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Unread 22 Oct 2011, 22:07   #101
Mzyxptlk
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

That makes no sense whatsoever.
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Unread 22 Oct 2011, 22:12   #102
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
That makes no sense whatsoever.
I meant as in why would you go what over half the universe is going??? surely the better strat would be to go what counters it best whilst maintaining a good roiding/teaming option - or CR as its better known
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Unread 22 Oct 2011, 23:40   #103
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

you people are a roll coaster. first fr sucks. then it's the best, then zik de is op and tehn it's to weak. yet stats haven't changed. i would say it's probably better to take the time actually study the stats. all races are easily roided(by different classes) and all races roid.

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
I have to ask Pat and Santa ... Is this honestly the best you can up with?
question)

Reminder they are single targeting. you have 8 ships and 6 classes. your going to have weak points and strengths.
i took the time to read your stats and i must say they are way to straight forward. bs/cr hitting only de. de only hitting cr/bs (besides etd fr hitting cr) cr hitting cr bs hittin bs (people hate that) etc. you just set simple rules. our stats are way more involved for a reason. Everyone would pick the same setup with your stats....
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Unread 22 Oct 2011, 23:41   #104
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

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i think Paisely the simpliest answer to your question is... if you dont like them then dont play them... see you in rd 45
Excellent Idea
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Unread 23 Oct 2011, 00:56   #105
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

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Reminder they are single targeting. you have 8 ships and 6 classes.
Where is the rule book does it say you have to have that? (I can recall a good few rounds where xan didnt have any CR/BS)

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your going to have weak points and strengths.
i took the time to read your stats and i must say they are way to straight forward. bs/cr hitting only de. de only hitting cr/bs (besides etd fr hitting cr) etc. you just set simple rules. our stats are way more involved for a reason. Everyone would pick the same setup with your stats....
Lets have a look at the Stats as per manual

Your roiding options are...
Single options
Xan fi (and hope for no ingal xan def for 0 loss revs + ingal cutters could be nasty but no 0 loss ally def options)
Cath Co (although it is all Emp it targets all defensive class ships subject to the amount of spider def)

Team up options [because solo options leave you open to 0 loss ally eta def]
Brackets = getting a 0 loss hit had it been a single attack instead of a team up.

Ter / Etd Fr... To avoid ally eta Nixies (ter) / Smugglers (etd) / pillagers (etd)
Xan / Zik De... To avoid ally eta Centaurs (xan) locusts (xan)
Ter / Cat Cr ... To avoid ally eta Chims (ter) Shadow (cath)
Zik / Etd Bs ... to avoid ally eta Buccaneer (zik) Brigand (zik) Bomber (etd)
Whilst it is possible for zik/etd to steal additional bs... would this realistically in any great amounts?
+ having spectres (init 3 cr class anti bs) stagnates bs attacks mid/end of the round. and would need multiple bs/cr combos ie Mantis present to get round the spectre.

so left with either fi/co soloing or fr/de/cr/bs combos left me with no feasible option but to wait for R45.

With regards to my suggestion of stats they are alot more open to attack other races and not restricted to hitting 1 or 2 races only

Out of my suggestion I am curious to what set up you would go for wether it would be fr, cr or bs ?
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Unread 23 Oct 2011, 03:22   #106
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

Something does need to be done about fr def on De attacking it means de have little chance to land.
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Unread 23 Oct 2011, 10:32   #107
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

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Something does need to be done about fr def on De attacking it means de have little chance to land.
So be inventive and send/fake Banshees with. -.-
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Unread 23 Oct 2011, 10:44   #108
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

So noone else finds the etd de a bit over-powered? I don't mind too much as etd isn't that popular as a race, but I still reckon etd is very powerful in the right hands this round.
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Unread 23 Oct 2011, 10:49   #109
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

Personally I don't think these stats look too bad. There aren't any obvious superior race and every race has some defence options for attack.

The weakest race is probably Terran imo
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Unread 23 Oct 2011, 12:31   #110
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

I agree with Isildrux on that one. Terran is a decent Etd FR support but stand alone its pretty crap and OMFG wyverns are AWFUL!!!

