[booji]

BB you have never understood that to someone who has nothing against infidels or bows, and does not understand much about your disputes, your position has looked extraordinarily similar to theirs.

Both blame the other.
Both maintain they won't hit app without a third alliance... the only difference is at least in theory infidels would take bows as that third alliance whereas for you it was Norse or ult. Now I accept that you and ND feel you can't trust infidels but you can see how this position niftily makes you guys look like the stick in the muds rather than infidels as ultimately you were unwilling to test their commitment.

The only difference really is that you have spent the round sounding like you want to hit app whereas everyone else sympathises with p3n's situation but does not actually care about app being at the top. You on the other hand actively dislike the balance of power situation which (rather to my surprise) most of the other alliances don't care about.

Your leading me on has not been a problem. But if you want 'honest' politics which is what we were talking about then to me ND has been the most honest maintaining from the start that it is not up to them, it is up to ult and Norse to hit app and only then will they move.