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Unread 21 Feb 2014, 12:20   #101
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

You probably have nice set of stats, Isildrux, but if I'm being honest, Tia's set this round have demoralised a lot of players. A serious broken set.

What's more disturbing is Appocomaster even considered them. lol.
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Unread 21 Feb 2014, 13:17   #102
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

And that is relevant... how?
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Unread 21 Feb 2014, 13:49   #103
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Three weeks of no game and I'm sue you're ready for a new round.
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Unread 21 Feb 2014, 13:52   #104
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
You probably have nice set of stats, Isildrux, but if I'm being honest, Tia's set this round have demoralised a lot of players. A serious broken set.

What's more disturbing is Appocomaster even considered them. lol.
Id imagine Appoco considered them because they were offered up and he didnt have any other options or time to make his own.

Bashing this rounds set is for the other thread though.

Isil thank you for making the changes, nice to see someone who can identify a small problem and is happy to fix it.

I havent given any 'advice' or 'different options' to this set because i think you have had the right idea from the start and frankly have had more than long enough to iron out all the creases. I like that every race has options and that there isnt a defined 'best setup'. It could make for an interesting round and hopefully one where the stats arent mentioned in any posts, that would be the best testament to them.
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Unread 21 Feb 2014, 14:20   #105
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Well, I'd still urge people to take a look at effciencies and see if any look off. EMP effs, efficiency of the low-init killships, steal effs and the A/C of DE fleets probably most crucial.
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Unread 23 Feb 2014, 20:17   #106
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Well, I'd still urge people to take a look at effciencies and see if any look off. EMP effs, efficiency of the low-init killships, steal effs and the A/C of DE fleets probably most crucial.
So no changes to targetting anymore correct?
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Unread 23 Feb 2014, 21:15   #107
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

If you have something you don't think is balanced then let me know, but if noone say anything then no..
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Unread 24 Feb 2014, 20:26   #108
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

thats the stats looking fairly even splits for alliance choices, inits + ship types done just need to do emp and they are ready for beta testing.

Changes I would like to see now are...

Harpy decrease in emp resistance.
Currently 121% v beetle and 124% v ranger I would like to see this to be around the 150% mark.

Spiders Decrease in damage v cost currently 521 would like to see this around the 440 mark.

Roach a 10-15% increase in emp

Guardian a 10-15% increase in emp

War frigate decrease in emp resistance.
currently around 20% stronger than other frigate types.
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Unread 25 Feb 2014, 13:19   #109
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Adjusted Harpy and WF emp res, roach and guardian efficiency and lowered spide damage a bit.
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Unread 25 Feb 2014, 13:32   #110
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
thats the stats looking fairly even splits for alliance choices, inits + ship types done just need to do emp and they are ready for beta testing.

Changes I would like to see now are...

Harpy decrease in emp resistance.
Currently 121% v beetle and 124% v ranger I would like to see this to be around the 150% mark.

Spiders Decrease in damage v cost currently 521 would like to see this around the 440 mark.

Roach a 10-15% increase in emp

Guardian a 10-15% increase in emp

War frigate decrease in emp resistance.
currently around 20% stronger than other frigate types.
I dont wanna be a pain but surely the fact that it is a Terran Frigate means it should have higher emp res than other races, that is the whole race spec of Terran afterall. Same with the Harpy.
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Unread 25 Feb 2014, 13:34   #111
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Then we should also change its initiative to 10 since that's the whole race spec of Terran after all, firing late. I even see other Ter ships firing before Xan, what is this blasphemy?
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Unread 25 Feb 2014, 14:18   #112
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Do terran ships have thave higher emp res? EMP res isn't the same as armor I don't really care either way.
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Unread 25 Feb 2014, 14:29   #113
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

A few questions re: some of the most "important" ships in the stats

* Is the war frigate too good? It kills at about 110% efficiency, but it's not in a roidfleet and there has to be a good ingal anti FI ship. It's close to the Clipper this round but not in a roidfleet so shouldn't be spammed as much. And there's no ghosts to worry about.

* What about the rogue? 85% eff vs ter BS, 100% vs etd BS.

