New MH team / head of MH team?

[Plaguuu]

No need for discussing various matters in here. Just a simple Yes/No


----


Yes

[ManiacMagic]

as in someone who might actually do MH instead of just looking for insulting names?
yes

[Mzyxptlk]

When is there ever not a need for discussing anything? This is dumb.

[TheoDD]

After how i feel treated today... Clear YES

[BloodyButcher]

We will see what they come up with today, if the MHs chose to close crowke, and have all the attackers gain nothing but tired head after a sleepless night, something has to be done to the rules or to the MH team.

[CBA]

mz play by the rules of the thread author.


yes

[Hunterrrr]

I vote cardi for mh.

[Zotnam]

I'd do it, but only to make up reasons to close most of you.

[Merlin]

Yes

[Merlin]

Here's my nag and the reason I'll probably now quit PA after 12 years and 49 rounds. I buy 3 credits every round. Nitemare and I play in the same alliance and we BP together. We give away one credit to help the game stay alive.
Then we come to the ultimate stupidity.
We are forced to get an exception because we have the same IP address.
NOW you don't have a choice, you don't get an exception you can't play and you get closed.
So you get an exception, but that means your planets are gimped.
You can't interact or you get warned and closed for playing the bloody game.
This means you can't attack together, which you can do with every other alliance member, you also can't defend together which any player even a FREE account can do. You cant defend an alliance mate on the same tick or the same shit comes down on you.
This never used to be a problem, we played for many happy years under an exception and never got hassled at all till this last round.
Kargool decided to spend the round harassing us, and then Ace who should be removed from MH followed up on the same assinine policy and harassed us some more. We got closed for the xmas round if you can believe it.
If I steal my neighbors wifi and play I'm fine. If I vpn into another IP address I am ok too. But if I play by the rules I am screwed. We've played for 12 years they know us. And yet they screw us over.
Its time MH was disbanded. Long over due in fact.
Ace is past his expiry date and thats no lie as most players will attest.

[Monroe]

As a general rule in life: When the bad guys get away with murder and the honest guys get screwed for doing what is right the system is broken beyond repair and should be abandoned. I leave it to those who read Merlin's post to judge if this rule applies to the MH team.

[Nightwolf]

Amen Merlin. Just another showcase of MH retardedness.

It's funny how no admin ever responds to this. Asif we are unjustifiably complaining.

[Merlin]

Well it seems that PA crew is willing to fix this for next round. My heartfelt thanks to Monroe and Cin for taking this up. I know a few couples adversely affected by these rules that will be very happy. Doesn't get us reopened for the Xmas round but its something for sure.

[Bazza[RB]]

Excellent post Merlin

[Kaiba]

Merlin what are Monroe and cin doing?? I go to see my gf 1-2 times a round and have to either get an exception which means we can't play together (which is the primary reason I still play) or I have to do it all on 3G on my phone when I'm there, in an area where 3G is hit and miss. I haven't played as long as you guys but most ppl know we are different people and not cheating, we just want to play as team mates

[Merlin]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

Merlin what are Monroe and cin doing?? I go to see my gf 1-2 times a round and have to either get an exception which means we can't play together (which is the primary reason I still play) or I have to do it all on 3G on my phone when I'm there, in an area where 3G is hit and miss. I haven't played as long as you guys but most ppl know we are different people and not cheating, we just want to play as team mates

They hope to remove the non interaction part of the exception. Since getting an exception penalizes legitimate players trying to do the right thing by getting an exception. I would think you will still need an exception but you won't be forced to play a gimped up set of planets.

MH doesn't have the tools to catch people using VPN or SSH and we get the fall out by trying to play fair. However as you and many of us well know its anything but fair.

Classic example we were harassed all last round with an exception. And we thought we might be left alone for a 2 week winter round....BUT NO!!

We got closed. I can tell you if they don't make this rule change we won't be playing anymore.

We can only hope some PA crew put a tiny bit of sanity back into the exception rules.

[guzlic]

no

mh my good friends

[Merlin]

Originally Posted by guzlic

no

mh my good friends

lol because they haven't closed you yet!

[Assassin]

I did re apply to the MH team through Ace quite a few rounds back now never did hear how my application went.

