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Unread 19 May 2009, 08:26   #1
Zaejii
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Remove Galaxies

with PA in the current state that it is in with alliances blocking, napping, etc - and galaxies having their gal mates hit on "no defence" policies, why not just remove galaxies in their current form completely from the game? lump all new players into one mega galaxy, and each other galaxy will be members tagged in alliances. one galaxy for NewDawn, another for xVx, InS, etc. whenever someone is kicked from a tag or leaves on their own, they will be played into the generic gigantic unallied galaxy. whenever someone joins a tag, their planet will be moved to that specific galaxy.

this would mostly get rid of all the spying and backstabbing of galaxies because a member is in an unfriendly alliance, and it will also remove the general shit-ness of fenced galaxies!
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Unread 19 May 2009, 08:47   #2
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Ok.
1) where would new players meet people? Galaxies introduce them to others.
2) this helps larger alliances - who would attack a 90 man galaxy when there's a 50 man galaxy that you can hit? Even if they're broken down into 10-15 man galaxies, you're stuck with them as alliance galaxies and soon (if it's not obvious) the weaker alliances will be picked off. They also lose their galaxy defence - all defence will be alliance defence.

I really disagree
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Unread 19 May 2009, 08:54   #3
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Re: Remove Galaxies

no no the others won't be broken down. you'd have like 2,000 unallied players in one galaxy - hopefully with their own IRC channel - that will allow those new players to meet people, along with the people who choose to tag late or stay out of tag being there to help them.

so in the end, would you rather attack a galaxy of 90 members, or one of 2,000?

edit: oh. i get what you were getting at. right now people are picking off members in their galaxies because they are of alliance X, while refusing to defend them - so its free roids, and the other person is either left with a decision to exile into a worse galaxy, stop growing so they stop getting attacked, or quit. the "red-headed stepchild syndrome" really needs to be addressed imo.
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Unread 19 May 2009, 09:01   #4
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Re: Remove Galaxies

No.

Your post doesnt deserve much more than that, If you want people to consider implementing a game-changing feature (or taking out) then you need to show you've actually sat down and thought about what it means and how you're going to balance it (balance the game both stat/defence/attacking wise and community/fun wise).

If you want people to consider removing galaxys, i'd suggest thinking about what you want and why you want it.. Then explain why this is the only solution and its worth it, which imo takes more than one paragraph.

It seems to me that you've got annoyed by something in your galaxy, so you've decided galaxys are bad due to your own example and think "hey, lets see what deleting them will do".
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Unread 19 May 2009, 09:05   #5
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Re: Remove Galaxies

[quote=Zaejii;3174471]no no the others won't be broken down. you'd have like 2,000 unallied players in one galaxy - hopefully with their own IRC channel - that will allow those new players to meet people, along with the people who choose to tag late or stay out of tag being there to help them.

so in the end, would you rather attack a galaxy of 90 members, or one of 2,000?
[quote]
1. Why would i bother joining an alliance? when me and my alliance could stay unallied and end up in the same '2000' member galaxy with galaxy ETA?

2. How would n00b's go about roiding? if they're all in one galaxy they cant attack each other and can only hit active alliances.

3. Small alliances are now wtfpwned, a 20 person alliance in a 20 person galaxy? they'd just be farms.

4. 2000 people in one galaxy? dont you think thats alittle too much.. would take 30minutes to scroll down the galaxy page.

5. Galaxys and Buddy Packs offer a way for new players to enter the community and be given advice and tips on how to play the game properly. They dont work in every example but its better than nothing.

etc.

Quote:
edit: oh. i get what you were getting at. right now people are picking off members in their galaxies because they are of alliance X, while refusing to defend them - so its free roids, and the other person is either left with a decision to exile into a worse galaxy, stop growing so they stop getting attacked, or quit. the "red-headed stepchild syndrome" really needs to be addressed imo.
Then address that situation, dont just delete all galaxys cuz of one example. Find a solution for that situation and then suggest it, dont just use a bulldozer on everything.
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Unread 19 May 2009, 09:13   #6
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Re: Remove Galaxies

bulldozers are more fun! <3

but yeah, something should be done to stop all this galaxy/alliance interaction. its one thing to have 10 alliances hit 1 because they're upset or whatever, and another to just serve up 1 person in a galaxy to whoever they want as a farm because they know they won't get defence from alliance and everyone in galaxy will refuse to defend them.
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Unread 19 May 2009, 09:27   #7
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Re: Remove Galaxies

No offence but when I read this I thought:

Yet another suggestion on how to change the game to counter any anti-ascendancy tactics.

