deserved a 15 year (or even 2 month?) patent on the concept?
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 15:56   #13
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Re: open source

they dont lose out, because they can simply copy it and then sell it cheaper because they dont have the development costs (coke is a bad example, but drugs for example can cost quite a lot to develope and seem to be easy to copy)
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 15:56   #14
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Re: open source

Actually only a handful of Coke employees know the actual recipe. I believe its held by the CEO and 2 other people on the board of directors.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 16:01   #15
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
they dont lose out, because they can simply copy it and then sell it cheaper because they dont have the development costs (coke is a bad example, but drugs for example can cost quite a lot to develope and seem to be easy to copy)
How can coke be a "bad example" when it's what we're talking about?
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 16:03   #16
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
The formula for coca cola is not patented (or copyrighted), it's a trade secret. I'm not sure it's possible to have an IP debate on trade secrets (unless you want to claim that people shouldn't be allowed to keep secrets, or something).
One could agree that it's ridicilous that NDA's are covered by trade-secret laws though.

It is after all, a contract between two parties, and thus it is absurd that third parties in any way, as it is now, are bound by it.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 16:05   #17
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
How can coke be a "bad example" when it's what we're talking about?
if there is no actual patent on the recipe then its kind of hard to use it as an example for why patents are not such a bad idea.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 16:13   #18
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
if there is no actual patent on the recipe then its kind of hard to use it as an example for why patents are not such a bad idea.
I realise this, but I wasn't talking about patents.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 16:38   #19
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Why would they be "shady"?
Presumably because any company that could produce Coca Cola would not actually call it Coca Cola
Quote:
Also, I'm not sure. Coca Cola may spend ("waste") a lot of money on marketing but I'd imagine they're reasonably efficient in terms of production.
That doesn't mean they're willing to sell it for bottom prices, though.
Quote:
Finally, my comments more referred to a society which wasn't primarily profit-motivated.
Unfortunately ours is

Also, I forgot about the fact that the Coca Cola recipe is in fact not patented because of the need for it to be documented in such a case. Thanks to Tactitus for reminding me of this. I actually feel this is a better solution than slamming patents on everything.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 18:56   #20
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Exclamation Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
Also, I forgot about the fact that the Coca Cola recipe is in fact not patented because of the need for it to be documented in such a case.
I think a more important factor is the fact that patents do eventually expire. Coca Cola did patent their original recipe but when their patent expired they came up with their current recipe and kept it a trade secret.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 19:18   #21
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
If they don't want to produce any new drinks then fine. But someone will, and if the new drink tastes better than Coca Cola, they'll lose out. Plenty of services do not have this protection yet innovation still takes place. Do you think the first Chinese Restaurant to do a delivery service deserved a 15 year (or even 2 month?) patent on the concept?
Did coming up with delivery services take many months/years of research and cost thousands/millions of dollars?
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 19:35   #22
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Re: open source

Maybe Coca Cola could publish that original recipe. The one with the coca leaves. There are some on GD who would probably like to give it a go.
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 22:10   #23
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Did coming up with delivery services take many months/years of research and cost thousands/millions of dollars?
Yeah you're right, pragmatism over-rides liberty, I forgot.

edit : Less sarcastically, would you support a tax/extortion system if it could be proved it led to economic growth?
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Unread 20 Jul 2005, 22:20   #24
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Less sarcastically, would you support a tax/extortion system if it could be proved it led to economic growth?
Yes
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Unread 21 Jul 2005, 13:50   #25
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yeah you're right, pragmatism over-rides liberty, I forgot.

edit : Less sarcastically, would you support a tax/extortion system if it could be proved it led to economic growth?
It depends on how soon the growth was, how high the taxes were etc, but in theory, yes.
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Unread 28 Jul 2005, 21:29   #26
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Re: open source

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4718719.stm

Bumped to include BBC article, thought it may be of some interest to someone.
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 06:04   #27
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yeah you're right, pragmatism over-rides liberty, I forgot.

edit : Less sarcastically, would you support a tax/extortion system if it could be proved it led to economic growth?
If the tax were an additional 20 percent of my gross income, then no. If it were two or three percent, then yes.

Increased taxes solely for the purpose of economic growth seems to me like it would help rich people and harm poor people. And guys like me in the middle class would do ok if I still had enough money left after the tax to invest in the growing economy. 10 years ago, a three percent increase in taxes would just about effectively take me out of investing in the economy.
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 07:39   #28
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan
If the tax were an additional 20 percent of my gross income, then no. If it were two or three percent, then yes.
My question was aimed at Nod, since from memory he opposes taxation on ethical grounds, not practical ones.

