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Unread 1 Nov 2018, 14:22   #1
wades209
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fleet access.

This is my first round back in an few years and have been playing solo.

Why was the feature to allow a alliance to launch a defence fleet of an ally member added?

Does that not go against the game and might as well allow for people to have multiple accounts?

It makes the game almost impossible to play as a solo or more casual player as defence is always available and you don't need to manage your own planet to get it.

Seems to me that the biggest alliances are the ones that benefit this and is just another reason to put off new and casual players.

I understand this is a team game and those that are in alliances should be able to hold more roids and land/def more but this new feature to me seems really against what the game is about.

I think this option should be removed. Does anyone agree or have a reason why this is good for the game?
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Unread 1 Nov 2018, 22:05   #2
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Re: fleet access.

The reality is that this is a team game; the vast majority of people play in alliances, but dont want to be awake at 4 am launching defence. The argument for ally fleets was - prelaunch allows a launch of attacks while asleep, so defence should be able to be launched while asleep too.

Ally fleets does not benefit the big alliances, it benefits the middle ones; the top allies had players who would launch when rung on a mobile, and they still do because there comes a time in a round that an alliance competing for the top needs to three fleet defend and ally fleets only do one. Therefore those alliances with significant numbers of members, but not night owls or ultra actives gets the benefit of limited night defence, without the very top alliances' advantage being removed.

Also you cannot launch all your ally fleets - there is a set number of launches allowed per day. This number does not change with the size of an alliance therefore a smaller alliance can launch all its members ally fleets, but a full tag can't.

In short ally fleets levels the playing field between alliances to an extent. Yes it is the case that by raising the defensive ability of a small alliance it makes solo play very difficult but pa has never been about solo play.
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Unread 2 Nov 2018, 08:55   #3
wades209
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Re: fleet access.

I don’t buy that answer that this is always a team game. Yes I agree that it should be alliances and working together should win overall but a few individuals launching def for the majority is not a team game. That is just blocking the game to anyone else that is not high in an alliance.

The game should be more about attacking and less about just making some invulnerable as you have 60 def fleets to just send.

The game used to be more about launching and landing attacks and roids did pass around but it was accessible to everyone. If people wanted to defend at 3 in the morning then fair play to them but at least it was a more level playing field. I’ve actually seen at least two planets that are solely building a one ship def fleet and no pods. This is a symptom of this system as you can then just have Defense farms.

This game will never grow with this setup. I really enjoyed the game what was there and understood I couldn’t win but could have fun playing solo. Now I’m just thinking the game is setup to appease the long standing players and not making it accessible or fun for others. Surely it’s boring for the remaining ally players that are just told were to attack and then have there fleets sent out on def. might as well just play with bots.

Putting this on top of massive rewards for just achieveing collecting roids and gain xp (which should be bonus enough) this game has become so defensive.

I really want to keep playing this game but if it keeps with the anti attacking and unbalanced approach then I think I will give it up.
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Unread 2 Nov 2018, 09:41   #4
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Re: fleet access.

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Originally Posted by wades209 View Post
Iíve actually seen at least two planets that are solely building a one ship def fleet and no pods. This is a symptom of this system as you can then just have Defense farms.
defplanets are not a result of this system and were around long before this system was. I'd sooner blame this on the fact only 40 out of 60 planets count toward ally score.
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Unread 2 Nov 2018, 12:08   #5
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Re: fleet access.

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Originally Posted by Influence View Post
defplanets are not a result of this system and were around long before this system was. I'd sooner blame this on the fact only 40 out of 60 planets count toward ally score.
The amount of inactive def planets is a result of this system. There was no inactive def planets before the alliance fleet, and it was not a result of the tag limits being dropped(this happend before the introduction the alliance defence fleet).
Changing the counting factor has good arguments itself, but it certainly will not do much to these planets that only sign up to login 2-3 times aweek.

I think removing the alliance defence fleet and the "hidden" attack prelaunch option for a round just to watch the effect could be a good idea.
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Unread 2 Nov 2018, 18:10   #6
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Re: fleet access.

