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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 16:29   #251
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Fast defence is fine as long as the attacking fleet has the means to counteract it within reason. An example of this not working so well was the corsair which made life miserable for cats in round 13 due to the crapness of tulas.
I myself like the idea of some smaller ships targeting large (cr/bs) classes.

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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 19:25   #252
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Re: Stat changes for R15

sorry to say this but i think these aint best for the stats. terran now have even better defence against cr whitch with dragons was allready a problem. zik now owns cr like it's nothing. but cr fleet ogt a bit stronger by the new entry of the black widow. xan dies when it now sees big ships maybe bs will be not as much but cr will still kill the xan. xan now has a very strong fi fleet whitch is cheap but dies fast. terran now only have to fear cath co all others have too less power to even get through. making cutters init 4 is useless since arrows shoot first and will kill them.
i think these atm aint the best of the bunch

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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 21:17   #253
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Re: Stat changes for R15

First of all, Terrran is still a suckage fleet for defence for the fact that their dmg sucks.. And ehmm Clipper and Tarant shoot same time so.. One more thing that Arrowheads are acutally supposed to kill cutters before they shoot, otherwise Xan FI fleet is garbage.. Maybe the Harpy is too strong, 60 arm/cost and 40 dmg/cost, nice

Suggestions to tweak Xans are:

Decrease Ghost intiative to 6, strengthen PK, Ghost and Vsh 'more' .. (For the fact that Ghost is only anti-CR, PK only anti-BS and Vsh only anti-FR for Xans, while they have 2 anti-FI, 2 anti-CO and 2 anti-DE and honestly I can't see why .. Maybe for the fact that the Xan FI/CO fleet is all needed for attack .. As They have a lot variety in the classes defending them .. FI, FR, DE, BS, CO.. YOu see my point ?)
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Unread 6 Oct 2005, 16:24   #254
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by hylands
sorry to say this but i think these aint best for the stats. terran now have even better defence against cr whitch with dragons was allready a problem. zik now owns cr like it's nothing. but cr fleet ogt a bit stronger by the new entry of the black widow. xan dies when it now sees big ships maybe bs will be not as much but cr will still kill the xan. xan now has a very strong fi fleet whitch is cheap but dies fast. terran now only have to fear cath co all others have too less power to even get through. making cutters init 4 is useless since arrows shoot first and will kill them.
i think these atm aint the best of the bunch

greets hylands

I agree that xan def versus capital ships is still the biggest weakness the xan faces, however i dont really get the cutter comment, since even at its current form it forces xans to send arrowheads along (no ally def versus cath-co ahoy) and in such situation anti-co defense becomes feasible aswell, its usually easier to cover a roiding fleet tha relies to two ship classes than covering a roiding fleet that is purely of one ship class. If you change arrowhead init to 4 or even higher you practically make zik immune to xan fi and they wouldnt even have to steal a single ship to achieve that.
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Unread 7 Oct 2005, 14:37   #255
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Re: Stat changes for R15

========================================================
New stats version
Most(all?) changes:
Gryhpon Armour 80->85
Syren init 7->6
Widowmaker Damage 80->75
Tarantula init 6->8
Tarantula armour 210->220
Ghost init 7->6
Bomber init 7->5
Peackeeper init 8->7

Corsair init 6->5
Clipper init 6->7
All steal ships -> init 40
Marauder armour 140->145
Rogue armour 230->240
===============================================================
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Unread 7 Oct 2005, 18:54   #256
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Looking at these stats I would say that cath cr has gone from one extreme to the other. Whereas last round roiding xans was very easy for cath with cr to being virtually impossible. This also leads to cath cr being very useless against all races if there are plenty of xans (like normal) as the ghost is a 2 tick ally def ship and although it isn't the best xan ship with the improvement to the frig fleet they will be built in very large numbers, making cath cr redundant.

