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Unread 27 Sep 2015, 14:47   #1
SantaCruz
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A better planned way to sort stats.

I was talking with Munkee today. He brought up the idea of having stats chosen before EOR. The players nick and their forum post given the community than. With Beta's running again during weekends.

I think this is a great idea. I do have something to add myself to it. I think stats should be chosen a round in advance. Use the 7 weeks of the round to test on speed game. Run stats in a havoc speed and you will find out what ships are over powered quickly. Every Saturday we can run a 3 hour speed.

Either way the system we use now sucks. We should all be focused on one set of stats. I would rather spend my time helping balance any set, than play a round of unbalanced stats.
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Unread 28 Sep 2015, 06:13   #2
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

Well Butcher already said your stats will get picked.
Let's just all go with that and spend our time balancing that one.
Even in the event that Butcher was wrong somehow, by focussing on your set we can make him right.

But yes, multiple potential sets = lots of potential wasted time, so I think a lot will wait with making the calcs untill something is picked.
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Unread 28 Sep 2015, 07:03   #3
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

Worst case at eorc we should have the name of the person who will take the lead on stats for the following round. We then know who to talk to and which stats to begin discussing or continuing to discuss further.
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Unread 28 Sep 2015, 09:43   #4
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
Even in the event that Butcher was wrong somehow
Impossible!
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Unread 2 Oct 2015, 16:50   #5
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

running stats in a fake round which also have different tick speed activity level, dedication and player base isn't a good way to balance stats.
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Unread 2 Oct 2015, 18:58   #6
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

I agree with Plaguuu. However, that doesn't detract from the fact that our method of selecting stats is chaotic at best, and that this has bitten us in the ass several times over the last 10 rounds, including last round.

To a large extent, the specific failings are not of interest. They are symptoms of a deeper problem, namely, the fact that redoing the ship stats every round is used as a stopgap for long-term development, which PA Team doesn't have time for. Hilariously, apparently PA Team hasn't got time any more for the stopgap either, and attempts to outsource it to someone in the community have (so far) failed. Unfortunately, you need someone to make the call, so let's accept the stopgap for now and move on.

So, that's step one. Put someone in charge. Even that is apparently easier said than done, but OK. Two people would also be fine, three is a crowd. Next, what should this person do?

I firmly believe in getting 3+ rough sets to choose from. These do not need to be developed all the way to perfection, we're talking broad strokes here. Whether a set is interesting or not does not depend on the exact effs. Classes, targetting, types, and inits is all you need, plus a paragraph or two on the author's vision. This is the hardest part, because no one knows exactly how to do it. Asking one person to make one set of stats from start to finish is a recipe for disaster, because half the time it'll come out bad. Thankfully, it takes fairly little time (days rather than weeks), so if your rough set isn't chosen, you haven't wasted a huge amount of time. Once a few sets have been posted, the stats manager should pick out one of them to be developed further, about 4 weeks before signups open. The sets that aren't chosen should be discarded.

Moving forward, Santa has provided us with an excellent blueprint of how to finalize stats, in my opinion. I haven't looked at the result, so I can't judge if he's been successful, but his method is solid. Kudos to that. The original author of the chosen stats should be the one to spearhead that effort, not the stats manager. Beta should be used only as a place to view the stats and run bcalcs. Lots and lots of bcalcs. Don't need ticks for that. Speedgame and Xmas are unnecessary when only one set is fine-tuned.

Finally, reuse. Once we have a good set, we should reuse it. Doesn't need to be during back-to-back rounds, but with only minor balance tweaks, 2 sets can last for at least 4 rounds: A-B-A-B.

So that's it: put someone in charge to choose 1 from 3+ rough sets, fine-tune that 1 set, reuse.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

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Unread 2 Oct 2015, 21:39   #7
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

I agree with almost every thing said here. We should have the PERSON selected for the stats AT EorC of the previous round. The stats do no not neccisarrily have to be finished by then but have the maker in the bag.

