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Unread 31 Oct 2006, 00:46   #1
genosse27
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SiN/TGV

hi

do i look correctly and they just merged?
and there is no official announcement about it?

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Unread 31 Oct 2006, 01:17   #2
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Re: SiN/TGV

I dont, I mean, I could have said something but im pussywhipped so I cant tell
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Unread 31 Oct 2006, 01:30   #3
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Re: SiN/TGV

Yeah good work in keeping it secret
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Unread 31 Oct 2006, 02:45   #4
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Re: SiN/TGV

Congratulations with that marriage! May it last, and may you stick together through thick and thin.

PS! Did you start planning children yet?
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Unread 31 Oct 2006, 11:25   #5
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Re: SiN/TGV

It’s a bit of a farce imho. I argued against such easy and initial loss free merging when it was raised last round as it largely makes a mockery of the work and effort of those you pass, this is doubly so when we have this current scoring system.

Two ‘failing’ (by their usual standards anyway) shouldn’t be able to ‘cheat’ their way around the score system to gain a better position. When a normal alliance who want to ‘recruit’ their way to a position they have the penalty of rarely receiving the full score of their new member the merger system means that the two alliances keep all of their score which is frankly wrong and makes mergers as much about gaining rank than making an alliance stronger.

Now I’m not against mergers in general, they help make a lot of alliances a stronger unit, especially when real planning is put into them. And this can obviously then mean the alliance is more likely to return the next round and moral is raised in the alliance so the members are happier in the game but these mergers for rank/convenience mid round where we know full well that TGV and SiN will once again be separate entities come next round is just taking the piss and has a negative effect on those around them. Lets just look at myth for example, their mergers can only be good for their members and the members of the alliances who merged with them (and if they put some thought into it and got the right fit alliances with the right activity and online times to compliment their own then it will be good for the alliance also) BUT those many alliances they then passed only because of the merge must have their moral knocked. Alliances like Heroic for example who I’m sure we will all agree have a command team that’s shows real promise but who are already struggling due to the changes in the alliance limit and now have to see themselves lose places to an alliance due to a merger.

All in all I firmly believe that while mergers should be allowed they shouldn’t basically be lossless things. If you want to merge at the start of the round then fine, but once you start the round any merger should then come with a penalty so any merger is done for a long term purpose of making a better alliance not a short term rank gain
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Unread 31 Oct 2006, 16:00   #6
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Re: SiN/TGV

Gool: did u finally get married ?! grats dude. And about the merge, if it happened, take care of my boy Qerr|afk he has my sincerest vouches as an ace.
As for the fact of the merge, if TGV did merge with SiN, its good not only for both sides, but for entire community, imo. TGV = awesome tech base, and SiN had (not sure about now) great member base. i hope the new SinGV will work out
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Unread 31 Oct 2006, 16:02   #7
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Re: SiN/TGV

oh, im not getting married till march, I think qebab was referring to the marriage between SiN and TGV. I can merely speculate on the causes and how the merge happend since im not a HC of TGV anymore.
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Unread 31 Oct 2006, 17:14   #8
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
..rant...
Old discussion, been there, done that, never got anywhere
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Unread 31 Oct 2006, 17:24   #9
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remy
Old discussion, been there, done that, never got anywhere
If you can't attack the argument, attack the person


My attitude isn't dissimilar to wakey's - I'm definitely not keen on these mergers of convenience.
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Unread 31 Oct 2006, 17:33   #10
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Re: SiN/TGV

I think that the current system with an high alliance limit and the merger option being added, and if mergers avoids alliances falling apart (i.e Subh) I think its a viable option.

Lets hope that next round gives a lower alliancelimit and no merge options.
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Unread 31 Oct 2006, 18:00   #11
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I think that the current system with an high alliance limit and the merger option being added, and if mergers avoids alliances falling apart (i.e Subh) I think its a viable option.

Lets hope that next round gives a lower alliancelimit and no merge options.

50 would be a well balanced, and fair number.

As for wakey's rant.....

