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10 Jul 2003, 16:51
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#51
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Retired
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Back Porch Bar
Posts: 2,593
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All alliances should make a list of known cheaters, and have it stickied here, as well as being featured prominently on the portal.
"Blacklisting".
__________________
I'd rather be fishing.
Utterly useless since r3
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10 Jul 2003, 16:52
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#52
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Condemned to RP
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 1,654
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cochese
All alliances should make a list of known cheaters, and have it stickied here, as well as being featured prominently on the portal.
"Blacklisting".
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Why would people blacklist their friends?
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10 Jul 2003, 16:52
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#53
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I play the double-bass.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,198
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than we soon will have a alliance consits of known cheaters..
__________________
The music called Jaazzz..
Charlie Mingus, such nimble fingers
Droppin the bass, all over the place
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10 Jul 2003, 16:53
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#54
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Xanadu
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Camelot
Posts: 456
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cochese
All alliances should make a list of known cheaters, and have it stickied here, as well as being featured prominently on the portal.
"Blacklisting".
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On the other hand I like the idea of giving people a second chance. The world simply isn't black and white.
__________________
LDK s|ut
[23:33] <@Divine> hmm I think I may have a new GF aswell
[23:33] <@Divine> but dunno yet if I want a new GF so early in the round
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10 Jul 2003, 16:54
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#55
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I play the double-bass.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,198
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Quote:
Originally posted by laputa
On the other hand I like people giving a second chance. The world simply isn't black and white.
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2nd chance in online games is risky.
you dont have to care about other players, because of distance etc..
__________________
The music called Jaazzz..
Charlie Mingus, such nimble fingers
Droppin the bass, all over the place
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10 Jul 2003, 16:55
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#56
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Retired
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Back Porch Bar
Posts: 2,593
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Quote:
Originally posted by ParraCida
Why would people blacklist their friends?
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Who said anything about friends doing it?
I'm in alliance A, and see someone from the **** list in there. I report his nick to whoever updates the list, and *bam*, it's on there listing him in alliance A. He's not my friend, I don't give a toss about it.
__________________
I'd rather be fishing.
Utterly useless since r3
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10 Jul 2003, 17:01
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#57
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U've been Moderated
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: getting sex0red by pretty women
Posts: 1,510
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haha, so basically i don't like you. and i send mail to someone keeping a list  and boom you're blacklisted?:P smart idea.... 
__________________
Titans forever and ever.
<Forest> i fuc*ing hate password sharers, i will log into macs bros account and get scans every 2 mins
<Tempestuous> cypher just happens to be the world's cutest creature
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10 Jul 2003, 17:03
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#58
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The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
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Quote:
Originally posted by cyphie
haha, so basically i don't like you. and i send mail to someone keeping a list and boom you're blacklisted?:P smart idea....
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Obviously some sort of proof would be in order then?
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10 Jul 2003, 17:46
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#59
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Raaaaaaaah!
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,296
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Well done, have too say I'm very impressed, it took a lot of guts to do what you did, people protecting their friends who cheat has always been a problem hopefully you've struck a blow to snap the cycle.
I'm 95% sure that Fury Net logged PMs, I certainly never really used PMs there because I was paranoid a certain Tech officer would read them. I never once considered if she could it would have been illegal, to be honest anyone who treats this game as something which should be concerned with the legallity of actions like this one should be lynched.
__________________
Hicks
Mercury & Solace
Always [Fury]
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10 Jul 2003, 17:58
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#60
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milchjiper
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Germany
Posts: 65
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Quote:
Originally posted by cyphie
as i said... if they cheated it's good you got em closed...
the way how is fking pathetic tho.
and the fact F2F did NOT get closed is even worse..... something multihunters should look at ... but guess that aint important enough...
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What's with F2F?
__________________
Lance
Getting into it
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10 Jul 2003, 18:01
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#61
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lithuania
Posts: 42
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Yes can Zeus or someone else involved explain why F2F is still open?