The game needs to be changed for the better, not for the better for YOU. They are probably mutually exclusive events, as much as I like you Zaejii.
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Unread 19 May 2009, 10:18   #8
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Re: Remove Galaxies

it really isn't mutually exclusive, and definitely doesn't affect ME at this current time, though it does affect one of my galaxy friends. some people offer up noobs in their galaxy that they plan to exile, and others offer up oddball alliance members up that they won't exile. both cases are different, but are the same. a galaxy is a place where people are put into a situation where they should work together - not stab each other in the back, laugh in their face, and spit on them. gone is the pride in actually earning a top 5 galaxy spot instead of being fenced with little or no hostiles all round.
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Unread 19 May 2009, 13:26   #9
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Re: Remove Galaxies

I'd rather remove alliances than galaxies tbh
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Unread 19 May 2009, 13:53   #10
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Re: Remove Galaxies

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I'd rather remove alliances than galaxies tbh
good job its left to other people then :P
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Unread 19 May 2009, 14:51   #11
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Re: Remove Galaxies

so you say there is no pride in fence sitting to a top 5 galaxy, but you also don't want members to allow their alliances to hit their galaxies, in particular members of hostile alliances. Isn't that fence sitting?

I personally adhere to the rules of the war, in that i don't defend against friendly alliances when they are hitting hostile alliances. although i wouldn't defend hostile alliances, i also wouldn't hand out galaxy status (or any real intel) to friendly alliances, as i feel that is something they can discover themselves. I do not, however, condone the setting up of 'n00bs' in the galaxy to be farmed. that is something that the MHs can police, i would imagine, and is not something that should be solved by this suggestion.

End of the day, if you don't want to play in an alliance, don't join one. if you don't want to adhere to the rules the alliance has set in place for times of war (not defending your enemies, not defending against friendly alliances), don't join an alliance. I feel this is simply your response to a situation in your galaxy Zaejii and has not truly been thought out.

As mentioned above, get rid of alliances if anything, not galaxies...
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Unread 19 May 2009, 15:29   #12
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Re: Remove Galaxies

There are still galaxies that work well together. However the current alliance situation is indeed splitting up a few of em aswell...

I think that trying to run some private gals again would be interesting. Some alliances are already building more or less private gals already through the exile system.
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Unread 19 May 2009, 15:31   #13
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Re: Remove Galaxies

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Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy View Post
good job its left to other people then :P
I'm not pro removing alliances either :P
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Unread 19 May 2009, 16:20   #14
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Re: Remove Galaxies

smaller gals, with them being private, maybe even a system like in r6(?) where u can either choice to open up for a couple of randoms, or keep it fully private.
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Unread 19 May 2009, 16:36   #15
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Random gals have following problems:
- You cannot trust your own galaxy completely.
- You have people that are not willing to help the new guys -> which will thread them badly and make them feel unwanted. Ofc there is the other half too.
- You can get inactive galaxies.
- People can too easily jump over from galaxy to other, leaving the original to suffer. And to create galaxies with far more support than the original budypack.
- You have fenced galaxies which makes it hard to bring down people from top.
- You have little choises to support your galaxy, if u are actively defending and attacking with your alliance.
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Unread 19 May 2009, 17:36   #16
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Re: Remove Galaxies

The basic idea of removing galaxies is, in my opinion, the best solution available to solve a lot of currently existing issues.

However, there are indeed quite a few things that must be adapted then, including sign up procedure (i.e. placement of people), travel times, and the already mentioned "how do people get in touch with other" thingie.