Well that is really all it is....a rant.
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Unread 31 Oct 2006, 18:05   #12
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
If you can't attack the argument, attack the person


My attitude isn't dissimilar to wakey's - I'm definitely not keen on these mergers of convenience.
he didn't attack the person, he was right, wakey's point (which is valid - or well the first paragraph or so that i bothered to read) has been made earlier and more or less ignored, remy wasn't disagreeing i believe
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Unread 31 Oct 2006, 21:45   #13
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Re: SiN/TGV

Oh wakey please come from your high horse before you fall from it!
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Unread 31 Oct 2006, 21:48   #14
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
he didn't attack the person, he was right, wakey's point (which is valid - or well the first paragraph or so that i bothered to read) has been made earlier and more or less ignored, remy wasn't disagreeing i believe
However it is totally irrelevant to this discussion or to this round as that the merge system works like this this round. Wakey just wanted to rant for the hell of it. If he wants to change the way the merge system works he is free to do so using the suggestions forum as everyone else.
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 00:02   #15
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
However it is totally irrelevant to this discussion or to this round as that the merge system works like this this round. Wakey just wanted to rant for the hell of it. If he wants to change the way the merge system works he is free to do so using the suggestions forum as everyone else.
How's it irrelevent. We are on ALLIANCE DISCUSSIONS on a thread about SiN/TGV merging. A merge which highlights the reasons in game merging for no penalty is majorly flawed especially in a round where the score system see's alliances only gaining a fraction of most recruits scores (especially when they have previously been stuck in the 'black hole' alliances for a while but have been one of the few to keep playing and get out of there, that your so eager to just let go on their merry way)

And yes Remy its not new, its a subject thats been discussed before both with the current system and the previous ones but just because somethings been discussed once doesnt mean we should just ignore it. This is espceclaiily true when situations happen that bring the subject to the front again, especially when its a rare case like this where it isnt just effecting the lower end like most previous merging issues have been and thus might actually intrest the forum community and pateam more
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 00:06   #16
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
How's it irrelevent. We are on ALLIANCE DISCUSSIONS on a thread about SiN/TGV merging. A merge which highlights the reasons in game merging for no penalty is majorly flawed especially in a round where the score system see's alliances only gaining a fraction of most recruits scores (especially when they have previously been stuck in the 'black hole' alliances for a while but have been one of the few to keep playing and get out of there, that your so eager to just let go on their merry way)

And yes Remy its not new, its a subject thats been discussed before both with the current system and the previous ones but just because somethings been discussed once doesnt mean we should just ignore it. This is espceclaiily true when situations happen that bring the subject to the front again, especially when its a rare case like this where it isnt just effecting the lower end like most previous merging issues have been and thus might actually intrest the forum community and pateam more
Sometimes I wonder if you act retarded or if you simply IS retarded. You argue the RULES this game is having, and where some alliances have decided to do a move the game rules allows them to do, and you argue that because you think its bad for the game? Well, then shut the hell up, and make a suggestion to revise the merge system insted of using your time to sprout your manure onto theese forums.
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 01:37   #17
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Sometimes I wonder if you act retarded or if you simply IS retarded. You argue the RULES this game is having, and where some alliances have decided to do a move the game rules allows them to do, and you argue that because you think its bad for the game? Well, then shut the hell up, and make a suggestion to revise the merge system insted of using your time to sprout your manure onto theese forums.
So he's argued against it before it was introduced, makes a post that is pretty well argued and you disagree with everything he has done up to this point?

Hey that merger clearly didn't affect your judgment on the issue. The fact is regardless of any rules, you've opened yourself to bad PR because you've done something which is seen as something against the spirit of the game. If you don't like the criticism, shouldn't have merged.
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 01:51   #18
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Re: SiN/TGV

On a sidenote, we stopped saying "you is retarded" in kindergarden, Kargool.
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 01:59   #19
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
So he's argued against it before it was introduced, makes a post that is pretty well argued and you disagree with everything he has done up to this point?

Hey that merger clearly didn't affect your judgment on the issue. The fact is regardless of any rules, you've opened yourself to bad PR because you've done something which is seen as something against the spirit of the game. If you don't like the criticism, shouldn't have merged.
I would have thought that you were able to note that I am no longer having anything to do with TGV anymore, but I'll make that clear again. I am no longer in charge or have anything to do with the decisions that TGV takes.

