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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 13:04   #201
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by rop1964
what i mean is i just cant take that playrs who are 2xto 3 time 1 opponen would constantly attack that target
for exemple a 1.5 million value planet attacking a 750k value.. till the guy got nothing left but 30roids and no ships.. or force him to keep running till he s got nothing left while other more tempting bigger planets develop! assurely you dont mean that bashing to bit a player is more appropriate than trying your skill against a player 50% bigger than you , for exp and roids.. ?? cause if you re saying if more profitable to bash down a weak player that to attack a big roid fat planet , you re looking at the ruuning away of new players on medium and long term..

cause that s what i witness in r14 all rounf long.. and many (including myself are considerering not comming back for other rounds..
i understand that its annyoing, but its infact totally irrelavent to a stat discussion. Unless we get to a point where races can only attack planets below their value cuz their attack fleets are to crap to hit anything decent (or other races are to good). You can never avoid having players 'bash' others, its part of the game. Whether they do or not is up to their own ethics in playing a game and in a way up to the ppl assigning targets to them (if that happens). There will always be ppl who won't dare to hit anything decent and will only go for the easy roids, its impossible to stop (unless you some how reduce gains for hitting lower value planets).

The only thing you can do to combat it, is to use the shipstats to your best advantage and leave yourself with a well balanced fleet. Another way to avoid alot of random 'bashing' incs is becoming a distorter heavye planet. As long as stealing is going to be free, bashing will happen, as it is easier to steal for free from a smaller planet than from a bigger one.
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 13:37   #202
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Round 14 was ****ed up by the fact that all fleets had stealships. Everyone attacked with stealships to steal ships from less active players. When you are not in an alliance, u usually dont get anything else but ingal def, and when that didnt happen and you wasnt there, your ships will get stolen when you hadnt put it on prelaunch. I pointed out this grave mistake to Appocomaster before the round along with some others, our worries were ignored and you got the situation that you got. Now Appocomaster have gotten to his senses, removed the steal option from all the races but one, so this will limit the problem to some extent, cept that the zik will prolly pwn the universe again. Now Appocomaster have made the ziks even better against FI wich was the only thing the ziks very vounerable to last time it was only zik who could steal ergo making the zik the ruler race again. So i recommend people play zik this coming round since Appocomaster obviously cant listen to logic.
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 13:45   #203
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Re: Stat changes for R15

sadly you re right.. and for what i seen in r14 , i dont expect most players to review their ethics .. which will eventually lead to players quitting..

as for the ships stat.. i ll look them up asap.. thought atm i m a bit tired (back from visiting friends.. lol)

honestly , i loved the game till mid of r14 where it bacame so obvious tha big planets did not care who they hit (going for easy roids rather than exp and score)

i just hope that the cath race dont suffer too much .. i played them in the 2 round i got in (r13 and 14) enjoyed them.. :-)
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 13:47   #204
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Lol please stop talking out of ur arse kargool. Just cause zik is the only race that can steal ships doesnt mean that they have to rule the universe.

I was zik last round, and there wasnt that many times i managed to land AND steal the targets ships at the same time. Sure zik has steal ships, but in return other races should have no problem roiding ziks.
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 14:19   #205
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I realise that there is probable too few ships targetting BS atm, and well look into that tonite.
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 14:55   #206
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Re: Stat changes for R15

ideally .. everyone would want their race ships to be the strongest, fastest, best armored ships around..
fact is.. we got to have high points and weakness.. the things is to determine what is the best ratio of ships kill per ship attacking.. is 5 cr = 3 bs.. is 10 co = 6 fr/de.. do 1k viper stronger than 700 thief? etc..
everyone will say make that ships strnger/weaker, that one best armored, better speed, etc..

i , myself play with the stats given and try to make the best of it, like it or not..
i played a cath.. and i still feel the bruised i got from all the heavy landing from all race (including other cath) but i m not complaining that they were too strong stat wise... i just said (to be clear) the players should not be allow so easy a target as only 40% of their value/score.. as it encouraged weak/medium players bashing...