Everytime i have played with different setups on the bcalc i find new loopholes and opped ships and so on... i like this about the stats - that a lot is playable but that everything has a weak point... im hoping this willmake the fleet composition of the round quite mixed and not have every mindless zombie going FR or CR because both have quite meaty holes in them when you go indepth
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Unread 23 Oct 2011, 17:51   #111
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

These stats are good bar the overall weakness of de fleets. Xan efficiencies look a bit high to me as well but those would really be my only general criticisms, anything else realistically just being pedantry.
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Unread 23 Oct 2011, 22:01   #112
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

I tend to find these stats very messy, in that there are no clear winners, ever race has problems, some greater than others. I still would have preferred more attack oriented stats. I like stats where every race can hit every other race, but all in all these are not unbalanced, and not overly defensive, so in that sense are good stats.
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Unread 24 Oct 2011, 03:21   #113
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

Eff are not something pat nor i are happy with. Pat finished them at 5am and then in a pm with appoco the next day. they had a miscommunication and they were said to be final.
We were hoping to tweak during the beta testing. As that was normal what beta is for. However our requests to edit eff's have been turn down.

so you get what you get at this point sorry. Locust/cent eff where going to be droped. locust being about 60% eff avg and cent about 90% avg. Make zik/xan de playable.
Xan has to high of e/r (putting them as strong as harpy/cutlass) these little things would have been change and tweaked.

All stats need to be tweaked. you can an't finish eff and just play. sorry guys.

I'm not blaming pat nor appoco. just explaining why no changes to eff have been made.
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Unread 24 Oct 2011, 05:31   #114
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

If that is the case santa you need to force the issue with appoco
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Unread 24 Oct 2011, 07:37   #115
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

It would make a nice change for people to actually remember that there are no magical set of stats that are perfect and stop moaning like a 2 dollar whore
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Unread 24 Oct 2011, 09:38   #116
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

Yeah I agree Irish people know about this snitzle all believe in gzambo like I do and pa be great
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Unread 24 Oct 2011, 18:21   #117
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

gzambos point is completely true - in no stats are you going to like everything as everyone has different points or veiw and preferences on what should be strong and what should be weak

As far as im aware Santa was the only one that offered to make stats for rd 44 so we shoudl just be thankful we dont get another set of crappy Appoco stats

These stats overall are quite offensive in their setup and combined with ST round it should make for a lot of roid swapping

Im assuming most people who are whining about them are just annoyed they cant find some magic setup that rapes all and makes it easy for them - they are actually have to put some effort into their strategies for once
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Unread 25 Oct 2011, 17:38   #118
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

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Eff are not something pat nor i are happy with. Pat finished them at 5am and then in a pm with appoco the next day. they had a miscommunication and they were said to be final.

I wouldn't say that I'm "not happy" with these stats. Sure, there are some things I'd change here and there, but I could probably tweak them a hundred times and still not be satisfied. That said, I'd have liked it if Appoco had given us an extra day or two. There's seven weeks of warfare at stake, after all, so it'd be a minor inconvenience to avoid a (possible) big one.
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Unread 25 Oct 2011, 19:43   #119
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

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I wouldn't say that I'm "not happy" with these stats. Sure, there are some things I'd change here and there, but I could probably tweak them a hundred times and still not be satisfied. That said, I'd have liked it if Appoco had given us an extra day or two. There's seven weeks of warfare at stake, after all, so it'd be a minor inconvenience to avoid a (possible) big one.
Fair play to your honesty
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Unread 27 Oct 2011, 17:51   #120
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

looking at Misc page seems were in for another boring as fi/co round - JOY!!


Why is everyone so unoriginal???
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Unread 28 Oct 2011, 11:18   #121
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

You know Fi/co rounds are the most boring EVER!!!!! Especially in st when fr/de Doesnt beat fi/co.....

Thanks Appocomaster for ****ing up another round.
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Unread 28 Oct 2011, 11:35   #122
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

Not that I want to dissuade you from venting your righteous anger (you go girl!), but why are you beating on Appoco when it's clear there would not have been major changes even if he hadn't messed up?
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Unread 28 Oct 2011, 15:11   #123
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

Since people make their race choice based on the stats provided maybe you should blame the stat makers for being unoriginal as players can only work with what they are given
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Unread 28 Oct 2011, 20:50   #124
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

they were unfinished stats tho gzambo - santa and pat have both said that

Appoco decided they were done and finalised them - then wouldnt let santa and pat finish them properly when they asked him
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Unread 28 Oct 2011, 21:11   #125
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

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Since people make their race choice based on the stats provided maybe you should blame the stat makers for being unoriginal as players can only work with what they are given
Yes and no. I'm not trying to avoid taking responsibility here, if fi/co is too strong it's definitely my fault (JBG pointed out that Xan effs were too high). The thing is, disregarding all things, fi/co is the most favourable 'metaclass' in the game, with their low ETA. Add in the fact that they have EMP and you can just pile on more and more fi/co until you win the calc/wave/war. Defending with fr/de as an alliance just isn't an option anymore. The game has become less and less 'active' for it to be.