And im sorry, if he got a problem with the rules of the game, then he SHOULD take it up with the people running the game instead of sniping at people who plays within the rules of the game.

And tbh, I think that the merge probably kept about 30-40 people from stopping playing the game.
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 02:52   #20
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Re: SiN/TGV

Gotta be there to realise how hard it is to actually keep an alliance alive. Merging was probably the best solution in this case, I don´t see why some ppl are against this rule. Probably not retarded, but obsessively arguing with everyone not sharing his thoughts. Oh well, ever thought you might be wrong, wakey? That in some cases merging benefits the ppl involved, hence the game?
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 06:16   #21
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
On a sidenote, we stopped saying "you is retarded" in kindergarden, Kargool.
In some darker parts of the metropolitan area of Los Angeles, they still do, believe it or not.

But honestly, I didn't realize SiN was playing until I confirmed on the Alliance Overview thread.
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 06:23   #22
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Re: SiN/TGV

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Originally Posted by demiGOD
But honestly, I didn't realize SiN was playing until I confirmed on the Alliance Overview thread.
Is that a good or a bad thing?
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 07:13   #23
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedlind
Is that a good or a bad thing?
I don't know. I'm not very fond of you guys since R12. I had a lot of SiN incs when I was with Veneratio back then.

So maybe not?
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 07:57   #24
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Re: SiN/TGV

How come their called tgv and not sin/tgv etc? Seems a bit unfair on sin.
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 09:41   #25
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Re: SiN/TGV

not if you compare tgv's avg. score and size and the one sin had. also the memberbase were kinda unequal. think its ok to call the ally tgv.

and people should stop to cry. its not like exi merged with the penis-allianz :P
i think its good for pa. now tgv has a little more impact to game dynamics.
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 10:09   #26
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by zokka
How come their called tgv and not sin/tgv etc? Seems a bit unfair on sin.
Without going into details here, not unfair at all.
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 10:17   #27
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
It’s a bit of a farce imho. I argued against such easy and initial loss free merging when it was raised last round as it largely makes a mockery of the work and effort of those you pass, this is doubly so when we have this current scoring system.

Two ‘failing’ (by their usual standards anyway) shouldn’t be able to ‘cheat’ their way around the score system to gain a better position. When a normal alliance who want to ‘recruit’ their way to a position they have the penalty of rarely receiving the full score of their new member the merger system means that the two alliances keep all of their score which is frankly wrong and makes mergers as much about gaining rank than making an alliance stronger.

Now I’m not against mergers in general, they help make a lot of alliances a stronger unit, especially when real planning is put into them. And this can obviously then mean the alliance is more likely to return the next round and moral is raised in the alliance so the members are happier in the game but these mergers for rank/convenience mid round where we know full well that TGV and SiN will once again be separate entities come next round is just taking the piss and has a negative effect on those around them. Lets just look at myth for example, their mergers can only be good for their members and the members of the alliances who merged with them (and if they put some thought into it and got the right fit alliances with the right activity and online times to compliment their own then it will be good for the alliance also) BUT those many alliances they then passed only because of the merge must have their moral knocked. Alliances like Heroic for example who I’m sure we will all agree have a command team that’s shows real promise but who are already struggling due to the changes in the alliance limit and now have to see themselves lose places to an alliance due to a merger.

All in all I firmly believe that while mergers should be allowed they shouldn’t basically be lossless things. If you want to merge at the start of the round then fine, but once you start the round any merger should then come with a penalty so any merger is done for a long term purpose of making a better alliance not a short term rank gain

Isnt it in the spirit of PA, to win the game, within the rules of the game mechanics ?

If the engine allows mergers then thats that. Small nations unite under a single banner to overthrow whatever monkey holds the top spot. I fail to see the problem with that.

Merging really isnt that different from allying you know, all it does is add one score ahead of the others instead of two.