Id happily rejoin the MH Team which i have offered/tried to do. Doubt many people would want that however due too so many speaking before hand claiming i was 'biased' when MH manager over the support planet rule which i had to invent etc. However, i was NEVER afraid to close a top planet if they were cheating no matter who they were.

[Assassin]

This isnt difficult. We go back to the old days off manual exceptions where the MHs can therefore give out an exception under notes etc and just keep an eye on the planets to make sure there not abusing there privlages. Remove the hard coded exceptions that way people can still play within the game tags/allies.

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Assassin

This isnt difficult. We go back to the old days off manual exceptions where the MHs can therefore give out an exception under notes etc and just keep an eye on the planets to make sure there not abusing there privlages. Remove the hard coded exceptions that way people can still play within the game tags/allies.

There is no hard coded system for exceptions, only a set of rules to be followed. Feel free to read them on the exception rules page in the manual.

[TheoDD]

Originally Posted by Kargool

There is no hard coded system for exceptions, only a set of rules to be followed. Feel free to read them on the exception rules page in the manual.

referring to rules page that even MH dont follow?

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by TheoDD

referring to rules page that even MH dont follow?

Are you suggesting that the multihunters are cheating?

[TheoDD]

Originally Posted by Kargool

Are you suggesting that the multihunters are cheating?

more like stating that you guys make up rules as it suits you, with no reasoning or logic behind it. This is not personal against you kargool.

[Assassin]

Originally Posted by Kargool

There is no hard coded system for exceptions, only a set of rules to be followed. Feel free to read them on the exception rules page in the manual.

Im fully aware of what the rules are kargool. However, obviously before you became a MH exceptions were coded into the game so it enforced the rules automatically. Presume this has now ceased

[Kaiba]

I think kargool that a main point of the problem was something discussed about 10 months ago?, that according to the rules the pa team (and by extension the MH team) can change the rules as they wish to suit a situation. This along with MANY weird/dictator style decisions from your team over the rounds leads to distrust from the player base.

If as is said that you don't have the tools to do the job of hunting multis effectively and cannot acquire these tools then really your team is redundant in this endeavour.

I have no issue with you being a team that polices other abuses within the game (offensiveness, racism for example) but if you are unable to hunt multis then that part of your job should be removed.

People will cheat at this game. People will get away with it too. I don't believe the mh team is biased in any way tho maybe the close knit nature of the game reflects in the severity of some punishments and the accuseds ability to defend themselves sometimes (Ace you need to get some people skills seriously!!)

There is really no solution to all this tho. Stay as is and the problem continues. Allow people 2-3 planets each and still some will have 6-9!!

We as a community using the vast knowledge of the player base through there diverse careers and so on need to instead create tools to help mh team if possible... That is where the solution lies I feel

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

I think kargool that a main point of the problem was something discussed about 10 months ago?, that according to the rules the pa team (and by extension the MH team) can change the rules as they wish to suit a situation. This along with MANY weird/dictator style decisions from your team over the rounds leads to distrust from the player base.

If as is said that you don't have the tools to do the job of hunting multis effectively and cannot acquire these tools then really your team is redundant in this endeavour.

I have no issue with you being a team that polices other abuses within the game (offensiveness, racism for example) but if you are unable to hunt multis then that part of your job should be removed.

People will cheat at this game. People will get away with it too. I don't believe the mh team is biased in any way tho maybe the close knit nature of the game reflects in the severity of some punishments and the accuseds ability to defend themselves sometimes (Ace you need to get some people skills seriously!!)

There is really no solution to all this tho. Stay as is and the problem continues. Allow people 2-3 planets each and still some will have 6-9!!

We as a community using the vast knowledge of the player base through there diverse careers and so on need to instead create tools to help mh team if possible... That is where the solution lies I feel

This entire post is my views and my views only and is not an offical Multihunter statement

First of all, I want to emphasize something that makes a lot of misunderstandings happen when it comes to multihunting. There are people who cheat in this game, there has been and always will be. The multihunters job is varied, not only catch cheaters, but also make sure that other parts of the game are marshalled.

My experience from the time I have had as a multihunter is that pretty much every decision you have to make will always piss off someone. Without going into specific cases, I had one example one round where a person playing the game thanked us for making a tough decision regarding a rule one day, only for him to come in the next day and slate us for something on a completely different matter.

