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Unread 16 Sep 2010, 05:52   #1
dda
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The "Intellectual" Left

The Left, in the United States, lays claim to all intellectual high ground. Most of higher education is stocked by members of the Left intelligentsia. And yet, the attacks on leaders on the right is usually couched in terms of ridicule or opprobrium.

The mantra of the Left, at least in the United States, seems to be that if you do not agree with them you are either stupid or you are evil. The only way you can show intelligence is to agree with them on all things. The only way you can show humanity is to do things their way.

If you oppose a position taken by these intellectuals you either don't understand or you are an evil person who is willing to turn your back on the greater good of humanity.

Denigrating your opponents intelligence and/or their motives is easier than having to respond to their positions.
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Unread 16 Sep 2010, 07:47   #2
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

I can't believe you just wasted scarce, precious oxygen to come up with this.
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 12:38   #3
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

What left?

For that matter, what intellectuals?

For an educated American to rail against 'intellectuals' is not only absurd, it is frankly pathetic. America is, more than any other country in the world, possibly any other country on the planet, the country of the mob - and it is usually a hysterical and knee-jerk mob at that. It would not have stomach for a self-professed intellectual of any variety even if it knew what one was.

Denigrating intellectualism - which is of course a term covering all higher human thinking - is only done by those who fear it or regard it within insecurity. As I don't think you are afraid of higher thought or insecure about it, dda, I can only assume you are parroting this crap from some loudmouth knobjockey who is.

Last edited by Marilyn Manson; 17 Sep 2010 at 13:06.
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 13:29   #4
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

Was this an attempt to break the irony record on the internet by launching an ad hominem attack on the entire educational establishment of the USA over the fact they use ad hominem attacks
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 17:37   #5
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

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Originally Posted by dda View Post
The Left, in the United States, lays claim to all intellectual high ground. Most of higher education is stocked by members of the Left intelligentsia. And yet, the attacks on leaders on the right is usually couched in terms of ridicule or opprobrium.

The mantra of the Left, at least in the United States, seems to be that if you do not agree with them you are either stupid or you are evil. The only way you can show intelligence is to agree with them on all things. The only way you can show humanity is to do things their way.

If you oppose a position taken by these intellectuals you either don't understand or you are an evil person who is willing to turn your back on the greater good of humanity.

Denigrating your opponents intelligence and/or their motives is easier than having to respond to their positions.
Firstly, there is no mainstream Left in America. There is only the Right and the Far Right.

The attacks on the Far Right are rarely framed in serious debate because the arguments made by the Far Right are rarely more than rhetoric. Both dies are guilty of this and it's an important part of the American political system, in that the result is to reduce discussion of real issues to a minimum.
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 17:53   #6
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

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Originally Posted by Tietäjä View Post
I can't believe you just wasted scarce, precious oxygen to come up with this.
Demeaning without presenting a position.
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 17:57   #7
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson View Post
What left?

For that matter, what intellectuals?

For an educated American to rail against 'intellectuals' is not only absurd, it is frankly pathetic. America is, more than any other country in the world, possibly any other country on the planet, the country of the mob - and it is usually a hysterical and knee-jerk mob at that. It would not have stomach for a self-professed intellectual of any variety even if it knew what one was.

Denigrating intellectualism - which is of course a term covering all higher human thinking - is only done by those who fear it or regard it within insecurity. As I don't think you are afraid of higher thought or insecure about it, dda, I can only assume you are parroting this crap from some loudmouth knobjockey who is.
Good. You have demeaned me. You have demeaned an entire country. I don't know whether you profess to be in any way intellectual but you certainly are following in the pattern of which I complain.
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 18:01   #8
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Was this an attempt to break the irony record on the internet by launching an ad hominem attack on the entire educational establishment of the USA over the fact they use ad hominem attacks
No. It was an observation. I first noticed it when I was in school. Those who professed to be intellectuals were usually (not catagorically) those who were least tollerant of the views of others. Choosing to demean the individual rather than address the idea. It continues. It is not unique to the left or right. It is very common and very human.