I actually have a feeling that you may have meant to change roach/tarantula targetting around as this would seem to make much more sense than the current stats.
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Unread 7 Oct 2005, 18:57   #257
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I'd love to change the Tarantula to EMP, but that'd mean 2 Cath ships EMPing Fr - the Tarantula and the Viper. Cath's Fi/Co fleet is now probably stronger than the Cr fleet due to the Clipper / Ghost, but the Tula isn't exactly a *weak* ship, and can probably scare off smaller amounts of defence.
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Unread 7 Oct 2005, 21:31   #258
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Seems nice for the time being

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Unread 7 Oct 2005, 22:34   #259
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Well as I see it the cath cr fleet is going to be pretty useless. The tara may work to prevent frig incs but it will not prevent defence. If a defence ship kills the ship it is firing at first then it will never be stopped from going on defence, even if a lot are lost. That is the thing about planetarion, attackers don't lose ships just to kill defence ships unless it is part of fully fledged war. Cath may occasionally be able to hit xans by making them run, but the chance of no defence is so low now that there will probably be a lot of ghosts and clippers built that the cruiser fleet becomes useless when compared the the pretty effective co fleet.

Xan and Zik have had their secondary fleets improved. Cath have had their primary fleet massacred.
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Unread 7 Oct 2005, 22:37   #260
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I've arguably weakened all the primary fleets at the expense of improving the secondary fleets.
But Cath Cr is definately weaker, I guess. Before, you just built Roaches and launched at someone
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Unread 7 Oct 2005, 22:45   #261
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Well xan fi is similar quality to last round (which isn't great but not bad) and the zik bs fleet has been reduced in power a little. However they are both fleets that can be used. The cat cr fleet just isn't a viable attack fleet now.

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Unread 8 Oct 2005, 09:55   #262
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I think it is quite good right now, Tarant is a better ship that both Clipper and Ghost.. So it is quite a deal of numbers.. And also a combo attack between Zik and Cath would be pretty nice, it will make a pretty a hard thing to cover .. I am saying that Cath CR is more likely as all other's primary fleets.. You need to build more than 2 ships to get a roiding fleet.. As now you need both Roaches and Tarant.. Same as all others.. Xan FI fleet needs 3 ships and stil can be doomed by CO.. So Xan FI/CO fleet need acutally 4 ships .. So it is quite fair I think (Same goes for all fleets..)
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Unread 9 Oct 2005, 16:40   #263
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I am glad the Havoc and Speed rounds are finished, I have actually have time to read up on PA forums again . And appologies for appocomaster and kloopy for not finishing the private beta, playing Havoc and the beta and spotting faults was bitting off more than I can chew.

OK looking at stats first of all I like the idea of SKs being in a different class to the main attacking fleets
Stops random building wiping. Some ziks will have matching sks ships to attacking fleets via stealing but that can't be helped.Still no major changes on def/attack the same race as yourself, however it will make a few attacks more interesting.

Terrans getting incs.

xan fi fleets providing you have high harpy count they wont launch at you.
xan frigs. still have an anti frig ship that gets a free lunch... no eta anti frig but still okay
Cath co ships the gryphons no longer get wiped. that helps reduce bashing new players.
Cath cr. will makes things a bit more interesting as not one cath cr landed on me in R14.(Went terran)
Zik. frig same as xan frig
zik bs/cr. Just have a high chim/dragon count to put them off as with R14 (drakes will also help)

Xans

Terran de... only if you have a very low pulsar and bomber count will a terran dream of it.
terran bs/cr.. there is no longer the double jepordy of the wyvern nicking your pks.
Just need to make sure you have enough ghosts and pks.
Cath /fico... still no worrys there 2 zero loss def ships. (will make a xan think hmm arrows or lancers)
Cath cr... the pks have been increased in armour which makes it harder for them to land.
zik frig.. only a low vsh count will a zik think about it.
zik cr/bs... have a high pk and ghost count to put them off. pretty much like R14

Caths

Terran de... Bit more to worry about here drakes now hit Crusier still only have roach to freeze now.
Terran bs/cr..More effective having bws as cr and the widowmaker being the new bs def ship.
Xan fi/co... a good supply of beetles will put them off having guardians and spiders will put off arrows being sent.
Xan frig... might be a problem in begining to mid round as vipers are only emp and need them to take the nip out of the ghost so the tarantulas can finish up. or go full freeze on xan due to low armour.
Zik frig... as with the xan but expect heavy incs from them as co ships get stolen if they cant freeze them all or surviving Tarantulas wipe them.
Zik bs/cr I predict less landing on cath with the widowmakers and tartantulas and no change to the tarantulas

Zik.
xan fi/co...the cutter will be effective against them unless the xan brings arrowheads with him.
quicker you can steal anti fi and co the better
xan frig... only if they are after xp and not their ships.
terran de... the one to worry about especially ones with a good number of pegs and chims.
terran bs... only way to def this is to have a good number of cr ships and buccs the terran will generally
roids but terrans hate losing bs
cath co.. unlikely unless there is enough vipers to freeze your frigs.
cath cr... have as many different bs ships as possible as the to spread the emp damage(bws) that means stealing. so you maybe able to steal some of them ships. oh and plenty of rogues.