A good solution used in many other games in this case is to use a sphere's surface as layout of the universe. The next thing is to divide this sphere into 4 sign up zones (f.e. north-east, north-west, south-east and south-west). That way people can choose where they want to be placed when they sign up and thus give people which want to play together a chance to land near each other. Regarding travel time you'd define a minimum ETA and a set of "timezones". So, when traveling inside a timezone you'd always travel the minimum eta (like nowadays galaxy eta), while when traveling across timezones it'd be minimum ETA + timezones. Alternately a timezone may also be the absolute distance between two planets divided by a given quotient.
The universe that gets created this way makes it also a lot easier to have random events happening at some places somewhere, which are now hard to implement because they'd have to fit inside a specific galaxy. For example bot planets could be spread out across the universe so that it is only obvious to people in a certain zone that there are bot planets, or pirates could show up at some location blocking a trade route, and so on.

I know the remaining question is "how to make new people cooperate", but then again that's obviously an issue by now already. By introducing timezones on a sphere we'd at least help that by making the amount of potential communication partners a lot bigger than it is now.
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Unread 19 May 2009, 18:28   #17
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Re: Remove Galaxies

heartless, we've discussed it and i'm still not convinced, even if you give alliances galaxy status. New players won't be supported by many unless they can be abused or otherwise helpful for the helper's planet, sadly.
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Unread 19 May 2009, 18:41   #18
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Re: Remove Galaxies

The fact that new players need to be supported in order to survive (let alone do ok) is a bad sign.
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Unread 19 May 2009, 18:44   #19
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Re: Remove Galaxies

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
heartless, we've discussed it and i'm still not convinced, even if you give alliances galaxy status. New players won't be supported by many unless they can be abused or otherwise helpful for the helper's planet, sadly.
As you might have noticed, I stated that this is still an issue - however, the issue is existing already. What you fail to realize is that over the course of the past few rounds alliances started to do planet targeting inside galaxies which contain alliance members (because there are only so few galaxies left). Which means that keeping the artificial galaxy and alliance limit is just putting a constraint on how people can cooperate. So, the game currently is not just not rewarding cooperation (defense does not make you grow, attacks come at reduced roid cap thus not necessarily utilizing your growth potential), but also punishing the only remaining incentives to cooperate (loyalty issue between galaxy / alliance, defense not rewarding the defender enough).

And you still have not come up with different plans either, despite our discussions. A new IRC client, as I did already point out, is a nice asset for communicating ingame, but it is certainly nothing that magically makes new players cooperate.
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Unread 19 May 2009, 19:04   #20
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Simply support existing trainee alliances in a way or another.

I dont think Asc and xVx minds if someone like ASS (for example) gets few easy members due public favour to join there.
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Unread 19 May 2009, 21:58   #21
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ave View Post
Simply support existing trainee alliances in a way or another.

I dont think Asc and xVx minds if someone like ASS (for example) gets few easy members due public favour to join there.
I feel obligated to point out that it wasnt long ago that xVx was considered one of those "training" alliances.

But yeah, I agree
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Unread 19 May 2009, 22:57   #22
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
As you might have noticed, I stated that this is still an issue - however, the issue is existing already. What you fail to realize is that over the course of the past few rounds alliances started to do planet targeting inside galaxies which contain alliance members (because there are only so few galaxies left). Which means that keeping the artificial galaxy and alliance limit is just putting a constraint on how people can cooperate. So, the game currently is not just not rewarding cooperation (defense does not make you grow, attacks come at reduced roid cap thus not necessarily utilizing your growth potential), but also punishing the only remaining incentives to cooperate (loyalty issue between galaxy / alliance, defense not rewarding the defender enough).

And you still have not come up with different plans either, despite our discussions. A new IRC client, as I did already point out, is a nice asset for communicating ingame, but it is certainly nothing that magically makes new players cooperate.
you have good ideas up there, but mostly i'm glad that someone else actually admits to getting the point.
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Unread 21 May 2009, 02:50   #23
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Re: Remove Galaxies

One of the current complaints of the game seems to be alliances sending huge amounts of waves towards galaxies just to overwhelm them. I'd say nobody particularly enjoys seeing this on a regular basis, especially with recent rounds having fewer players in fewer galaxies to choose from.

So for this one I'm going to say... why not give this idea a chance?