It is also frustrating that those people who hold themselves up as intellectual beacons are as prone to it as those they demean.
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 18:05   #9
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go View Post
Firstly, there is no mainstream Left in America. There is only the Right and the Far Right.

The attacks on the Far Right are rarely framed in serious debate because the arguments made by the Far Right are rarely more than rhetoric. Both dies are guilty of this and it's an important part of the American political system, in that the result is to reduce discussion of real issues to a minimum.
If this was only true of political debate and issues, it would be far more understandable. However, it is not limited to this but also seems to frequently raise it's ugly head in academia, religion and other areas as well. "If you don't agree with me then you are an idiot or evil."

G. D. is rife with such positions.
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 18:06   #10
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

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Originally Posted by dda View Post
No. It was an observation. I first noticed it when I was in school. Those who professed to be intellectuals were usually (not catagorically) those who were least tollerant of the views of others. Choosing to demean the individual rather than address the idea. It continues. It is not unique to the left or right. It is very common and very human.

It is also frustrating that those people who hold themselves up as intellectual beacons are as prone to it as those they demean.
Saying "it is human to do so" ignores the cultural aspects of that particular society. Acting in certain ways will get you further than acting in other ways. Unfortunately, this is currently a good way to get ahead. This is not an American trait nor a human trait, it is a socio-economic trait. If you go against the grain, you will suffer the consequences.
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Unread 17 Sep 2010, 18:09   #11
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

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If this was only true of political debate and issues, it would be far more understandable. However, it is not limited to this but also seems to frequently raise it's ugly head in academia, religion and other areas as well. "If you don't agree with me then you are an idiot or evil."

G. D. is rife with such positions.
I would suggest this is only the case in public. If you put a bunch of powerful people in a room and make no records they will be far more honest than if it is recorded. Speaking the whole truth and nothing but the truth in the public arena is rarely beneficial to that person/institution.
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Unread 18 Sep 2010, 10:51   #12
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

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Originally Posted by dda View Post
Demeaning without presenting a position.
The Right, in Europe, lays claim to all intellectual high ground. Most of higher education is stocked by members of the Right intelligentsia. And yet, the attacks on leaders on the left is usually couched in terms of ridicule or opprobrium.

The mantra of the Right, at least in Europe, seems to be that if you do not agree with them you are either stupid or you are evil. The only way you can show intelligence is to agree with them on all things. The only way you can show humanity is to do things their way.

If you oppose a position taken by these intellectuals you either don't understand or you are an evil person who is willing to turn your back on the greater good of humanity.

Denigrating your opponents intelligence and/or their motives is easier than having to respond to their positions.


There you go. I presented a subjective position based on my personal bias and views with little or to no analytical backing.
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 16:54   #13
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

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Good. You have demeaned me.
I haven't demeaned you, I said that your attitude on this issue was "pathetic" based on the fact that you are an educated person (I assume, although I am now having my doubts) and should know better, and that I suspected you were parroting this from somewhere.

The first part of this is my opinion and you are free to rebuke me for it with a counter-argument - you have not done so.

The second part is based on a reasonable suspicion, as you have previously referenced the fact that you read the sort of shit which would inspire this thread. There has been no attempt to refute this second point either, which rather leads me to suspect it is true.

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You have demeaned an entire country.
As you don't seem to be aware of this, I should point out that I said nothing substantially more 'demeaning' regarding said country than you did, ultimately.

I was unaware that a thread all about slagging off America and making sweeping generalisations about it's political culture was not the place to make critical comments about American political culture, my apologies.

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I don't know whether you profess to be in any way intellectual but you certainly are following in the pattern of which I complain.
What pattern? The pattern of people having the temerity to disagree with pappy, badly-constructed opinions, (I flatter - it's a prejudice actually) which even the people who make them are not willing to defend?

Oh, the humanity!

Yes, so what do we have here up to now: a thread created to air a prejudice regarding "the left" as supposedly being intolerant and condemning any opposing points of view, in which you proceed to entirely dismiss any opposing comment as being unfounded and "demeaning".

And they say Americans don't do irony.