Whats right and wrong in this game from a players viewpoint tends to be whatever a few people and their cronies seem to think in a situation, and really isnt founded by an understanding of the rules, more an understanding of what they think the rules are.

I can understand this, because as a HC, I mostly wanted decisions from the PA team that gained my type of play, and gaining my view on how PA should be played.

As a multihunter I am pretty much bound to the rules of the game, not one type of play, and in my opinion thats exactly how I should be. I cant make decisions based on heart, but have to make it based upon the rules at hand.

But as a well known subsection of the rules say: we as multihunters do have some leeway to decide when a situation arises that is untold of, or completely new. We then have a process where we discuss inside the team, and also with people involved in the incident, trying to understand what has happend, and then make a ruling that we try to make "offical" in that type of situation.

It is a really really difficult job to do, with sometimes us having to make timesensitive decisions because fleets landing etc.

I personally wish I could catch everyone that cheats in this game, and while we do have options, and choices and opportunities to close some cheaters, the burden of proof weighs heavy on our shoulders.

Do the community wish that the MH's needed to have less proof to close a cheater? Or does the community think that the proofs have to be crystal clear?

Me personally as multihunter know and do not want to feel threatned or forced by the community to make a decision. The rules of the game needs to be clear. Unfortunally, sometimes we come into situations where our decisions have to be made up due to gamechanges. Like with the ship salvage debacle. Or with other new "tactics" that people invent to either make the game more fun for themselves, often at the cost of others having a much less favourable gaming experience, which I personally think its sad.

You as a community have to understand that sometimes there are situations that are completely new to us, and that we have to process and digest and see a few situations before we can be 100% confident that we are making the right choice.

I have personally apologised to one person in this game due to a situation like that, and this person later thanked me for explaining my decsion to him,(since the case involved him) although maybe not agreeing with my decision.

I really hope and wish that the community could instead of all this negative 1 or 2 person focus on people in the MH team, could maybe try to be a bit more understanding towards that multihunters cant please everyone, and even though it might seem obvious to YOU that XX:xx:x is cheating, the burden of proof on us multihunters might not always add up to what you think is the best solution.

I will also like to mention that more or less 70% (I dont have these stats with me as I am away on holliday vacation, ) of all cases reported to me, has a logical solution that does not involve cheating, and therefor, even though we dont take action with a planet you report, we will investigate them.

I wish all of PAs players a merry christmas.

[Kaiba]

Transparency would be a nice thing from the multihunter team as well. I'm not talking about every decision but those 1-2 major ones from each round.

Even having a MH section of the forums, like announcements where Ace as head MH can write a short report of the facts, the decision taken and why.. Also added to this could be any rule change made via this change.

I appreciate you are all volunteers but you hold a position of responsibility within the game and that makes you accountable to the playerbase you police. Some things like what I said above or even a mh reply to the threads that start up about 'injustices' would give ppl a better view into how the mh team think and reach decisions. It would also give all the facts beyond doubt and end some of the trolling that gives you guys a worse reputation.

Get a public face, a public voice and explain things and people would respect you more, wether they agree with your decision or not.

That's what you need, respect. Stop hiding in the shadows!!!

[Reincarnate]

stop the bullshit about "we will not discuss cases other than with then planet involved". it's nonsense. if someone has broken the rules and gets closed, let us know.

without knowing why people are closed, it is impossible for people to learn. this leads to the same rules being, unknowingly, broken as noone is aware it is rule breaking.

use aliases if you want. but show us the decision and why.

[Plaguuu]

yeah make a thread with posts like "farm planet and farmer was closed today" , "a planet named virgin mermaid of sucking huge rooster, got its name changed"

also yeeeah you need less proof. Its harder to be convicted of multiing in this game than getting judged for a crime in real court of law.

[Plaguuu]

If someone has done smth worth banning them for, I dont see a problem in giving their name out. Maybe people would play more by the rules if you guys actually had a Hall of Shame.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Plaguuu

If someone has done smth worth banning them for, I dont see a problem in giving their name out. Maybe people would play more by the rules if you guys actually had a Hall of Shame.

Well you will get prats who think its a badge of honour to be on that list but they are probably people the game could do without if it is to carry on. They are normally the negative rule breaking, 'cousin' using scum that troll pa every round.