I think the game needs to change in that respect. Maybe give fi/co the advantage at first, but have research cancel the difference out later so that fi/co isn't as advantageous as it is currently.

All in all, I'm surprised that so many people go for xan/cat again. I thought I made fr/de anti-fi/co strong enough to stand against it. Let's hope I was right. If not, I'm the only one to blame.


PS. I'm going to start on a new set of stats (which would be next round's if Appoco approves) open and publicly soon. Hopefully we can avoid these kinds of things that way, by taking the time needed to balance things out.

Last edited by Patrikc; 28 Oct 2011 at 21:17.
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Unread 28 Oct 2011, 21:41   #126
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

i dont think fi/co is as wonderful as everyone seems to think but purely through numbers, it is going to be hard to cover, as 55% of incs look like they will be fi/co
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Unread 28 Oct 2011, 22:04   #127
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

I agree that fi/co "decaying" as the round progresses would probably be a good thing for PA. Ideally we'd get something that made fi/co more easily accessible, but deteriorating as the round goes on, cr/bs harder to reach, less efficient early on, but improving as the round goes on, and fr/de somewhere in between, either consistently mediocre or with a bell-curve shaped power-over-time graph.

The only reasonable way of doing it that I can think of is through upgrades. Every ship gets a number of possible upgrades that require a fairly large amount of time to research. Generally speaking, give fi/co few upgrades, but make their base relatively strong. On the other hand, give cr/bs a weak base, but give them lots of upgrades. It'd take a while for the cr/bs fleet to get going, but once it does, at about two thirds through the round, it'd beat fi/co handily.

That said, the current number of ships is already well above what I'd call acceptable for PA, especially when new sets of stats are created as often as they are. I should not have to deal with 50+ different ships, each with at least 6 interesting fields (say, name, class, targetting, type, effs). Introducing 1-3 upgrades for every ship would make that an even more intractable task. The introduction of upgrades would therefore require a return to sharing ships between races (possibly retaining a few unique ships for each race).

Additionally, the research tree is pretty packed as it is. This is slighly less problematic for bad players, as they don't hit the HCT 1000-1250-1500 stumbling block quite as early as good players. Introducing new research for upgrades would probably necessitate a change from "you only have one researcher and she only does one thing at a time" to a more realistic system in which it's more efficient to invest your RP into multiple concurrent researches, rather than switching between branches at the drop of a hat and pumping all your resources into that a single branch at a time, leaving all the others to wither for decades at a time. It's a little bit outside the scope of this post, so I won't go into detail on it, but the orginal Master of Orion does this brilliantly.

In any case, while I don't think these three suggestions are as massive a change to PA as they may seem, designing and implementing them is well outside the realm of possibilities for the current administration, underfunded and understaffed as they are. Did anyone replace Jagex with a scarecrow while I wasn't looking?


P.S. And if you noticed that I'm advocating making the ship stats much more closely tied to the game than they currently are and realised this would probably mean we would no longer see new stats every round, or even every second round, you win a cookie. If you agree, you win another cookie.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 28 Oct 2011 at 22:12.
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Unread 28 Oct 2011, 22:38   #128
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

Btw Pat, there doesnt HAVE to be fico cath pods.
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Unread 29 Oct 2011, 08:25   #129
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

I did say I'm not playing this round for a reason
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Unread 29 Oct 2011, 12:38   #130
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

bit late to the party but cat co empres is ridiculous.
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Unread 29 Oct 2011, 13:21   #131
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

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bit late to the party but cat co empres is ridiculous.

This links back to what pat and santa said about not getting to finish stats

just blame appoco
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Unread 30 Oct 2011, 14:38   #132
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Btw Pat, there doesnt HAVE to be fico cath pods.
or xan ones....
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Unread 30 Oct 2011, 14:48   #133
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

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bit late to the party but cat co empres is ridiculous.
"we want offensive stats!"
"omg why can cat co roid cat?!!"

hurr
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Unread 30 Oct 2011, 14:54   #134
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

good point pat. doesnt mean its not ridiculous. especially as the rest of the stats are very defensive, so meaning cat co has an even bigger advantage.
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Unread 24 Nov 2011, 12:21   #135
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

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PS. I'm going to start on a new set of stats (which would be next round's if Appoco approves) open and publicly soon. Hopefully we can avoid these kinds of things that way, by taking the time needed to balance things out.
is this happening pat?
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Unread 25 Nov 2011, 21:56   #136
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

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is this happening pat?
If I'm allowed to, yes. I'm more than willing to put in time, but only if it's not wasted effort.