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Originally Posted by bloodybutcher View Post
i think removing the alliance defence fleet and the "hidden" attack prelaunch option for a round just to watch the effect could be a good idea.
+1
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Unread 2 Nov 2018, 19:29   #7
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Re: fleet access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
I think removing the alliance defence fleet and the "hidden" attack prelaunch option for a round just to watch the effect could be a good idea.
Removing ally fleets would allow a return to the sort of multi target stats that wouldnt be dreamed of today, simply because the amount of defence sent would plunge so landed attacks would rise (assuming prelaunch remained).
Of course prelaunch existed long long before alliance fleets and I always argued against it as prejudicing attack over defence.
Im not sure there is any point in engaging on the issue of removing prelaunch as Im totally sure it would never happen. Nevertheless it would move attack times either backward to around midnight/1am or foreward to 7am. There is nothing wrong with this except the outcry that would happen over whichever alliance (DLR?) mustered a majority of non-europe time zone players allowing regular launching at what would then be the 'old' time of 3/4am.
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Unread 2 Nov 2018, 22:44   #8
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Re: fleet access.

I've proposed the removal of attack prelaunch and alliance fleets before, but in all honestly, it kind of scares me. Not saying it's a bad idea, but it's a change that's almost on the kind of scale that either revives PA for another half a decade... or kills it for good. Changes like, "remoev XP", "lower the tag limit to 30" or "raise the tag limit to 100". It's not quite at that level, but it's pretty close.
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Unread 2 Nov 2018, 23:20   #9
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Re: fleet access.

I don’t think removing attack pre launch is needed. It has always been part of the game and landing more attacks for everyone would make the game more exciting rather than just hoarding roids to build value as quickly as possible.

Simple fixes in my view are...

Remove ally def fleets. (You must launch your own fleets or its basically having multiple accounts)

Reduce the excessive bonus’ for doing things which already have great benefits. Such as gain loads of res for having 800 roids etc. It’s like a double reward which once again just means rushing just to stay ahead of the game and rewarding those already doing well.

I think these two changes would balance the game much more and those beat ally’s would still win but it means the game is more enjoyable for the rest. Without these changes I think the game will just die off.
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Unread 3 Nov 2018, 15:27   #10
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Re: fleet access.

It would be good to get one or more of the game developers to comment on this. I feel quite robbed from upgrading at the moment as the game is so defensive it is not fun. I won’t be upgrading or even playing again under this system.
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Unread 3 Nov 2018, 21:49   #11
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Re: fleet access.

It really doesn't help that all full tags has at least 20 "Fodder/defence/suicide/multi" planets available.

You keep saying altering tag sizes is a bad thing Mzy...
But here we are several years later with no change on the subject and the game is still at a stand still. While several other multiplayer online games have lower alliance/clan limits. And way bigger playerbases!

Devs keep making changes that encourages bad play/exploit.
And support is subpar at best.

Try one or two rounds with 35/40 or something like that... Remove alliance fleets if wanted on top.
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Unread 3 Nov 2018, 23:13   #12
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Re: fleet access.

It comes down to having selective few who makes enough effort to run a tag properly.

Cant complain about the alliance tools, but improving them allows more people to be able to run tags or gather together.

Game gains extra players if theres a reason to push for them. Those can be some easy pray for the smaller tags too. Most of them arent too dedicated.
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Unread 4 Nov 2018, 03:09   #13
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Re: fleet access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ave View Post
It comes down to having selective few who makes enough effort to run a tag properly.

Cant complain about the alliance tools, but improving them allows more people to be able to run tags or gather together.

Game gains extra players if theres a reason to push for them. Those can be some easy pray for the smaller tags too. Most of them arent too dedicated.
I don't care if you run Carnage and Carn, but heres my issue with the current scenario.
Carnage full tag 60 planets, Carn at 18 planets. This means you have 2 tags playing with 38 planets completly able to go full kamikaze/def/support whatever, without any consequence what so ever on your score.

However if tag limit was 35/40 and you still run Carnage and Carn
you will have TWO competitive tags that still plays towards the same goals.
But you can't just do lemming runs all the time anymore.