but i was pleased with the ship stat in round 14.. found it challenging and fun... (until the bashing began)

i can just hope appoco resist the ppls begging for "improve stats" and keep using common sense..

though as a rule of thumb.. i would say if a bs kill 4 cr (exemple) anti bs should be make so they have the same ration of effectiveness... it s all a matter of balance ... i will look to the new stat asap.. if someone is willing to make them available in a link..
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 15:12   #207
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by rop1964
sadly you re right.. and for what i seen in r14 , i dont expect most players to review their ethics .. which will eventually lead to players quitting..

as for the ships stat.. i ll look them up asap.. thought atm i m a bit tired (back from visiting friends.. lol)

honestly , i loved the game till mid of r14 where it bacame so obvious tha big planets did not care who they hit (going for easy roids rather than exp and score)

i just hope that the cath race dont suffer too much .. i played them in the 2 round i got in (r13 and 14) enjoyed them.. :-)

that's the biggest pile of crap there is ta;D

i can speak for all of the 6:10 people who were top 10/20 and we all hit the biggest targets we could hit. first off because they had roids and secondly because they were only in our bash limits. so saying big players only hit small planets is not true AT ALL.
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 15:46   #208
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Re: Stat changes for R15

the main problem with both of the friget fleets this round was that every race could take them easy with ships they were very likly to build. Yes they probly should have been out attacking but they quite often were not. This is still the case in the new stats with all the races except ter now which is better except that the xan fr fleet still has a problem with ter but then u should really be forced to send 2 classes as this makes it more interesting and challanging.

the xan fi fleet was strong this round but probly underpowerd the new xan fi fleet looks better.

the cats having all those big kill ships will be intersting and in the beta u will probly find out if they will be over or under used.

the ziks fr fleet has been strengthed in the new stas which is good but it appears to be at the expence of the bs fleet. as now with the buc and Marauder now being lone class ships for the zik meaning that u can not use each other for flakking. also they are not really covered by any of the zik kill ships and do not really combine nicely with ether the bs or the fr. and the bs is very venerable with the low init with out the second class to other them support meaning that if the ziks attack resonable targets their losses will out weigh their gains unless attacking with other races or sitting back collecting small amounts of ships in defence while being raped by everyone this will lead to the ziks having to bash a lot to make their larger ships worthwhile. which i am not looking forward to be on the reciving end of

this is just my observaytions if i have missed something or made any errors plz point it out 2 me as this thered is about constuctive critisium
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 16:36   #209
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Round 14 was ****ed up by the fact that all fleets had stealships. Everyone attacked with stealships to steal ships from less active players. When you are not in an alliance, u usually dont get anything else but ingal def, and when that didnt happen and you wasnt there, your ships will get stolen when you hadnt put it on prelaunch. I pointed out this grave mistake to Appocomaster before the round along with some others, our worries were ignored and you got the situation that you got.
A lot of people enjoyed stealing, and had a fun round. About the only downside was that people were attacked to steal ships as much as anything else, and were playing inactively due to being out in the sunshine.

Quote:
Now Appocomaster have gotten to his senses, removed the steal option from all the races but one, so this will limit the problem to some extent,
thanks
Quote:
cept that the zik will prolly pwn the universe again.
Your point don't follow.

Quote:
Now Appocomaster have made the ziks even better against FI wich was the only thing the ziks very vounerable to last time
Since when? They weren't great against Fi, unless they stole ships. But they weren't great against quite a few things - they only had kill ships vs Co, Fr and De. Their anti Cr and Bs wasn't exactly great - Dragons and Tulas did quite well unless there were large numbers of Zik steal ships.

