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Unread 2 Sep 2003, 20:18   #1
Mirai
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This just in: FOX News insults own viewers

http://www.freepressed.com/

Some examples:

Quote:
"The use of the FOX news trademarked phrase on the cover is likely to cause confusion among consumers as to the origin and sponsorship of the book." FOX Attorney Dori Hanswirth said. "You have to remember that people who watch FOX and listen to AM talk radio aren't what you'd call 'critical thinkers.' They don't call themselves 'Dittoheads' for nothing."
Quote:
Responding to a comment by Franken that he intended the cover to be a joke, Hanswirth used the ridiculous, but understandable, conservative argument that Franken has become "increasingly unfunny" since he began making fun of them.
Quote:
"This is much too subtle to be considered a parody," Hanswirth said. "Franken's book does not qualify as satire because it's over many conservative Republican's heads."
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Unread 2 Sep 2003, 20:20   #2
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its sad that afterall this will change nothing
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Unread 2 Sep 2003, 20:23   #3
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I was watching Fox News this afternoon
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Unread 2 Sep 2003, 20:25   #4
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have you downsized your avatar?



why dont you watch CNN instead? FOX is so hipe
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Unread 2 Sep 2003, 20:27   #5
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Because it was terrible, that's why I watched it.

Until I was made to put on Ready Steady Cook.
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Unread 2 Sep 2003, 20:29   #6
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Whenever I watch fox news it makes me feel paranoid and scared of everything. Hence I don't like watching it. But I don't have CNN here, so I'm annoyed.
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Unread 2 Sep 2003, 20:36   #7
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I stumbled upon Fox news for a few minutes the other day, right after that muslim leader had been killed. They had an American Colonel on as their Iraq expert. He ranted something about the french and pulling out of Kosovo if France doesnt help out in Irag soon.

Then they switched their reporting to the UN security council where the US were trying to gather UN support for the occupation. "Think french" the Fox presenter said and started going on about the axis of weasels.

Whichafter I couldn't take anymore and changed the channel.
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Unread 2 Sep 2003, 21:08   #8
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it intresting (and somewhat scary) how easily a private news-station can be brought in line with the goverments wishes. thats even worse than a dictatorship, at least in that case the people know they get only fed the news they are allowed to know.

so the french dont support sending troops to iraq that would be under us-command, to clean up a mess that would have never existed, if someone would have listened to them in the first place, just because the us isnt capable of doing it on its own? all that without getting any economical or political benefit out of the whole deal. damn french, how dare they?
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Unread 2 Sep 2003, 21:36   #9
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This is a fab quote on the state of American news reporting which I feel fits into this thread:

"Americans are so ignorant that even when they watch television news programs they come away actually knowing less about the world than they did before, because when they came to the program they knew they were ignorant, and when they leave, they are just as ignorant, but don't know it anymore!"

- Bill White, Pravda
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Unread 2 Sep 2003, 21:58   #10
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watch BBC it has sophie raworth
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Unread 2 Sep 2003, 23:22   #11
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Originally posted by wu_trax
it intresting (and somewhat scary) how easily a private news-station can be brought in line with the goverments wishes.
Who brought FOX into line with the government's wishes and why haven't they done that with all the other networks?

In a free news market, why is it scary to find a pro-government/right-wing/<insert favorite pejorative here> network?
Quote:
thats even worse than a dictatorship, at least in that case the people know they get only fed the news they are allowed to know.
You don't really buy into all that "freedom of the press" stuff, do you?

Freedom of the press means the freedom to be left-wing or to be right-wing, the freedom to criticize the government as well as the freedom to support it, and--ultimately--the freedom to be wrong as well as the freedom to be right.

Yes, the poor dumb citizens will be bombarded with conflicting views and will actually have to decide who and what to believe. They may actually believe someone who's wrong or, worse, who disagrees with you!

I can see where some people could find that upsetting.
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Unread 2 Sep 2003, 23:47   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
Who brought FOX into line with the government's wishes and why haven't they done that with all the other networks?

In a free news market, why is it scary to find a pro-government/right-wing/<insert favorite pejorative here> network?

You don't really buy into all that "freedom of the press" stuff, do you?