I'm glad we are getting rid of cheaters but closing cheaters selectivly isn't nice. As logs showed there was login details of F2F in there and xtotez confirmed that they were working so he should be closed as well.
On a side note: xtotez should be closed too for logging in theese accounts as well.
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10 Jul 2003, 18:06
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#62
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Happy
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Canada eh
Posts: 4,793
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zeus isn't a multihunter so he can't explain it
just as i'm not and i don't have the details. which even if i did i wouldn't be allowed to disclose.
__________________
Where ever you go, there you are.
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10 Jul 2003, 18:06
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#63
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m u p p e t
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Whenever Wherever
Posts: 477
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Quote:
Originally posted by gadas
Yes can Zeus or someone else involved explain why F2F is still open?
I'm glad we are getting rid of cheaters but closing cheaters selectivly isn't nice. As logs showed there was login details of F2F in there and xtotez confirmed that they were working so he should be closed as well.
On a side note: xtotez should be closed too for logging in theese accounts as well.
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Zeus is not involved anymore, and tbh, for suggesting that XtotheZ should be closed, you sir are a complete and utter w*nkstain.
He provided a service that's long overdue to this community by getting these cheaters closed. F2F probably had some kind of excuse made up that managed to get him off, you haven't seen all proof sent to PATeam I'll bet, so you can't possibly comment.
Whilst I don't really doubt F2F cheated, you're in a glass house mate.
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10 Jul 2003, 18:10
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#64
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Lithuania
Posts: 42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Supernova9
Zeus is not involved anymore, and tbh, for suggesting that XtotheZ should be closed, you sir are a complete and utter w*nkstain.
He provided a service that's long overdue to this community by getting these cheaters closed. F2F probably had some kind of excuse made up that managed to get him off, you haven't seen all proof sent to PATeam I'll bet, so you can't possibly comment.
Whilst I don't really doubt F2F cheated, you're in a glass house mate.
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are you impying i'm cheat? then report me but don't accuse me of this **** here plz.
As for xtotez he could well give logs to pa team and not tried logging in(yes logging in other account when your own is cheating).
As for proof against F2F xtotez replayed here waht he tried F2F login/pass and it worked.
So kindly feck off
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10 Jul 2003, 18:26
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#65
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Oktoberfest :)
Posts: 397
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isnt it multying if some1 collects huge login informations (like Xto did) so only if u report it first u are loyal and a non cheater
/me would like to see some1 posting Xtos logs with a few logins there
was a joke
Respect Xto u showed us what was worth for u
have a nice life im outa this 
__________________
-------------------------------------------------
Alliances: Rock, FanG, Angels, Vengeance
Communities, BG's: OuZo, gôsu, Kralizec, Critters, Xraid
Prod to not have been in many alliances
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10 Jul 2003, 18:27
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#66
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¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sept 2057
Posts: 1,813
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F2F's login was one of the first I saw. I logged into the account to verify it worked before submitting it. If PA crew feel this is wrong, feel free to close my planet (45:3:3).
__________________
in my sig i write down all my previous co-ords and alliance positions as if they matter because I'm not important enough to be remembered by nickname alone.
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10 Jul 2003, 18:29
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#67
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Cool Cuddly Beautiful
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Norway
Posts: 26
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Well done xtothez. You are now one of the very few Planetarion community people I respect.
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10 Jul 2003, 18:32
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#68
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Imposter?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK / Canada
Posts: 717
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I don't want to condone the act of 'PM spying' but in this case I applaud what was done, cheaters ruin the game for everyone who does not cheat and any means that is needed to catch them is justifiable in my opinion.
__________________
Æ - from the ashes of good intentions come forth lasting friendships... the Æternals.
R2: XXV
R3: Æternals
R4: Fx9/Wolfpack
R5: Legion
R6: Legion BC
R7: Legion BC
R8: RaH BC
R9: RaH HC
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10 Jul 2003, 18:41
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#69
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Inactive as they come
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: right here...
Posts: 54
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I too dislike the idea of logging pm's but in this case with your suspicisions i believe you were in the right xtothez.