Quote:
it was only zik who could steal ergo making the zik the ruler race again. So i recommend people play zik this coming round
The reason Zik didn't do so well last time is because I made it harder to steal. Zik ships weren't 0 loss defence, and in over half the cases couldn't be used for alliance defence. I've not changed this strategy. They might be slightly stronger (other races won't gain so much from their higher class attacks due to lack of stealing) but I very much doubt they'll rule the universe as they did in R13.
Quote:
since Appocomaster obviously cant listen to logic.
I usually listen to logic :-)
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 16:41   #210
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowmando
the main problem with both of the friget fleets this round was that every race could take them easy with ships they were very likly to build. Yes they probly should have been out attacking but they quite often were not. This is still the case in the new stats with all the races except ter now which is better except that the xan fr fleet still has a problem with ter but then u should really be forced to send 2 classes as this makes it more interesting and challanging.
Yes i'll consider to look at the Fr problem, but Zik Fr is certainly better.

Quote:
the xan fi fleet was strong this round but probly underpowerd the new xan fi fleet looks better.
Fi can never be underpowered, I've hoped to keep it at about the same limit. I want to see how it fares.

Quote:
the cats having all those big kill ships will be intersting and in the beta u will probly find out if they will be over or under used.
They'll be used more in beta/speedgames than the real round.

Quote:
the ziks fr fleet has been strengthed in the new stas which is good but it appears to be at the expence of the bs fleet. as now with the buc and Marauder now being lone class ships for the zik meaning that u can not use each other for flakking. also they are not really covered by any of the zik kill ships and do not really combine nicely with ether the bs or the fr. and the bs is very venerable with the low init with out the second class to other them support meaning that if the ziks attack resonable targets their losses will out weigh their gains unless attacking with other races or sitting back collecting small amounts of ships in defence while being raped by everyone this will lead to the ziks having to bash a lot to make their larger ships worthwhile. which i am not looking forward to be on the reciving end of
If I haven't already mentioned it, I updated to Version 13which includes the Marauder back as Cr, at the suggestion of B|TaRa.

Quote:
this is just my observaytions if i have missed something or made any errors plz point it out 2 me as this thered is about constuctive critisium
No, you made an extremely good post Thanks.
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 16:44   #211
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
I still think the xan FI gets a beating the size of mount rushmore.. and with Xan FR not being able to hit the CR that hits them you basically leave xan with two crap attackfleets.
Hmm I saw it quite different though,
as if you add the Arrowhead to the FI fleet. You will target all ships that target you and yes I mean all except for the Scorpion which target the Arrowhead. Though, due to the ETA difference it won't matter much, will it ?
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 16:46   #212
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Re: Stat changes for R15

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Originally Posted by cypher
that's the biggest pile of crap there is ta;D

i can speak for all of the 6:10 people who were top 10/20 and we all hit the biggest targets we could hit. first off because they had roids and secondly because they were only in our bash limits. so saying big players only hit small planets is not true AT ALL.

6:10 planets wernt the only big planets out there ffs, u played a gr8 game yes but that dosnt mean u are THE ONLY big planets on the universe.

I totaly agree with Rop, Bashing was a HUGE part of r14, i rejoiced when i had my first incs from someone smaller value than me, the day before the end of the round. i was bashed from the word go and tbh it almost made me quit, and i know lots of other ppl with the same problems. ppl just went for free and easy roids and alot of the time sent some SK's aswell for the sheer hell of it. the ethics of the majority of this community atm are frankly disgusting


As for the new stats v13 things appear to be going well, cath crui fleet looks nice again a proper EMP attack fleet, same with the corvs, Vips being EMP and no stealing means no loss def but enuf vipers can cause both ziks and terrs problems.
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 16:49   #213
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Re: Stat changes for R15

oh and appoc change the fricking guard, theres still 2 entries for it, one anti des one anti bs
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 16:51   #214
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Re: Stat changes for R15

i can speak for all of the 6:10 people who were top 10/20 and we all hit the biggest targets we could hit. first off because they had roids and secondly because they were only in our bash limits. so saying big players only hit small planets is not true AT ALL.
cypher


if there s someone talking bull...t here.. it s you cypher.. surely the stat in r14 can be found by appoco , where we can see a lot of attack from 6 10 vs my own galaxy of 5 6 in r 14.. if i remember the final state of gal score .. 6 10 finish 1st overall at 60 mil+ score while 5 6 (as exemple) finish around 25 mil(probably less) so dont claim all of 6 10 player aim for glory.. that s bull.. they aim for easy roid or ship.. knowing the defenders could not resist...
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 17:29   #215
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Re: Stat changes for R15