Think about it.
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 12:26   #28
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by rain
Gotta be there to realise how hard it is to actually keep an alliance alive. Merging was probably the best solution in this case, I don´t see why some ppl are against this rule. Probably not retarded, but obsessively arguing with everyone not sharing his thoughts. Oh well, ever thought you might be wrong, wakey? That in some cases merging benefits the ppl involved, hence the game?
I know how hard it is to keep an alliance alive, and I’ve not once said that I don’t think mergers can have an advantage for the game. In fact I state so in my first post on this thread. The merger system though has always been a system that helps 2 alliances motivate themselves more while demotivating many others who find their hard work is overturned by others circumnavigating certain restrictions that those doing normal recruitment have to put up with.

The admin mergers were always bad enough as it allowed alliances to recruit players from an alliance without them going through the 72 tick alliance less period but this round its even worse. The score system is such that if TGV had gone out and started recruiting SiN people through normal channels they would have found that from a score and ranking pov they wouldn’t have grown much, the only score increase they would see would be the score gained during the 72 tick wait period. Everyone is aware of these score restrictions but a number of alliances (and not just SiN/TGV they are just the most well known) are merging to get around this or trying to merge to get around it.

There shouldn’t be any benefits to merging that aren’t also present in normal recruiting. After all surely the main point of a merge isn’t the rank gain but the improved infrastructure. The score gain shouldn’t be an issue in the merge and it certainly shouldn’t give them a score gain that goes against the whole setup for alliance score.

Quote:
Originally Posted by genosse27
and people should stop to cry. its not like exi merged with the penis-allianz :P
i think its good for pa. now tgv has a little more impact to game dynamics.
It shouldn’t matter if it’s a merge for first place or a merge for 30th place. The later may not affect you like the first one maybe does but there’s people who it does effect. For too long the whole line by the vocal community and to a lesser extent PAteam has been “It doesn’t matter what negative effect it has as long as it isn’t a negative effect for the top5” which is wrong as the impact especially this round is the same no matter who it is, it just doesn’t generally effect the people on this forum
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 12:33   #29
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Re: SiN/TGV

Ok so you have a point wakey, any idea on how should it be solved?
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 12:57   #30
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
Ok so you have a point wakey, any idea on how should it be solved?
To solve the biggest problem it causes with the current alliance score system, the easiest solution would be simply a case of having one of the alliances set as the primary one (in this case that would probably be TGV). The primary alliance would be considered to be recruiting the other alliances members and when the merge process starts the members of this alliance would have their base scores set and the score gain the primary alliance would get would only be the score gained during this period. This would obviously put them on the similar footing as any other alliance who mass recruits members from elsewhere.

The 72 hour alliance less periods a little harder to sort. With a bit of coding you could maybe have a system where the merge is proposed, when accepted you have a 24 hour get out period where either side can change their minds before the secondary alliance is disbanded, places reserved for them in the primary alliance. Once their 72 hours were over they would then automatically obtain their place in the target alliance. You would probably have to give members an opt out chance so if they really don’t agree with the merge and don’t want to be in the new alliance they don’t have to go through the 72 tick period twice.

The automation of the system would encourage mergers for building a stronger alliance reasons as they wouldn’t need to all apply and be accepted one by one as a manual system would force but there’s no ranking/score bonus that encourage rank/score/convenience mergers
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 13:28   #31
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Re: SiN/TGV

Ok, now make a thread in Planetarion Suggestions?
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 13:53   #32
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Re: SiN/TGV

Are you crazy, Wakey just likes to whine about things. Yes, its the kettle calling the pot black, but seriously, your point could EASILY have been made with making an own thread on the suggestions forum.
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Unread 1 Nov 2006, 13:59   #33
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Re: SiN/TGV

Wakey's suggestion effectively renders mergers worthless as people could as well just leave alliance A and join B then instead.
But then again, that's how we know him :-)
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Unread 2 Nov 2006, 01:20   #34
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Wakey's suggestion effectively renders mergers worthless as people could as well just leave alliance A and join B then instead.
But then again, that's how we know him :-)
As being worthless?