Freedom of the press means the freedom to be left-wing or to be right-wing, the freedom to criticize the government as well as the freedom to support it, and--ultimately--the freedom to be wrong as well as the freedom to be right.

Yes, the poor dumb citizens will be bombarded with conflicting views and will actually have to decide who and what to believe. They may actually believe someone who's wrong or, worse, who disagrees with you!

I can see where some people could find that upsetting.
the problem comes when the majority of media presented as in the usa, is mostly all right-wing, neo-conservative and worships the government.

The citizens don't get a fair choice then do they? Thus they all turn into chimpanzee loving, blood thirsty, war hungry freaks

Zar
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Unread 2 Sep 2003, 23:55   #13
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FOX told the world first that bush had actually won the election.


Fox News also has a relative or close friend of the Bush family as their 'top guy'. Coincidence?
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Unread 3 Sep 2003, 01:15   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by JammyJim
FOX told the world first that bush had actually won the election.


Fox News also has a relative or close friend of the Bush family as their 'top guy'. Coincidence?
Dubya's cousin owns FOX.
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Die You Bitch Minister of Insanity - "Timete Nostrum Piscem Furoris"

My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever, we begin bombing in 5 minutes - President Ronald Reagan, in a radio check where he did not realize the microphone was on and the station broadcasting
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Unread 3 Sep 2003, 03:09   #15
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Originally posted by Zar
the problem comes when the majority of media presented as in the usa, is mostly all right-wing, neo-conservative and worships the government.
If that were true then, yeah, I guess it could be seen as a problem.
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The citizens don't get a fair choice then do they? Thus they all turn into chimpanzee loving, blood thirsty, war hungry freaks
If only real life were so simple.
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Unread 3 Sep 2003, 04:27   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tactitus
Yes, the poor dumb citizens will be bombarded with conflicting views and will actually have to decide who and what to believe.
I think the issue (or problem) is that they aren't bombarded with conflicting views. They are 'bombarded' with a similar viewpoint from all of the major press outlets.

Sure, there will be tactical differences, the NYT will praise Politician A over Politcian B and USA Today the other way round, etc. But overall the message of the media will tend to reflect the class interests of the owners of the media, the sponsors, and (on some level) the government. Obviously I'm presenting a very crude analysis here, it's a lot more complicated than this.

The obvious retort is "Well, set up your own newspaper then", which is indeed possible in a formally free society (this is one of the many, many reasons why such a society is preferable from a society which would not tolerate such a thing). Ignoring the barriers to entry (which are formidable), how is the media funded?

I'm not aware of any news source which is self-funded through viewer contributions alone (well, except BBC type systems which is basically money extorted at gun point anyway). Increasingly so, media relies on advertisers to pay costs of production, distribution, etc. Even relatively elite publications like The Economist are 50% advertisement. A similar story is true in TV news of course.

Anyway : Let's say I set up a newspaper which advocates the elimination of capitalism, the end of intellectual property, radical overhaul of land ownership and the elimination of most corporations.

How many adverts would I sell for my first issue? Would my "Why Industrial Farming Threatens the Future of Our Planet" article be followed by a two-page spread for McDonalds new range of Happy Meals? I think not. This is only one problem a "non-system" newspaper would face, there are many others (distribution, access to government sources, etc)

I'm sure you reject my analysis of course, but I'm trying to show that criticism of the US media stems a bit further than simply "lol, they disagree with me!".

(p.s. Before anyone posts a knee-jerk 'Oh, and I suppose your country is any better?' comment, exactly the same is true for the UK media - I'm merely commenting on the US to keep it on topic)
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Unread 3 Sep 2003, 04:58   #17
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I've seen some radical articles in the NYT magazine. In the 60s/70s I think they were are at it over there. Anti-capitalist art often gets reviews in top papers. In the interweb line, Slashdot runs MS ads.

I think any analysis of the freedom of the press has to accept some level of common values and reasonability in any system. Someone who buys an ad-supported newspaper should be rationally aware that there could be a conflict of interest. If people don't want to hear view X it's not such a loss of freedom that view X isn't in their paper. I don't mind that the Sun wouldn't print a Greenspan article. Freedom can mean whatever you what it to mean and I don't think constructing a thought experiment about whether a certain view would be expressed is a good test.