If there are no galaxies then there are no galaxy raids, simple as that. Spineless alliances would have to alter their tactics, instead of picking the most juicy galaxy they might end up going for other alliances more often, along with the highest ranking planets to get them down a bit for the good of their own alliances planets.

Turn the universe into a torus, spread players as evenly as possible throughout - don't put an alliance in one place.

Figure something else out for new players, because to be honest the existing situation isn't exactly great. Many galaxies will be quick to exile if a planet doesn't justify their spot, deadend galaxies are pointless and the new players end up becoming part of a farm. Vastly improve the alliance recruitment so new alliances can form more easily and existing alliances can recruit without players having to go to another site (the forums) to see who is recruiting.

Look at the current situation, if you don't have an alliance you aren't going to do that well anyway. Galaxies aren't a substitute for alliances for new players. It might remove a lot of stress factors (Ave's post explains some of them).
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 19:15   #24
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Their was a time when PA was all about you and your galaxy...

I do think this is a problem, sadly i dont have any good ideas on this matter but its clear we must find a way to encourage galaxies to be a small "alliance" on itself.
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 21:00   #25
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Re: Remove Galaxies

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Originally Posted by Justafox View Post
Their was a time when PA was all about you and your galaxy...

I do think this is a problem, sadly i dont have any good ideas on this matter but its clear we must find a way to encourage galaxies to be a small "alliance" on itself.
if you're sticking with gals, couldn't you increase xp for deffing other gal mates or (this is slightly off topic) have a system where the gal funds can be used to buy turrets for galactic defence, i think gal funds need to be taken more advantage of to help in defence. or like an alliance have a point scheme, but make it so people who get hurt most in a gal/def others most get specific amount of bonus fund that is seperate from the main gal fund which takes 5%< of the attacking persons salvage and deals it out to those people
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 03:22   #26
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Re: Remove Galaxies

My suggestion would be quite opposite:
- At tick start each registered alliance get 1 cluster (10 galaxies of 8)
member limit is 80 obviously.
- At shuffle clusters (alliances) with less than 4 full gals are mixed together with a max of 3 alliances per cluster. HC has the option to tick a "do not shuffle" box.
- Players starting with no alliance are placed in a separate cluster, they'll be auto exiled to the alliance cluster when they are accepted by an alliance (alliance pay from it's fund).
- Cluster -1 eta is dropped. Alliances in same cluster have the possibility to merge until tick 600.
- No more exile. Only way to get out of cluster is by being kicked from alliance.
- BP of 3 available inside ally
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 04:56   #27
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Re: Remove Galaxies

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
My suggestion would be quite opposite:
- At tick start each registered alliance get 1 cluster (10 galaxies of 8)
member limit is 80 obviously.
- At shuffle clusters (alliances) with less than 4 full gals are mixed together with a max of 3 alliances per cluster. HC has the option to tick a "do not shuffle" box.
- Players starting with no alliance are placed in a separate cluster, they'll be auto exiled to the alliance cluster when they are accepted by an alliance (alliance pay from it's fund).
- Cluster -1 eta is dropped. Alliances in same cluster have the possibility to merge until tick 600.
- No more exile. Only way to get out of cluster is by being kicked from alliance.
- BP of 3 available inside ally
In short: your suggestion sucks.

It's not well presented - no reasons why this benefits new players - and you are limiting people's options of cooperation.
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 05:09   #28
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Cooperation ? you call the current mess cooperation ? you can't def x coz he's napped with y which is at war with z whose your allied with ? How is that a benefit for new players ?
Making things clear and simple for new players is in itself an improvement. Cooperation within your gal is no longer submitted to muddy politics. They are playing in a friendly environment.
New players without alliances, placed in an unlimited cluster with eta bonus can expect greater support if they manage to create a bond. They can be identified/contacted/recruited easily if they look active.

Attacks within the non ally cluster would be standard but we can imagine a system where Ally clusters attacking the non ally cluster would suffer a penalty, either in eta or roid capping...
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Unread 13 Jun 2009, 15:02   #29
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Re: Remove Galaxies

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Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
Cooperation ? you call the current mess cooperation ? you can't def x coz he's napped with y which is at war with z whose your allied with ? How is that a benefit for new players ?
Making things clear and simple for new players is in itself an improvement. Cooperation within your gal is no longer submitted to muddy politics. They are playing in a friendly environment.
New players without alliances, placed in an unlimited cluster with eta bonus can expect greater support if they manage to create a bond. They can be identified/contacted/recruited easily if they look active.