I dont like how sometimes things that are expoilted in the game (not bugs and basic cheating) are used by the MH team to close people. I think a large part of the game is using diversity to maximise your planets chances of winning. There are many loopholes in PA that arent bugs but just shortsighted game design that bright minded individuals expose and use to their gain.

The salvaging thing is quite a good example because it was jumped on by the MH team mid round and people got closed for it. It never benefited the planet who did it and it didnt really destroy the hopes and dreams of the people who were attacking that planet. One night out of 49 will not ruin your round, you were obviously not good enough in the first place (Maniacmagic). As i saw it if you kept attacking people who would salvage everything then you would gradually move up the rankings, as a planet, a galaxy and an alliance. It was not something that should have been removed from the game, it was a tool that could be used to help defend yourself, to remove pointless steals and a god send for all those OCD Zik/Etd players. But now it seems it will be tampered with and changed because some people who were relying on a big teamup to escort them onto someone they had no chance of beating themselves in fair play cried and whined.

This is something the MH team should have stayed out of! Its not multiing, its not racist or offensive and it was NOT cheating, its exploiting a feature that was badly implemented by the PA team that is all.

[Nightwolf]

Basically Rein and Kai pretty much sum it up.

On the one hand you have planets getting closed and no-one knows what the hell is going on. Sometimes not even the actual planet that is getting closed. Ace's 'you know what you did wrong' doesn't really suffice.

On the other hand you have MH's getting too involved in the game. For example last round no intervention was needed at all. If people want to be douchebags, let them. Don't try to control everything.

I would like to add the situation of Merlin and Nitemare. Just let them play the friggin' game. As we've all known for a long time now: if you want to cheat you can. So there's really no need to be so hard on people that need an exception for the 'rule'.

In conclusion: loosen the f*ck up.

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

Well you will get prats who think its a badge of honour to be on that list but they are probably people the game could do without if it is to carry on. They are normally the negative rule breaking, 'cousin' using scum that troll pa every round.

I dont like how sometimes things that are expoilted in the game (not bugs and basic cheating) are used by the MH team to close people. I think a large part of the game is using diversity to maximise your planets chances of winning. There are many loopholes in PA that arent bugs but just shortsighted game design that bright minded individuals expose and use to their gain.

The salvaging thing is quite a good example because it was jumped on by the MH team mid round and people got closed for it. It never benefited the planet who did it and it didnt really destroy the hopes and dreams of the people who were attacking that planet. One night out of 49 will not ruin your round, you were obviously not good enough in the first place (Maniacmagic). As i saw it if you kept attacking people who would salvage everything then you would gradually move up the rankings, as a planet, a galaxy and an alliance. It was not something that should have been removed from the game, it was a tool that could be used to help defend yourself, to remove pointless steals and a god send for all those OCD Zik/Etd players. But now it seems it will be tampered with and changed because some people who were relying on a big teamup to escort them onto someone they had no chance of beating themselves in fair play cried and whined.

This is something the MH team should have stayed out of! Its not multiing, its not racist or offensive and it was NOT cheating, its exploiting a feature that was badly implemented by the PA team that is all.

As stated by the rules:

Deliberate attempts to use bugs/exploits through AND/OR other than through the standard pages

Punishment: Multihunters will contact PA Team. Together they will decide what abuse is and what not, and determine possible punishment if needed.

http://game.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=rules

It clearly indicates here that should situations arise where bugs or loopholes/exploits are discovered, it is up to the PA team and us to together solve the issue at hand, which was done in the salvage situation.

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by Kargool

As stated by the rules:

Deliberate attempts to use bugs/exploits through AND/OR other than through the standard pages

Punishment: Multihunters will contact PA Team. Together they will decide what abuse is and what not, and determine possible punishment if needed.

http://game.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=rules

It clearly indicates here that should situations arise where bugs or loopholes/exploits are discovered, it is up to the PA team and us to together solve the issue at hand, which was done in the salvage situation.

Sorry the salvage thing wasnt an exploit that gave an advantage. Killing your planet to stop you getting landed on is in no way advantgeous. It makes you, your galaxy and your alliance suffer from it. If it needed to be fixed in the PA teams eyes between rd 49 and rd 50 then fine that is there prorogative but there was no need for the MH team to get involved as no one gained from this shoddy coding.