Criticisms of American press need to involve the word "McCarthy" at least once. Here we had that Alistair Campbell fellow allegedly being ungentlemanly to people at the interface of the press and the government. Any threats to freedom come more from people abusing power than from legit contracts. imo. In conclusion:
1) we are free
2) it doesn't matter that we aren't free
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Unread 3 Sep 2003, 05:21   #18
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Originally posted by queball
I've seen some radical articles in the NYT magazine. In the 60s/70s I think they were are at it over there. Anti-capitalist art often gets reviews in top papers. In the interweb line, Slashdot runs MS ads.
The "radical" period of the NYT is incredibly over-rated.

Because these aren't totalitarian institutions there is always going to be "cracks". This is where campaigning is useful, and why there's always a chance for a good article to filter through. You might just get an editor who is particularly impressed with one article, or didn't pay attention, or whatever. These are human systems, and not computer programs. There have been instances where TV programs that were "too radical" have been shown, and there have been repurcussions later. We're not talking about a crude "central committee of censorship" and so you'll always get the 5-10% (if that) of content which might be a little out there. But that doesn't stop the other 95% being a monotonous drone.

Art is different as it's seen (rightly so at the moment) as totally divorced from the struggle (or mass movements generally). Also, you get the paradox of because we're in a period of such utter reaction things like lefty art (or even publications) can be tolerated because they are so pathetic. Right now, WHSmith's will happily stock "The Morning Star" because it's just another publication that a few oddballs pickup ocassionally. If there was a mass movement which was leftist orientated (and a real threat), you can get bet your bottom dollar they wouldn't stock it (if it wasn't banned outright of course).

This isn't just a thought-experiment, some historical work has been done looking at 'The Daily Herald' newspaper in the UK which at one time was a worker's paper and (I believe) the most popular in Britain. The lack of advertisements is blamed as one of the key factors in it's decline and fall.

The web offers a unique opportunity since a lot of the people doing work there haven't been indoctrinated in the same way most journalists seem to have. There's also the issue of low barriers to entry (even accounting for bandwidth). This might only be a temporary lapse in corporate control of our information flows, or it could be the beginning of the end of their reign. Who knows?

And as for Slashdot and MS - Slashdot are pretty "radical" but I'd still say they aren't classed as a "threat" in a general system sense. It's not like the editorial content is particularly strong. Some of the comments are very anti-capitalist (although some are very pro-capitalist ofc) but I'm not sure this is viewed as anything other than a glorified letters page in a traditional newspaper.
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Unread 3 Sep 2003, 05:55   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
This isn't just a thought-experiment, some historical work has been done looking at 'The Daily Herald' newspaper in the UK which at one time was a worker's paper and (I believe) the most popular in Britain. The lack of advertisements is blamed as one of the key factors in it's decline and fall.
So the readers weren't particularly loyal or they couldn't support the price. I wouldn't see a problem at all if this happened to a speciaiist magazine. For current affairs, a well informed populace is nice and all, that's a reason we have the BBC. Maybe they should produce a newspaper.
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Unread 3 Sep 2003, 06:36   #20
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Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I think the issue (or problem) is that they aren't bombarded with conflicting views. They are 'bombarded' with a similar viewpoint from all of the major press outlets.
So you say. In the US, conservatives claim the media has, overall, a liberal bias--and vice versa. The "proof" of such bias is typically Presidential approval ratings: Clinton scores high--ah-ha, the media must be controlled by the liberals; Bush scores high--oops, now they're all conservatives! Besides being insulting, it's not even plausible.

So not only are Americans being brainwashed into supporting Bush but they were also brainwashed into supporting Clinton--by essentially the same media! Now granted, in the US the differences between 'liberals' and 'conservatives' aren't as pronounced as in some countries; but to assert that Bush and Clinton are interchangeable as far as the media is concerned (or the Trilateral Commission, I guess) seems pretty far over the top to me.
Quote:
Sure, there will be tactical differences, the NYT will praise Politician A over Politcian B and USA Today the other way round, etc. But overall the message of the media will tend to reflect the class interests of the owners of the media, the sponsors, and (on some level) the government. Obviously I'm presenting a very crude analysis here, it's a lot more complicated than this.

