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Unread 6 Apr 2009, 21:47   #151
isildurx
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Re: R31 shipstats

Having talked to Achi I now see the error of my ways and xan is not overpowered. There is no reason to change the stats. I stand corrected.
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Unread 6 Apr 2009, 22:34   #152
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Re: R31 shipstats

Where did the zik fi/co kill ship go? Now they dont have any normal fi/co. WHich i think is a problem.
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Unread 6 Apr 2009, 23:37   #153
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Re: R31 shipstats

At a quick glance, this appears to be a very good set of stats for Xan.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 05:19   #154
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Re: R31 shipstats

is there any word from Pete, Appoco, or anyone that stats discussed here are going to be used, and which ones we should be reviewing? just feel the need to ask is all, and we have 2 or 3 people posting stat versions.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 07:26   #155
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Re: R31 shipstats

Gate`s stats are likely to be used this round.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 08:20   #156
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Re: R31 shipstats

Is there any reason for Etraide having 3 Cloak, 3 EMP, 2 Steal and just 1(!) Normal ship?
Except for the init, the Arrowhead looks like a Ter-Ship to me, and looking at the Ter-Stats, the init argument is invalid.

=> Arrowhead from Cloaked to Normal

*edit* im still in favor of tweaked r30 stats over these
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 09:07   #157
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Re: R31 shipstats

ETD only had one 'normal' ship last round aswell(the Centaur), so I dont view that as a major problem.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 09:44   #158
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
ETD only had one 'normal' ship last round aswell(the Centaur), so I dont view that as a major problem.
You're forgetting the Gryphon!

(So did everyone else)
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 09:49   #159
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Re: R31 shipstats

Oh man my bad
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 09:49   #160
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Re: R31 shipstats

The what?
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 10:41   #161
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Re: R31 shipstats

hmmm can ter ships have poor emp res than usual plz, esp the bs!

lo gate btw, sad to hear of ur family's loss.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 11:00   #162
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Re: R31 shipstats

id just switch corsair from Fi to Co
and cutlass from Co to Fi
^^ this will help a lil bit imo

however (as stated before) i dont like this set, as there is too many fi/co pods around
3 races + the other 2 able to steal fi/co pods

this will result in huge fi/co fleets flying and hard times to defend against em
and even if you choose a non fi/co strategy, what you defending yourself against fi/co with ?
we shouldnt forget that salvage is reduced, so defending with fr against fi/co will be a tough thing with the uber phantom, you will need to find enough emp to make the defence landable, lets pray enough are willing to build beetle, spider, defender.

fi/co is unstoppable and we will see a eta7 dominated round, where attacking will be much easier compared to defending

i may be completely wrong with this analysis and maybe a lot less ppl pick fi/co based attack fleets, but i dont see this happen

btw i am against giving zik a even better ship (the suggested pillager change), ziks will be hard enough to land on later on, if you make em immune against fi attacks, you remove 1 1/2 races from beeing able to attack em (cathaar and xan (which concentrated on phants instead of revenant, which most probably will)
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 11:02   #163
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Re: R31 shipstats

Dude, how is a DE targetting FI init 3(ONLY TARGETTING FI) going to hurt the ter CO fleet?
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 11:23   #164
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx View Post
Dude, how is a DE targetting FI init 3(ONLY TARGETTING FI) going to hurt the ter CO fleet?
not at all, i somehow thought i did read "make it target co"
i changed my post though before (probs you didnt read in time)
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 13:17   #165
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oizo View Post
Is there any reason for Etraide having 3 Cloak, 3 EMP, 2 Steal and just 1(!) Normal ship?
Except for the init, the Arrowhead looks like a Ter-Ship to me, and looking at the Ter-Stats, the init argument is invalid.

=> Arrowhead from Cloaked to Normal

*edit* im still in favor of tweaked r30 stats over these
Balance is the main argument.