I do think the v16 will be interesting. And a big thumbs up there.
But I do see more "double teaming" happening in attacks tho.
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Unread 9 Oct 2005, 16:55   #264
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
The cat cr fleet just isn't a viable attack fleet now.
I see where you coming from. Against zik you will need a good whack of Bws to make it landable especially with stolen bs. having the anti bs damage ship as a def ship is a good would reduce incs I could be wrong however. Against terran it becomes a bit more interesting as the BW (old tarantula but emps) gets the first hit in intead of the dragon.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 14:55   #265
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Re: Stat changes for R15

version 17 is up, http://www.geocities.com/appocomaster/newstats17.htm

corsair is now init 5, clipper hits battleships, and zik bs armour has been slightly upped.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 15:06   #266
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Re: Stat changes for R15

seen the new stats, corsair init down to a 5 gives the zik a fighting chance against a terran de fleet, similar thing with the wyvern versus the clipper

might be more balanced on zik v terran now
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 16:40   #267
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Re: Stat changes for R15

whos going to build terran de with two zero loss def ships aginast it and the usual whoreish amount of pulsars anyway?

And 3 destroyers targeting their bs, so i have to send cruisers if i want to land? At least it was possible to flak through ghosts in r14, now with 3/4 races having a kill ships which are all fairly efficient (especially the chim for flak against syrens) its gonna be hard to find a worthwhile land.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 16:45   #268
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I am. Never had much nixes deffing vs. me last round. Pulsars can be a problem. But you have to keep in mind that FI are the Xan main roiding fleet, atleast that is my experience. So often pulsars will be out or atleast not around to defend an gal or an alliancemate. My DE fleet was almost more succesfull then my BS fleet last round and I almost was top 100 roidcapwise (aswell as roidloss, but that's a different story).
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 18:11   #269
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I agree with VeX. I think terran DE fleet is somewhat fooked now, gettin defence against ir really shouldnt be a problem. Sure most of the ships shooting at it is useless ships, but theyre still untargetted by the DEs.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 19:54   #270
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Re: Stat changes for R15

While I'm not certain the stats are balanced as is, I personally think it is better to encourage (if not force) a player to include more than one type of ship in an attack to maximize effectiveness. This leads to a greater challenge for attack and defense and promotes strategic thinking rather than just building as many fighters, battleships, etc. as one can and sending them at the enemy. I do think, however, that each race should be equally required to send more than one class, while at the same time admiting I wouldn't be able to balance the stats in such a way if I tried.
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 21:23   #271
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Hmmmmm.. One word.. Corsai back to 6.. At least that will leave a gap for Ziks are valnurable and also, their are 2 ticks for alliance defence so it is kinda fair.. And Doh, they can steal anti-DE ships easy I think.. (espiecially at start)
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Unread 10 Oct 2005, 21:57   #272
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Half-Baatezu
While I'm not certain the stats are balanced as is, I personally think it is better to encourage (if not force) a player to include more than one type of ship in an attack to maximize effectiveness. This leads to a greater challenge for attack and defense and promotes strategic thinking rather than just building as many fighters, battleships, etc. as one can and sending them at the enemy. I do think, however, that each race should be equally required to send more than one class, while at the same time admiting I wouldn't be able to balance the stats in such a way if I tried.

I agree mate, sorry i forgot to put this in my original post. Branching into two class attack fleets for effectiveness should be encouraged, but not just forced upon one race as they are here.