The obvious retort is "Well, set up your own newspaper then", which is indeed possible in a formally free society (this is one of the many, many reasons why such a society is preferable from a society which would not tolerate such a thing). Ignoring the barriers to entry (which are formidable), how is the media funded?

I'm not aware of any news source which is self-funded through viewer contributions alone (well, except BBC type systems which is basically money extorted at gun point anyway). Increasingly so, media relies on advertisers to pay costs of production, distribution, etc. Even relatively elite publications like The Economist are 50% advertisement. A similar story is true in TV news of course.
Well set up your own web page then. Even a communist should be able to afford that!
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Anyway : Let's say I set up a newspaper which advocates the elimination of capitalism, the end of intellectual property, radical overhaul of land ownership and the elimination of most corporations.

How many adverts would I sell for my first issue? Would my "Why Industrial Farming Threatens the Future of Our Planet" article be followed by a two-page spread for McDonalds new range of Happy Meals? I think not. This is only one problem a "non-system" newspaper would face, there are many others (distribution, access to government sources, etc)
There seems to be no shortage of such articles and stories, however, for all that. Still, I hardly think it's fair to criticize capitalists for refusing to fund their own destruction.

In any case, it's your own damn fault for trying to pursue a such radical agenda. And if it's any consolation to you, my newspaper advocating laissez-faire capitalism, radical reduction in the size and scope of the government and the strengthening of individual rights would probably not fare much better. Advertisers tend to shy away from extreme positions on either end of the political spectrum (no need to invoke class struggles or sinister conspiracies--it's just good business).
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I'm sure you reject my analysis of course, but I'm trying to show that criticism of the US media stems a bit further than simply "lol, they disagree with me!".
Well your criticism does (though it's silly), but I don't think the communist perspective is typical of GD in particular or the world press in general, who often seem to single out the American media as being primarily responsible for an American foreign policy they disagree with.
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Unread 3 Sep 2003, 07:58   #21
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Originally posted by Tactitus
Who brought FOX into line with the government's wishes and why haven't they done that with all the other networks?

In a free news market, why is it scary to find a pro-government/right-wing/<insert favorite pejorative here> network?

You don't really buy into all that "freedom of the press" stuff, do you?

Freedom of the press means the freedom to be left-wing or to be right-wing, the freedom to criticize the government as well as the freedom to support it, and--ultimately--the freedom to be wrong as well as the freedom to be right.

Yes, the poor dumb citizens will be bombarded with conflicting views and will actually have to decide who and what to believe. They may actually believe someone who's wrong or, worse, who disagrees with you!

I can see where some people could find that upsetting.
the problem is that most of yor goverment seems to be pro-government/right-wing/<insert favorite pejorative here>
which major news-company is at least a little critical about your goverment? i didnt see much worth mentioning
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Unread 3 Sep 2003, 08:01   #22
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Originally posted by Tactitus
So you say. In the US, conservatives claim the media has, overall, a liberal bias--and vice versa. The "proof" of such bias is typically Presidential approval ratings: Clinton scores high--ah-ha, the media must be controlled by the liberals; Bush scores high--oops, now they're all conservatives! Besides being insulting, it's not even plausible.
maybe your media supports whoever is in power, because they depend on their informations about some things?
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Unread 3 Sep 2003, 14:52   #23
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Originally posted by wu_trax
the problem is that most of yor goverment seems to be pro-government/right-wing/<insert favorite pejorative here>
which major news-company is at least a little critical about your goverment? i didnt see much worth mentioning
Most major news organizations are a fair bit critical of the government, if you care to look. Iraq, the war on terrorism, the economy, the deficit, etc--the government gets criticized on all these issues, all the time.
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maybe your media supports whoever is in power, because they depend on their informations about some things
So the media supports the government so they can get information to, um, help them do a better job of supporting the government?
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Originally posted by Toccata & Fugue
The role of the media is to dispense the Capitalist myth to people such as yourself, who even though you may disregard most of you are told still are conditioned except certaint things as a given. This isn't a communist perspective it's just a political economic breakdown of the mass media.
The "Capitalist myth" isn't a communist perspective? And who said communists don't have a sense of humor?!
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Unread 3 Sep 2003, 14:53   #24
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Originally posted by Tactitus
So you say. In the US, conservatives claim the media has, overall, a liberal bias--and vice versa. The "proof" of such bias is typically Presidential approval ratings: Clinton scores high--ah-ha, the media must be controlled by the liberals; Bush scores high--oops, now they're all conservatives! Besides being insulting, it's not even plausible.