You guys in your little cave just decided to wade in and close everyone in sight, and then be completely tight lipped on your reasons for doing so. Yet again we are back to transparency in the MH team and the dictator/nanny leadership and attitude of Ace.

It was the major issue of last round and nothing was put out to the community explaining why it was so bad to do this or why the MH team were getting involved in a negative effect exploit.

This is why Kargool we are all saying you guys power abuse. You give us no reason to think otherwise. Speak to the people, dont get involved in things that have no determential effect on round rankings and when asked a question by some enquiring player (especially HC's of alliances whos member is effected or accused) dont give them the short shrift or for lack of a better word act like a complete C U N T!!

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

This is why Kargool we are all saying you guys power abuse. You give us no reason to think otherwise.

I think this is extremly sad Kai, that you as a grown up person should actually think that we as multihunters abuse our powers to make the game less fun for you.

Do you honestly think that three grown up adults who have real life jobs, but have said yes to multihunt on our spare time in planetarion sit and scheme on how to make the game unplayable for you?

[Kaiba]

Who knows what you do Kargool, thats the crux of it. You are your own little club hiding in your special channel making decisions that affect a game that people put a lot of time into.

Yes we all appreciate you do the job on a volunteer basis and that you have to fit it around a real job but then so do most alliance officers and HC's and the entire PA team so your not in some special club there. Infact i would say that all the others probably put more time into what they are doing compared to you guys.

Why isnt the head MH electable by the community? ALOT of people have major issues with Ace and whilst the team is all volunteers the person running it should be able to be removed by a majority if they find him lacking in the job he has. The MH team can be volunteers but the leader should be elected from that group.

[DeadMeat]

You asked:
whats the rules when you are attacking a planet that is then closed?r request here:


DeadMeat

Our response:
You can\'t attack a closed planet.
If a planet get\'s closed while you are attacking it the system doesnt pull your fleets.

Ace

[Merlin]

The truth of the matter is MH makes the rules as they go along. PA crew wrings its hands and say it can do nothing and by god thats what they do NOTHING.
Ace has long since past his best before date and has infected the rest of the MH team with his little I am the king I make the rules BS.
Ask any of the PA crew they'll tell you as they told me they can't do anything about it. I suspect they won't do anything prefering instead to ride PA into the ground. And thats just what they are doing. MH team is a symptom of the apathy of the rest of PA crew, they can't and won't admit its a mistake.
Total waste of time writing here because you won't ever see a change.

[DeadMeat]

So why don`t they retire Ace then and let someone else takeover??

[Monroe]

Originally Posted by DeadMeat

So why don`t they retire Ace then and let someone else takeover??

The PA team is a team of equals, none can force another to resign. As long as Ace chooses to stay and does not break the PA Team rules there is very little that can be done to remove him even should the other PA Team members wish to do so.

[Merlin]

Originally Posted by Monroe

The PA team is a team of equals, none can force another to resign. As long as Ace chooses to stay and does not break the PA Team rules there is very little that can be done to remove him even should the other PA Team members wish to do so.

Which is what I said Ace is a power unto himself, PA crew is powerless to over rule or stop him.
So its Ace's rules or quit playing. As to the fact there are PA team rules, that's a joke and a half when Ace can do as he pleases, when he pleases, and the rest of the PA Team sits on their thumbs utterly powerless.

PA crew has no stones.

[Assassin]

Originally Posted by Monroe

The PA team is a team of equals, none can force another to resign. As long as Ace chooses to stay and does not break the PA Team rules there is very little that can be done to remove him even should the other PA Team members wish to do so.

That's very true the members of PA team cant remove another member of the PA Team unless he breaks the rules etc (even though some individuals have shown some blatant inconsistency in the way they run things)

However, although I know the current owners rarely show there face these days within this game or don't show any interest in it what so ever but surely they have say over who controls/runs there game? And forgive me but I consider the 2 most important areas in this game to be the coding side/general maintenance (obviously) and the policing side of the rules. So therefore maybe if there is constant issues they should review there staff.