Fair enough if it was your secondary fleet, but I wouldnt want to have to suicide my cr everytime I want to attack someone just so my BS don't get thier arseholes busted. As things are, combining class pod fleets just isnt worth it, and until we (appoco :P) can think of a set of stats in which two class podding is more effective, it should'nt be attepmted sort of half arsed. I personally wouldnt expect to see this for r15.

Dont get me wrong appoco mate your doing a good job, i'm just trying to add some constructive criticism.
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Unread 11 Oct 2005, 00:13   #273
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Although the stats (V17) Look balanced for the begining it may lead to zik over empowerment in mid to end of the round.
By the sounds of it not having a public beta might be a risky one. (http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=187751), Last thing anyone can be bothered with is mid round stat change...

At the very least the private betas should be intensive on stat testing.
The PA team have really done some nice features and additions to R15 Nice one lads
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Unread 11 Oct 2005, 00:29   #274
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Re: Stat changes for R15

im for public betas, but that means a lower number of rounds squeezed into x amount of time, reducing jolts income (oh noes.)

and we all know mid round stat changes will never happen
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Unread 11 Oct 2005, 01:57   #275
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by veX
Quote:
Originally Posted by Half-Baatezu
While I'm not certain the stats are balanced as is, I personally think it is better to encourage (if not force) a player to include more than one type of ship in an attack to maximize effectiveness. This leads to a greater challenge for attack and defense and promotes strategic thinking rather than just building as many fighters, battleships, etc. as one can and sending them at the enemy. I do think, however, that each race should be equally required to send more than one class, while at the same time admiting I wouldn't be able to balance the stats in such a way if I tried.

I agree mate, sorry i forgot to put this in my original post. Branching into two class attack fleets for effectiveness should be encouraged, but not just forced upon one race as they are here.

Fair enough if it was your secondary fleet, but I wouldnt want to have to suicide my cr everytime I want to attack someone just so my BS don't get thier arseholes busted. As things are, combining class pod fleets just isnt worth it, and until we (appoco :P) can think of a set of stats in which two class podding is more effective, it should'nt be attepmted sort of half arsed. I personally wouldnt expect to see this for r15.

Dont get me wrong appoco mate your doing a good job, i'm just trying to add some constructive criticism.
i agree completly with the idea that it should be favorable to send more than one class of ship (as stated in my previous posts)

i would also like to point out that it is not just terrans where this is the case you will find that it is preferable for the xan to add co to their fi for the cat to add to their cr and maybe their fi to their co and the zik almost always have to send both cr and bs to be effective

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Unread 11 Oct 2005, 01:59   #276
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Re: Stat changes for R15

my expireances of beta i tried to be as unbiased as i can
but as i only used one race it is hard to get the full overveiw

alright brutal honesty of the ship stats in this beta so far in my experience (this is written by someone who used zik so i cannot tell u what it was like playing as the other races just what defending and attacking them was like):

first the frigate fleets:
both were powerful although the xan one was not used much in the few cases where i saw them being used they were devastating especially against zik (not complaining every race has to have strengths and weaknesses) as xan fr fleets of players about half my value were getting most through my defence when i defended against them.

the zik fr were now a useable fleet but not as effective as non ziks assumed especially in the view of just flak the vipers and steal the beetles as if i show u the unit scans of the top zik players u will c that they have managed to pick up not many cat co for the amount of fr they have e.g.:

Beetle 49 Viper 124 with Cutlass 732 Thief 500
Beetle 1299 Viper 1790 with Cutlass 1014 Thief 1408
Beetle 301 Viper 187 with Cutlass 486 Thief 529
Beetle 106 Viper 83 with Cutlass 302 Thief 606
etc...etc

but i think weakening the fr fleets any more will make them to weak i think they are both just about right

cat co was as strong as ever except with the improved zik fr fleet they now had to expect some losses from the steal ships which they did not last round and also the change of the co init so they shoot after spiders means they are no longer as effective against other cats but this effect should cancel as all same race effects normally do cause anything they can do to u, u can do to them. The cat co are mainly hindered by zik and cat combining in defence but combinations of races should win especially as they come from 2 players against one.

