Planetarion Forums

CrashTester · 2 Sep 2003, 11:56

Given that we in the UK are accepting swathes of asylum seekers and trying to integrate them into our society, do you think it would be more beneficial to both them and us as a country if on top of any other benefits that we already issue, we also allowed them free and immediate access to all our universities?

They could use this time in quality learning establishments to learn better english and further their skills to enable them to do more for us and themselves in the future?

Surely it would be as cheap to house them in halls of residence as it would in low cost housing elsewhere and and extra few grand educating them would surely be worth it in the long run, especially seeing as many are not allowed to work by law for the first 6 months of being here.

Maybe this would be a good way of keeping them off the streets hassling people when they could be putting their time here to good use, even if their application is unsuccessful.

Plus it would evenly disperse them right across the country which would in turn help relieve asylum hot spots.

Bloomers III · 2 Sep 2003, 11:58

i think teaching most of them basic english would probably be a better idea

Rommel · 2 Sep 2003, 12:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Bloomers III
i think teaching most of them basic english would probably be a better idea

Yep to the above.

If they get free education and university then it should be the same for everyone. Either everyone pays or no-one pays. They want to be treated the same as us then they should have to pay to go to uni.

CrashTester · 2 Sep 2003, 12:08

Quote:

Originally posted by Rommel
Yep to the above.

If they get free education and university then it should be the same for everyone. Either everyone pays or no-one pays. They want to be treated the same as us then they should have to pay to go to uni.

Why not look at it more like we do housing in that they need it more than others so they should be entitled to it for free?

If they could speak english and learn skills they would be better equipt to live in the country they find themselves in.

Bloomers III · 2 Sep 2003, 12:14

I thinnk perhaps an HND would be a better option than going to university, and also consider how many of them (only the young would porbably want to go to uni, but this is just an assumption) want to learn. also one of the main reasons we let people into this country is because they make useful cheap labour for jobs that none of us want, if they got all educated who'd do those jobs?!?!?!

Add · 2 Sep 2003, 12:16

if we offered free university to asylum seekers how many more people would get get claiming asylum here rather than going to university in their own countries.

Rommel · 2 Sep 2003, 12:20

Quote:

Originally posted by CrashTester
Why not look at it more like we do housing in that they need it more than others so they should be entitled to it for free?

If they could speak english and learn skills they would be better equipt to live in the country they find themselves in.

The housing one, i think, is a completely different kettle of fish all together. They don't necessarily need hosuing more than others. There are those asylum centres set up in various parts of the country, so if they need a place to stay they should go there when they arrive here. I think they should learn English before they are given a house, whether that's the case at the moment or not i have no idea.

For the houses you also have to bear in mind that not all British people claiming to be homeless are actually homeless. I know some people who are claiming to be homeless because they don't want to live at home with their parents, but their parents haven't kicked them out. The joys of having a pikey sister...

Obliterate · 2 Sep 2003, 12:36

Free, compulsory, english lessons - definately

Free university education - ridiculous

Dante Hicks · 2 Sep 2003, 13:10

I suspect this is a troll, but just in case :

Housing is completley different from an undergraduate education. You basically need the former to survive, or at least survive in a meaningful self. The latter is clearly not vital to survival.

Phang · 2 Sep 2003, 13:10

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Surely we should just have free University education for everyone.

winner

ChubbyChecker · 2 Sep 2003, 13:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Surely we should just have free University education for everyone.

Now that's just crazy talk

Punk · 2 Sep 2003, 13:18

I think you all are a bunch of raving loonies

CrashTester · 2 Sep 2003, 13:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
The latter is clearly not vital to survival.

If they are unable to get a job, feed/house/cloth themselves then it is just as vital for their survival.

Dante Hicks · 2 Sep 2003, 13:43

Quote:

Originally posted by CrashTester
If they are unable to get a job, feed/house/cloth themselves then it is just as vital for their survival.

You can get a job without a degree. In fact, you can get _most_ jobs without a degree.

Most people do not have degree's, and most people in the UK get by without randomly starving to death.

CrashTester · 2 Sep 2003, 14:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Dante Hicks
You can get a job without a degree. In fact, you can get _most_ jobs without a degree.

Most people do not have degree's, and most people in the UK get by without randomly starving to death.

Well, either you or Toccata & Fugue mentioned in another discussion of similar topic that they are unable to work at all for 6 months!

So lets put them into education and give them free university courses and accomodation.

Rachael · 2 Sep 2003, 14:07

Quote:

Originally posted by Obliterate

Free university education - ridiculous

ditto, if its free for them, it should be free for us as well

Rommel · 2 Sep 2003, 14:14

Quote:

Originally posted by CrashTester
Well, either you or Toccata & Fugue mentioned in another discussion of similar topic that they are unable to work at all for 6 months!

So lets put them into education and give them free university courses and accomodation.

No. They can learn English in those 6 months for free instead.

roadrunner_0 · 2 Sep 2003, 14:17

there would be outcry, you cannot put foreign nationals in front of your own citizens, us paying our taxes to put them through university would mean riots in the ****ing streets fs :/

Scoot951 · 2 Sep 2003, 14:31

Wait a minute. You guys make it illegal for them to work for half a year, then complain about how useless they are?