Hi all btw its been a while

[Baddars]

sadly merlin, i have to agree with you.

i think ace should get just quit, im fed up with his "i am the soul leader and master of PA" attitude, and think we as a player base should push him out.

to do that, we should flame him in chans and PMs till he leaves.

but thats just my 2cp, i normally wouldnt suggest such action, but hes an idiot, and is like a cancer to PA

[Reincarnate]

there is a lot of blame for Ace, and the MHs in general, here but i dont think that is the biggest issue.

the set of rules within which they work is stupid. the whole "we cant give details because of data protection blah blah" is nonsense.

the entire process needs to be way more transparent.

[Remy]

I have been quick-reading this thread. I used to be an MH for about 18 rounds and started one round earlier then Ace (or two?).

Before any of you go flame at me for doing something bad 100 years ago: Yes, every MH makes mistakes, including me, and if i have wronged you in the past, I hereby apologize. Don't misread this for: if i ever upset you, i'm sorry. Thats not the case. I am apologizing for punishing anyone who didn't deserve the punishment ACCORDING TO THE RULES at that time.

There, that's out of the way, so maybe now I can add my two cents without ppl falling all over me about something that I can't even remember.

Let me start by giving you a few statements about MH and their job. Please mind that I started playing again in round 35-ish or so, so I have no clue as to what has changed in the tools since.

• MH have a terrible job. People only have to deal with them if something bad happens: you are punished or about to be.
• There was never a hardcoded exception punishment system in my time, just a system that would log and display interactions. Exceptions are recorded, but no automatic punishment is given.
• The exception system is only valid for times when 2 or more people play from the same IP, NOT when they play from different IPs. In my case, I would be free to defend, attack with my wife while being at work, but had to think about interactions with my wife while being home. Sometimes this was a nuisance, but never a real problem.
• Of course everyone hates Ace. He does impopular things. Also, the majority of the whiners about MH are those who got punished for somsehting. People have a tendency to blame everyone else for their own mistakes or 'crimes'
• I do think that every multihunter (or in fact, PA Team member) should periodically play a round and thus take off a round from PA Team responsibilities, to stay connected to the community and the game. I only discovered how much the game had changed when i got back after 18 rounds.
• Calling Ace a cancer is despisable. Tbh, i think its worse then any crap decisions Ace ever took or might have taken.
• The constant complaining about unclear rules is nonsense. The rules are clearly in the EULA/Manual. Every MH must abide by them and should be corrected if he or she does not follow the rules and should be fired if not following them repeatedly
• Some rules are by their very nature subjective, like any rule about abusive behaviour for example. All is in the eye of the beholder.
• The fact that players who get punished can appeal their case is fairly uncommon for online games. The fact PA even has such a mechanism is good.
• The constant call for more publicly announced cases, punishments and naming naughty players is understandable, but in most cases undesired; people have a right to privacy, even when they did something wrong. There are probably a lot of legal issues with publicly providing information. Some players state that if they themselves give permission to go in the open about their own case, this should be done. However, doing so might unwantingly expose others involved in the case who DO value privacy.
• Also, publicly discussed cases will only lead to endless bickering, flaming and naming. How would that be productive?
• PA Team/MH Team should always re-evaluate their rules (between rounds) and change them where needed AND ANNOUNCE THE CHANGES.
• MH should always treat players with respect no matter what they have done wrong. In my time I tried to do so, but sometimes miserably failed (sorry ;p ). However, players should treat MH with respect too, and I fully understand the MH irritation or even anger with certain players; it is no fun to be called a cancer, a nazi, a whore, hitler, or whatever.
• I personally did not think Ace was arrogant or something when iI was his collegue. Sure, sometimes he (and every other past, current or future MH) can act the dick, but hey, have you looked in the mirror lately? In my experience, the physics law applies here too: Action=-Reaction; You get what you give. I personally have had very polite appeals in the MH channels, where we totally diagreed on a case, but those nice players in the end stayed polite. I could always udnerstand anger, but you can be angered without becoming a total asshole

If you really think Ace is overstepping his boundaries and behaving unprofessionally (and you weren't calling him a cancer.....) you should file a complaint with PA Team or Jagex (i know i know, they don't care probably) and the PA Team should evaluate and take appropriate measures.