The point is that "right" Libertarians (to me) seem to say that they oppose taxation/welfare systems on moral/ethical gorunds - that it is wrong to curb freedom and so even if taxation did lead to economic benefits it should still be opposed. But with patents all ethical grounds (to me at least) seem to be dropped and we're back to pragmatism. I'm interested in the (apparent) contradiction.

A cynic would note that welfare systems might be seen to benefit the poor, and patent systems might seem to benefit the rich, but I'm sure that's entirely coincidental.

If there is some sort of ethical defence of patents then I honestly don't see what difference the cost of invention makes. If I invent a cure for cancer in my garage somehow (costing me practically nothing) are we saying that I "deserve" no legal protection because I incurred no costs?
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Unread 29 Jul 2005, 15:42   #29
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Exclamation Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
My question was aimed at Nod, since from memory he opposes taxation on ethical grounds, not practical ones.

The point is that "right" Libertarians (to me) seem to say that they oppose taxation/welfare systems on moral/ethical gorunds - that it is wrong to curb freedom and so even if taxation did lead to economic benefits it should still be opposed. But with patents all ethical grounds (to me at least) seem to be dropped and we're back to pragmatism. I'm interested in the (apparent) contradiction.
I think the contradiction exists only if you don't believe in intellectual property. If you believe in IP then of course the state should protect your rights to your IP (just as the state should protect your rights to your physical property). If you don't believe in IP, then yeah, patents and copyrights would be just arbitrary state-backed coercion.
Quote:
If there is some sort of ethical defence of patents then I honestly don't see what difference the cost of invention makes. If I invent a cure for cancer in my garage somehow (costing me practically nothing) are we saying that I "deserve" no legal protection because I incurred no costs?
Agreed. The cost of producing IP is irrelevant.
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 12:44   #30
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yeah you're right, pragmatism over-rides liberty, I forgot.

edit : Less sarcastically, would you support a tax/extortion system if it could be proved it led to economic growth?
No, of course not.

And its nothing to do with pragmatism. The ethical basis of intellectual property laws is to allow people to 'own' (in a metaphorical sense) the products of their intellectual labour. As such, you cant really compare someone saying 'hey lets deliver pizzas to customers' with a multimillion pound investment over many years geared towards researching a cure for cancer. Not that this has anything to do with your original point, which concerned the likilood of "innovation taking place". Without IP laws, innovation will still take place in an environment where advances cost next to nothing, but its a differerent story for things which require significant investment.
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 14:51   #31
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The ethical basis of intellectual property laws is to allow people to 'own' (in a metaphorical sense) the products of their intellectual labour.
Which really is, as Dante said and the rest of your post shows, a pragramatic reason.

I think there can be no doubt that patents are limitiations on "our freedom". IE: Several research teams researching the same subject is not a very uncommon, however as it stands now, the first time to break the patent will get exclusive rights. The key issue and main problem as far as I see it is thus, that other research teams may make the same breakthroughs, without any knowledge of the first teams work at all and they will still not be allowed to use their own invention. You are thus not only barred from copying the invention, you are barred from doing the same invention yourself, even if it can be conclusivly proved that it was impossible for you to have any knowledge of other work whatsoever at the time you discovered it. Since the world is a fairly big place nowadays, similar solutions will be found irrespective of eachothers research.

Being a former member of 'Unge Høyre' (young conservatives), I was always puzzled of how the individualistic, freedom-loving and 'no government' types would always be pro-patents. I too concluded that it was due to this specific limitation benefit the rich/upper class which were most of them came from. It was my first step in becoming less naive
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 15:32   #32
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Re: open source

ive never understood this cocacola secret recipe business. They know the chemical and molecular make up of coca cola and what ingredients got them there, im sure it isn't a 'top secret uber secret' coca cola is brewed in practically every country, how could they not know the recipe?
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 15:39   #33
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Re: open source

http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/formula.asp





edit

and for what its worth diet pepsi tastes better than anything including real coke.
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 17:05   #34
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/formula.asp





edit

and for what its worth diet pepsi tastes better than anything including real coke.
Lies and blasphamy. Pepsi is a horrible drink compared to coke.
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 17:25   #35
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Re: open source