Last edited by Marilyn Manson; 21 Sep 2010 at 17:31.
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Unread 21 Sep 2010, 18:31   #14
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson View Post

Let's back up then.

[What left?}

The American left. Perhaps, as some have suggested, the not as right as the far right. But those on the political left in the United States.

[For that matter, what intellectuals?]

I don't think that those who engage in the type of tactics of which I complain are intellectuals. Thus the ""intellectual" tag.

My take on a true intellectual is one who encourages discourse on ideas rather than discouraging discourse. Even if the person having a differing opinion is wrong. Even if the person offering the opinion is uneducated. An intellectual worthy of the name (my opinion only) does not dismiss the opinion or argument of the other person. He engages with an eye to teaching the other person and persuading them. He (the or she is implied) also listens to the other person and accepts that someone without the same advantages of education or intellect might still have a point from which he could learn.

[For an educated American to rail against 'intellectuals' is not only absurd, it is frankly pathetic.]

In the context which I have stated above:
1) Do you truly believe I am railing? Perhaps I do not fully understand the context in which you use that term.
2) Did you understand that my complaint was directed at those call themselves intellectuals and then, through their actions, do a diservice to that which they claim to be?
3) In what way do you see my complaint as being absurd?
4) The dictionary I use defines pathetic as: "having a capacity to move one to either compassionate or contemptuous pity." I may be wrong but I don't think that you are being compassionate. Thus, I will assume that you are being contemptuous. If so, in what respect is my complaint contemptable?

[America is, more than any other country in the world, possibly any other country on the planet, the country of the mob - and it is usually a hysterical and knee-jerk mob at that. It would not have stomach for a self-professed intellectual of any variety even if it knew what one was.]

Am I correct or incorrect in assuming that this is an indication of contempt for America? Perhaps you would enlighten me on how, "America is, more than any other country in the world..., the country of the mob?
How have we distinguished ourselves beyond all of the other countries? I believe in American exceptionalism but even I believe that this honor might well be contested by other countries.

[Denigrating intellectualism - which is of course a term covering all higher human thinking - is only done by those who fear it or regard it within insecurity.]

The criticism isn't aimed at intellecualism but the much more common pseudo-intellectualism.

[As I don't think you are afraid of higher thought or insecure about it, dda]

I thank you for that.

[I can only assume you are parroting this crap from some loudmouth knobjockey who is]

As for the "knob jockies", do not be too quick to dismiss all of them. (As an aside, "know jockey" was, at one time, a disparaging name for homosexuals.) Grains of truth and understanding can come from the least likely sources.

.
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Unread 24 Sep 2010, 12:00   #15
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

Well we havently really narrowed anything down have we. "The left". What left, and who is enaging in this behaviour? This is what I mean by 'pathetic'. At a time when all the narrow and bluntly ideological intolerance in American politics is quite pointedly coming from the right in the shape of the tea party, what do we do - we attack 'the left'. Fabulous conclusion.

Also your identification of intellectuals is contradictory. 'An intellectual is someone whose mind is open'. So how can an intellectual be part of this supposed intolerant left? If they're intolerant, they're not an intellectual.

But as I've never met a single person in my life who self-identified as an intellectual, I'm not really sure on what basis it's useful.

My comment on 'the country of a mob' is my rather unflattering take on America's democratic and egalitarian impulses, and it's suspicion of elites. All of which I believe can be, and in the case of America often are, taken too far. As, I would waspishly suggest, this thread partially demonstrates.

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Unread 27 Sep 2010, 17:28   #16
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

So, what about those of us in the middle, those of us that have opinions that fall on both sides of the bi-partisan aisle?

I happen to adore mocking people regardless of their beliefs. Does this automatically put me on the "left"?

What about my education level, as I have an advanced degree, not to mention self-identify as an intellectual (which I define as a person who uses knowledge and critical thinking to understand the world)? Do I have to be either a trust fund baby, or a lower class factory worker to be part of the "right"?