Ps. How are you guys experiencing current stats? I haven't really paid any attention this round, judging from statistics though they're not too bad. (Xan a bit too strong, Ter a bit too weak)
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Unread 25 Nov 2011, 23:19   #137
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

De is a bit too strong because of the lack of Ter's in the uni. But the biggest problem with this round is the political situation. Around tick 300 or so there were planets that Looked Like this:
Syren 40,000 Wyvren 10,000
Leviathan 1,000


For that kind of planet to be allowed to exist says too much for the political situation in this round. With the gangbanging on Ult starting Very early from the top 2 alliances kinda sent this round into a stalemate for 200-300 ticks. Finally we may start seeing some top spot action, but could just be some hype.
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Unread 26 Nov 2011, 10:29   #138
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
If I'm allowed to, yes. I'm more than willing to put in time, but only if it's not wasted effort.

Ps. How are you guys experiencing current stats? I haven't really paid any attention this round, judging from statistics though they're not too bad. (Xan a bit too strong, Ter a bit too weak)

I do belive xan being a bit too strong yes - especially the fact that their FI fleet - being already low eta and cloaked, also got no ship of even eta that can arenīt empers or stealers (bee, thief) - having both xan/ter/zik with no eta matching def options is somewhat OP. - also xan E/R or well other races lack of it, - something seems wrong in my head when it takes less beetles to freeze harpies than phan/bansh.

Ofc. this is also outlined by that fact tat uni is xan heavy.


Rest seems ok, in general E/R seems a bit off compared to earlier rounds.
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Unread 26 Nov 2011, 10:31   #139
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

Oh yea and in general Iīm happy with the stats, I donīt belive them that defensive, and rather small teamups or even solo, works quite well.
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Unread 26 Nov 2011, 12:03   #140
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

Xan are probably the best race yes, but the main problem is that there are too few of their natural enemies(zik, ter).
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Unread 26 Nov 2011, 13:10   #141
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

Cant wait for MT stats!!!

Bring back the easy life!
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Unread 26 Nov 2011, 16:12   #142
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

My biggest complaint about these stats is that zik is a useless race for alliances, as a result alliances discouraged zik play, making the stats "unbalanced," because of the lack of ziks in the uni. Also etd are also fairly weak as BS fleets are really not viable given the spectre, and most terrans went CR limiting the FR teamup partners for etds.

Otherwise it's a decent set of stats, and a lot less defense oriented than I had feared.
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Unread 26 Nov 2011, 19:21   #143
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

Zik have three useful alliance def ships in the smuggler, corsair and pirate in my opinion.
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Unread 27 Nov 2011, 00:15   #144
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

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also xan E/R or well other races lack of it, - something seems wrong in my head when it takes less beetles to freeze harpies than phan/bansh.
Something I'd like to point out here is that while Beetles are more efficient against Harpies than Phantoms, Harpies are more expensive and therefore have more ERes. This means that when mixed together with other Fi (let's take Spiders as they're great vs Cat Co), Harpies will be much more resistant than Phantoms.
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Unread 27 Nov 2011, 11:28   #145
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

Im not seeing the greatness of Xan tbh... when i was playing this round they all seemed first choice on my list of targets. They looked weak in the stats aswell... i dunno maybe i dont read them right...

They seem to have a reasonable amount in the top 100 but they occupy the lower end of it mainly. Cat and Zik seems far more dominant in my eyes
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Unread 27 Nov 2011, 19:20   #146
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

Kaiba thats mainly because Zik>Xan and Zik can actually gain salavage even if they are a top planet because they can value steal xan fi and to some extent xan De. They also have a pretty strong solo attack fleet. But Xan were very strong early with using De fakes. As for Cath check the Value on most of the Caths in the top 100. You'll find that most of them are xp'd like mad. There are a few caths with value matching there score but not that many.
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Unread 27 Nov 2011, 19:46   #147
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Re: Round 44 stats thread

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Kaiba thats mainly because Zik>Xan and Zik can actually gain salavage even if they are a top planet because they can value steal xan fi and to some extent xan De. They also have a pretty strong solo attack fleet. But Xan were very strong early with using De fakes. As for Cath check the Value on most of the Caths in the top 100. You'll find that most of them are xp'd like mad. There are a few caths with value matching there score but not that many.
zik can valuesteal xan fi? would you mind telling me with what ship? I know thiefs valuesteal on xan fi, but those are etd ships. And with zik being unable to steal xan fi, and etd being unable to steal cath co. There are not many ziks and etd attacking with FI/CO, and thus little double steals. I even might go to the point of saying those who did have been shipfarming.
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