We had a lesser active scanner with 238 scarabs and some beetles, she finished with 28 roids, and all her scarabs intact, there were 4-5 Terrans that CONSTANTLY tried to hit her to steal thoose scarabs. They didnt care about roids they only focused on stealing, now if you had been a lesser active player and being put under thoose situations I would perfectly understand WHY you didnt want to play this game anymore. We need to understand as Kal has pointed out several times that there are two types of people playing planetarion. And this round didnt help thoose who are lesser active at all. Isildurx, I recommend you play a round without being in an alliance, with logging in 4-5 times pr day to get a real look at how this game look to thoose lesser active players. (Thoose who if quits, is gonna make PA stop)
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 17:56   #216
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Re: Stat changes for R15

one word:

"Gryphons"

they suck, okay more than one word, how come you lowerd the int on them?
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 17:56   #217
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Re: Stat changes for R15

at a glance, i dont like whats happened to Terran De, theyre going to get shit all over by 0 loss xan def.
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 18:26   #218
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Lots
What does that have to do with the xan FI fleet and or the zik beign to powerful?

I am fully supporting taking away steal ships form ter\xan\cath.
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 18:57   #219
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Re: Stat changes for R15

The Xan FR fleet seems just useless. It only targets 1 anti-FR ship ... If PK is added to it, it will firstly give another class of ships to be targeted which is always bad unless they all cover eachother which doesn't happen in this case:

Ghost ---> BS (After putting away those stunned) Wyvern, Guardian and Pirate.
Bomber ---> DE (After putting away those stunned) none of the defending ships.
Tzen ---> FI (After putting away those stunned) Pulsars, Corsair and Vshs.
PK ---> CR (Of course after putting away those killed by bombers and stunned by roaches) Syren, Tarantula, Maurauder and Roaches.

Which leaves:

Viper ---> Clear shot on FR, though only EMP (no loss)
Pheonix ---> Clear shot on PK (no loss)
Bomber ---> Clear shot on PK (no loss)

Maybe a numbers game, but FR fleet sucks without PK and with PK too many counters .. Some faces such as the Vsh and Pulsar and Corsaid VS Tzen is all my numbers .. I just think it's chances are weak, because if any class is covered that attack is not worth it anymore unless their is some XP to gain ..
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 19:24   #220
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
What does that have to do with the xan FI fleet and or the zik beign to powerful?

I am fully supporting taking away steal ships form ter\xan\cath.
Because the xan fi fleet was the only fleet that could get through on ziks last round to great effect. Now Ziks can just focus on getting them some cutters and they will take out the xan fi easy (that's not including all the anti FI ships zik's will eventually steal)
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 19:32   #221
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Re: Stat changes for R15

As I said before, if a Xan wants to pwn a ZIk he easily can produce some Arrows. But I also understand your point, Xan FI did easily go through now you need to add a class to the combination which is what I think is annoying Kargool ?
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 19:39   #222
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Re: Stat changes for R15

u should realy be forced to use 2 classes any way as other wise all u have 2 do is look at the stats and see what the roiding classes for your race are and just build them and as it is zik it wont matter as their anti-co ships are fr which we be murdered by xan vsk. this means that them getting defence is your only problem. this is solved resonably soon by jgps and at the begining if they get defence u r probly screwed anyway unless attacking in a big group

i would also lke to add that cat in the new stats have a resonable but penatratable defence against cat co which is good

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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 20:59   #223
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Re: Stat changes for R15

The problem is that Zik is pretty much defended against everything else including their possibility to steal themselves defenceships. All the other races are vounerable to something and zik really isnt.
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 21:15   #224
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Re: Stat changes for R15

De > Ziks
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Unread 1 Oct 2005, 21:47   #225
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Having looked at stats fairly closely now and chatted about them in my alliance channel I've made a few conclusions:

Terran and Cath or similar in that they both have pretty good roiding fleets but can be attacked very easily by a lot of other roiding fleets. Cath is obviously more vulnerable to this than terran, being emp.