Thank you for coming out and letting this be known to the community.
Cheaters from any alliance need to be stopped.
Pa is dying and its because of the cheating (hi who really has a chance vs. 10 escort fleets or wants to continue playing with that in the game) not because the game has lost appeal.
Again well done and thank you
~*Empress*~
__________________
I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge.
Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world.
--Albert Einstein
Make it a rule of life never to regret and never to look back. Regret is an appalling waste of energy; you can't build on it; it's only good for wallowing in.
--Katherine Mansfield
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10 Jul 2003, 18:48
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#70
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Too close for comfort
Posts: 246
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so how many planets were closed? and what were their scores?
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10 Jul 2003, 19:11
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#71
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[Vision]
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 897
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Very good job xtothez 
i certainly hope this changes the attitude of the players in closing their eyes or looking to the other side when they see friends who cheat
evnethough ppl may not like the way you got the info i say its well worth it, ppl who are cheating this organized arent deserving anything and have no rights to complain about anything.
Great job
__________________
[Vision] in a lost dream, contributing to The 5th Element at present
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10 Jul 2003, 19:12
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#72
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Lucky
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: -
Posts: 3,830
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nice work xtothez. class!
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10 Jul 2003, 19:18
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#73
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Inflate My Ego
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Hengelo, The Netherlands
Posts: 1,011
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Quote:
Originally posted by Aryn
zeus isn't a multihunter so he can't explain it
just as i'm not and i don't have the details. which even if i did i wouldn't be allowed to disclose.
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indeed he isn't. Maybe someone should tell him. Perhaps he'll shut up for once then... 
__________________
'Forever' said he. And then he was gone.
Who keeps an arrow in his bow,
And if you prod him, lets it go?
A fervent friend, a subtle foe –
— Scorpio
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10 Jul 2003, 19:30
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#74
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Das Scoot
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 788
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I for one applaud XtotheZ's actions. The privacy issue doesn't seem to be much of a concern here, unless you guys are passing around credit card numbers in pm's. This is one case where the ends justify the means.
__________________
n00b since Jan 11th, 2001
I don't really know what I'm doing here
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10 Jul 2003, 19:44
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#75
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No, really...
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Out of my mind
Posts: 399
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Re: -
Quote:
Originally posted by n4m3l355
Privacy is the penumbra of the Bill of Rights.
Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas
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Nowhere in the Bill of Rights does it even mention privacy. I suggest you take a good hard look at that quote. There is no resounding conviction of language there. It is extremely flimsy and is being used as a catch phrase. Just because some people interpret the first amendment to be about privacy, does not mean that all people, and neccessarily all law will interpret it the same way. As painful as it is to say it: There is no right to privacy.
__________________
Stomp ten peasants to achieve burnination
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10 Jul 2003, 19:45
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#76
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Fightin-irish for life
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: guinness brewery
Posts: 2,177
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well played xtothez
the ends justifies the means
__________________
Ascendancy, now with added Irish
"In the absence of orders, find something and kill it."
-Rommel
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10 Jul 2003, 20:01
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#77
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Swansea
Posts: 798
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well done XtotheZ
cheaters should b stopped no matter what
__________________
In Elysium till the end.
Former [1up]
Current [Spore]
Returned under the IRC nick BenSwansea
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10 Jul 2003, 20:02
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#78
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 49
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IRC isn't a safe medium, at no point you can be completely sure what you are saying isn't tapped. The motd often rolls down a list saying you basically have no rights on the server, and if you don't agree, d/c.
Of course it's 'wrong' to eavesdrop, but you have little ground to do anything about it.
On that matter it's their own fault they got caught like this. Bad cheaters get caught, the good ones don't.
Nice to know though that there are people who at least stick to their principles when it comes to it.
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10 Jul 2003, 20:05
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#79
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Damn Dog
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,249
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disappointing to be in #ouzo and see people thinking it was xtothez who let ouzo down. the only people who let ouzo down are the cheaters.
<xxx> xtothez screwed over OuZo or ouzo members?
<Merlin> all of the above
amn.