Attacks within the non ally cluster would be standard but we can imagine a system where Ally clusters attacking the non ally cluster would suffer a penalty, either in eta or roid capping...
Second fail. Read my post again, try for a third time.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 00:06   #30
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Make galaxies smaller. Cap exiles at a number as low as say, 5 (or perhaps limit it by x time to the next exile) so people can try and find a galaxy but will probably fail. Reintroduce proper clusters with proper advantages of -2 for defence and -1 for attack. Have more galaxies in a cluster Make working with your galaxy mates and cluster mates relevant.

Proper clusters would encourage people to meet people within their galaxy and beyond it, get a reputation for themselves and establish relationships with alliances.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 00:28   #31
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Re: Remove Galaxies

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Proper clusters would encourage people to meet people within their galaxy and beyond it, get a reputation for themselves and establish relationships with alliances.

what do you mean by proper clusters ?
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 00:37   #32
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Re: Remove Galaxies

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Originally Posted by Mistwraith View Post
what do you mean by proper clusters ?
Ones where combat within them is beneficial. And that politics within them matter. You do this by giving favourable ETAs and giving people enough targets (i.e. galaxies) within that cluster.

If you can run a cluster properly, you can effectively create a safe haven for yourself against dominant alliances, or even batter their planets where they are a minority. Or create a stronghold if you're good enough.

More options in gameplay, never a bad thing.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 00:51   #33
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Absolutely, positively, 110% agree with everything Lokken said in his last two posts.

Appoco, read them please
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 03:53   #34
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Re: Remove Galaxies

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Second fail. Read my post again, try for a third time.
Your post ? I thought we were tallkng about mine
sorry I hadn't notice yours, leave me a week or two to understand it ok ?
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 09:26   #35
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Make galaxies smaller.
I agree, but there are only 2 ways to do that:
1. Reduce the size of buddypacks
2. Change the way galaxies are created (e.g. also create galaxies around buddypacks of 2 or 3 instead of putting those together).
It's a good idea, but implementing it has its downsides.

Perhaps you can create a (optional?) feature where people who exile always exile into a galaxy with people from their own alliance. This will reduce the fence-sitting a bit.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 09:45   #36
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Re: Remove Galaxies

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I agree, but there are only 2 ways to do that:
1. Reduce the size of buddypacks
2. Change the way galaxies are created (e.g. also create galaxies around buddypacks of 2 or 3 instead of putting those together).
It's a good idea, but implementing it has its downsides.

Perhaps you can create a (optional?) feature where people who exile always exile into a galaxy with people from their own alliance. This will reduce the fence-sitting a bit.
Maybe, maybe not.

I see nothing wrong with a galaxy being made up of a buddypack of say 5 people, and that's half the galaxy. Or two buddypacks of three people. Or maybe just go back to random allocation. I don't see why many established players need to sit here and whine about how galaxies will be shit when they've got alliances to support them anyway. Maybe they'll find some new people in their galaxies and clusters and have to build new relationships. With new players. Which hey, when we need more players isn't a bad thing.

A strong cluster alliance will go some way to keeping you protected from alliances. Particularly when many of you are worried about Ascendancy dominating the universe.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 09:46   #37
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Re: Remove Galaxies

While we are at it. Change the galaxy "lookout" as following:

Each cluster is listed in a drop down box ie:
Cluster 1
Cluster 2
Cluster 3
Cluster 4....

Choosing one of the clusters shows again the following info:
Cluster 1
1:1 Admin tools covers the flaws in game play Roids 2.000 Score 1.000.000 Players 5
1:2 [ASS] Puss is making a dinner Roids: 4.000 Score: 2.000.000 Players 13
1:3 [Ascendancy] Cardinal the undercover agent Roids: 3.000 Score: 1.500.000 Players 10
1:4 [xVx] SantaCruz of SEX Roids: 1.000 Score: 2.000.000 Players 13
1:5 [xVx] Light my fire Roids: 3.000 Score: 3.000.000 Players 12
each of them beeing linked to show the galaxy overview in its curent form.