Pepsi is awsome, just not with alcohol.
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 18:58   #36
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
Which really is, as Dante said and the rest of your post shows, a pragramatic reason.
Why? What do you mean by pragmatic?
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 19:13   #37
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
I too concluded that it was due to this specific limitation benefit the rich/upper class which were most of them came from
I'm not sure where you got this idea from, but it's quite wrong. If everyone was allowed to produce and sell whatever they liked, who do you think would come off best; large corporations and rich individuals with signficant financial resources to direct towards production and marketing, or the inventors who actually come up with new ideas?
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 19:21   #38
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
The key issue and main problem as far as I see it is thus, that other research teams may make the same breakthroughs, without any knowledge of the first teams work at all and they will still not be allowed to use their own invention. You are thus not only barred from copying the invention, you are barred from doing the same invention yourself, even if it can be conclusivly proved that it was impossible for you to have any knowledge of other work whatsoever at the time you discovered it. Since the world is a fairly big place nowadays, similar solutions will be found irrespective of eachothers research.
So when the research department of MegaCorp1 patents something the research dept of MegaCorp2 was working on, why is that something you care about?

A patent may be an exclusive right, but the first thing any inventor does is sell the patent to the highest bidder, who will then licence the patent as they see fit. You aren't barred, you're just obliged to pay whoever invented it first. The researchers that come in second place will get paid either way; they'll be working for a large company, or venture capitalists, or some similar form of insurance, unless they were silly.

There is the issue of fair competition: companies could hoard patents from their competitors. Hence the idea of "reasonable and non-discriminatory licensing" on software patents on things like MPEG. But it's no different from any other property in this respect - if Coca-Cola gained marketshare from Pepsi, they might offer to buy up some of Pepsi's factories (and change the labels), and if Pepsi really wanted to refuse they could, even though it'd harm consumers.
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 19:23   #39
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Why? What do you mean by pragmatic?
By pragmatic I mean regular reasoning applies over ideology.

Pro-market no-government-interference types by definition believe in some variant of 'the market / people / business is inheretly better at sorting out stuff itself'. They generally apply this to mean that various government responsibilites should not be government responsibilites at all. This includes, but is not limited to (remove from list depending on how moderate you are): public healthcare, unemployment benefits / social security, psychatriac help, help for disabled, childcare services, fire brigades, universities , schools, public transports, roads / ferries / rails, telecom infrastructure, etc

Patents however, is never on that list. This is always (atleast in my experience) the one single area where "the market" all of a sudden is completly unable to correct itself and the government needs to step in and regulate, creating artificial barriers to free competion in order to 'make it profitable to research'.
Incidently, it is also the one item which benefits the establishment.
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 19:39   #40
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
So when the research department of MegaCorp1 patents something the research dept of MegaCorp2 was working on, why is that something you care about?
Incidently, I couldn't care less about MegaCorp2 losing money. I'm only bewildered by the fact that free-trade people considers patents to be a natural state of things, as opposed to the artificial barrier to free trade that it really is. My stance on patents is that I'm against them on ideological grounds, but I do see that reasoning for them.
Quote:
A patent may be an exclusive right, but the first thing any inventor does is sell the patent to the highest bidder, who will then licence the patent as they see fit. You aren't barred, you're just obliged to pay whoever invented it first.
Which might mean your own reseatch was invalidated, as you no longer own it. I don't consider this fair.
Quote:
The researchers that come in second place will get paid either way; they'll be working for a large company, or venture capitalists, or some similar form of insurance, unless they were silly.
That's a roundabout argument. You're basically saying that it doesn't matter if their research is invalidated due to the fact that they probably have some sort of insurance against it because they knew it might happen. Should we allow robbery, because people could just get insurance against it?
Quote:
There is the issue of fair competition: companies could hoard patents from their competitors.
Hence the idea of "reasonable and non-discriminatory licensing" on software patents on things like MPEG.
Another intrusion of the state into the market, to keep this awful hack working.
Quote:
But it's no different from any other property in this respect - if Coca-Cola gained marketshare from Pepsi, they might offer to buy up some of Pepsi's factories (and change the labels), and if Pepsi really wanted to refuse they could, even though it'd harm consumers.
Marketshare isn't property, and is ultimatly controlled by the consumers. You actually have to produce something somebody wants. Patents, on the other hand, are "property" arbitrarely given out by the government hindering the market from competing.
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 19:43   #41
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
concentrated syrop is distributed to all the factories around the world, which mix it with whatever and put it in cans/bottles

nah im pretty sure even the syrup is made locally, which is the reason that fanta for example tastes different in different countries (different oranges apparently) but read the link it says im right
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 19:58   #42
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
By pragmatic I mean regular reasoning applies over ideology.