__________________
"that's a stupid thing to say and you're a stupid person for saying it."
the tolling gang
Last edited by the_dastardley_chihuahua; 10 Jul 2003 at 20:26.
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10 Jul 2003, 20:10
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#80
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Ark-miner wannabe
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,005
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Shows lots of spine to do that xtothez, respect to you
As for anybody claiming he ****ed anybody over, get real for **** sake, you cheated now live with it.
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10 Jul 2003, 20:12
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#81
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Wizard
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The Great White North eh!
Posts: 102
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PM logging is at least immoral, if not illegal. Without a court order you have the right to expect your private conversations to be private, thats why law enforcement must get a court order permitting a wire tap.
Its quite possible xtothez is quilty of some infraction of the law.
The info he obtained would not be premitted in a court of law.
This is no different.
I applaud the idea but I can't condone the illegal methods.
__________________
I got roids......but I'm not going to share them with you!!
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10 Jul 2003, 20:12
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#82
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jump around :)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Germany; near FFM
Posts: 10
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Hm you have my respect for doing this, XtotheZ..
Though sad to see especially these people being closed for cheating - with warranty
__________________
.exit light, enter night
[ history blabla: [+] - [Xan] - retired for 3 rounds - [+] - [? ] ]
[ r9.5 - The Children of Bodom - 18:3:22 ]
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10 Jul 2003, 20:21
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#83
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part time ghost
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Grimsby
Posts: 925
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well this is a bugger
i'm VERY dissapointed in certain people
__________________
Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
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10 Jul 2003, 20:27
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#84
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 49
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Quote:
Originally posted by merlin1955
PM logging is at least immoral, if not illegal. Without a court order you have the right to expect your private conversations to be private, thats why law enforcement must get a court order permitting a wire tap.
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Doubt it. Normally there is a disclaimer in the motd, depending on what's in the motd, it will often say something along the lines you have no rights when accessing the server, admin is allowed to check all logs if he deems necessary, and if you don't like it disconnect.
I'm no lawyer but if you accept those terms I think it's quite legal to check if the logs/pms if the admin wants to.
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10 Jul 2003, 20:31
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#85
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Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Swansea
Posts: 798
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Quote:
Originally posted by the_dastardley_chihuahua
disappointing to be in #ouzo and see people thinking it was xtothez who let ouzo down. the only people who let ouzo down are the cheaters.
<xxx> xtothez screwed over OuZo or ouzo members?
<Merlin> all of the above
amn.
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no merlin, he screwed the cheaters only! which is a good thing they need to b stopped.
__________________
In Elysium till the end.
Former [1up]
Current [Spore]
Returned under the IRC nick BenSwansea
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10 Jul 2003, 20:38
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#86
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No, really...
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Out of my mind
Posts: 399
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Quote:
Originally posted by merlin1955
PM logging is at least immoral, if not illegal. Without a court order you have the right to expect your private conversations to be private, thats why law enforcement must get a court order permitting a wire tap.
Its quite possible xtothez is quilty of some infraction of the law.
The info he obtained would not be premitted in a court of law.
This is no different.
I applaud the idea but I can't condone the illegal methods.
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I'm sorry but email isn't even protected much less a pm on a server that someone else owns. If you went to a friend's house to plan an illegal activity with a third party, and he recorded your plans on tape while hiding behind the curtains or not present, that tape is admissible as evidence for conspiracy, whether the friends think its 'moral' or not. Please stop the legal arguments, they really have no basis here.
__________________
Stomp ten peasants to achieve burnination
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10 Jul 2003, 20:42
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#87
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a bucket
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Chatham, UK
Posts: 1,073
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Quote:
Originally posted by Azaghal
Doubt it. Normally there is a disclaimer in the motd, depending on what's in the motd, it will often say something along the lines you have no rights when accessing the server, admin is allowed to check all logs if he deems necessary, and if you don't like it disconnect.
I'm no lawyer but if you accept those terms I think it's quite legal to check if the logs/pms if the admin wants to.