We can give even the average score but that aint nessesary. This is far more pleasant way to check thrue galaxies than an arrow to go thrue every planet. You can make a fast view for galaxies while looking proper sized targets, you can see your own cluster and see who are the treaths in there, you can see who rules your cluster and most importantly this does improve the way to look thrue the universe.

And dont tell me to use sandmans, since it is a tool out of game. You need to be able to see thrue clusters easily without the need for outer tools.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 12:52   #38
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Re: Remove Galaxies

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Originally Posted by Ave View Post
And dont tell me to use sandmans, since it is a tool out of game. You need to be able to see thrue clusters easily without the need for outer tools.
Imo just incorporate decent search functions into the game. It's not rocket science to make and it's much better to have it imbedded into the game.
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Unread 14 Jun 2009, 16:08   #39
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Re: Remove Galaxies

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Originally Posted by Gerbie2 View Post
Imo just incorporate decent search functions into the game. It's not rocket science to make and it's much better to have it imbedded into the game.
Even if you do that, still the overview of galaxies and clusters should be changed.
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Unread 15 Jun 2009, 13:06   #40
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Re: Remove Galaxies

-1 ETA on attack within clusters would just lead to the (re)creation of farm galaxies (Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here).
-2 ETA on defence within clusters would lead to even more abuse of the exile function.

Apart from that, I agree with Lokken's ideas.
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Unread 14 Jul 2009, 13:21   #41
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Re: Remove Galaxies

As pointed out by GReaper, this belongs here: http://pastebin.ca/1587944
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Unread 14 Jul 2009, 16:45   #42
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Surely you come sum up your suggestion in less than 990 lines..
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Unread 14 Jul 2009, 17:03   #43
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Whilst I sort of support/like the idea behind it, I think we'd need to come up with more reasons as to why it's a good idea. The change is going to solve some problems - but just remember it's going to create another bunch of problems, how are these going to be dealt with?

How do you deal with new planets in such a universe? As Appoco pointed out, is a new planet going to just mail people nearby randomly to try and get defence?

I'm not entirely sure if shoving the existing Planetarion system into a sphere (or torus - something I prefer) is actually going to improve things by a significant amount to justify all the time spent changing the game. To me it seems like you'd have to expand the game even further, maybe with multiple planets, territorial control, being able to move around the universe instead of being stuck down etc.

Overall the ideas are interesting, but none of them seem to be "wow - this is right for Planetarion".
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Unread 14 Jul 2009, 19:12   #44
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
Surely you come sum up your suggestion in less than 990 lines..
Yes.

Basically, what Heartless and me want is to get rid of the idea of galaxies altogether, as per this topic, because
(1) having two instances of cooperation (galaxy and alliance) that cause conflicts between them is a Bad Idea.
(2) It's a limit on cooperation (10-14 people, no more, rarely less). It would be better if there were no such thing; cooperation, after all, is PA's life blood.
(3) When there are limitations on and rankings for galaxy cooperation, it pays off for veterans to exile newbies and generally badly performing planets (like scanners, cov oppers, inactives, etc), pushing them out of the "real" game.

The second and third issues are solved by any change that removes galaxies. The first, only when alliances can share a territory. These simple statement contains the seed of the sphere universe; without geography, there is no territory. In our opinion, the best way to approach this is to convert the universe into one giant sphere, instead of x clusters with y galaxies in each, with z planets in each. Planets could be located either on the outer shell alone (2D), or anywhere inside of the sphere (3D).

Furthermore, it requires that the distribution of alliance planets is not (entirely) random. Of course, giving people total control over where they end up is not a good idea, because of reason 3 (see above). If every alliance player chooses to be in the vicinity of their own alliance only, all the newbies will end up in no mans land. So a balance should be sought in which alliance players can be near each other, but not so much so that the newbies are shut out.

In our opinion, this is best achieved by dividing the universe into 4 signup zones. When new players sign up, they can choose to either go random, or to be put in a certain zone. Alliances can therefore gather most or all of their planets in a certain quadrant, without total assurance that they will all be clumped together.