As for the method of that selection, I am up in the air. We have about 15 people that actively post on this forum and another 30 or so that comment outside the forums. I would guess about 50 people are involved in the stat creation process. That is about 10% of the active player base. Since the PA team has no real interest in helping us solve this, no shocker, then i think it should come to a vote. We have enough people from many alliances and play styles that i think we can get a decent enough vote and have enough representation that it will be a good statistical model of what the community(700ish) want.
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Unread 2 Oct 2015, 21:57   #8
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

Has anyone thought about just refining the stats from the previous round.

Say two rounds per stats, with the second being tweaked/balanced?
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Unread 2 Oct 2015, 22:34   #9
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

The quicker that last rounds stats are put in the trash can the better
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Unread 2 Oct 2015, 22:36   #10
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

That was Mzy's Idea and I Like it. That way we can use the previous round to find out what specific things didnt work and make the changes needed to balance out the races. Changes would be limited, but overall would make the set better.
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Unread 2 Oct 2015, 23:00   #11
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

I've always liked the idea of running stats more then once. Having them reused sooner than later, that's awesome. When they are still fresh enough we can edit them correctly.

It's not just stats that effect our round. Politics and alliances are always different. Good stats don't have to be. Strategy is always a major player in the round. So no need to worry about it getting boring playing same stats twice.
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Unread 2 Oct 2015, 23:32   #12
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

The few times we've re-used stats the t100 wasnt even close to the same ratios. The stats have a small impact on what alliance do. They may influence how some alliances play but for the most part if we see the same stats for 2-3 rounds back to back we'll see a drastic change in t100 every time.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 00:55   #13
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

The idea to re-use stats with minimum changes is good. And can be applied if new stats are a failure.

I agree that Santa before he started, thought of a method to make his set. Either good or bad, he followed a direction which is good. Added to that he is putting many hours is his set. The downside of it is that to be fair, someone should understand his method and put a good amount of time to criticize.

Imho the worst scenario is when there are many sets. From start the statsmaker should be the constant, so everyone's effort could be placed in one set only.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 01:55   #14
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

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Originally Posted by fortran View Post
Imho the worst scenario is when there are many sets. From start the statsmaker should be the constant, so everyone's effort could be placed in one set only.

I fully agree, part of the problems we've had the past 4 rounds there have just been TOO many sets of stats up at one time. We really just need to keep the stats made available to the public to 1. The only benefit of having the in game access is ability to calc with emp and e/r. Everything else can be calced outside of a server. Eff's are easily interpreted with out the use of a bcalc. If you think you need a bcalc to test a set of stats then your doing it wrong.


As much as Santa and I disagree on things stats is not one of them. He has helped me make at least 2 of my sets and has been in counsel with people that, I think, are trusted members of this community and not politically driven. Which can not be said of most of the "proposed" stats makers in the past 4 rounds.

We have a set of stats in the works, we have a stats maker, why can't we get official word from PA team about who is being chosen or even just a set of stats. We have 2 weeks to get this shit figured out. The sooner the stats are final, locked in ; the sooner alliance can start scheming their strats and we can move on.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 07:05   #15
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

Last time we reused a set, allowing the creater to modify it, all ended in tears.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 08:14   #16
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

Please, don't provide specifics.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 09:00   #17
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Please, don't provide specifics.
Well i dont think the same guy should be more than one chance to make a set if their previous attempt was a "failure".
There has been numerous sets suggested the last few rounds, that they went with a set wich have been getting that much negative feedback after the round says it all for me.
A big part of the posters in here keep supporting sets wich the community gives bad feedback on, time and time again.


If we want to rerun sets, wich im heavily in favour of, i suggest people dont pick their own sets if they intend to modify it.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 10:37   #18
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Well i dont think the same guy should be more than one chance to make a set if their previous attempt was a "failure".
There has been numerous sets suggested the last few rounds, that they went with a set wich have been getting that much negative feedback after the round says it all for me.
A big part of the posters in here keep supporting sets wich the community gives bad feedback on, time and time again.


If we want to rerun sets, wich im heavily in favour of, i suggest people dont pick their own sets if they intend to modify it.
Who's stats are you referring to?
Which round were they originally created?
Which round were they reused?
Why did they fail?
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 14:48   #19
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Last time we reused a set, allowing the creater to modify it, all ended in tears.
The last time we reused a set, i believe it was IsiliX(hope i typed that correctly been away since i've seen him to remember 100%) set. I can't recall it going wrong.
I just looked at beta for 15min trying to match stats. it's a bit harder then you would think lol

I cant even remember it ever going "wrong". Or how it could even go wrong.... you dont reuse a stat that sucked. You reuse the good ones.