[Influence]

Originally Posted by Remy

• The constant complaining about unclear rules is nonsense. The rules are clearly in the EULA/Manual. Every MH must abide by them and should be corrected if he or she does not follow the rules and should be fired if not following them repeatedly
• Some rules are by their very nature subjective, like any rule about abusive behaviour for example. All is in the eye of the beholder.
• The fact that players who get punished can appeal their case is fairly uncommon for online games. The fact PA even has such a mechanism is good.
• The constant call for more publicly announced cases, punishments and naming naughty players is understandable, but in most cases undesired; people have a right to privacy, even when they did something wrong. There are probably a lot of legal issues with publicly providing information. Some players state that if they themselves give permission to go in the open about their own case, this should be done. However, doing so might unwantingly expose others involved in the case who DO value privacy.
• Also, publicly discussed cases will only lead to endless bickering, flaming and naming. How would that be productive?
• PA Team/MH Team should always re-evaluate their rules (between rounds) and change them where needed AND ANNOUNCE THE CHANGES.

If you really think Ace is overstepping his boundaries and behaving unprofessionally (and you weren't calling him a cancer.....) you should file a complaint with PA Team or Jagex (i know i know, they don't care probably) and the PA Team should evaluate and take appropriate measures.

The ability to appeal your case is indeed a good thing. However i wouldn't call it appealling, but pleading, as appealling would require a second opinion on the punishment given by a neutral authority.

Generally speaking (criminal) courtcases are part of public records. On one hand this helps the acquitted as the public trusts in the workings of the court. Should anyone still (publicly) discriminate the acquitted he can usually sue them, with the courtruling in hand. It also helps protect the respect for the court, as judges have to provide a full reasoning for any decision where they don't sentence in accordance to the law. This helps the public understand inconsequent decision making.
I genuinely don't think opening up the privacy of MH decision making will lead to increased flaming, in fact i think it will be quite the opposite. MH shouldn't publicly discuss cases, but their rulings (and reasoning behind these) should be public record. If privacy really is a greater issue to Jagex/PA-Team/MH-Team these public records could be anonymized.
In summary, it will help restore respect for the MH team, it will help reduce inconsequent rulings as MH's will be more aware of prior rulings, it will help acquitted players keep their reputation in the community. The only reason not to make things publicly is because i think MH's fear it will confirm favouratism and ill-reasoned inconsequent rulings.

I can take the recent case against Baddars as an example. The community(myself included) accused him of cheating(farming) when he sent his pods at JungleMuffin and landed on a hidden fleet, while a number of waves before the fleet had been fighting. MH's ruled it was not farming, as JM was closed in the last 2 ticks up to Baddars' landing and at the time of the closure his fleet was on run and hide. Therefor, JM wasn't able to have his fleet fight even if he wanted to. The accusers were never given any explanation why Baddars wasn't closed and as a result Baddars' name was continued to be dragged through the mud for the remainder of his round. Being accused severely damaged his reputation(in Baddars opinion), and not being properly acquitted didn't help fix it.
Furthermore, if Baddars' had not been aware of the accusations made against him, he wouldn't have gone to MH's to plead his case, and not even he would have known why he wasn't closed, over what understandably seemed like farming. This could have come back to haunt him for rounds to come without ever being given a proper chance to defend himself against the accusations, and face his accusers.

[Mzyxptlk]

Originally Posted by Remy

The exception system is only valid for times when 2 or more people play from the same IP, NOT when they play from different IPs. In my case, I would be free to defend, attack with my wife while being at work, but had to think about interactions with my wife while being home. Sometimes this was a nuisance, but never a real problem.

That is really, really stupid. It was stupid when you were MH, and it's stupider now, considering that by now, just about everyone has multiple ways to access the internet. Multis are no longer the neighbour, or your computer at work. It's your smartphone and your tablet.

Originally Posted by Hitler!

Of course everyone hates Ace. He does impopular things. Also, the majority of the whiners about MH are those who got punished for somsehting. People have a tendency to blame everyone else for their own mistakes or 'crimes'
(...)
MH should always treat players with respect no matter what they have done wrong. In my time I tried to do so, but sometimes miserably failed (sorry ;p ). However, players should treat MH with respect too, and I fully understand the MH irritation or even anger with certain players; it is no fun to be called a cancer, a nazi, a whore, hitler, or whatever.