Xan will find it harder to land attacks than either terran or cath but will have a much easier job holding onto them. The only race who can really roid them is cath and if the xan has plenty of pks then def isn't very hard.

Zik will do very well IF they can steal ships. Otherwise their roiding fleets are quite lacking, with neither the bs fleet or the frig fleet having a huge chance of success (frigate being more likely than bs). However their defence is pretty solid against a couple of classes (fi and cr) without steal ships but can't defend vs the others well at all unless they steal ships. If zik can steal the right ships then they will be very powerful.

I guess this doesn't really help with development of stats but it is what I see as an overview of them so far.
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 15:30   #226
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I think that they are fairly fair right now. Just some more fixes on Xan FR fleet, as neither the Ghost or the Bomber target any ship that targets them in return. Which makes them quite useless to add in an attack fleet and at all costs it will be too valnurable even with PK as I said before. Also increase the BW intiative to 2 so that Scarabs fire before them just to tweak the anti-CR fleet a little (give more use for Dragons in def). And looking at the BS fleets, it seems that both Ter and Zik have their building killers in BS, maybe changing Behemoth to DE will make it at least look better. The Zik BS/CR supports each other quite well and I personally can't see why wouldn't they land, it will be a x vs y for that fleet combo.

P.S. Maybe it isn't fair that Zik are strong VS both Xan attack fleets. The FI one for having to classes of ships that targets them and for FR fleet for the fact that their Marauder is a no-loss defence VS it and considering that it steals, umm well.. Adding PK (-->CR) will ad the needabilty of Lancers (-->CO) may solve the problems but then it will just be a too spreaded fleet.

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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 15:46   #227
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by veX
at a glance, i dont like whats happened to Terran De, theyre going to get shit all over by 0 loss xan def.
Only 1 no-loss defence ship (Bomber) but It is not yet clear. If the Xan FR fleet has some fair improvements it might not be avaialable to defend mate. And btw: You should be happy that their is only one ship.. And yes 1 ship, as you can add the Gryphon to cover the Pheonix and yes it supports the DE fleet good.

P.S. The Pegasus is a very good ship considering it's FI killers, of course I judge that by looking at the cost/effiency (how is that spelled!) metre
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Unread 2 Oct 2005, 19:07   #228
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Yes, the Pegasus is nice.
I've done a few changes :-
All structure killers are now not the same class as a pod class,
Zik has been modified (generally slightly downgraded),
Widowmaker (De -> Bs) makes a return at the expense of a Bs -> De Guardian,
Bomber is now Fr -> Cr not Fr -> De
Linked to here
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 00:42   #229
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I couldn't read maraton posts by all but one question, why making drakes anti CR as terran have best anti CR ingame with dragons and I don't find bws are gonna stop dragons cheers
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 00:45   #230
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I genuinely wonder how effective an emp anti bs crusier will be. This could be an interesting set of stats ^^
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 09:49   #231
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Re: Stat changes for R15

First off, nice stats. However, I think you should consider changing the init of the peg and pulsar so that they are the same. It acts as a deterant for terrans who want to attack xans and it also acts as a deterant for xans who want to attack terrans. The way you have the stats now an xan can attack a terran with mass pulsars but a terran cant do the same back... Its kind of unbalanced.

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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 10:07   #232
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Yes, the Pegasus is nice.
I've done a few changes :-
All structure killers are now not the same class as a pod class,
Zik has been modified (generally slightly downgraded),
Widowmaker (De -> Bs) makes a return at the expense of a Bs -> De Guardian,
Bomber is now Fr -> Cr not Fr -> De
Linked to here
I just dont get why you insist on destroying the Xan.. Now you put them even more open for Terran DE. The way I see it, Xan is now vounerable against Terran BS, Terran DE, Zik BS and will prolly be hurt alot by Xan FI aswell.