Stats mafia must have brainwashed me into forgetting.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 15:21   #20
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

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Originally Posted by Veil05 View Post
Who's stats are you referring to?
Which round were they originally created?
Which round were they reused?
Why did they fail?
http://beta.planetarion.com/history/...?id=6&round=60
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 15:26   #21
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
The last time we reused a set, i believe it was IsiliX(hope i typed that correctly been away since i've seen him to remember 100%) set. I can't recall it going wrong.
I just looked at beta for 15min trying to match stats. it's a bit harder then you would think lol

I cant even remember it ever going "wrong". Or how it could even go wrong.... you dont reuse a stat that sucked. You reuse the good ones.

Stats mafia must have brainwashed me into forgetting.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 17:43   #22
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
He is refering to R56 and R60.

They both had alliance wins of over 30m score however the t10 breakdown is VERY different.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 17:59   #23
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
He is refering to R56 and R60.

They both had alliance wins of over 30m score however the t10 breakdown is VERY different.
Well its quite obviously when you nerph the only good thing vs the "go-to-option" in R56s set.
Its prolly a very decent set of stats in terms of what a lot of people think in here makes a good set, but if people hated R63s set, they couldnt have played R60.

The changes was basicly.

R56 Wyvern T1/T2 FR/DE - R60 T1/T2 DE/FR.
R60 Spider T2 removed(R56 was CO).
R60 removed cat Weaver(DE T1 CO)
R60 cat Scarab T1 FR now NORMAL fireing AFTER all FR instead of EMP
R56 Defender T1/T2 FR/DE - R60 T1/T2 DE/FR.

R60 xan A/C buffed
R60 etd A/C buffed

and dont be mistaken, xan/etd wasnt weak in R56, 18% and 26% respectively of the top100.
zik/ter had only 25% of the top100 combined
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 20:26   #24
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

The changes were made to counter act the huge % of Cath in r56. I believe 6 of t10 was cath. However I do think the changes were too excessive. I would like to see maybe 1 or 2 changes to a set of stats, only changing things that were "abused" Instead of changing an entire race and 3-4 other changes. I bet if we take any set of stats run it EXACTLY how it is we'll get different results then we take the same set, and change 1 or 2 ships we'll get a completely different result.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 20:39   #25
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

You cant compare that to us learning to properly edit stats. The more we get used to it, the better it will go. Its impossible to tell the future. What all alliances will go let alone weather the stats are going to be 100%. At some point you have to just close your eyes and walk away. Hope for the best.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 20:43   #26
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
The changes were made to counter act the huge % of Cath in r56. I believe 6 of t10 was cath. However I do think the changes were too excessive. I would like to see maybe 1 or 2 changes to a set of stats, only changing things that were "abused" Instead of changing an entire race and 3-4 other changes. I bet if we take any set of stats run it EXACTLY how it is we'll get different results then we take the same set, and change 1 or 2 ships we'll get a completely different result.
Well my whole point that letting him edit it in the first place was a big error.
If he got it wrong r56, what was suggesting he would get it right the next roumd?
If ETD/XAN FR was overrepresnted R60, wouldnt it be best to start making TER/ZIK stronger? Ofc the stats mafia was behind R56s stats.
Im all for reusing old stats, but having the same guy edit it is less likely to make it better in many cases.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 22:31   #27
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

that doesn't even make sense. The only person that will ever know a set of stats the best is the maker. If anything you should suggest they are assigned a helper to work closely with them.

Your kidding yourself if you think you could ever edit someone elses stats. You can make suggestions but you will never grasp what they started. It wouldn't work any smoother.

As for implying that it was done that way because ultores had a 82% fleet recall on them. How about giving Agar3s and whoever else stayed up all those nights to DC. It could have been just plain hard work that was 82% recall.
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Unread 3 Oct 2015, 22:55   #28
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

So, the original post was about us having two stats sets running concurrently - current ones in real game and future planned set in a speed game/beta. Could this happen?
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Unread 4 Oct 2015, 02:40   #29
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

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Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
that doesn't even make sense. The only person that will ever know a set of stats the best is the maker. If anything you should suggest they are assigned a helper to work closely with them.