Rommel · 2 Sep 2003, 14:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Scoot951
Wait a minute. You guys make it illegal for them to work for half a year, then complain about how useless they are?

You actually think that they don't work during that time? They work, just the work illegally.

Nusselt · 2 Sep 2003, 14:38

I dont get this thread since 'they' already get free lessons to improve english if 'they' want it.

CrashTester · 2 Sep 2003, 14:51

Quote:

Originally posted by Nusselt
I dont get this thread since 'they' already get free lessons to improve english if 'they' want it.

But I mean more than just english lessons. I mean actually giving them quality education immediatley and free so that they can quickly improve their chances of finding work and settling in the UK without having to resort to begging and stealing to make ends meet.

Nusselt · 2 Sep 2003, 14:58

Quote:

Originally posted by CrashTester
But I mean more than just english lessons. I mean actually giving them quality education immediatley and free so that they can quickly improve their chances of finding work and settling in the UK without having to resort to begging and stealing to make ends meet.

wouldnt an even better idea be to allow them temp work permits in the specific industries that seem to employ them, farming, catering, construction etc?

CrashTester · 2 Sep 2003, 15:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Nusselt
wouldnt an even better idea be to allow them temp work permits in the specific industries that seem to employ them, farming, catering, construction etc?

Why not go the whole hog and actually give them an education so they can get proper jobs?

CrashTester · 2 Sep 2003, 15:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
If they work illegally why do you care, at least their working.

Because they are breaking the law? We dont want the UK becoming an open prison do we.

Nusselt · 2 Sep 2003, 15:02

surely a proper job is one in which they can make a legal tax contribution to the state?

CrashTester · 2 Sep 2003, 15:06

Quote:

Originally posted by Nusselt
surely a proper job is one in which they can make a legal tax contribution to the state?

Sorry, I didnt mean to say proper, I meant to say decent, as in one with prospects and away from entry level so that should they choose to go home they will do so with something meaningful to contribute to their economy.

Nusselt · 2 Sep 2003, 15:15

lack of education in their home contries isnt really a problem, either political persecution or economic hardship is, if you take Iraq which was the country with the biggest numbers coming here the population is one of the most highly educated in the arab world, and was in fact one of the most inclusive of women (not so much now apparently) it was either saddam or our sanctions that drove them here, giving them a uni degree and sending them back to iraq probably wont do anything for them.

Rommel · 2 Sep 2003, 15:21

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
They can't win with you can they. If they work illegally why do you care, at least their working.

I don't \o/

Rommel · 2 Sep 2003, 15:24

Quote:

Originally posted by CrashTester
Why not go the whole hog and actually give them an education so they can get proper jobs?

I believe this came up on another thread. You don't need a degree to get a "proper job". They can become builders or something, from what i've seen and heard we need more builders to cope with the expected population increase and with that more houses. They can be taught what to do by becoming an apprentice or something. I'm sure building isn't the only one needing more labour, but it was first one that came to mind.

Rids · 2 Sep 2003, 15:58

I think shooting them upon entry to the country would be by far the best idea.

Marilyn Manson · 2 Sep 2003, 16:17

Quote:

Originally posted by CrashTester
Plus it would evenly disperse them right across the country which would in turn help relieve asylum hot spots.

This doesn't seem to be very well thought out.

Would this be for every assylum seeker? If so, what would they actually recieve in the way of training/skills education at University?

I think a better idea would simply be to ensure that they can recieve those things in the usual social enviroment, rather than shoving them away into insitutions that may not neccesarily have the will or the means to give them anything relevant.

roadrunner_0 · 2 Sep 2003, 16:20

apart from anything else it would flood an already overcrowded university system.
teach them english: yes
give them basic skills: yes
give them jobs: yes
send them to uni: no, not in a month of sundays :/

roadrunner_0 · 2 Sep 2003, 16:38

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
I find it bizaar that you wouldn't want to see people in this country educated to the highest standard possible. Why prohinit asylum seekers in particular? If they are in this country it seems only right to give them equal oppurtunities to better themselves. As I said before, there is no need to give them free education per se, rather that education should be free for all, if there aren't enough university places, we should have more universities, not less students, supply and demand you see.

sorry, perhaps im not explaining myself very well as i havent really been going for the whole picture.
I would love it if we could offer free higher education for all (it would also mean that i would be £3500 better off atm, but there you go)
and i also agree with you that we should have more universities, but, we dont, and quite frankly, a university education would be wasted on a lot of these ppl until they have learned more basic skills and perhaps intergrated themselves into seciety somewhat.
As far as i am concerned, it is everyones decision to make of themselves what they will, but NO ONE can just start at the top, you have to work up to it!

Marilyn Manson · 2 Sep 2003, 16:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
I find it bizaar that you wouldn't want to see people in this country educated to the highest standard possible.