Terran seem nice and invincible. Zik will still earn on the stealing from inactives newbies, and they also have a very good defence against Xan FI with you sending the Clipper on them.
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 12:25   #233
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Re: Stat changes for R15

The Clipper is Fr -> Cr. Did you mean the Cutter?

I've changed a few things. Terran are now more immune to Fr, but less immune to Fi and (slightly) less to Co and Cr.

Xan are better vs De. I've improved Tzen so the Tzen / Vsh balance is better.
Xan are still weaker than most to Cr and Bs, but can probably hold their own against most of the other classes.

Cathaar have been improved slightly. Zik have been (basically) untouched.
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 13:45   #234
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
The Clipper is Fr -> Cr. Did you mean the Cutter?
Uhm, ofc. not easy when there are 4 zik ships on C

Seems abit better. Like the way you have made structurekillers less attractive to use.
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 13:53   #235
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Re: Stat changes for R15

thanks.

One of these days I'll change the cutter to 1200/1200/1600 cost. I always forget
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 14:54   #236
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Xan is landing deck for Ter BS/CR combo, and the only way to fix that I think it so decrease the intiative of the Ghost a little (6) so that it fires before Syren letting PK fire at Wyvern that acutally fire at Ghosts. And also it is valnurable to Cath CR. I really thought when I started playing this game that Cath has lowest intiative and also greatest attack but EMP, and then Xan with the second lowest initave, high dmg and low armor. But in these status it seems that Xans always shoot second or with, which means they get doomed for the fact that their armor sucks.. It is also not better for them VS FR, a Xan FR fleet can be damaging for another Xan. That also goes for Ziks FR .. Also not forgetting the fact that you will rarely find Vshs home and if you do in Zik's condition, you can force them to flee or stay and die..

For Zik FR to attack Xan all it takes is loads of Cutlasse and Privateers (You can add Thievies, still less ships than what Xan need to build for the fact that Clipper isn't really neacisery as it targets CR which is ETA late to defend and same goes for the BS anti-FR). That way you have 2 choices as a Xan, leave your FI and get them stealed, or flee.. (Even with the possibilty of defence.. And anyway the Vshs will always be little considering that fact that you need Sentinals, Pulsars and Arrows to get a succesfull roiding fleet (little in the universe in general, we still have Vipers as anti-FR but let's not forget they are EMP))

The same goes for Xan FR, just more Tzens needed and enemy will flee.. SO until now Xan is weak to BS/CR/FR..
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 16:35   #237
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Re: Stat changes for R15

i have to admit you, you just crippled the Xan's. keep the ghosts Fr->Bs or we are just a free target for all...
(more so than we already seem to be)
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 16:43   #238
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I like the way that the stats are going. The idea of ziks only being able to send anti bs/cr as the only ally defence that steals is bad I think though. Ziks should have a low class fi that can steal de/cr/bs. Something like the corsair in earlier rounds targetting bigger ships with low damage. Giving Ziks a "swarm" ship.
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 16:53   #239
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Re: Stat changes for R15

oh i like most of the other decisions, i think there has been great thought into them and i know appoc has put alot of time into getting it right, and you cant please everyone, but please reconsider some of the changes to the Xans.
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 17:23   #240
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
Ziks should have a low class fi that can steal de/cr/bs. Something like the corsair in earlier rounds targetting bigger ships with low damage. Giving Ziks a "swarm" ship.
Absolutely not, that will lead to more stealing from lesser active players.
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 17:31   #241
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Absolutely not, that will lead to more stealing from lesser active players.
?
This really doesn't make any sense. If you launch an attack and it gets covered by kill ships, and you don't log on to recall, they get killed. If you launch an attack covered by steal ships, and you don't logon to recall, they get stolen. Whats the difference?