* What about the investor? 80% vs ter bs, 95% vs etd bs.
The investor is really easily EMP'd though. One possibility, if it is too strong, is to make te investors NORMAL and the dealer CLOAK.

Both of these ships only have a T1, so I don't know how they can be much lower.
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Unread 25 Feb 2014, 14:56   #114
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Improved efficiency of BW and Scorpion.

Greatly lowered the armor and Emp-res on SKs
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Unread 25 Feb 2014, 15:37   #115
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

adjusted some costs, e-res and armor of some pods
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Unread 26 Feb 2014, 08:48   #116
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I looked at the stats for the first time and there is one thing bothering me.
There are 2 DE attack fleets (TER and ZIK), but ETD don't have any anti DE T1.
Worse, 2 of their anti DE is only emp and the last one, the Dealer, fires T2 after the Drake targeting him.
Looks like too big a hole imho. I think there should be a switch in targeting T1/T2 for one of those ETD ships.
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Unread 26 Feb 2014, 10:13   #117
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I don't personally view it as a big problem, what does everyone else think? There's 0 chance of me swapping th targetting on the Guardian, that's for sure.

Noone has any thoughts on my questions re: war frigate and the cloak/non-cloak of the etd fr?
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Unread 26 Feb 2014, 10:43   #118
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I do! I think that the War Frigate is ok, mainly because it is off class. Xan Fi has plenty of other targets in the universe.

Regarding ETD FR i would just leave it as it is. It just means that Ter BS needs an ETD teamup to roid ETD, its still fine against the rest.

I feel now that you are tweaking for the sake of tweaking, if you can or have balanced your effs then i would leave alone now, any little tweak at this point can be 4-5 steps backwards in the stats.

This set will play well, stop fiddling.
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Unread 26 Feb 2014, 10:58   #119
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

What about the etd de targetting that makhil questioned?
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Unread 26 Feb 2014, 11:03   #120
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
What about the etd de targetting that makhil questioned?
De is not going to be a heavily played race. Even if it is then the dealer still outints Zik DE and The guardian is still over 120% efficent at t2 against all DE.

No race is gonna be great against everything, so to Makhil i would say tough, that is how it is, every other race struggles against something too. I would be pleased that ETDs hole is against something that no one will be.
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Unread 26 Feb 2014, 11:25   #121
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Well, etd is open to pretty much everything
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Unread 26 Feb 2014, 14:42   #122
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

If you are using that logic then cat is open to everything
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Unread 26 Feb 2014, 15:24   #123
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Well, in theory, they are
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Unread 28 Feb 2014, 09:02   #124
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Haunt needs its class changed to fighter, this is unacceptable.
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Unread 1 Mar 2014, 12:30   #125
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Haunt needs its class changed to fighter, this is unacceptable.
I concur, FICO SKs are needed !
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Unread 2 Mar 2014, 16:25   #126
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

The betaserver is up and running with the stats now, if anyone for some reason wants to "test" them.
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Unread 2 Mar 2014, 16:47   #127
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

remind me url please.

when are stats final?

i will take proper look tonight
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Unread 2 Mar 2014, 17:09   #128
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats

Noone's pointed out anything being wrong recently, so they're very close to final in my book.
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Unread 2 Mar 2014, 22:52   #129
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Why are thief and cutlass firing at similar effs? when one is steal and other is kill?

Also emp vs illusion seems kinda high 150% vs xan fi 184% vs illusion.
Also viper vs Demeter@ 200%?! Ter De could prolly use a e/r boost.
Same with Oligark 204% & Hornet needs to have its emp res dropped. It just seems weird that pods are emp'd before all the ships firing it will be a repeat of a few rounds ago when caths had to build like 20k mosquitos to camp.

EDIT: It also seems weird that cath has ONLY one ship that target fi or co.
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 04:44   #130
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Also emp vs illusion seems kinda high 150% vs xan fi 184% vs illusion.
Also viper vs Demeter@ 200%?! Ter De could prolly use a e/r boost.
Same with Oligark 204% & Hornet needs to have its emp res dropped. It just seems weird that pods are emp'd before all the ships firing it will be a repeat of a few rounds ago when caths had to build like 20k mosquitos to camp.
Co Pods were usually emped before the whole fleet last round. They were a pain to stop and this made them less OP. Xan FI pods on the other hand had to have E/R greater than the other Xan Fi as Phantom had so crap E/R that despite their T1 was CO we could consider that they cant fire against any Beetle fleet. Dont know if my analysis was correct but what I got is that how Emp Effectiveness against pods are considered should not be a simple rule.