Pro-market no-government-interference types by definition believe in some variant of 'the market / people / business is inheretly better at sorting out stuff itself'. They generally apply this to mean that various government responsibilites should not be government responsibilites at all. This includes, but is not limited to (remove from list depending on how moderate you are): public healthcare, unemployment benefits / social security, psychatriac help, help for disabled, childcare services, fire brigades, universities , schools, public transports, roads / ferries / rails, telecom infrastructure, etc

Patents however, is never on that list. This is always (atleast in my experience) the one single area where "the market" all of a sudden is completly unable to correct itself and the government needs to step in and regulate, creating artificial barriers to free competion in order to 'make it profitable to research'.
When I'm defending a "neo-liberal" position I maintain that rights should be arranged so as to maximise individual liberty (sort of freedom + prosperity as I see it). Patents are not particularly coersive, any more than land rights. They're a recognition of rights like any other, with apparatus to define those rights, just as in land rights. I certainly don't think the government should hold IP. How is this inconsistent?

Quote:
Incidently, it is also the one item which benefits the establishment.
Without patents, the only financial incentive to do research is that it increases the value of capital you already own; with patents, research has value by itself. The establishment would win either way.

That rich people own capital doesn't mean that capital is an arbitrary whim of the bourgeoisie; that (often publically owned) companies hold lots of patents is even less of a reason to be cynical of patents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
Incidently, I couldn't care less about MegaCorp2 losing money. I'm only bewildered by the fact that free-trade people considers patents to be a natural state of things, as opposed to the artificial barrier to free trade that it really is. My stance on patents is that I'm against them on ideological grounds, but I do see that reasoning for them.
What do you believe is the origin and justification of property rights? Do you go in for anything like "homesteading"?

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That's a roundabout argument. You're basically saying that it doesn't matter if their research is invalidated due to the fact that they probably have some sort of insurance against it because they knew it might happen. Should we allow robbery, because people could just get insurance against it?
No, but you should allow driving even though it puts others at risk, etc. We could declare personal possessions as fair game for robbers but then no-one would carry anything around except with private defence, like in Somalia or something.

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Another intrusion of the state into the market, to keep this awful hack working.
Nothing to do with the state FYI.

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Marketshare isn't property, and is ultimatly controlled by the consumers. You actually have to produce something somebody wants. Patents, on the other hand, are "property" arbitrarely given out by the government hindering the market from competing.
The factories are property though, and can be hoarded anti-competitively. Just pointing out that patents rarely "bar" anything, and when they do, it's the same situation as other property.
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 20:39   #43
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Re: open source

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Originally Posted by queball
Patents are not particularly coersive, any more than land rights.
Not much time to reply atm, but this made me laugh.
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Unread 30 Jul 2005, 20:54   #44
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
When I'm defending a "neo-liberal" position I maintain that rights should be arranged so as to maximise individual liberty (sort of freedom + prosperity as I see it). Patents are not particularly coersive, any more than land rights. They're a recognition of rights like any other, with apparatus to define those rights, just as in land rights. I certainly don't think the government should hold IP. How is this inconsistent?
Property rights pertain to physical items. Intellectual property restricts what you are allowed to do in your own private home. Surely you must see a difference?

Quote:
Without patents, the only financial incentive to do research is that it increases the value of capital you already own; with patents, research has value by itself. The establishment would win either way.
Without patents, the only financial gain by research is improving your own products yes. However, at the moment the wast majority of groundwork and basic research is done at publically funded universities. General research still doesn't pay itself even with patents, so as it stands now, it is still up to the government to ensure that ground research happens. Patents merely enables oppurtinistic companies to build upon and monopolize the public research we all paid for.