I might change one of the CR ships to normal. I quite like the cloaked arrow, it will go some way to balancing out FI/CO.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 13:21   #166
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Re: R31 shipstats

What's the point of the mantis? It fires before nothing. What's the point of xan fr? It can only roid caths and it's not an option defensively. What's the point of terran? It doesn't seem sustainable, no way to secure yourself defensively and your attacking options are go terran bs and accept the inevitable ton of fr class t1 bs def that will emerge or go co and get raped by the ton of anti-xan-co that'll get produced. There's no really effective kill fleet that can roid xan either. Fi/co/bomber/shadow and you're pretty safe. Salvage got nerfed too, I think zik needs some re-evaluating in light of that.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 13:24   #167
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Re: R31 shipstats

Some EMP resistance would be nice
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 13:41   #168
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Re: R31 shipstats

the FR/DE classes are generally very weak (booji mentioned a little while back) Y did U gimp the Terr Fr fortress by giving them a DE, this round they were real solid defensively, but they couldn't attack without big teams, to make matters worse their init sucks even more than usual.
The Cat and Etd FR/DE are viable, the others are not.
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 14:38   #169
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Re: R31 shipstats

zik bs seems a disaster, can you change Marauder to normal? that wld make them a viable race i think.

broadsword looks overpowered too

maybe swap marauder and fireblade stats?? as it is etd cr is a bit of a fortress, especially with cloaked arrowheads too. (oh and i dont mean cloaking a zik ship etc etc)
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 15:29   #170
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Re: R31 shipstats

Kb ur a bit of a cassandra when it comes to cloak!
Tho the do rather pwn - except terr bs will kick their ass, so does the shadow
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 15:42   #171
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
Kb ur a bit of a cassandra when it comes to cloak!
ooo a classical history reference, straight over the heads of 90% of the community thou i fear.

is the emp resistance gonna be released soon? also SKs gonna be in the game???

overall i quite like the stats, GJ Gate!
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Unread 7 Apr 2009, 17:24   #172
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
What's the point of the mantis? It fires before nothing. What's the point of xan fr? It can only roid caths and it's not an option defensively. What's the point of terran? It doesn't seem sustainable, no way to secure yourself defensively and your attacking options are go terran bs and accept the inevitable ton of fr class t1 bs def that will emerge or go co and get raped by the ton of anti-xan-co that'll get produced. There's no really effective kill fleet that can roid xan either. Fi/co/bomber/shadow and you're pretty safe. Salvage got nerfed too, I think zik needs some re-evaluating in light of that.
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Unread 8 Apr 2009, 08:57   #173
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Re: R31 shipstats

Any chance of getting the mantis changed? In my experience the mantis is not built when it is bs class targeting cr/bs so at the moment it is simply there as a token normal ship, I thought you were an advocate of cat having decent normal ships? It needs to have a decent initiative so it will fire before some things. The alternative is to make it a Fr class as it is then decent as an alliance defence ship, I do remember locust's being built when they were fr targeting cr/bs, but that may be because they were just about the best fr/de ship for dealing with wyverns.

round 29:Locust Frigate Cr/Bs Norm init:6 guns:1 armour:18 damage15 e/r73 M110 C123 E110 A/C524 D/C437 Cath
I dont think it should have such good initiative tho (as 6 would be better than all non emp fr/de class ships targeting cr/bs )
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Unread 8 Apr 2009, 10:07   #174
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Re: R31 shipstats

atm there is no normal fr/de class anti bs/cr ship that fires before terran/etd/xan cr/bs, maybe the mantis could fill this role, atleast more people will go cath

btw yes i know cath fi is rly rly good but they always get massive incoming anyway so stfu it doesnt make cath an uber race.
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Unread 8 Apr 2009, 11:00   #175
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Re: R31 shipstats

Is it fun with those sick fortress terran planets, which u can barely attack even with sick teamups?
its just for them to roid nubs all round, and cruise easy to a top10 spot, or so it was last round anyway.
Terran used to be a good offencive race, now thats completely changed, I dont know why. Overall I dont like a race only having to build 1 class of ships all round which fires at everything.