Quote:
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EDIT: It also seems weird that cath has ONLY one ship that target fi or co.
Cath usually have Spider as another ship that either target Fi or Co but they are rarelly useful enough to people consider to build them. So not having another ship that targets Fi or Co is something not good but far from being that harmfull to Caths. Making Spider the way it is proposed give cath an option to pair with defenders, banshee and nix against FR incs in addition to the use of scarabs.
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 04:54   #131
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
EDIT: It also seems weird that cath has ONLY one ship that target fi or co.
Perhaps, but the "Beetle" or equivalent is usually really good. When you can invest in one ship and essentially avoid fi/co incs while using it both offensively and defensively, it's typically enough.

I can't recall, but I think there were a few rounds where Cath had a "Pegasus" type destroyer that fired fairly late targetting fi/co.


EDIT: I've followed this thread somewhat and Isil seems to have come up with a pretty good set of stats. They're never going to be "perfect", but these are pretty good. I usually roll Xan but there seems to be some interesting team-up options all across the board. I'm not sold on ETD purely because I've never really understood the race. They're either crap, or "OP". I might actually play half-assed next round as Xan, for free.
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 06:23   #132
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Why are thief and cutlass firing at similar effs? when one is steal and other is kill?

Also emp vs illusion seems kinda high 150% vs xan fi 184% vs illusion.
Also viper vs Demeter@ 200%?! Ter De could prolly use a e/r boost.
Same with Oligark 204% & Hornet needs to have its emp res dropped. It just seems weird that pods are emp'd before all the ships firing it will be a repeat of a few rounds ago when caths had to build like 20k mosquitos to camp.

EDIT: It also seems weird that cath has ONLY one ship that target fi or co.
Come on Tia, you did stats last round; please tell me you have a better understanding of EMP... Demeter's ERes is HIGH, not low. Just because Viper EMPs it at 200% does not mean it needs a boost.

Out of all ten pods, only one pod has lower ERes than all of its 'classmates', which is the Oligarch. Xan's pods are in between while all seven other pods have equal or higher ERes.
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 09:54   #133
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Come on Tia, you did stats last round; please tell me you have a better understanding of EMP... Demeter's ERes is HIGH, not low. Just because Viper EMPs it at 200% does not mean it needs a boost.
Perhaps you should not be so quick to accuse others of not understanding EMP.

Tia is right, the Demeter is too easily hugged. However, his (implied) analysis of the problem is incorrect, and hence his proposed solution is wrong. The problem is not that the ERes on the Demeter is too low. It's that the Demeter is too expensive. The ship should be more in line with other Ter De ships.

In fact, pod ERes in general could use a bit more work. The ERes of a pod should be roughly in between that of its escorts. This ensures that you can't just send a few EMP ships to completely stop a much larger fleet, and also that you don't have to massively overkill with EMP to stop the last few pods from getting through. In that light, the current pod ERes (and cost!) numbers could use another going over.

I also note that Zik De, Zik Cr and Etd Fr combat ships all have the same ERes. Not necessarily harmful, but prehaps a little boring. -1 to the small ones, +1 to the big ones, problem solved.
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 10:13   #134
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Hey, it was you who gave me the notes on what the eres and cost of pods should be mz

I'll give it another look over :\
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 10:14   #135
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

First off, i Did not sugguest how to fix any of these problems, because I do understand how emp works there are many ways to go about it, I just wanted to point out a few ships that seemed to have quite ODD E/R %.

Its perfectly fine to same same E/R in attack classes it will always affect the % because of ship costs the more expensive the better the eff etc...