Being a computer geek, you must have noticed how just about every relevant paper and all the major research in computer science was done during the 60-70-early 80's before the 'applied research'-doctrine entered universities? Commercial research is nothing but gradual improvements and patents are extremely unsuited to this environment.
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That rich people own capital doesn't mean that capital is an arbitrary whim of the bourgeoisie; that (often publically owned) companies hold lots of patents is even less of a reason to be cynical of patents.
As I see it, it is another step in the 'capital breed capital' ladder enabling those who have to ensure that they keep on having. (since I'm on a tangent now anyways: if inheritance was disallowed, capitalism would make a damn lot more of sense)
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What do you believe is the origin and justification of property rights? Do you go in for anything like "homesteading"?
Intellectual Property is a bullshit term, and an entirely new one at that. Physical property is tangible, and you are free to do whatever you want with that property. "Intellectual property" (as in patents) is not tangible and lumping it together with physical property is just plain wrong.

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No, but you should allow driving even though it puts others at risk, etc. We could declare personal possessions as fair game for robbers but then no-one would carry anything around except with private defence, like in Somalia or something.
Yes. Exactly. The driving example is good.

Running over people still isn't allowed is it?
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Nothing to do with the state FYI.
Am I competly wrong? I thought there actually were limitations on how one could apply patents. If not, sorry.
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The factories are property though, and can be hoarded anti-competitively. Just pointing out that patents rarely "bar" anything, and when they do, it's the same situation as other property.
Yes, however the factories are worthless unless they produce something somebody actually wants. As such, they are still bound by the market. And ff there is a market for a product, nobody is stopping someone else from building more factories.

Intellectual property however, is property generated by the state, given out to whoever asks correctly, and is as such not initially based on market pressure. That they can be traded afterwards is of little consquence. If the government started giving outl 'the right to have a child' or 'the right to jump on your left foot' they could probably be sold too. That still wouldn't make it a good idea.
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Unread 31 Jul 2005, 00:15   #45
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
Property rights pertain to physical items. Intellectual property restricts what you are allowed to do in your own private home. Surely you must see a difference?
I see the difference (tangible and intangible assets) but don't see any way in which it is relevant. It would help if you said where and why we have rights. To me, my TV is property in exactly the same way as if I have a share in a company, say.

Quote:
Without patents, the only financial gain by research is improving your own products yes. However, at the moment the wast majority of groundwork and basic research is done at publically funded universities. General research still doesn't pay itself even with patents, so as it stands now, it is still up to the government to ensure that ground research happens. Patents merely enables oppurtinistic companies to build upon and monopolize the public research we all paid for.

Being a computer geek, you must have noticed how just about every relevant paper and all the major research in computer science was done during the 60-70-early 80's before the 'applied research'-doctrine entered universities? Commercial research is nothing but gradual improvements and patents are extremely unsuited to this environment.
I don't really follow the industry, but gradual improvements seem fine. So Apple will research and patent a bunch of pretty new apps and sell them. Apart from the occassional silly court case on slashdot I don't see the problem. I haven't seen Apple doing research recently (like Smalltalk in the 80s) but Microsoft Research (and IBM) do all the same kinds of research as the academics, whether it be HCI or abstract nonsense.

In computers, I'm even surprised by the amount of overlap between Academia and Engineering. I'm baffled that MS Research would study pi-algebras or whatever. We couldn't live without academia but it's confusing the issue here: patents are for industry, for engineers, for neat economical inventions. The pramatist's question is: without patents, where is the incentive for engineers to do what they do? I wouldn't want the local CS department designing my operating system.

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Yes. Exactly. The driving example is good.

Running over people still isn't allowed is it?
Yes. If you drive with due care but have an accident and kill someone you won't go to jail.

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Am I competly wrong? I thought there actually were limitations on how one could apply patents. If not, sorry.
I was just mentioning RAND, which is one way the anticompetitive aspect of patents is mitigated.

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Yes, however the factories are worthless unless they produce something somebody actually wants. As such, they are still bound by the market. And ff there is a market for a product, nobody is stopping someone else from building more factories.
I was trying to make a point about the "dog in the manger" and competitiveness. The factories would be useful to Coke but aren't useful to Pepsi, yet Pepsi might not wish to sell the factories to Coke.