Last edited by TheoDD; 4 Nov 2018 at 03:24.
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Unread 4 Nov 2018, 06:08   #14
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Re: fleet access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
I don't care if you run Carnage and Carn, but heres my issue with the current scenario.
Carnage full tag 60 planets, Carn at 18 planets. This means you have 2 tags playing with 38 planets completly able to go full kamikaze/def/support whatever, without any consequence what so ever on your score.

However if tag limit was 35/40 and you still run Carnage and Carn
you will have TWO competitive tags that still plays towards the same goals.
But you can't just do lemming runs all the time anymore.
So instead of 38 planets able to go kamikaze, you want to open up for 45 planets going kamikaze?
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Unread 4 Nov 2018, 06:17   #15
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Re: fleet access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
I don't care if you run Carnage and Carn, but heres my issue with the current scenario.
Carnage full tag 60 planets, Carn at 18 planets. This means you have 2 tags playing with 38 planets completly able to go full kamikaze/def/support whatever, without any consequence what so ever on your score.

However if tag limit was 35/40 and you still run Carnage and Carn
you will have TWO competitive tags that still plays towards the same goals.
But you can't just do lemming runs all the time anymore.
A fair point, I dont recruit anyone to be support planets tho, unless they self want to. Only do real players.
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Unread 4 Nov 2018, 08:26   #16
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Re: fleet access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
So instead of 38 planets able to go kamikaze, you want to open up for 45 planets going kamikaze?
My conclusion actually gives Ave two alliances with 70 counting members total of 78 players, divided over 2 tags. This leaves room for 8 - 10! scanners.
And who says scanners can't do well on top, we've had rounds where a scanner have won.
Still confused?
Both ingame tags have real fighting chanse to reach 1st and 2nd, but with the current system in play Carn will never be close unless Carn fills up aswell giving them 120 players divided over two tags. (our awesome political leaders push the game further in this direction every round.)
With unbalanced block wars after unbalanced block wars, just because being 120 vs 60 is simply not enough fire power for some.
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Unread 4 Nov 2018, 15:44   #17
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Re: fleet access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
You keep saying altering tag sizes is a bad thing Mzy...
You missed my point: big changes are dangerous, especially when a game is on the edge of death already. Tag size changes were just an example, and I specifically included both raising and lowering it in an attempt to avoid getting jumped by whichever side I didn't mention.
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Unread 4 Nov 2018, 20:11   #18
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Re: fleet access.

Seems to me there are many that are not 100% happy with how it is now. I think if the fleet def option for ally’s was removed and ally sizes reduced it would create more competitiveness and more of a challenge. Attacking should be the main source of this game and tactically the biggest part of winning. At the moment the game is too defensive which sucks the full out for the majority of players.

The game should be able to be played solo and with an alliance. The bonus of having alliance should be enough rather than effectively given them an extra tool over solos and small alliances. The numbers for defence should already be there.

Secondly, remove the bonus’ for having roids and building size as this is as having the roids is already bonus enough. Also remove bonus for building distorters as why should you be rewarded for that it makes no sense. Amps and scans make sense as they balance things for scanners and solos so they can still semi keep up. I’m already done with reaserach really and we are not even half way through. I think that should be addressed to make the game more tactical. Maybe remove some of the bonus research points. I understand this is for guidance but the rewards seem excessive and full tilt things in the favour of experienced and early starters.

I’m sure most people would be happier and more engaged if there were more roiding and less countless days of recalling ships. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Simple changes here can make a big difference. I’ve been a big fan of PA and want to to succeed. But currently it’s on the wrong track. People need to have fun to stay with the game.

Last edited by wades209; 4 Nov 2018 at 21:07.
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Unread 5 Nov 2018, 09:33   #19
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Re: fleet access.

I reread my previous post, and it's too negative. Rather than "dangerous", read "risky", and keep in mind that all great advances carried with them a degree of risk. That risk is not a reason never to attempt advances/improvements, but we make a rational decision whether to proceed or not by keeping in mind they do exist, rather than pretend they don't exist and proceeding in ignorance.

It's the difference between the Wright brothers believing they could fly and the dozens of loonies throwing themselves off cliffs believing they could fly. Be like the Wright brothers.
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Unread 5 Nov 2018, 09:46   #20
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Re: fleet access.