Emp is the hardest bloody thing to work with in stats as changing just 1 ****ing ship can alter all of it for the rest. So Mz I do appeciate you defending me but I leave the solution up to the stats maker as he could decide to rework guns to cost to e/r ratio in order to make a hole somewhere he wanted but not in others.
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 11:22   #136
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Updates:

- Updated a whole lot of minor emp effs for fi and co ships.
- Overall Beetle and Ranger are more effective vs xan fi
- Increased emp eff of the Defender
- Decreased E/R and armour of the Spectre

edit: Bucc damage also +10%
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 14:15   #137
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I have also suggested either scrapping the possibility to change goverment, or make going into anarchy a lot more "expensive".
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Unread 3 Mar 2014, 23:51   #138
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

maybe anarchy could be like getting hit with one of each of the covops. as in losing like .5% of everything per tick. so in the end its like 36% value of your ships, stocked res, roids, research, cons etc.
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Unread 4 Mar 2014, 00:31   #139
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I haven't looked at the stats in-depth, but it appears to me that each round Xan is becoming less viable to play.
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Unread 4 Mar 2014, 00:44   #140
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Its the "cloacked" excuse that makes up for it Clouds.
Having 1 strong xan ship is simply too much, so better just overall make the ships ok at best.

From my personal view on xan: they are supposed to be a mix of fastest init kill ships, good D/C, and crap A/C. Lately its just crap a/c, crap d/c and not even fastest inits...

Every time i see ter able to attack into xans because of stats i cry alittle. (which again is almost every bloody round lately) Why should ter outinit, out armour, and still have a decent d/c against xans roiding classes?

Best xan stats lately was r53, where fi actually were "strong", except against xan. And yet Ter "dominated" the top 100...

Balance is key...
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Unread 4 Mar 2014, 01:00   #141
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Looking at stats yet again, the difference is even worse this time...

Ter is overall best on DC and AC......... by far.

Nuke the race imo!
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Unread 4 Mar 2014, 06:08   #142
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
Best xan stats lately was r53, where fi actually were "strong", except against xan. And yet Ter "dominated" the top 100...
By "dominated" you mean "had 8 fewer planets in the top 100 than Xan", I assume?
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Unread 4 Mar 2014, 08:47   #143
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

If Xan is really good, then there will be an abundance of xan in the universe, some alliance will go pure xan fi, and overall it's not gonna be very fun. I think Xan look good in these stats, they can roid four out of five races, and the one killship that shoots before them is an off-roidclass terran ship.
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Unread 4 Mar 2014, 09:06   #144
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

the one? and wyvern is what?

and mz i meant to type top 10
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Unread 4 Mar 2014, 09:10   #145
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

I'm talking about Xan FI, they can roid four out of five races.
FR teamups can also roid four out of five races.
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Unread 4 Mar 2014, 10:51   #146
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I'm talking about Xan FI, they can roid four out of five races.
FR teamups can also roid four out of five races.

Ignore the whiners, all races are more than playable, including Xan. People just want an obvious best race then they can come back after 500 ticks and complain its too good.
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Unread 4 Mar 2014, 12:25   #147
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

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Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
I'm talking about Xan FI, they can roid four out of five races.
FR teamups can also roid four out of five races.
What four races would that be for FR? I know you have your way to think and i mine, but some things i clearly don't see that you guys do, and visa versa. Zik? Xan? Etd? Ter? Cath?

And i talked in general... cba to try and state this round after round anymore, but stats that enforce big lol waves to land are just... meh i have no word for it.

One last thing: What would you define as ter's weakness's, they seem to be able to fend off every class / race. Which again brings me back to the enforce big lol waves...
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Unread 4 Mar 2014, 16:24   #148
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Cat co needs it's efficiency reduced. It is very strong and spam-able
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Unread 4 Mar 2014, 16:40   #149
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Yes it's strong, but unlike round 55 it only targets 3 classes. Caths need to build at least 4 ships, so their efficiency have to be high.

edit:

The beetle has a bit higher efficiency than round 55
The viper has no T2
There is A LOT more available fi/co class anti co def available compared to last round

Bottom line: I don't think cath co is too good. Don't get me wrong, it's really good, but it's no better than normal.
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Unread 4 Mar 2014, 17:02   #150
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Re: Round 56 shipsstats

Is there a bcalc available for the beta stats?
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