I think he meant not sending them mandatorily, rather than excluding them based on who they are.

roadrunner_0 · 2 Sep 2003, 16:43

Quote:

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
I think he meant not sending them mandatorily, rather than excluding them based on who they are.

yeah, thats it.

i mean, i have 2 cousins that have come from abroad to study in our university system, so i agree that anyone should be able to use it, provided that they can prove it would benefit them, as trying to teach an afgani unskilled worker particle physics* might be a bit much!

*this could have been any subject at degree level

Marilyn Manson · 2 Sep 2003, 16:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well obviously like the current system they should (a) want to go and (b) have the merit. I assumed that was a given.

Not in the original post in the thread, as far as I could tell.

Weeks · 2 Sep 2003, 19:08

Sounds like a good idea.

Tzencath · 2 Sep 2003, 20:57

i say shoot them, and whoever introduced tuition fees for uni students, problem solved

CrashTester · 3 Sep 2003, 14:00

Quote:

Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
Well as I said I had ASSUMED it was a given. Just sending peopel to university because there is nowhere else to put them is just as misguided as any of the other policies although it seems preferrablt ot just putting them in jail.

My original post did indeed mean to send them all to university to live in the halls of residence and to put them all on courses. It would house them and give them something to do during the day which would be beneficial to us or their home country once their application is processed.

Marilyn Manson · 3 Sep 2003, 14:03

Quote:

Originally posted by CrashTester
My original post did indeed mean to send them all to university to live in the halls of residence and to put them all on courses. It would house them and give them something to do during the day which would be beneficial to us or their home country once their application is processed.

Why should either party, the universities or the applicants, be forced onto each other, when both parties will probably be ridiculously mis-matched?

CrashTester · 3 Sep 2003, 14:14

Quote:

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
Why should either party, the universities or the applicants, be forced onto each other, when both parties will probably be ridiculously mis-matched?

Because they need somewhere to live, something to do with their time and some good education. They need it more than us.

plasmas_arms · 3 Sep 2003, 14:15

Quote:

Originally posted by CrashTester
My original post did indeed mean to send them all to university to live in the halls of residence and to put them all on courses. It would house them and give them something to do during the day which would be beneficial to us or their home country once their application is processed.

And where would we send OUR students (ie the ones born in britain, whos parents taxes paid for and funded those unis and halls?) .

Given that atm the ratio of unis:students is completely the wrong way around (too many people, not enough places) and many people have to pay their tuition fees, why should we send in more people and pay for them (unless they happen to have a couple grand sitting around in which case , fck off pls) ?

You make less sense than me.

Deepflow · 3 Sep 2003, 15:26

that would piss me off... as a person about to take out a student loan to pay for uni. we SHOULD still get grants... but we cant, i very much doubt the state could afford to pay for asylum seekers to go to uni without raising taxes.

Deepflow · 3 Sep 2003, 15:53

of course... it would be good if they could have it... but why them first and not us?

Marilyn Manson · 3 Sep 2003, 17:15

Quote:

Originally posted by CrashTester
Because they need somewhere to live, something to do with their time and some good education. They need it more than us.

You haven't answered the question.

CrashTester · 3 Sep 2003, 17:22

Quote:

Originally posted by Marilyn Manson
You haven't answered the question.

Yes I did. Somewhere to live = halls of residence, something to do with their time = university courses.

Currently immigrants are placed into communities that neither want nor can afford to keep them. I would consider that an unwilling party but they have to lump it dont they. At least in universities they will be contained to a degree, pardon the pun.

Marilyn Manson · 4 Sep 2003, 15:38

Quote:

Originally posted by CrashTester
Yes I did. Somewhere to live = halls of residence, something to do with their time = university courses.

No, you didn't.

I ask again, and this time in plainer English:

How would asylum seekers who did not have a necccesary standard of education to partake of university courses, or even did not have any formal education at all work within a degree course?

and

How would the universities deal with these hideously unsuitable people, let alone the rest, in terms of the obvious increase in terms of resources needed in every sector, to cater for these people?

It would be most likely more expensive than the present system, and would also not even guarantee that the persons would even gain anything from the experience.

This whole idea is completely ill-thought through and is based around a foolish desire to find somehwhere in society to convieniently 'shove' asylum seekers into.

Putting people who may be completely unsuited to universities against their will into them, and expecting benefits from such a measure is the height of nonsense. It wouldn't even be more financially astute than the present system.

Quote:

Originally posted by CrashTester
Currently immigrants are placed into communities that neither want nor can afford to keep them.

Under your scheme, immigrants would be placed into universities that would neither particularly want them, nor could afford them.

Swings and roundabouts.

Quote:

Originally posted by CrashTester
I would consider that an unwilling party but they have to lump it dont they.

Rommel · 4 Sep 2003, 15:53

Quote:

Originally posted by CrashTester
Yes I did. Somewhere to live = halls of residence, something to do with their time = university courses.

I'm sure that they'd love to live with lots and lots of students, majority of which will be drunk most of the time. The halls of residence are full enough as it is without housing immigrants in them. They have those asylum centres set up where they can go before they are issued with alternate accomodation. Something to do with their time, they can learn English and the asylum centres probably lay on activites.