So not only are Americans being brainwashed into supporting Bush but they were also brainwashed into supporting Clinton--by essentially the same media! Now granted, in the US the differences between 'liberals' and 'conservatives' aren't as pronounced as in some countries; but to assert that Bush and Clinton are interchangeable as far as the media is concerned (or the Trilateral Commission, I guess) seems pretty far over the top to me.



---------
One small problem with your position here. Clinton and Bush would BOTH be right wing politicians in europe. Yes, shocker, americans can choose between two right wing parties. Maybe that's why around 50% don't bother to vote ?

The scope of discusson is so narrow. Take Vietnam, it was seen afterwards as a mistake by most americans I'm sure, and some saw it as a military failure. The most dark blue saw it as unwillingness to apply necessary force (drop the bomb..).
Not many saw it as a crime against humanity. No investigation was started to catch criminals of war. Generals who decided to bomb villages with napalm, or carpet bomb whole populated areas, had no fear of getting prosecuted. Actions like these were seen as mechanics of war.

At the same time, if an organisation like al qaeda decides to attack the pentagon, it is a terrorist attack. War can only be fought by US rules. And at that war the US is superior of course. Still the US government will not let the international law apply to us-soldiers.

The recent events, where North Korea denies to stop a program to get an operative nuclear bomb, because the US will not give them a non-aggression pact, is quite striking. If it is that important to prevent them from getting the bomb, why can the US not give them their non-aggression pact ? It's very easy, the US feels like it has to have it's hands free to invade where ever and whenever it fits them. Would you say this angle is well reported in the american press ?
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Unread 3 Sep 2003, 15:00   #25
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Dubya's cousin owns FOX.
I thought it was one of Rupert Murdoch's

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Unread 3 Sep 2003, 15:47   #26
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Originally posted by Kåre Willoch
One small problem with your position here. Clinton and Bush would BOTH be right wing politicians in europe.
I doubt that, but even if it were true that would make this thread even sillier (if that's possible). If both Republicans and Democrats are right-wing, then FOX media isn't an outlier at all--it's mainstream! FOX can hardly be responsible for turning (or trying to turn) the country to the right if it was solidly there to begin with.

And I touched on a related issue above. It's true that the political spectrum isn't as broad in the US, but if it were really true that Democrats = Republicans then why would any of you lot even care that Bush beat Gore (or whatever spin you want to put on it)? If you think American politics is homogeneous, fine; but then don't complain when the Republicans beat the Democrats--you can't have it both ways.
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The scope of discusson is so narrow. Take Vietnam, it was seen afterwards as a mistake by most americans I'm sure, and some saw it as a military failure. The most dark blue saw it as unwillingness to apply necessary force (drop the bomb..).
Not many saw it as a crime against humanity. No investigation was started to catch criminals of war. Generals who decided to bomb villages with napalm, or carpet bomb whole populated areas, had no fear of getting prosecuted. Actions like these were seen as mechanics of war.

At the same time, if an organisation like al qaeda decides to attack the pentagon, it is a terrorist attack. War can only be fought by US rules. And at that war the US is superior of course. Still the US government will not let the international law apply to us-soldiers.

The recent events, where North Korea denies to stop a program to get an operative nuclear bomb, because the US will not give them a non-aggression pact, is quite striking. If it is that important to prevent them from getting the bomb, why can the US not give them their non-aggression pact ? It's very easy, the US feels like it has to have it's hands free to invade where ever and whenever it fits them. Would you say this angle is well reported in the american press ?
I've seen all those angles in the American press (we call them spins). Whether or not they're "well covered" depends on your political viewpoint I guess.
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Unread 3 Sep 2003, 15:53   #27
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the problem with bush is that hes a complete retard who really seems to try to **** up this entire planet as much as possible, not that hes a republican.
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Unread 3 Sep 2003, 17:16   #28
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Originally posted by Tactitus
If both Republicans and Democrats are right-wing, then FOX media isn't an outlier at all--it's mainstream! FOX can hardly be responsible for turning (or trying to turn) the country to the right if it was solidly there to begin with.