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as these were done on the OuZo server what it says when U join pa net does not matter, as far as I can see it says no such thing on OuZonet, but then Xtothez owns it so he should know 
my oppinion on it is that he should have tryed to sort out the situation withing OuZo first (I know I am hopelessly nieve if I think this would work) but otherwise I guess I am not too annoyed with it except that I guess he has destroyed OuZo in the process which I believe has generaly not been pro cheating, indeed we have had similar problems of OuZo ppl reporting others before, which I think shows that OuZo has not generaly been a cheaters alliance.
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10 Jul 2003, 20:45
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#88
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cochese
All alliances should make a list of known cheaters, and have it stickied here, as well as being featured prominently on the portal.
"Blacklisting".
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known cheaters? hm tell me plz coz i don`t understand why can`t cheater "a" detected in alliance "cube" change his nick to "b" and join alliance "oval"?
__________________
Daisy handkerchiefs
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10 Jul 2003, 20:47
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#89
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Wizard
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The Great White North eh!
Posts: 102
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I'm sorry but email isn't even protected much less a pm on a server that someone else owns. If you went to a friend's house to plan an illegal activity with a third party, and he recorded your plans on tape while hiding behind the curtains or not present, that tape is admissible as evidence for conspiracy, whether the friends think its 'moral' or not. Please stop the legal arguments, they really have no basis here.
Thats another argument altogether.
The phone company can not tap your phone on a whim. The operator of any other communications service unless specifically stating that the server is not secure and your PM may be recorded and used, can not do so either. I'm not talking about cheaters, they get what they deserve.
I was talking about doing something illegal to obtain that info.
__________________
I got roids......but I'm not going to share them with you!!
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10 Jul 2003, 20:48
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#90
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Internal Error
Join Date: May 2002
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 696
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i got nothing more to say but:
wonderfull work xtothez, the logging of PM's is, in my eyes, accepteble to get cheaters
__________________
Nitros
[]LCH[] ..lets change history
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10 Jul 2003, 20:52
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#91
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-= Plush Puppet =-
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Portugal
Posts: 158
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fleet_Multiplex
Your not going to ever make it stop Zeus, you've left it to late now its part of pa which will never go away.
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in round 8 u haven't seen it happen like that....it wasn't free...
__________________
Ex-RaH BC
Ex-Olympians HC
r4 - 133:25:?? PTA
r5 - 35:7:?? MI/ViruS/NoS/PTA
r6 - 21:7:4 NoS/PTA
r7 - 21:4:12 NoS/PTA
r8 - 25:5:9 NoS / Titans & Plush / PTA
r9 - 24:2:7 Olympians / PTA
WC4 - 1:6:4 winner gal
r9.5 - 42:7:8 & 11:2:25 & 19:2:16 Olympians / PTA / Plush
r10 - XX:YY:ZZ RaH!
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10 Jul 2003, 20:53
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#92
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Internal Error
Join Date: May 2002
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 696
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Quote:
Originally posted by Neferti
well this is a bugger
i'm VERY dissapointed in certain people
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the cheaters or ppl like xtothez?
__________________
Nitros
[]LCH[] ..lets change history
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10 Jul 2003, 20:58
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#93
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Imposter?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK / Canada
Posts: 717
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scorpio
indeed he isn't. Maybe someone should tell him. Perhaps he'll shut up for once then...
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He does however have more experience dealing with and 'spotting' multis and cheats in PA than 99% of people that have ever been involved with the game.
__________________
Æ - from the ashes of good intentions come forth lasting friendships... the Æternals.
R2: XXV
R3: Æternals
R4: Fx9/Wolfpack
R5: Legion
R6: Legion BC
R7: Legion BC
R8: RaH BC
R9: RaH HC
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10 Jul 2003, 21:17
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#94
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part time ghost
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Grimsby
Posts: 925
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nitros
the cheaters or ppl like xtothez?
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i deliberately left that open.
__________________
Is this the real life?
Is this just fantasy?