Your kidding yourself if you think you could ever edit someone elses stats. You can make suggestions but you will never grasp what they started. It wouldn't work any smoother.

As for implying that it was done that way because ultores had a 82% fleet recall on them. How about giving Agar3s and whoever else stayed up all those nights to DC. It could have been just plain hard work that was 82% recall.
People are just to proud to accept their own weaknesses.
That you, and Blue_Esper think that the set was good should be a major warning to everyone letting you two ever getting near making stats again.
Thats atleast the first impression i get on peoples ability to make new sets, if they like something i think badly failed, they could make the same mistakes again. Though Thats just my subjective view of it.
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Unread 4 Oct 2015, 04:04   #30
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

human error bud. almost every post you make on here is full of them. don't expect people to be prefect. you just keep worrying about yourself and not the mistakes i make. i will deal with those myself. thanks
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Unread 4 Oct 2015, 08:26   #31
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

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Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
that doesn't even make sense. The only person that will ever know a set of stats the best is the maker. If anything you should suggest they are assigned a helper to work closely with them.

Your kidding yourself if you think you could ever edit someone elses stats. You can make suggestions but you will never grasp what they started. It wouldn't work any smoother.
I disagree. When you're modifying an existing set of stats for reuse, you're looking at which fleet combos proved too strong/weak during the previous time they were used, and nerfing/buffing them slightly. 90% of this is done in Effs. Changing or circumventing the deep underlying vision the original author had about the stats should definitely not be on the table.

In any case, even if it were, the vision is basically the stats maker's expectation of how the stats will play out. This is good against that, but weak against this, that sort of thing. When you've played a round, you don't need the vision any more, because you know how they played out.

That isn't to say the stats maker doesn't have a role to play. It's always good to get feedback from other people when you're making stats, especially when they take the time to analyze the stats themselves. The original author fits that description by definition.
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Unread 4 Oct 2015, 08:41   #32
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

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Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
human error bud. almost every post you make on here is full of them. don't expect people to be prefect. you just keep worrying about yourself and not the mistakes i make. i will deal with those myself. thanks
Well having opinions on wether something worked out well or not is a human error. If someone went out there praising Tias stats this round, im sure a few people would be sceptical to let him do stats for next round, regardless of how they turn out in the end
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Unread 4 Oct 2015, 15:21   #33
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Well having opinions on wether something worked out well or not is a human error. If someone went out there praising Tias stats this round, im sure a few people would be sceptical to let him do stats for next round, regardless of how they turn out in the end
tia really only screwed up a few ships. plus it's just opinions like you said. so there is no reason to continue to talk about this.

i've done stats before and none of them failed hard. worst set was the 3 pod set like 12 rounds ago that everyone went 4 races in. All because of two ships.
anyways this is a point topic.
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Unread 9 Oct 2015, 22:16   #34
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

Well balanced stats might leave the choices of race, tactics etc., more up to individuals or BPs. It seems to me at the moment that the same HCs who are effective at a speedy analysis, and want to steer the members of their Alliance in their chosen direction, are too big a part of the game. Please facilitate variety in the way players take part, and provide more choice and thereby heighten interest.
But all in all I would go with Santa's main point that having stats known earlier & fully tested would be helpful.

Slainte.

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Unread 10 Oct 2015, 23:54   #35
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

This round is a prefect example of why we want change. Stats aren't chosen by the community they are forced upon us. Doesn't matter if we get a group of people to do stats. I did that this round. I involved many people that impact our game.

In the end it came down to how one person feels and who whined in his pm. Even if we could come up with a system that works. Appoco would have to be willing to give up having the final say. Which i doubt highly this will happen.

