[ComradeRob]

Originally Posted by Gate

Scorpions. Sentinels. The Cath CR fleet is used far more often and is far more effective than the xand FR fleet, and so far I've seen far more examples of caths stealing CO than of xands stealing spiders. As a xand, I've quickly come to appreciate that some caths I just can't touch, despite owning the second largest xand fleet in the uni.

Caths have the same problems with some Terrans - particularly those with large Dragon fleets and significant numbers of stolen Peacekeepers/Scarabs. I don't see anything wrong with this - stealing ships requires activity, so the people who have been active and gone out to get certain ships should be rewarded by being made harder to attack.

If we want to talk about invincibility to attack, why not talk about how a large Lancer fleet makes a Xan invincibile to Cath CO?

I certainly agree that the Xan FR fleet sucks, it needs an upgrade or a complete rethink. There is certainly an argument for downgrading the Viper.

Originally Posted by Gate

It takes a mere 3.5k stolen sentinels to make a 2k roid cath able to inflict more damage in value than they lose in roids, assuming I get max cap, which I generally don't as the majority of these have a large stockpile and it takes just 9k beetles to start cutting my cap to below 500 roids, whilst I simoultaneously leave myself open to both FR and DE retals (As out of interest, I hardly ever attack with pulsars, instead sending them on def w/ ghosts).

Not if you build Bombers, though I can understand why you wouldn't (with reference to the earlier point about the Xan FR fleet).

You will still lose a lot less hitting a Cath with FI than hitting, say, a Xan. Most Caths don't have that many sentinels (I've landed more attacks than most Caths and I have only 2000 sents). I regularly get FI incoming and my defence almost always comes from Xans - the problem here is the sentinel class/initiative which makes it too powerful, and the weakness of the Xan FR fleet which means Xans don't steal enough spiders. Again, not a problem with the Cath stats.

Originally Posted by Gate

I'm not trying to claim that 'OMG CATHS ARE OVERPOWERED' or that 'OH NOES MY POOR XANDSA RE TOO WEAK', I am impressed with the stats this round overall, I just feel the sentinel is too much of a powerulf/prominent defence ship.

So we actually agree after all

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Well, tbh its mostly been pointed out already which is why i didnt originally go into detail. But because you asked:

This is the same for every race. An attacker will not attack if they are not going to succeed (ie capturing roids), thus saying that Cath cant defend off attacks by all the other races is true, but misleading, as no-one can. If they could, then the attacker wouldnt have launched in the first place. Further, the nature of the two pod classes per race, plus stealers for all races means that a Zik attack can be in the form of anything from FI to BA, and obviously a player cant defend themselves adequately from all types of incoming. Your last point is addressed by a logical extention of the inability of anyone to defend their own incoming - insofar that everyone will need defence to be 'covered'. Cathaars tend to require significantly less defence to reach a 'covered' state, as they tend to already stun a large amount of fleet already. Xans are in a similar position - its normally harder to cover Terran and Zik planets due to their Initiative (or lack thereof).

Ultimately, Caths don't have the ability to make themselves invincible. A 2k roid Cath could build 10k beetles, then someone teams up and sends 120k FI at him - bingo, free roids for the attackers. If the Cath doesn't get defence, he's getting roided, end of story. An equivalent 2000 roid Xan spending the same amount of resources would get over 20k sentinels. Now who has the advantage here?

I agree that both Terran and Zik lose out here; Terran has been a disadvantaged race for several rounds now. Zik's disadvantage is mitigated by their ability to plug the gaps in their fleet by stealing.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

You would think that this is the case, but there are plenty of Cathaars around who seem to be managing to steal large quantities of Corvettes - many Caths have more Sents/Arrows than i own (and i am a Xan) which would normally defy comprehension.

This wouldn't be a problem if the Xan FR fleet were better - you could just go out and steal some spiders.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Nevertheless, those Corvettes are still being stolen in large enough quantities to make attacking with FI/CO difficult and expensive even before universal defence is considered as an attacker's fleet is first Stunned (and in the case of Xans that is alot of value stunned) and then shot at with excellent initiative and high damage ships (like Sents). [/

I am of the opinion that this isnt due to imbalance with the scorpion, more a problem with the Sentinel (it should be FI classed) - as i outlined in my first post in this thread.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

This was true with Ziks last round - who were vulnerable to Xan FI fleets. They plugged this vulnerability by stealing (farming) TBT which would maul the FI.

I played Zik last round, didn't farm any TBT and I got smashed by FI incoming regularly. In fact, by your use of parentheses, you are implying that all stealing is farming, something I disagree with.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

This round, Caths are stealing (farming) Sents which seem to be having the same effect. High value targets do provide people with more XP, that is true. But they are also more difficult to defeat (as they have more ships defending the same number of roids) - and in the case of Caths, more ships = more stunning power --> easier to organise effective defence.

"Higher value planets having more ships" shocker!

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

This isnt a weakness, if you use your skills to exploit and play to your advantage.

And God forbid that we should reward people for doing that!

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

I would argue that in R6, Cathaar was prolly the best race - i enjoyed them thoughourly and did very well with them. In R12 (which i didnt play), i heard that Cathaar also dominated that round. This round, Cathaar are overpowered, and i reckon that people who disagree are probably too insular to recognise it.

I want to know what your evidence for this is. I actually think the rock/paper/scissors nature of this round is one of the most balanced - as proved by the closeness of the average roid count/value (shown here). If Cath power were reduced, they would fall further behind Xan in average value and roids; I fail to see why this would be a good thing or desirable in any way.

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

This is a blatently obvious aspect of the race, which virtually everyone knew about before signing up a Cathaar planet. Cathaar is an offensive teamplayer's race - going solo or 'turtling' with Cathaar doesnt work anywhere near as well than compared with Terran or Xan. If you wanted to turtle, then you should have picked some other race. If you wanted to have a highly effective offensive fleet, then Cathaar was the correct choice.

Which, at a stroke, explains away the "unfair" Cath "dominance" of the top 100. It is the combination of stats which favour aggressive play and the skills of the players, not simply stats imbalance.

In fact, since Cath are, on average, lower value than Xan or Zik and lower in roids than Xans, the presence of a large number of big Caths means that there are a lot of bashed, weak Cath out there bringing the average down. I doubt that any of them think that Cath is "overpowered".

Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie

Cathaar does NOT *repeat* NOT need to be improved.

I agree . I just don't think that it needs to be worsened either.

Ultimately, I think Cath this round is as it should be. It's an excellent choice for aggressive players, but risky because you can't make yourself invincible against any class. It's no coincidence that most of the top roided planets are Cath. That's just how the race works: high risk, high profit. The other races fill other niches, but we shouldn't be getting upset that Cath is functioning almost exactly as it should be.

Also, since nobody seems to have noticed it, the average roid count and value for Cath, Xan and Zik is very even. Terran are a way behind, but that's only because their status as "default newbie option" has lowered their averages considerably.