Quote:
Intellectual property however, is property generated by the state, given out to whoever asks correctly, and is as such not initially based on market pressure. That they can be traded afterwards is of little consquence. If the government started giving outl 'the right to have a child' or 'the right to jump on your left foot' they could probably be sold too. That still wouldn't make it a good idea.
A patent has to cover something useful, ie. saleable. Your suggested rights wouldn't have any benefits. But consider the idea behind the Kyoto protocol of selling rights to pollute. That would be introduced purely on the grounds that (1) people value being able to produce pollutants, and (2) a need to discourage polluting and encourage cleaner technology. (not that I wish to go into the Kyoto protocol)
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Unread 31 Jul 2005, 09:51   #46
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
I see the difference (tangible and intangible assets) but don't see any way in which it is relevant. It would help if you said where and why we have rights. To me, my TV is property in exactly the same way as if I have a share in a company, say.
However, a share in a company is something tangible. It entails physical assets, various contracts regarding the company (to employes, to customers, etc) and certain intangibles like reputation and prior market access. There is no need for the government to restrict what I can do in my own home in order for your company to exist. That does not hold for patents.

The thought that patents has anything to do with 'rights' is frankly laughable. It was intented as a temporal monopoly awarded by the government in exchange for releasing the details of ones work, for the primary purpose of making research profitable. I hold that it is no longer needed, or atleast needs massive reforms.
Quote:
I don't really follow the industry, but gradual improvements seem fine. So Apple will research and patent a bunch of pretty new apps and sell them. Apart from the occassional silly court case on slashdot I don't see the problem.
Patents are not necessary to protect applications. The source code is already copyrighted. We all know ideas are a dime a dozen in computer science, and that the devil is the in implementation. What good is patents in this regard? If you don't see the harm in somebody being disallowed to make similiar applications I say you are either blind or stupid!

Where do you think the computer industry would be today if MacOS and AmigaOS had patented their GUI innovations? These patents would still be valid. Microsoft Windows probably wouldn't exist. I remember a quite by Bill Gates saying how lucky we are we the companies in the 80's didn't go on patenting sprees. We aren't that lucky nowadays.

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I haven't seen Apple doing research recently (like Smalltalk in the 80s) but Microsoft Research (and IBM) do all the same kinds of research as the academics, whether it be HCI or abstract nonsense.
Seen anything interesting released?

Besides work on Wavelets, I haven't seen anything remotely interesting in a long time.
Quote:
The pramatist's question is: without patents, where is the incentive for engineers to do what they do? I wouldn't want the local CS department designing my operating system.
Copyrights covers applications. You write it, you own it. Patents covers what other people write. Removing patents wouldn't stop people writing software, it would do exactly the opposite, it would not not stop them.

As you said yourself earlier, without patents the incentive to research would be to improve your own capita with gradual improvements. IE creating the best product. Since that is pretty much the only improvements happening nowadays, what use is actually patents?

Quote:
Yes. If you drive with due care but have an accident and kill someone you won't go to jail.
Yes, if the other party is to blame, you won't go to jail. With patents however, you seem to accept the fallout of legitimate research being invalidated without any further thought. In traffic atleast, we accidents as wrong.
Quote:
I was just mentioning RAND, which is one way the anticompetitive aspect of patents is mitigated.
Yes, I understand that from your first reply. That some people choose to use to system fairly doesn't change much though. Should we abolish traffic laws just because a majority really doesn't enjoy running down people anyways?

Quote:
I was trying to make a point about the "dog in the manger" and competitiveness. The factories would be useful to Coke but aren't useful to Pepsi, yet Pepsi might not wish to sell the factories to Coke.
But it still wouldn't be illegal for Coke to build new factories now would it? Imagine if it was, what state would the soft-drink industry be in today?
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A patent has to cover something useful, ie. saleable.
No, it most certainly doesn't.

It has be considered innovative, non-trivial and new.
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Your suggested rights wouldn't have any benefits.
Do yours? And do they really outweight the disadvantages?

My point however was, that the there is no principal difference between my suggestions and yours besides that mine were even more unnecessary. As such, there is no magical ethical basis for patents, however there is a pragmatic one, where you believe the advantages trumph the disadvantages.


Quote:
But consider the idea behind the Kyoto protocol of selling rights to pollute. That would be introduced purely on the grounds that (1) people value being able to produce pollutants, and (2) a need to discourage polluting and encourage cleaner technology. (not that I wish to go into the Kyoto protocol)
Yes, another excellent example. The kyoto protocol is just like patents. Just like patents, even though the permissions granted by it may be traded and used as seen fit in the free market, its basis legitimacy has nothing to do with property, rights or any of that bullshit.

It is a volunterily system of self-imposed restrictions, because one believes the advantages outweight the disadvantages.