Ok cool mzy.

Do you have any comments on whether my proposed changes would work or benefit the game?
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Unread 5 Nov 2018, 17:50   #21
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Re: fleet access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wades209 View Post
Seems to me there are many that are not 100% happy with how it is now. I think if the fleet def option for allyís was removed and ally sizes reduced it would create more competitiveness and more of a challenge. Attacking should be the main source of this game and tactically the biggest part of winning. At the moment the game is too defensive which sucks the full out for the majority of players.

The game should be able to be played solo and with an alliance. The bonus of having alliance should be enough rather than effectively given them an extra tool over solos and small alliances. The numbers for defence should already be there.

Secondly, remove the bonusí for having roids and building size as this is as having the roids is already bonus enough. Also remove bonus for building distorters as why should you be rewarded for that it makes no sense. Amps and scans make sense as they balance things for scanners and solos so they can still semi keep up. Iím already done with reaserach really and we are not even half way through. I think that should be addressed to make the game more tactical. Maybe remove some of the bonus research points. I understand this is for guidance but the rewards seem excessive and full tilt things in the favour of experienced and early starters.

Iím sure most people would be happier and more engaged if there were more roiding and less countless days of recalling ships. Please correct me if Iím wrong. Simple changes here can make a big difference. Iíve been a big fan of PA and want to to succeed. But currently itís on the wrong track. People need to have fun to stay with the game.
I don't agree that attacking should be the main source of this game. Playing together and covering incs is a lot more challenging and engaging. It requires teamplay and cooperation. Not saying attacking doesn't require some cooperation, but be honest here: "Find target with low anti x. Get 2-5 teamups. Set Up prelaunch. Calc at eta 4"

The problem now is that attacking has a major advantage over defending. Prelaunch. We should get rid of it. It breaks the balance in the game and is the sole reason why people get fed up with defense. Attacking and Defending should be done live. Spread out the incs/def over the entire day rather then giving attackers multiple hours of planning time and then a setup that will auto-launch their fleet 6hours later.

This way defense won't have such a big toll on players as they can actually engage in it on their time rather then on some random hour. Maybe we'll even see a bunch of people dc'ing again and actually engaging in the game because now they'll be able to cover stuff when they are actually able to play.

Disclaimer: I realise old school pa also had night launches. This required effort from both attackers and defenders tough. I also remember that the last rounds before we got this prelaunch-**** actual tp's and LT's had already switched to 6-8 game time rather then what he have now.

The second part of your post wasn't clear. are you talking about the quest-rewards? If so: I agree, they removed a lot of the tactics.
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Unread 6 Nov 2018, 13:41   #22
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Re: fleet access.

Could agree more that’s my point. Defending together should be a main objective but by each person being involved. Having a fleet available for anyone to use is not a community or playing together. I get your point on pre launch and if this is peoples argument I would be happy to see that go.

Defence should always be possible but at the moment it is near impossible to land anything on a top 300+ without multiple fleets and multiple waves. There is. Sry little fun if most people can’t land an attack 95% of the time. It never used to be like that.

Plus really need to remove the planets that are def farms. Completely against the community game you mentioned above.

Yes on the quests you are correct. I think it needs massively reducing or changing to stop rewarding just doing well. All it does is massively increase the gap between the big and the small and the fast players vs new/ slower players. Rewards for building distorters as an example makes no sense to me either. Why reward a game tactic. The tactic enough should be the reward.
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Unread 7 Nov 2018, 00:27   #23
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Re: fleet access.

It adds little tactics to the build plan after the research/construction tricks went under the startup bonus. I agree on the points that reward the snowball effects of landing golden etc. should rather support activity and teamplay. They are not horrible in no way, but theres less bonuses of the defensive play, like adding bcalcs, sending defence, alliance points, etc. killing crashers.

I would rather kill pre-launch than af also. Majority has work and families now days and have less interest to be online to catch the pre-launched midnight inc. Anything u lose on offensive end can be balanced via stats or simiar.