Wakey should sometimes crawl out from his precious hide-out to see that there is more in this (PA) world. He always comes with the recruitment option. But as I explained him several times already, you are depended upon the amount of applications you get. From previous experience out of every 4 applicants we had in previous rounds only 1 was good enough. YES we have higher standards then F-crew, but does make us elitists?

I do not now how the applications went thusfar this round, I'm just a part-time player thusfar, but I assume with an 80 player alliance limit my guess is it went kinda slow.

As far as the rankings go, I doubt that was a motive for the current HC crew, since in SiN the rankings are never regarded all mighty since we never had the memberbase to truly compete.

So my personal advice to Wakey, move your merger crusade to Planetarion suggestions or another thread on this forum and stop litering this one with it. Or do us all a favor and stop posting all together.
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Unread 2 Nov 2006, 01:42   #35
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Re: SiN/TGV

Holding onto the 72 hour waiting time makes merges utterly pointless as Heartless stated. A whole alliance without any ally def for 72 ticks? Wonder how well they'd hold onto those rocks
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Unread 2 Nov 2006, 22:58   #36
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Re: SiN/TGV

I havent played the game in ages and not sure what this new "merge" feature has in PA but I shall throw in my 2 cents.

A merger of 2 like minded alliancs in order to prevent both alliances from crumbling and disappearing or to improve their odds of winning is something that should be encouraged. This game is dying and the more players can be kept in the game the better.

A merger for the convenience of rank/score is pointless especially if the merger falls apart at the end of the round. Thats basically an alliance, the only diffrenc is that in the current version of PA you get speed bonuses for defence if your part of the same alliance so the advantage of having all of your members under the same alliance is tremendous. This of course will make the merge option much more of a benefit instead of an alliance.

However like I said I cant really say much more since I havent really been following the game much lately or been online on irc. From what I know of the HC's they dont strike me as the people that are concerned about rank over the overall benefit of TGV and its members, and if I am wrong I shall just take away their access
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Unread 2 Nov 2006, 23:24   #37
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Re: SiN/TGV

I've finally found out why this merge took place;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedlind
[22:05:08] <Ced|zz> we needed 40 shitty players to compensate for the loss of you
[22:05:14] <Ced|zz> that's how shit YOU are
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Unread 3 Nov 2006, 20:31   #38
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_
I've finally found out why this merge took place;
Busted
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Unread 3 Nov 2006, 23:45   #39
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Re: SiN/TGV

So did Tgv approach SiN or vice versa? Either way thought SiN might have approached lch since the whole nd thing etc etc
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Unread 4 Nov 2006, 08:23   #40
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
So did Tgv approach SiN or vice versa?
No comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
Either way thought SiN might have approached lch since the whole nd thing etc etc
Why would SiN approach LCH because of the "whole ND thing" ?
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Unread 4 Nov 2006, 12:02   #41
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Re: SiN/TGV

i was reffering to when SiN were allied and merged with newdawn 1 round long time ago. Having worked with the command before i though if u were looking for a new merge u might have asked the alliance that friendly with newdawn atm
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Unread 4 Nov 2006, 13:35   #42
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Lets just look at myth for example, their mergers can only be good for their members and the members of the alliances who merged with them (and if they put some thought into it and got the right fit alliances with the right activity and online times to compliment their own then it will be good for the alliance also)

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Unread 4 Nov 2006, 13:39   #43
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rinoa
i was reffering to when SiN were allied and merged with newdawn 1 round long time ago. Having worked with the command before i though if u were looking for a new merge u might have asked the alliance that friendly with newdawn atm
Clearly you don't know the result of the SiNND merger (r13 btw)
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Unread 4 Nov 2006, 14:11   #44
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Re: SiN/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedlind
Clearly you don't know the result of the SiNND merger (r13 btw)
Instead of replying with such a crap comment, you could inform him by explaining that due to the war we fought when we merged, we lost many players and weren't able to reform for 2 rounds.
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Unread 4 Nov 2006, 14:37   #45
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Re: SiN/TGV

It wasn't a crap comment at all. Obviously you've got it all wrong yourself.
The SiNND merger went bed because there were simply too many differences at too many levels.
Before you guys start pointing fingers, I'll take a lot of the blame for that...
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