Unfortunately i saw very little terran but what i did see was as hard as ever

another unfortunate thing was that what i saw of the xan fi was disappointing. Not because of the stats (in my opinion) but mainly for two reasons first being that i mainly saw them against zik cat combos and the second being that the xans built to many sents and not enough vsk and pulsars and i did not see many arrowheads sent with the fi to attack.

unfortunately in this beta the cat non co was used by about 3 accounts so i did not see how effective they were in practice

finally the zik cr/bs again i did not see this tested properly as almost all the action i saw with them was a very one sided defence against smaller fleets although the xan fr managed to get right past them several times with relatively few casualties.

i only got landed on twice in this beta but as this was not the purpose that is to be expected (although i did not see why i should not enjoy myself while testing things so did do some normal PA stuff but not as much as i would if it was more aimed at playing than testing) in those to landings one was a cat co that would have got through if a cat and a zik had not decided to defend and the other was a xan fr fleet that had a very successful landing

Last edited by Cowmando; 11 Oct 2005 at 02:59.
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Unread 11 Oct 2005, 02:21   #277
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Re: Stat changes for R15

sorry about writing an essay but at leist you've only got to read it i had to write it

i would like to hear your opinions on this (honist as possable)

also i would like to point out that the top 10 (not including admins) were 4 cat, 2 zik, 2 ter and 2 xan
this was at tick 712 (almost half way through a real round but the fact that people were testing stuff instead of just playing must be taken into account)
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Unread 11 Oct 2005, 12:23   #278
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Some good points there,

The thing is with xan fi is that although they may go sent heavy the Vsh is their only def against frigs, so to prevent zik or even xan frigs they have got to have a good supply to put off would be attackers.

A good ratio of sents/vsh/pulsar/daggers is needed (comments from xan pros welcomed) to get the best results.
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Unread 11 Oct 2005, 17:34   #279
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Re: Stat changes for R15

hm i dont like the peg init, it seems a little slow to me also, i love the idea of keeping the STR killers outside of a 'traditional' roiding fleet . Removing the 'all-races-steal' was a good idea, but hmm i think the pred needs a little more armor (especially since its now a de) , same with the galleon, can u make it a little bit better?
other than that /me like
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Unread 11 Oct 2005, 18:42   #280
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I read somewhere earlier about the pulsar and pegasus init should be the same, so they act as a deterrent. Franctly I agree with this. Give both the same init, or please lower the harpies init, so they act better as anti-FI (shoot at the same time as the sentinel).

I also have a problem with the extremely high init of the wyvern, all other terran ships are within the init 5 - 8 range. So why is chosen for this high init?

I do like the SK's in a different class, eventhough it was promised a while ago, it opens up oppurtunities to counter them specificly.

The stats vs. thusfar looks good, allthough it could use some tweaks still
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Unread 11 Oct 2005, 21:26   #281
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Re: Stat changes for R15

You can't just say put that ship intiative same as that one.. Their is balancing issues, as it is right now, Xan FI fleet already suck for the fact that they need 4 ships to get through and in huge amounts I am afraid (other than the pods).. And making the Peg fire same time as Pulsars will just put them to the ground .. Same goes for decreasing Harpie's intiative.
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Unread 12 Oct 2005, 00:13   #282
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Re: Stat changes for R15

As much as I despise Xan fighter fleets (having played Ziks myself last round and having never had enough frigates to actually steal something), I agree with x-dANGEr that it would be a mistake to put Peg init below or equal to Puls init. Also, keep in mind that lowering it would completely negate the only viable Zik defense against DE fleet. It doesn't help to try and steal when the Chimera's wipe out all your pirates.
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Unread 12 Oct 2005, 00:21   #283
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Damn guys, that was the general idea! I want to see terran as the dominant race once again!
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 02:23   #284
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Thumbs up Re: Stat changes for R15

looking at the beta testing ter vs xan, i found the de was a bit fragile against pulsars / bombers especially, cr bs syrens cost could be lowered a little bit or attack should be increased a little bit to compinsate the looses. Sents / fi vs Harpies looks good aswell as tzens vs harpies.

testing ter vs cath / zik to be continued...

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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 02:40   #285
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
I agree with VeX. I think terran DE fleet is somewhat fooked now, gettin defence against ir really shouldnt be a problem. Sure most of the ships shooting at it is useless ships, but theyre still untargetted by the DEs.