I believe very strongly that the benifits of patents do not outweigh the disadvantages.
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Unread 31 Jul 2005, 12:18   #47
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Re: open source

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
As such, you cant really compare someone saying 'hey lets deliver pizzas to customers' with a multimillion pound investment over many years geared towards researching a cure for cancer.
Why not? They are both the products of intellectual labour. I see no real distinction - aside from the pragmatic points already raised. The fact that one cost a lot of money and the other didn't is really irrelevent. The only justification for any of these things is practical - which is why you have a time limit. Property rights don't traditionally expire and the fact that IP does is recognition that this is a social contract of trading a little liberty for supposed economic benefits.
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Unread 31 Jul 2005, 12:41   #48
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by queball
When I'm defending a "neo-liberal" position I maintain that rights should be arranged so as to maximise individual liberty (sort of freedom + prosperity as I see it). Patents are not particularly coersive, any more than land rights. They're a recognition of rights like any other, with apparatus to define those rights, just as in land rights. I certainly don't think the government should hold IP. How is this inconsistent?.
I would agree that land rights hold a similar position to IP - i.e. they are recognition of rights which don't really "exist" except but we "agree" to observe for pragmatic reasons.

All a patent / copyright does is mean the state agrees to restrict the liberty of others. In practical terms the enforcement may vary but it seems too fundamentally be similar to a law banning certain types of speech / goods.

Land rights seem to operate in the same sort of sense, but are obviously more ingrained so people don't necessarily "see" them as often - at least where society operates reasonably well. In countries where social justice is perhaps less nuanced these things are a frequent source of violence (see Brazil / Southern Africa where land disputes are a little more heated). I think it was Nod who a while ago was saying that it would be interesting how land law would be viewed when it comes to space - since it'd be a lot more "obvious" that these things are merely human inventions.

In a traditional political arrangement land rights are at least balanced against some sort of notion of duty or something like that. So these bunch of people own all the land but they are at least theoretically looking out for everyone else (obviously that's not what happens, but at least it's there). Neo-liberalism seems to be an attempt (at least partially) to eliminate all notions of aristocratic/bourgeois duty but still keeping the benefits of land. So we let these people own all the land and...well, there's no and - that's it - they don't even want to pay for welfare systems anymore. I doubt such an arrangement would be tolerated for long.
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Unread 31 Jul 2005, 16:04   #49
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Why not? They are both the products of intellectual labour. I see no real distinction - aside from the pragmatic points already raised. The fact that one cost a lot of money and the other didn't is really irrelevent. The only justification for any of these things is practical - which is why you have a time limit. Property rights don't traditionally expire and the fact that IP does is recognition that this is a social contract of trading a little liberty for supposed economic benefits.
Because there was no real intellectual labour involved in coming up with, and implementing, the pizza idea. Its the difference between the first person on the moon building a fence around an area and saying "I declare all this to be mine", and someone building a shop on the moon. Only the second would have a legitimate claim to property rights, since he is the only one who has actually invested productive labour into the land.

The drugs vs pizza example seems like a fairly straightward application of the Lockean 'property rights = resources + productive labour' idea to me, with 'resources' here being slightly metaphorical; I dont know where the pragmatism accusation is coming from.

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Unread 31 Jul 2005, 16:25   #50
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Re: open source

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I would agree that land rights hold a similar position to IP - i.e. they are recognition of rights which don't really "exist" except but we "agree" to observe for pragmatic reasons.
I would say that land rights 'exist' just as much as the right to life, so depending upon what you mean by 'exist', they are all equally real or equally fictional. Rights arent physical entities in the world; they are highly abstract concepts which are used to implement moral positions within a political framework.

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, why isnt the 'right to life' a fictional construct which we only observe for pragmatic reasons - namely that the majority are too weak to fight the strong and hence create a passive 'rights-based' framework to protect themselves, and to allow coexistence within peaceful society? Hasnt this been argued for centuries, from Thrasymachus (in the Republic) down to Nietzsche?

Quote:
All a patent / copyright does is mean the state agrees to restrict the liberty of others. In practical terms the enforcement may vary but it seems too fundamentally be similar to a law banning certain types of speech / goods.
This is begging the question. Your liberty is only being restricted if you believe you have an inherent right to use the intellectual products of others without their permission. Again, you might as well claim that the 'right to life' infringes upon your liberty because you arent allowed to kill people who annoy you.

Last edited by Nodrog; 31 Jul 2005 at 16:32.
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