If a lot of planets choose the same quadrant, the size of the quadrant will simply increase accordingly. In this context, the term 'quadrant' does not mean '25% of the universe', but 'one of four pieces'. That said, you could (for example) prevent planets from signing up to the biggest quadrant, but I'm not sure if that's a good idea.

With the removal of galaxies, we also remove one layer of complexity from the game, namely galaxy control. We replace this with another layer, namely local domination. This leads us to the next point on the agenda: fleet ETA. If we look at the current situation, there is no difference in ETA between going from 1:1:1 to 1:2:1 and from 1:1:1 to 9:9:9. In a universe with geography, this makes no sense, not without resorting to exotic theories about warp gates, collapsars or hyper drives.

Instead, what we want to use is the euclidian distance between two planets; the further two planets are away from each other, the longer it takes to get there. This has a number of effects, primarily:
(1) Roiding faraway planets is hard, because there's a lot of time for the target (or their alliance) to organise defence, protecting "bad" alliances from a large part of the universe
(2) Roiding faraway planets is not cost effective, because it takes forever to get there, protecting newbies from a large part of the universe.

A note before I continue. In the current setup, coordinates like x:y:z stand for cluster:galaxy:planet. In a universe with geography, x:y:z simply stand for distance from origin on the x, y and z axis.

An added bonus is that when two alliances (inevitably) pick the same quadrant, they will first have to make sure they take control of their local surroundings (either by making peace or going to war), before taking on the rest of the universe. This creates the opportunity for local leaders to arise, because the further away alliances try to wage war, the less effective they'll become. An alliance like Orbit could very well be able to resist an alliance like Ascendancy, if all their incomings were eta15 or more. Of course, you want to continue to make sure people can't get bashed in their sleep, so a certain minimum should be kept (7-8 ticks should do).

One of the issues we haven't resolved yet is local newbie farming. The planet at 9:9:9 will not get incomings from a planet at 1:1:1, but the planet at 1:1:2 might. it's nearby, newbies don't generally get defence, and not rarely they init to stupidly high levels. This issue is largely solved by introducing a proper value based capping formula, not the piece of shit compromise we have now.

One of the few advantages of galaxies is that you can click "Galaxy" and see a small number of people that you're supposed to cooperate with. It clearly doesn't happen too often that a newbie actually does (or we would not have lost 2000 non-alliance players over the last 15 rounds), but the fact that galaxies are pre-defined is surely one of the few things that helps people get into the community.

On the other hand, the initiative is all too often placed with the newbie, there are few advantages for veterans to interact with newbies. This would be different if it's not just the 10-14 players in your galaxy that can defend you, but the x players that live less than 8 hours away from your planet. Furthermore, with the removal of galaxies, there is no longer a zone around your planet which only contains planets that can't attack you. This encourages making peace with them, because it'd suck if they decide to hit you just as your alliance runs out of defence fleets. It's the same mechanism as with low ETA in-cluster attacks: the threat of unfavorable combat encourages people to make peace.



Finally, a disclaimer. Though this may seem like a completely fleshed out suggestion, it's far from. There are many elements that so far seem optional (for example, introduction of a resource market, ability to move planets around the universe, allowing multiing) and many elements that so far seem set in stone but might, on closer examination, not be that beneficial after all.

(990 -> 108)
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 14 Jul 2009 at 19:29.
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Unread 15 Jul 2009, 01:25   #45
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Re: Remove Galaxies

The major flaw i see is with the travel system. By making it harder to attack far away planets you restrict the number of targets. In a sector already occupied by alliance mates, there will be few targets available, and people will end up hitting always the same bunch.
I find it a real problem in a 1k player universe, with an average of 250 planets per quadrant and potentialy a 100 member base alliance dominating a quadrant ( i wouldn't like to end up in that one)

Travel research should be used to allow far way travel at the same eta as closer ones. Example: travel1 for quadrant1 eta bonus, Travel2 for quadrant2, etc...

An eta5 should be kept to the 8 adjacent planets.