Yes, they are untargetted by nixes, well, send DE with gryphons, gryphons can shoot the nixes BEFORE the nixes shoot, and, u argue, well, what about anti frig, anti frig aka vsharraks are mostly used by xan fi attack fleets and wont be around most of the time, and the other anti frigs don't make ally def etas. So, u can actually attack with de....
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 02:41   #286
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddies
looking at the beta testing ter vs xan, i found the de was a bit fragile against pulsars / bombers especially, cr bs syrens cost could be lowered a little bit or attack should be increased a little bit to compinsate the looses. Sents / fi vs Harpies looks good aswell as tzens vs harpies.
http://beta.planetarion.com/show_news.pl?id=37
http://beta.planetarion.com/show_news.pl?id=38
http://beta.planetarion.com/show_news.pl?id=35
http://beta.planetarion.com/show_news.pl?id=34
testing ter vs cath / zik to be continued...
Also, pais, not every1 reading the forums has access to the beta server, Only some of us here are on it.. so they may not be able to view those news entries.. why don't u parse it for them...
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 11:35   #287
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I'm afraid I've started just updating them in the beta. I think I've managed to transfer all the updates correctly to version 18
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 11:43   #288
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I'm afraid I've started just updating them in the beta. I think I've managed to transfer all the updates correctly to version 18
I would like to see a beta with like 20% of the players are zik, the remaining 80% get distributed between the other races, just to see how strong or weak the zikonians really are. I have a feeling that with the latest downgrade they will do fine, if played correctly. It is hard to judge that with 2/3 of the playing beta testers going zik since that removes one of the very basic zik advantages: stealing other races ships in decent numbers.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 11:50   #289
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Im all for this idea, we need an accurate picture of how zik are going to do since they are the hardest (imo) race to balance.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 11:51   #290
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Zik might not be the smallest race this round. I hope the people realise how hard Zik are to play. I'm not changing the race / resetting the planet of 100 people who suddenly want to not go Zik because they realise they're getting trodden into the fabric of the universe*.

*Zik are very playable, but unlike some rounds you can't just build 3 ships and then race up the ranks. Well, I hope not
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 13:08   #291
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Why o why do Cathaar always have to pay a heavy price after they had 1 okeyish round :/.

The effectiveness of the CO fleet has been pretty much removed. They can't kill anymore, which means anyone is always willing to send defence, both Cath and Xan have free kill ships (Guardian & Lancer) that make them a offlimit target. Next to that Spider now stuns CO before they fire, which means a bunch of those in defence will most likely make Gryphons or Thiefs eat your CO. If you can't get out of gal def, you can always wait on some ingal flak, which will most likely be available since its not a waste anymore for Terrans to build Gryphons. Also Ziks won't mind defending with their FR, as they won't lose them anyway, and you still have a good chance on ingal Lancers and Guardians (buddypack). Its gonna be expensive roiding (except for the start i guess).

As for CR fleets, they pwetty much are screwed with the Ghost having a lower initiative then the Tarantula. It means 'free' kills for the defence, and will make roiding for the CR fleet expensive, if not impossible. The only target left for Cathaar would be other Cathaars or Ziks, because stunning a Ter DE and a Ter BS fleet is simply not an option due to their high armour. Unless you want to hit small Terrans ofcourse. There are always quite some ppl playing Xan, and they will have 'alot' of anti-CR / BS, since they have the initiative advantage there.

Part of Cathaars succes last round was due to the fact they were underestimated at the start of the round (with the crap performance of r13 in mind). Coming round most options for Cathaar will lead to them having to go for costy roids, while at the same time, they are still most desirable targets for free roids. These stats kill Cathaar's attack power, while they wil remain to be a open target for most pod classes. I wish Cathaar would go back to last round stats, they were ok, ppl know what they can do now and will expect it, a slight upgrade to the pk was about the only thing needed, with the removal of the stealing scorp Cat are now a open invite to Fi attacks and will be raped to the ground :/
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 13:56   #292
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I can see Caths using Fi/Co fleets to great effect. I don't think they've been nerfed. My main worry is that they're now weaker vs Fr, and Zik will get 0 loss stealing. I know the Cath Cr fleet isn't as effective because they can't hit Xan, but they can hit everyone else now. Tarantulas aren't the weakest ship, and if there's not enough ghosts to do even mild damage, Tarantulas have a habit of crushing them - a few people in the beta noticed this.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 14:41   #293
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
I can see Caths using Fi/Co fleets to great effect. I don't think they've been nerfed. My main worry is that they're now weaker vs Fr, and Zik will get 0 loss stealing.
I don't really see how, like you said, the one thing they have to target, they are weaker against. Both Ter and Zik have FR anti-CO, and Cath and Xan have free killers. With ingal def (which last round most time messed up a CO attack fleet) being made ALOT easier with the EMP'ing Viper there is basicly an extremely small chance they get through. The main problem is they can't kill anything, thus why not defend against them? worst case you get no salvage / free new ships. And why add the Spider to the attack fleet? at best it stops only 1 possible defence ships (the arrowhead), it doesn't give them more targets, just a slightly better chance on getting no out of gal defence.