The only reason this game is still alive are the community aspects. Definately one dimension to improve and support.
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Unread 7 Nov 2018, 06:29   #24
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Re: fleet access.

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Originally Posted by Ave View Post
I would rather kill pre-launch than af also. Majority has work and families now days and have less interest to be online to catch the pre-launched midnight inc. Anything u lose on offensive end can be balanced via stats or simiar.
I can't tell when the last time we've had balanced stats. And NO, balanced stats does NOT make up for AF or prelaunch, or all the new quest rewards resources.
I also like to add that Xan was horrible at tech before the Population branch was added. It's TERRIBAD NOW! 1 xan planet in top 50 value, 4 xans in top 100.
This is only because of the population branch. (Xan couldn't (could barely) complete tech tree before, now it's at the point where you never get what you need when you need it.

Removing AF would also remove several of these regular "top ranked planets" who hoard most AF's in their alliances. I would love to see stats on how many these players have used, out of how many totally used in their tag.

So don't use balance as an excuse, because nothing about this is about balance, it's quite the opposite... GETTING AN EDGE OVER THE REST!
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Unread 7 Nov 2018, 08:24   #25
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Re: fleet access.

Just because Xan is weak for a round doesn't mean there's a problem. Obviously, Xan is very weak this round*, but that can just as easily be because of the stats or alliance fleet strategies. 2 rounds ago there were 5 Xans in the top 10, so even if Xan race bonuses are weak (which I strongly contest: cloak is insane), they can still clearly be more than compensated for in the stats, which implies to me that whatever imbalance exists, it's minor in the grand scheme of things. Rather than focus on that minor imbalance, focus on helping improve the stats instead (which I know you already do), where apparently much larger imbalances still exist.

That said, I agree balanced stats do not compensate for alliance fleets or prelaunch. I'm... not even sure by what mechanism that would happen.

* Until now, I didn't realize how imbalanced the universe is... 75% of the top 100 is Ter and Cat, 80% of the top 50, and 90% of the top 10. That's hilarious.
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Unread 7 Nov 2018, 08:57   #26
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Re: fleet access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Until now, I didn't realize how imbalanced the universe is... 75% of the top 100 is Ter and Cat, 80% of the top 50, and 90% of the top 10. That's hilarious.
Cant this be the ideal round in many ways?
The tags that went strat A outplayed who ever went for strat B.
Those that went for strat B maybe did not have the know how for getting their strategy to work, and those that went for strat A did what they needed to do.
Somewhere you wouldve expected the xan heavy tags to maaaaaybe consider switching from FI to FR instead of continueing with what was not working
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Unread 7 Nov 2018, 09:33   #27
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Re: fleet access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Just because Xan is weak for a round doesn't mean there's a problem. Obviously, Xan is very weak this round*, but that can just as easily be because of the stats or alliance fleet strategies. 2 rounds ago there were 5 Xans in the top 10, so even if Xan race bonuses are weak (which I strongly contest: cloak is insane), they can still clearly be more than compensated for in the stats, which implies to me that whatever imbalance exists, it's minor in the grand scheme of things. Rather than focus on that minor imbalance, focus on helping improve the stats instead (which I know you already do), where apparently much larger imbalances still exist.

That said, I agree balanced stats do not compensate for alliance fleets or prelaunch. I'm... not even sure by what mechanism that would happen.

* Until now, I didn't realize how imbalanced the universe is... 75% of the top 100 is Ter and Cat, 80% of the top 50, and 90% of the top 10. That's hilarious.
2 rounds ago was the XP madness round, where most alliances completly abandoned defence. And only reason Xan did well was because most universe went xan and farmed XP. Look back at rankings and see how often and how many Xans compete for top value... Their RP output just doesn't allow them to be competitive.
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Unread 7 Nov 2018, 14:03   #28
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Re: fleet access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
2 rounds ago was the XP madness round, where most alliances completly abandoned defence. And only reason Xan did well was because most universe went xan and farmed XP. Look back at rankings and see how often and how many Xans compete for top value... Their RP output just doesn't allow them to be competitive.
That round was an outlier indeed, but it may still be useful as a sample..