I know people of all walks of life, of all races, creeds, colors and sexes that fall on both ends of the spectrum and everywhere in between. The most accepting person I know did not complete secondary school. I know multitudes of closed-minded individuals self-identifying as intellectuals. And yes, I have mocked them all (including myself), with reckless and joyful abandon!

You are entitled to your opinion, as am I. I do not agree with your opinion, however it is not an uncommon one.

Also, "the Left intelligentsia" definitely does not have the monopoly on either mockery or determining the opposition is stupid or evil for disagreement. Wherever you have passionate opposing sides, there will be both.

If you truly question the truth of my words, just take a look at any one of the planetarion suggestion threads...

If you would like a general comment, all humans are egocentric, puerile simpletons, firmly convinced of his/her superiority to not only others of the species, but other species... and all because we have no scale to compare ourselves to to know how truly ignorant we are. Definitely including me.
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Unread 27 Sep 2010, 22:07   #17
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

next on fox news...
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Unread 28 Sep 2010, 13:44   #18
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

It makes me sad how we are no longer a forum with even a modicum of self-awareness or sense of irony. I, for one, blame T&F.
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Unread 28 Sep 2010, 16:58   #19
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

maybe you should go post in "Alliance Discussions" about it.
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Unread 28 Sep 2010, 18:38   #20
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

Maybe you should not post at all.



Already pretty much there aren't we?
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 03:39   #21
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

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It makes me sad how we are no longer a forum with even a modicum of self-awareness or sense of irony. I, for one, blame T&F.
I blame shit posters. I believe that's always been the problem with GD, as far as I could tell.
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Unread 29 Sep 2010, 19:44   #22
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

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Originally Posted by Nodrog View Post
maybe you should go post in "Alliance Discussions" about it.

sup dude, got any new fancy skinnyjeans lately? Could you advice me on the kind of belt I should wear with it, white is still the color of the day? I hear Uggs are acceptable for male nowadays, would you advice me to go for them or am I already behind the times?


dunno man dunno, i just feel like ordering stuff. And dancing, i also feel like dancing, dancing in my skinnyjeans. I feel like opening threads about me dancing in skinnyjeans so everyone can comment on my style. s. t. y. l.e. yep
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Unread 1 Oct 2010, 11:38   #23
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

Hey Jonny, are you still Irish and mysterious and drunk?

Let's shoot some movies.
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Unread 1 Oct 2010, 14:53   #24
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

I'm just hella excited about :
the Rally to Restore Sanity...

Also, what's more fun than taking yourself too seriously on the PA forums? Or hell, on PA in general?
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Unread 30 Oct 2010, 00:43   #25
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

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Was this an attempt to break the irony record on the internet by launching an ad hominem attack on the entire educational establishment of the USA over the fact they use ad hominem attacks
Their propensity to ridicule those who refuse to absolutely conform intellectually, empirically proven thanks to DDA's clear social status, is less an ad hominem for it shows a clear deficiency in intellectual curiosity and ipso facto a very valid reason for DDA's dismay. To refuse to agree to DDA's non-categorical statement based on human behaviour is simply another example of the all too endemic traits that begets this sloppy thinking.
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Unread 4 Nov 2010, 16:21   #26
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

I thought the thread title meant left here.

I entered it to wish you luck
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Unread 8 Nov 2010, 16:21   #27
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

Mint-tea!
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Unread 8 Nov 2010, 16:28   #28
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

Hi Big Boy
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Unread 8 Nov 2010, 21:47   #29
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

dda is just jealous, couse the right doesnt have any intellectuals of their own.*


* Neither of these are intellectuals: Sarah Palin, Ann Coulter and Glenn Beck.
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Unread 10 Nov 2010, 05:07   #30
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Re: The "Intellectual" Left

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dda is just jealous, couse the right doesnt have any intellectuals of their own.*


* Neither of these are intellectuals: Sarah Palin, Ann Coulter and Glenn Beck.
Conservatives have intellectuals, people like David Brooks, Kathleen Parker, John G. Roberts, and Samuel Alito. They are very smart people, educated and good writers. These are just the ones being a lay person I know of. I'm sure actual intellectuals would know more influential conservative figures.
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