Quote:
I know the Cath Cr fleet isn't as effective because they can't hit Xan, but they can hit everyone else now. Tarantulas aren't the weakest ship, and if there's not enough ghosts to do even mild damage, Tarantulas have a habit of crushing them - a few people in the beta noticed this.
heh, i don't see Cathaar hit Terran personally. In all rounds i've played as Cathaar (and that is all rounds except for r7 & r10), i never even had to look at Terran targets, as their armour simply is WAY to high to bother EMP'ing it all. Remember that when hitting Terran you have to stun both the DE and BS fleet (which are the Terran attack classes and thus will be available in high quanteties), this means you can even hit a decent sized Terran for good gains and few losses. You have to EMP like 60-75% of a Terran his total fleet worth to get free roids, which is what emp is all about as you won't scare off defence like kill fleets do.

As for Tarantulas crushing Ghosts (in beta i might add, thus not really representing for a real round), that doesn't matter, fact is Ghosts fire first. I am not gonna lose half my CR fleet to to take roids and 'crush the defending Ghosts'. WIth these stats you have to focus on building a shitload of BW to get through on Terrans and Ziks (though ZIks will be relatively easy), Roach if you plan on hitting Terran. Which means you hardly will have enough Tarantula's to scare away Ghosts (that will be around in high numbers with everyone having r14 CR effectiveness in mind).

[edit]
To add to it.. Cathaar vs. Cathaar usually isn't an option, as the Scarabs will make it to easy to stop (init 1, disabling alot of the CR fleets firepower).
In r14 you could scare of Zik def and Terran def (to some extent) if you sent enough Tarantulas to do alot of damage to BS. This round there is nothing stopping them from defending, as they only get stunned (helloooo free stealing for Rogues \o/). Yes it is resource expensive to do, but as a last resort it won't be uncommon. All you have to do is deal enough damage to make it not worth for the attacker to land, and most ships can do that for free now.

Last round the CR focus was on a ship that wasn't in a normal attack fleet. The Peacekeeper wasn't a Xan podclass, thus not build alot at the start as it hampered Xan's growth to build alot of them (later attack fleets became of decent size, thus more resources available for def ships). Now they have to battle attack-class ships only, and those WILL be around in high numbers.
[/edit]

What these stats do is make it harder (or alot more expensive) for Cathaar to take roids, while they will still have their open invitation to almost any attacking fleet combo seeing they (mostly) EMP instead of kill. This means you get r13 all over again, reasonable roiding fleets, but no way to rebuild from the losses you sustain as you will have everyone just waiting inline to take the last 3 roids you have.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 14:45   #294
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by jian_yee
Also, pais, not every1 reading the forums has access to the beta server, Only some of us here are on it.. so they may not be able to view those news entries.. why don't u parse it for them...
Cheers, something I didn't take into account...DOH
I am not sure how to parser them tho. Speak to you on irc.