And I touched on a related issue above. It's true that the political spectrum isn't as broad in the US, but if it were really true that Democrats = Republicans then why would any of you lot even care that Bush beat Gore (or whatever spin you want to put on it)? If you think American politics is homogeneous, fine; but then don't complain when the Republicans beat the Democrats--you can't have it both ways.
There are shades on the right-left political barometer. Fox is responsible for trying to turn the country further to the far-right.

In your country you have a very right-wing party and a somewhat less right-wing party. Even if the difference is marginal, of course we would rather have the lesser of the two evils.

Just as if the choice was between the KKK and the Republican party I would be rooting for the Republicans.
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Unread 4 Sep 2003, 08:51   #29
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Originally posted by Tactitus
And I touched on a related issue above. It's true that the political spectrum isn't as broad in the US, but if it were really true that Democrats = Republicans then why would any of you lot even care that Bush beat Gore (or whatever spin you want to put on it)?
Well, I've never complained about the Democrats not getting into power - I couldn't care less, and the Democrats are at least as bad as the Republicans. The Dems need to be destroyed for all manner of historical and current crimes. I probably would have begrudgingly voted Nader if I had been an American at the time.

But some "leftists" (for want of a better term) have criticised the elections not because Bush gained power but the manner which they alledge it took place. See Michael Moore et al. If you think the election was decided fraudulently then it doesn't matter who won - the process is still ripe for criticism. True, the criticism is going to be more forthcoming since they think it was some right wing plot.

Again, I'm not speaking for everyone and my viewpoint isn't typical, but the nub of the matter that most people's disatisfaction with American politics is not party political. If these forums still exist in some form when/if the Democrats regain the presidency, I'm sure you'll still see critical threads of the US.
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Unread 4 Sep 2003, 09:03   #30
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Originally posted by Tactitus
I doubt that, but even if it were true that would make this thread even sillier (if that's possible). If both Republicans and Democrats are right-wing, then FOX media isn't an outlier at all--it's mainstream! FOX can hardly be responsible for turning (or trying to turn) the country to the right if it was solidly there to begin with.

And I touched on a related issue above. It's true that the political spectrum isn't as broad in the US, but if it were really true that Democrats = Republicans then why would any of you lot even care that Bush beat Gore (or whatever spin you want to put on it)? If you think American politics is homogeneous, fine; but then don't complain when the Republicans beat the Democrats--you can't have it both ways.

I've seen all those angles in the American press (we call them spins). Whether or not they're "well covered" depends on your political viewpoint I guess.
-----
Fox is responsible for trying to keep up the illusion of choice, the illusion of democracy, where in fact you have a state ruled by those who get the biggest contributions from the rich. Fox has one thing in common with the republicans and the democrats, it is owned by the rich. While democrats might have slightly better policies for the internal affairs of the US, their foreign policy has been just as bad. I prefer Bush who is seen as what he is, to Clinton, who smiles and gets away with anything (and no I'm not thinking of little miss Lewinsky). Bombing a country's only medicine factory(it can produce bio-weapons only it doesn't.), and at the same time to be seen as liberal and peace-loving, quite an achievement....

Your point that you've seen the angles I mentioned is perfectly valid. However you've not seen them seriously discussed. Views outside the condoned views are presented, but only in small portions, and not as the screaming repeated propaganda, which is in fact on the "playlist" of all networks. It was obvious even over here, before the Iraq war, when the Bush administration just repeated itself over and over, kept on telling the same old lies, till eventually in the US they were believed. In europe people have a more free press, and did not fall for the trick of repetition, most countries had over 50% of the people against going to war.

People don't have time to read everything in every newspaper, or watch the news every day. So what they get is the headlines, over and over, and the headlines and main stories are what controls the average person and his views of issues taken up for discussion. That is why a press controlled by the rich, and heavily influenced by government think tanks, and in general, government propaganda, is dangerous. It can take the masses, and convince them that fighting Iraq for instance, is necessary, because Iraq was a threat to the free world.... LOL... Not a laughing matter anymore though.. Then when the reasons they gave for fighting, are found out as lies, the demonising of the enemy has worked so well, that people still support the illegal war.
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