Over to the stats set. Looks like either zik or xan fi/co for me.
would be fun with a round of 3fleeting with xan fi/co with current stats I d say! ( always is I spose! )
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Unread 8 Apr 2009, 11:06   #176
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Re: R31 shipstats

Oooooo! the 1 round i decide to not play and xan looks v nice.. well for my style of play anyway.

With the stats im currently looking at.. think its gates? http://www.geocities.com/nd_wtf/r31.01.txt looks like i'd just build around 20-30 dist mass fi/co with bomber def fleet and just send illusion on terran/zik all round and keep everything else home at base or use up my final slot for a real hit on a cath with a ter teamup partner.
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Unread 8 Apr 2009, 11:42   #177
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Re: R31 shipstats

Slightly off topic. Where in the stats or general game mechanics change - the goal to dramatically attract playerbase in Planetarion is?

(having a quick lurk on the forums to check how a new owner will affect next round - it looks status quo to me. In other words, dwindling playerbase or new players not finding it fun/a bit easy/attractive enough)
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Unread 8 Apr 2009, 11:59   #178
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
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Is it fun with those sick fortress terran planets, which u can barely attack even with sick teamups?
Not especially but at least that is a purpose; terr fr is TOTALLY worthless atm, without the defensive strength of the all one class fortress effect their rubbish initiative becomes a horrendous handicap
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Unread 8 Apr 2009, 19:09   #179
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
Balance is the main argument.

I might change one of the CR ships to normal. I quite like the cloaked arrow, it will go some way to balancing out FI/CO.
If you dont give them Fi/Co pods, give them atleast the chance to fake a bit
Thats why i would like to see Arrowhead as Normal.
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 09:45   #180
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Re: R31 shipstats

What kind of changes are you looking at making in the next set atm Gate? And when can we expect a updated set?
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 10:46   #181
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Re: R31 shipstats

I'm on it now, had the funeral yesterday and now that's out of the way things should be faster.

I'm planning on having a bigger mess around today to try and improve the FR fleets.

The best way to balance out FI/CO is to have very tasty alternatives. If, for example, a lot of xan/ter/etd go for CR/BS fleets then there will be lots of anti FI/CO about.



Atm, I think ter CO is probably overpowered. You can sink 70% of your resources into CO and 30% into dragons. The EMP fleets will struggle to get through so many CO, as will xand killers (especially with the salvage bonus). Terrans won't try it and dragons are exceptional anti CR/BS - your only real vulnerability is massive teamups or cath CR. I might weaken the dragon defensively to compensate for this
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 14:22   #182
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
What's the point of the mantis? It fires before nothing. What's the point of xan fr? It can only roid caths and it's not an option defensively. What's the point of terran? It doesn't seem sustainable, no way to secure yourself defensively and your attacking options are go terran bs and accept the inevitable ton of fr class t1 bs def that will emerge or go co and get raped by the ton of anti-xan-co that'll get produced. There's no really effective kill fleet that can roid xan either. Fi/co/bomber/shadow and you're pretty safe. Salvage got nerfed too, I think zik needs some re-evaluating in light of that.
Done another draft here.

In response to your comments:
1) Mantis I'm going to play around with later. I'm not too depressed with it currently. If you're going CR/BS, then it gets to fire against zik and terran BS.
2) Xand FR I've added the spirit (FR -> DE/CO) to improve its attacking ability. Now you can build a fleet of 3 frigate ships and the phantom. It leaves you vulnerable to etd FR but now it can hit etd, zik and cath.
3) terran CO with dragons looks obscene. Haven't decided how to solve that. As for BS: I'm thinking of messing around with the CR/BS somehow to strengthen it a bit. Possibly make kraken init 19 but that might uber them.
4) Killfleets hitting xand - the idea is to make them vulnerable to ter BS but shadow is currently sick against them. Might put shadow init behind dragon and move etd BS behind shadow.


Also changed zik DE class killer to DE/FI target at init 3 to guage the reaction. This means you can build corsair/FR/DE. Is a little overpowered against cath, possibly a FR->DE killship would solve this.