For example;
the planet with highest value in top 10, and also Xan, did not even make top 200 in value - in fact only 3 Xan planets managed to rank in top 100 on both Score and Value

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Rather than focus on that minor imbalance, focus on helping improve the stats instead (which I know you already do), where apparently much larger imbalances still exist.
While i do agree that any attempts at reaching some form of balance is best focused on stats im less inclined to agree that the viability of going value for Xan is a balance issue in the first place.
The reverse holds true, that it would be a factor to balance around and as such an issue for balance, but at the bottom its still a matter of options and choices within the game (not by default equal, but being more than theoretical at least).

At this point i personally chose* to remain cautiously optimistic towards any changes that promotes options for diversity within the individual races.

*meaning i know that it might very well end up biting me in the ass
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Unread 7 Nov 2018, 16:06   #29
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Re: fleet access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
Cant this be the ideal round in many ways?
The tags that went strat A outplayed who ever went for strat B.
Those that went for strat B maybe did not have the know how for getting their strategy to work, and those that went for strat A did what they needed to do.
Somewhere you wouldve expected the xan heavy tags to maaaaaybe consider switching from FI to FR instead of continueing with what was not working
Everyone who went Xan, ZIk and Etd clearly overestimated how strong those races are, and that's on them as players. It's on us* as stats makers that there even is a fleet strategy A that completely outperforms all other strategies. That's just bad design.

* I didn't actually participate this time around, but you know what I mean: the small group of people who involve themselves in the ship stat design process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
2 rounds ago was the XP madness round, where most alliances completly abandoned defence. And only reason Xan did well was because most universe went xan and farmed XP. Look back at rankings and see how often and how many Xans compete for top value... Their RP output just doesn't allow them to be competitive.
Sure, they're a little underrepresented. However, they only get 5-10 fewer RP per tick than Ter, Zik and Etd, and in exchange, they gain the absolutely bonkers advantage of having (usually) only cloaked ships. Considering they were overrepresented in the top 10, 50 and 100 for the longest time, I think the current situation is absolutely fine.

...and none of this is relevant to the thread.
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Unread 7 Nov 2018, 17:22   #30
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Re: fleet access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Everyone who went Xan, ZIk and Etd clearly overestimated how strong those races are, and that's on them as players. It's on us* as stats makers that there even is a fleet strategy A that completely outperforms all other strategies. That's just bad design.
Well in this case i dont think there is a strategy that out performs any other strategy, just pointing out that if you went xan FI and continuesly try to hit a tag that went heavy ter DE you are not going to be doing very well in the rankings as xan FI cannot land terran DE.

Overall the average score/value is pretty much even for all races, except xan.
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Unread 7 Nov 2018, 18:02   #31
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Re: fleet access.

...Wow, the races at the top of KIA are not in order. I would have noticed fewer people are playing Zik and Etd if that weren't the case.

P.S. Zik is still doing very badly too, just not quite as badly as Xan.
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Unread 8 Nov 2018, 01:26   #32
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Re: fleet access.

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
I would love to see stats on how many these players have used, out of how many totally used in their tag.
Worth asking in Misc Stats at the end of the round. We already have the top planets for having their AF launched (with launch count) the top DCs launching them (with launch count) and top AF launches by alliance.
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Unread 8 Nov 2018, 14:08   #33
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Re: fleet access.

Prediction: it'll be 5 people in the top 10, 2 in the top 100, and 3 people who competed for a top 10 finish and then crashed out of the top 100.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 9 Nov 2018, 23:16   #34
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Re: fleet access.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Sure, they're a little underrepresented. However, they only get 5-10 fewer RP per tick than Ter, Zik and Etd, and in exchange, they gain the absolutely bonkers advantage of having (usually) only cloaked ships. Considering they were overrepresented in the top 10, 50 and 100 for the longest time, I think the current situation is absolutely fine.

...and none of this is relevant to the thread.
5-10 with 50 - 70% bonus from population and reslabs over 1100 ticks is a huge difference. And getting 50% bonus via population, is a detour on top for xan(all) now.

...and does it really matter which threads we reply in anymore?
Pa team rarely comes with input on things, and this forum is almost dead recently.
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