"Oh I don't want ziks to steal ships!!!11"

Well caths shouldn't be able to freeze then, and xans shouldn't be unable to be fleet scanned.
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 17:33   #242
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
I like the way that the stats are going. The idea of ziks only being able to send anti bs/cr as the only ally defence that steals is bad I think though. Ziks should have a low class fi that can steal de/cr/bs. Something like the corsair in earlier rounds targetting bigger ships with low damage. Giving Ziks a "swarm" ship.
Agrees to Kargool:

If we give a low class FI ship that targets BS/CR we will hugely dispower BS/CR fleets in the uni (You know.. 3 ticks for alliance defence is too huge..) And add if it is a steal ship lol.. Same thing as R13 .. So.. Absolutely not (even if targets DE, it still steals and have lower ETA which is bad to be)..
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 17:34   #243
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Difference between killing ships and stealing ships is kind of essential here.
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 17:37   #244
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
?
This really doesn't make any sense. If you launch an attack and it gets covered by kill ships, and you don't log on to recall, they get killed. If you launch an attack covered by steal ships, and you don't logon to recall, they get stolen. Whats the difference?

"Oh I don't want ziks to steal ships!!!11"

Well caths shouldn't be able to freeze then, and xans shouldn't be unable to be fleet scanned.
Well, a little limitaion to Zik's 'huge' stealing source of power is quite fair I think. And eh come on, you can't compare stealing to freezing or being un fleet-scannable ..
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 18:06   #245
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Re: Stat changes for R15

A zik should have at least 1 ship that can ally defence/steal a smaller eta class. Rather it be Anti fi/co/fr/de/bs/cr
Only being able to steal anti bs/cr from ally attacks really limits a ziks stealing ability. Ziks can't even participate in fleet catches on fi/co/fr/de with steal ships. 6 classes. A zik should be able to send stealing ally defence to at least 3 of them. Just my opinion.
I have to agree with the point made about a fi/co stealing cr/bs though. 3 ticks to get defence is bad. A fi/co stealing fi/co or a fr/de stealing cr/bs or a fi/co stealing de/fr is ok I think.
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 18:24   #246
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Couple of things.
In no circumstances should there be a fi or co that can target cr\bs, that would hamper the balance of the game extremely much, and pretty much keep every1 away from using cr\bs fleets.

Another thing is that i think people are forgetting how much of an advantage the low eta of xan is. Xan has got to be bad at some things to compensate for their low initiative and low eta.
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 19:02   #247
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Couple of things.
In no circumstances should there be a fi or co that can target cr\bs, that would hamper the balance of the game extremely much, and pretty much keep every1 away from using cr\bs fleets..
Odd how Pulsars (which were FI) worked against most (good) Cath CR fleets in r12, but Cath did pretty well anyway.

Your claim that there are no such circumstances is incorrect. There are, naturally, cases where it can be justified, but it requires balancing.
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Unread 3 Oct 2005, 21:19   #248
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
Odd how Pulsars (which were FI) worked against most (good) Cath CR fleets in r12, but Cath did pretty well anyway.

Your claim that there are no such circumstances is incorrect. There are, naturally, cases where it can be justified, but it requires balancing.
sorry i did not play r12, yet i think atm those circumstances must be pretty damn special
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 12:26   #249
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Yea maybe for the fact that Xans weren't that good at all for the fact that their FI was always doomed by Ziks .. Maybe ..

P.S. I didnt play all of it just late of it.. THe only round I played full is R13 I am afraid :P
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Unread 4 Oct 2005, 12:37   #250
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
sorry i did not play r12, yet i think atm those circumstances must be pretty damn special
Not particularly. Pulsar armor was low, Scorpion damage (though EMP) was reasonable. It forced Cath to divide their resources between Roach and Scorpion. Casual anti-CR def was still FR, but if the fleet was weighted too heavily on Roaches, it was easy to make the roids too expensive with Pulsars.

The key, in my opinion, is keeping in mind that every tick faster than the attack fleet, the defense fleet is, is more like two ticks more the fleet can be used (since it gets back a tick earlier). Which basically means that the amount of Fast defense needed should be at least 1.5x the amount of 'slow' defense (equal speed or 1 tick faster), in the standard case. Of course, bad fleet design shouldn't be 'protected' by this.
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