People don't dislike the MHs for the actual decisions they make, they're usually correct.

For the most part, the complaints have to do with their attitude towards players. People don't like to be treated like a school kid being lectured by an angry teacher. The MHs have a culture of talking down to people. It's not Ace or any other specific individual. It's a systemic problem. A good example is the "you know what you did wrong, now tell me what is is so I can punish you" speech, which has been a staple of MH arrogance for as long as I can remember. If you can't tell me what I did wrong, then I did nothing wrong. Shit pisses me off, and I haven't even had one directed at me in at least 20 rounds.

Treat players like they're grown up human beings and they'll return the favour. If they don't, you can punish them. But if you act like a jerk, you don't have a foot to stand on when players retaliate. The MHs have the power, certainly, but not the moral high ground.

Originally Posted by Remy

I do think that every multihunter (or in fact, PA Team member) should periodically play a round and thus take off a round from PA Team responsibilities, to stay connected to the community and the game. I only discovered how much the game had changed when i got back after 18 rounds.

This is a really good idea. You could even extend that to limiting the time people can be a multihunter or PA Team member. There are some practical concerns, though, like having enough volunteers to be able to implement such a limit.

Originally Posted by Remy

The fact that players who get punished can appeal their case is fairly uncommon for online games. The fact PA even has such a mechanism is good.

Being required to listen to a lecture does not an appeal mechanism make. I say required, because last I checked, and you get punished further if you refuse to heed their summons. I refer to the teacher analogy above.

Originally Posted by Remy

The constant call for more publicly announced cases, punishments and naming naughty players is understandable, but in most cases undesired; people have a right to privacy, even when they did something wrong. There are probably a lot of legal issues with publicly providing information. Some players state that if they themselves give permission to go in the open about their own case, this should be done. However, doing so might unwantingly expose others involved in the case who DO value privacy.

Any legal issues can be covered by the EULA. That said, I do think that the policy of non-disclosure is a correct one, generally speaking. I think it would be acceptable to have exceptions to that policy, though, for example for cases that cause changes in the rules, or cases that influence many people.

Originally Posted by Remy

Also, publicly discussed cases will only lead to endless bickering, flaming and naming. How would that be productive?

Phew. Nipped that one in the bud!

[Assassin]

Originally Posted by Remy

[*]There was never a hardcoded exception punishment system in my time, just a system that would log and display interactions. Exceptions are recorded, but no automatic punishment is given.[*]The exception system is only valid for times when 2 or more people play from the same IP, NOT when they play from different IPs. In my case, I would be free to defend, attack with my wife while being at work, but had to think about interactions with my wife while being home. Sometimes this was a nuisance, but never a real problem.
.

Correct, there was never a hard coded system to punish people, however, there used to be when i was a MH a hard coded exception system into the game stopping players interacting so the MHs didnt need to do any policing with this subject. Other then of course the people who didnt apply to be put into the exception system. Once you were part of this proccess it stopped you doing certain things automatically. Beleive the PA Team removed it due too the community didnt like controlling factor.

[Remy]

Exception system:

I agree it is stupid, but i wasn't discussing the stupidity of rules, I was merely pointing out how it works to someone who posted stuff earlier in the thread that was incorrect.

As former MH I know that the exception system is basicly bollox, except that it helps to stop (cheating) people who are to dumb to cheat properly.

Disliking the MHs

I know from stories that some MHs are prone to act arrogantly, but since I basicly never had any dealings with them after I left MH, I have no clue how they act for real. The only thing that I know is from when I was MH myself, and I remember times where MHs would comment on arrogant behaviour of their collegues. Also, forgetting the occasional bad hair day i had, I think i always tried to be professional myself. About the fact that MHs apparently ask 'What do you think you did wrong' is a valid method sometimes to lure people into admitting their wrongdoings. The police use it all the time :P

Appeal

In my time defending yourself was required only if you thought you were unjustly accused. So, if you got accused/warned/closed, the punishment was already set, unless a player could properly turn it into reasonable doubt. So in reality, it wasnt teh punishment getting bigger if you didnt show up, it was like enforcing the already set punishment

Disclosure

I agree that at least some general stats should be made public, and that rule-changing cases should be publicized (anonymized)