Also thinking of introducing a CR->CR/DE stunner for the caths.
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 14:36   #183
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Re: R31 shipstats

I dont think Ter CO looks too good, the init is slow so its basically gonna be the same as ter fr has been, a tank.

Not sure I like the change of the Brigand, makes zik very strong since they are practically immune versus two classes.
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 14:51   #184
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Re: R31 shipstats

Few things I've noticed so far.

1) 10 zik ships total?
2) There's no real counter to Cath FI raiding, everything that T1s them is their T1. (Add Zik FI, that targets FI - CO Stealing + Zik FI pod? Might be crazy late game. This may cause targeting changes on either the Cutlass or the Thief ... God so much work from one thing lol)
3) Hard to gauge EMP effectiveness without gun numbers.

I'll continue looking it over, maybe I missed something that makes these points incorrect.
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 14:57   #185
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Re: R31 shipstats

People tend to be very 'unpro' to zik having fi\co pods.

Im not TOO worried about cath fi, its going to be great as always but eventually theres just going to be too much flack around for them to land on a regular basis. But yeah there is alot of T1 -CO T2 - FI
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 15:03   #186
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Re: R31 shipstats

bomber & gryphon init increased so fireblade fires first?

as terran and xan would look likely to be most popular races with bombers/gryphons being standard ally defence ships, etd cr will have real issues landing, especially considering shadows and dragons are both very powerful anti cr.

can marauder be changed to normal please!!!
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 15:08   #187
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Re: R31 shipstats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psi_K View Post
1) 10 zik ships total?
They have 8 'mainline' ships. I could give them another one to bring them in line with everyone else but I don't think it's required.


Quote:
2) There's no real counter to Cath FI raiding, everything that T1s them is their T1. (Add Zik FI, that targets FI - CO Stealing + Zik FI pod? Might be crazy late game. This may cause targeting changes on either the Cutlass or the Thief ... God so much work from one thing lol)
I don't think it's really an issue since they're mainly EMP. The killer is a late shooter and is just doing the same thing as the other 2 FI anyway.

Quote:
3) Hard to gauge EMP effectiveness without gun numbers.
That's why the stupid EMP system needs changing to EMP armour/dmg :/

On the whole, figures are going to be similar to this round.


EDIT: Zik FI/CO is a bad bad bad idea IMO. I tried it in my first set of stats, and it was horrendous - ziks were overpowered.

Marauder killer I'm unsure of. I prefer ziks to steal where possible.

Thatcher: that's what the paladin (ED: corrected, ty Thatcher) is there for. I'm considering giving it a criminal amount of EMP efficiency since it only targets one class. I'm a little worried about the shadow/dragon I admit. Moving Guardian back to BS class might work but I'm still not sure, since that nerfs DE.


EDIT2: Feel free to pm me comments if you can't be bothered to put them here. I'm trying to avoid IRC since it kills a lot of hours and I'm trying to learn my exams.
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 15:08   #188
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Re: R31 shipstats

Why is tycoon init 19?
imo non zik stealers should not have lower init than ziks. It's just as gay as anti-fi BS.
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 15:13   #189
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Marauder killer I'm unsure of. I prefer ziks to steal where possible.
zik bs/cr is not an option without it i think, stealing a bunch of usless fr/de on attacks would be a constant pain, maybe make it target just Fr?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate View Post
that's what the avenger is there for. I'm considering giving it a criminal amount of EMP efficiency since it only targets one class.
what ship do you mean by 'avenger' as i dont see it on stats, do you mean paladin? if so i conceed the point.
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 15:15   #190
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Re: R31 shipstats

Can anyone else spot a ship named avenger?

And even if you dont move Guardian back Gate, etd DE still is a bit shit.
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 15:23   #191
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Re: R31 shipstats

Dumb question.

How do I see how much the EMP ships freeze?
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 15:39   #192
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Dumb question.