[05:45pm] [Appocomaster] I want to come up with an auto basic validator thing too
[05:46pm] [SantaCruz] whats an auto baisc validator? lol
[05:47pm] [Appocomaster] it runs through stats and poitns out things I have issues with
[05:47pm] [SantaCruz] no offence but, if you aren't doing the stats. issues you have with them etc. that should be the communities choice
[05:47pm] [SantaCruz] like the sk thing. i went with your choice. however every hc i talked to wanted them
[05:48pm] [SantaCruz] whos to say that your issues aren't just your issues?
[05:48pm] [Appocomaster] yep true

It comes down to how he feels about them. Only him. The best way to get your stats played or not right now it sucking up or whining about ones being made (aka tia and butchers role this round)

This has to become a PA communities role. Not someone that doesn't even play the game. They doesn't have to send def at 1am or even send one attack fleet.

We play this game. It should be our choice. Pa is dying and we keep complaining that nothing is being done. We have no control over even playing the stats we want. Why would we ever have a say in the future of this game.

This rounds stats were awful the last time they were played. I was Ter DE. My whole ally wasn't hit all round. When we were. We got rapped silly. Only reason there was ter in top 20 was faceless. AKA POLITICS. Nothing to do with stats. So race statistics are bullshit way to say weather the stats were balanced or not.

Please don't think I dislike Appoco because I do not. I want to make that clear. I'm not here to bash him. I'm trying to move PA forward. He has done so much for us and is why we are still able to play this game today. I will not forget that. I have the most respect for him. I'm just trying to say he is only one person. Not everyone always agrees. Which is why it would be better to have more then one person making the final choice... I hope that clears things up. Appoco <3 always.
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Unread 11 Oct 2015, 18:17   #36
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

Not real impressed with how this all turned out.

It's always good to see people step up and bring a set of stats to the table, even BB

I thought Santa's stats were pretty good; I don't really care for this modified re-run set we're being given now.
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Unread 11 Oct 2015, 19:00   #37
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Re: A better planned way to sort stats.

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Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
This round is a prefect example of why we want change. Stats aren't chosen by the community they are forced upon us. Doesn't matter if we get a group of people to do stats. I did that this round. I involved many people that impact our game.

In the end it came down to how one person feels and who whined in his pm. Even if we could come up with a system that works. Appoco would have to be willing to give up having the final say. Which i doubt highly this will happen.

[05:45pm] [Appocomaster] I want to come up with an auto basic validator thing too
[05:46pm] [SantaCruz] whats an auto baisc validator? lol
[05:47pm] [Appocomaster] it runs through stats and poitns out things I have issues with
[05:47pm] [SantaCruz] no offence but, if you aren't doing the stats. issues you have with them etc. that should be the communities choice
[05:47pm] [SantaCruz] like the sk thing. i went with your choice. however every hc i talked to wanted them
[05:48pm] [SantaCruz] whos to say that your issues aren't just your issues?
[05:48pm] [Appocomaster] yep true

It comes down to how he feels about them. Only him. The best way to get your stats played or not right now it sucking up or whining about ones being made (aka tia and butchers role this round)

This has to become a PA communities role. Not someone that doesn't even play the game. They doesn't have to send def at 1am or even send one attack fleet.

We play this game. It should be our choice. Pa is dying and we keep complaining that nothing is being done. We have no control over even playing the stats we want. Why would we ever have a say in the future of this game.

This rounds stats were awful the last time they were played. I was Ter DE. My whole ally wasn't hit all round. When we were. We got rapped silly. Only reason there was ter in top 20 was faceless. AKA POLITICS. Nothing to do with stats. So race statistics are bullshit way to say weather the stats were balanced or not.

Please don't think I dislike Appoco because I do not. I want to make that clear. I'm not here to bash him. I'm trying to move PA forward. He has done so much for us and is why we are still able to play this game today. I will not forget that. I have the most respect for him. I'm just trying to say he is only one person. Not everyone always agrees. Which is why it would be better to have more then one person making the final choice... I hope that clears things up. Appoco <3 always.
I love the way you keep giving me these imaginary magical abilites.
Your statset was unbalanced, you should spend more time trying to understand this than you are currently spending on being a cry-baby.
I dont fault your efforts for going around sucking c*ck to have your ways, wich you are well known for, but understand this is not a political campaign.
If you have been paying attention the last 5-6 rounds in here, you wouldve noticed that 75% of the stats proposed has been disgarded, often due to the stats mafia being overly negative of them.
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