In that new system, I think each player should not control a planet but a solar system. At first it would just be a change of name, but later it can open up more features (exploration branch in the tech tree to visit other planets and get bonuses from their exploitation).
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Unread 15 Jul 2009, 02:02   #46
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
Travel research should be used to allow far way travel at the same eta as closer ones. Example: travel1 for quadrant1 eta bonus, Travel2 for quadrant2, etc...
"Clusters"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
An eta5 should be kept to the 8 adjacent planets.
"Galaxies"

You're just renaming some features of the current game that already exist. That's not changing the game, that's rebranding it.
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Unread 15 Jul 2009, 02:47   #47
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
"Clusters"
not at all. I don't see how researches allowing travel into another quadrant can be assimilated to the current clusters...

I think renaming some features into something coherent is not a luxury:

- The universe is a galaxy (200 billion stars for a galaxy like ours)
- The 4 Quadrants of that galaxy are sectors (plz find cool names for each quadrant)
- Players control a solar system

Now that makes sense.

The travel system as you propose it is a game killer in PA's current state (it would work with tens of thousands of players). It is important that players can reach any target in the same amount of time, otherwise we'll be creating 4 PA rounds in a single one.
My idea of keeping some eta5 was purely to allow last ditch defense, but if it can be achieved any other way (overburn ?), why not.
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Unread 15 Jul 2009, 10:07   #48
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
The major flaw i see is with the travel system. By making it harder to attack far away planets you restrict the number of targets. In a sector already occupied by alliance mates, there will be few targets available, and people will end up hitting always the same bunch.
*snip*
Snipping the rest of the post because mz pointed out why it's not going to work out (it's just rebranding the same piece of shit all over).

Anyway, on to the part I quoted. One major thought behind this is to force alliances into decisions, because decisions are what makes the game itself interesting. For example it might be more profitable to hit someone far away, leaving your alliance more vulnerable to attacks - but hey, no risk no fun.
Additionally, this might cause fraction within too big alliances, probably leading to people reorganizing as new alliances, taking on some of the newbies in their local area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper View Post
The change is going to solve some problems - but just remember it's going to create another bunch of problems, how are these going to be dealt with?
That is why we are opening up the discussion about this. Point out flaws so we can consider them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper View Post
How do you deal with new planets in such a universe? As Appoco pointed out, is a new planet going to just mail people nearby randomly to try and get defence?
Almost the same way as PA does today: People have to be pro-active with regards to 'socializing'. The difference being, that we increase the chances for pro-active people to actually connect with others that want to socialize (because we are removing the artificial limit on the cooperation market). The form of communication is a question of what is offered ingame. If it is still 'only' a mailing system and IRC then just exactly using those two things to try to get in touch with other people (while there are no more galaxies, just create 4 huge IRC channels for the quadrants).
It is important to realize that there is no silver bullet that magically makes people cooperate, you just have to give people the opportunities for getting and staying in touch with each other.
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Unread 15 Jul 2009, 11:14   #49
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Re: Remove Galaxies

On the subject of 'small universe -> few targets', that's simply a matter of making sure the sphere has a certain density, rather than a certain size. If there are few planets, the universe will be smaller and travel times from one side to the other will be lower than if there are a lot of planets.
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Unread 15 Jul 2009, 15:56   #50
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Re: Remove Galaxies

Does anyone not remember what happened when there was an ETA bonus for attacking in cluster? The "unlucky" planets in each cluster became farms for the rest.

Exactly the same thing will happen in your proposed new system. All non-allied players will be farmed mercilessly for "quick, easy roids".

The only long-distance attacks will be during real wars - and these will become even rarer than they are today because the long-distance attacks will be less profitable than local farming.

The danger that I fear the most from these proposals is that the "race" for #1 (be that alliance or individual) will be won by those who can out-roid (or out-farm) everyone else.

There are other dangers, of course. Some have been touched on by previous posters. First amongst these is the danger that new players will have even less (positive) interaction with other players. With the present system there is a galaxy which can only benefit by encouraging the player to join in and be active (as long as they don't exile first and ask questions later). The new system will allow new players to be seen as "food" by everyone in their local area.

Just my two penn'orth - for what it's worth.
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