How do I see how much the EMP ships freeze?
You don't atm. The calculations are stupidly long winded so I iterate when I put them into the game. (ie I put in rough numbers, check stats analysis and then change those rough numbers until stats analysis gives me the efficiencies I want). Because of the stupid stupid STUPID system we have atm, they won't be on until put into the game. Expect similar levels to this round, but the Paladin will probably have higher than avg efficiency.

Isilx: etd DE on its own is weak, but an FR/DE mix can be mean. More modifications this evening I expect.
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 16:18   #193
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Re: R31 shipstats

I quite like the changes, which generally makes the medium classes viable again.
btw I assume it is a mistake that the Minotaur is a Roid Eating MONSTER with a D/C of 600!!
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 16:28   #194
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Re: R31 shipstats

Terran co won't be overpowered. Nothing firing that late is going to end up overpowered heh. Personally on the newest stats I think zik's efficiencies are still too low (50% less salvage man!), ter need something to make that fr/de fleet viable and etd just look weak overall.
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 16:40   #195
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Terran co won't be overpowered. Nothing firing that late is going to end up overpowered heh.
My worry wasn't so much on the attack*, but the fleetcomp you can build with it. 70-80% of your value in CO and 20-30% in dragons makes for a very tough planet to hit.

Quote:
Personally on the newest stats I think zik's efficiencies are still too low (50% less salvage man!), ter need something to make that fr/de fleet viable and etd just look weak overall.
I'll get on that.

Part of my approach to stats is to look at the permutations of attack vs defence and make a little table showing what can attack what. Last time I did this the table had 50 elements. With these extra fleetcomps & pods it now has 196 elements so naturally balance will take longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
btw I assume it is a mistake that the Minotaur is a Roid Eating MONSTER with a D/C of 600!!
Oops!


*I expect it to be hard to satisfactorily stop, but we went through this last time. People told me terran FI/CO would be overpowered and xand CR would be awful so I overcompensated. :/
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 21:24   #196
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Re: R31 shipstats

I HATE the brigand, was it specifically built to stop cat as it really dammages their de fleet and also damages their fi fleet much more than it does xan? if you want to make it target xan it needs to be fr as it will be firing before the BANSHEE (phantom *name gripe again!*), as de it is there to stop cat's as they have to emp through fr to get to it, I thought that that was the job of the Tycoon.
And imo you have only taken half measures towards making fr/de playable, you have made it so they can roid each other with really wierd fr holes, how is this helpful when most of the universe will be fi/co/cr/bs?
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Unread 9 Apr 2009, 21:28   #197
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Re: R31 shipstats

Any chance for a updated set of stats?

Yeah I have to agree with booji, the brigand is a bit of a overkill atm.
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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 00:04   #198
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Why is tycoon init 19?
imo non zik stealers should not have lower init than ziks. It's just as gay as anti-fi BS.
Just to add more "thoughts"

Tycoon init 20, corsair init 20 and thief init 19.

Thoughts by the l33t people?
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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 14:48   #199
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Re: R31 shipstats

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I HATE the brigand, was it specifically built to stop cat as it really dammages their de fleet and also damages their fi fleet much more than it does xan?
I don't see what the problem is here.
You're okay if it rapes xan but not cath?

Maybe it's intended to do what it does so that Xan FI also are bad defenders against it when it's attacking?

Basically, what it boils down to is a ship too slow to defend against both Cath and Xan FI. So it's a DE that fires at DE first. Nothing too bad there.
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Unread 10 Apr 2009, 14:52   #200
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Re: R31 shipstats

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Originally Posted by Psi_K View Post
I don't see what the problem is here.
You're okay if it rapes xan but not cath?

Maybe it's intended to do what it does so that Xan FI also are bad defenders against it when it's attacking?

Basically, what it boils down to is a ship too slow to defend against both Cath and Xan FI. So it's a DE that fires at DE first. Nothing too bad there.
The original reason for it firing at fi was obviously to take on the phant not cats, thats just a by-product....
U obviously did not play this round, the DE class pillager was Ascendancys defence ship vs Fi/Co
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