I have seen the V18 stats Looks like a bit of refinement has been done.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 16:12   #295
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Wohoo Wanadows.. Why can't you attack Terrans? Cath firepower is even more than terrans 'high' armor.. And eh come on, you keep saying Cath needs to build more than one ship, One of Cath's attack fleets shoot later than it's defenders.. Welcome to the tribe of races mate. All races have such problems, I know you are saying that Cath are supposed to be the strongest attack fleet, but frankly, that all what it takes to win such a game. Good alliance and good attack fleet, right ? So you are acutally saying give the top-5 to Cath and put other Caths in the worst 500..
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 19:09   #296
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by x-dANGEr
Wohoo Wanadows.. Why can't you attack Terrans? Cath firepower is even more than terrans 'high' armor.. And eh come on, you keep saying Cath needs to build more than one ship, One of Cath's attack fleets shoot later than it's defenders.. Welcome to the tribe of races mate. All races have such problems, I know you are saying that Cath are supposed to be the strongest attack fleet, but frankly, that all what it takes to win such a game. Good alliance and good attack fleet, right ? So you are acutally saying give the top-5 to Cath and put other Caths in the worst 500..
To put it short, the major reason why Cathaar need a 'strong' attack fleet compared to other races, is that EMP doesn't scare away defence. Kill and steal ships tend to make a target run if you do enough damage, where EMP doesn't. If i don't stun the ships my target has that target my fleet, he can leave them home for free kills/salvage. And even if you stun all ships that target you, if the target gets more flak in that ship class, he will still shoot your ships for free.

Now to the fun part, to hit terrans i need to target both his DE and BS fleet, that means i have to EMP through 7 high armour ships to make losses accaptable. And even if i do that, the target will hardly need any defence to start hurting my fleet. Where ppl will think twice before they rush to aid a person that has kill ships incoming, they won't if they are facing a loss-free defence against Cath (worst case your def fleet gets stunned.. oh noo!).

In theory these stats do allow reasonable targets for Cathaar, but it will be far to easy to stop Cathaars the coming round simply because there is nothing in a Cathaar fleet that can possible scare off defence.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 19:32   #297
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Well the Cath CO fleets natural opponent is prolly the Terrans, which they should roid pretty easy.

The cath CR fleets main oppenent is Zik which they should be able to roid easy.

Ofcourse IF they get defence u will get owned, but its like that for every race. I understand that caths have little kill ships now and that maybe one of their ships should be converted to a kill ship. I dont think that the cath is underpowered though, as it can easily team with any kind of race and own hard.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 19:48   #298
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Question Re: Stat changes for R15

the cath fleets seem fine to me. the co are still effective as the vipers stop any large amount of damage being done to it, it just seems like u want no loss attacks for cat. Yes later the cat co fleet might be weakend by lancers and guardians but these i think will not be built in great numbers as the cats will be building up their cr/co fleets and the xan will be building fr and pks and so these ships will not be avilable in large enough quantities to cause any major harm. The cat cr are very effective they CAN land on ter as they can stun both the bs and the de in large enough quantities to make a landing successful due to the fact that the cat cr are comparitivly cheaper enough to make this a very viable option. with the cat on cat again the scarbs wont be avliable in large enough quantities on the whole to stop you landing. zik will be very esay targets for cat cr and co although u migh expect some small losses on the co attack but you get pretty much free roids on a cr attack against zik. against xan should not be an amazing probelm as they will probley have their ghosts out as this will be very effective in attack. I would also like to point out that cath are now slightly stronger in defence now.

i think that the xan are maybe a bit over powered currently. The ghost rules the game and can only be stoped by vipers and the wyven does them some damage. If tarants survive the ghost they do return a lot of damage on them. i also feel that the pks are over powered slighly at the moment.(i'm not sure the xan might have been down power without me noticing so i might be wrong)

Please post your thoughs on the matter

Last edited by Cowmando; 14 Oct 2005 at 01:13.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 20:49   #299
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I agree that the ghosts\PKs might be a tad too good not sure though.

I also feel the terran DEs are pretty useless with: pheonix and bomber isnt targetted, pulsar shoot before, syren shoots before, roach shoot before and corsair shoot same time, so terran DEs will surely struggle big time.
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Unread 13 Oct 2005, 20:52   #300
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I disagree with Cath CR landing on terrans easy, with having both Drakes and Dragons targeting CR, most cath wouldn't dare that.

But I agree with your assesment on the Xans. I've gone over it with some people on IRC and no race can actually roid a xan without taking a significant amount of losses for it. If xans forget to build ghosts (which could happen with a lack a caths) then terrans have a chance, otherwise it would add up to pure suicide.

The only way to work around this current situation, is by teaming up. Even more then was last round.
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