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10 Jul 2003, 21:18
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#95
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milchjiper
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Germany
Posts: 65
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Quote:
Originally posted by merlin1955
I'm sorry but email isn't even protected much less a pm on a server that someone else owns. [...]
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I see a growing number of statements in emails growing "This email is confidential etc.. if you are not the intented receiver etc."
I don't think that you can exlude privacy in general, it is only the problem of marking contents as private. If someone whispers something into the other ones ear it is probably private..if he screams it over the place it is quite public.
__________________
Lance
Getting into it
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10 Jul 2003, 21:23
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#96
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Here and Not Here
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 183
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Well done. Cheaters must be stoped for the fairness of the game and for everyone's enjoyment. And in your defence logging the PMs, you probably knew anyways if you were teh guru of the tech, and if they didn't have anything to hide what was the probelem?
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10 Jul 2003, 21:27
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#97
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No, really...
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Out of my mind
Posts: 399
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Quote:
Originally posted by merlin1955
The phone company can not tap your phone on a whim. The operator of any other communications service unless specifically stating that the server is not secure and your PM may be recorded and used, can not do so either. I'm not talking about cheaters, they get what they deserve.
I was talking about doing something illegal to obtain that info.
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No, but your friend can tap his own house. There is a large distinction between PRIVATE and PUBLIC. XtotheZ can monitor his own server for anything he sees fit. They don't have to use it. You aren't comparing apples to apples. There was nothing 'illegal' about his activities.
__________________
Stomp ten peasants to achieve burnination
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10 Jul 2003, 21:32
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#98
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Slacker
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Kent
Posts: 83
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It's unfortunate that a number of friends and allies whom I trusted have turned out to be little more than cheaters, and I am happy to see action taken against them, but I in no way condone xtothez's actions in obtaining the data that proved this. Legal or illegal, it's certainly unethical, and I definitely won't be going anywhere near the OuZo IRC server in the future.
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10 Jul 2003, 21:38
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#99
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Inquisitor
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: England
Posts: 2,207
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Well done XtotheZ.
Nice one.
__________________
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That uniform you're wearing
So hot I cant stop staring.
Zhil
[Spore] Executive
[1up]
[Fury]
Inquisitorial Lord Protector of His Emperor's Glorius Empire
[20:19:04] <mazzelaar> I have to say a big up to Zhil - without those 8 def calls you covered we would've been screwed. | r12 End Ceremony
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10 Jul 2003, 22:00
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#100
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Wizard
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The Great White North eh!
Posts: 102
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Quote:
Originally posted by SpazMonster
No, but your friend can tap his own house. There is a large distinction between PRIVATE and PUBLIC. XtotheZ can monitor his own server for anything he sees fit. They don't have to use it. You aren't comparing apples to apples. There was nothing 'illegal' about his activities.
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Thats really amusing. Wonder why they call it a PRIVATE server...nm thats beyond most of you as well.
Actually he went out of his way to modify the code so that he could monitor PM's. His server it may be, but information on it was private and he knew as much when he modified the code so he could access private material. He's admitted he did that. So he knew it was wrong when he did it. But he was showing us his l337 coding skills.
Theres an equal chance he did this before he knew there was cheating, for his own puriant purposes. We only have his word that he did it after. Its still an invasion of privacy. In most parts of the world you do have privacy rights and expectations of privacy. It is a shame so many of you seem to claim to be from third world dictatorships. Or perhaps you are truly ignorant of your rights, thats equally sad.
Possibly the most telling thing about this isn't that he invaded people's privacy, but that he saw fit to tar and feather all the innocent people in that group by making his self agrandizing little story so public.
Seems theres more EGO at stake then actually exposing a few cheaters.
Once he passed that material on to PA crew that should have been the end of it.
And since many of you are not now playing, and or claim not to be playing next round........well you know the value of your input now.
I've prepaid to show my support for PA. Most of you are here simply to bait, flame, and argue. Contributing nothing but spam.
__________________
I got roids......but I'm not going to share them with you!!
Last edited by Merlin; 10 Jul 2003 at 22:12.
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