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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:09   #22
Ultimate Newbie
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Why?
Well, tbh its mostly been pointed out already which is why i didnt originally go into detail. But because you asked:

Quote:
Originally Posted by are
They can not fight of a Zik attack.
They can not fight of a Terran attack.
They can not fight of a Cathaar attack.
They can not fight of a Xan attack.
This is for the simple reason a Cath has to be 100% covered as everyone just sails on as they know they get roids if the def is wrong and loose nothing if the def is correct.
This is the same for every race. An attacker will not attack if they are not going to succeed (ie capturing roids), thus saying that Cath cant defend off attacks by all the other races is true, but misleading, as no-one can. If they could, then the attacker wouldnt have launched in the first place. Further, the nature of the two pod classes per race, plus stealers for all races means that a Zik attack can be in the form of anything from FI to BA, and obviously a player cant defend themselves adequately from all types of incoming. Your last point is addressed by a logical extention of the inability of anyone to defend their own incoming - insofar that everyone will need defence to be 'covered'. Cathaars tend to require significantly less defence to reach a 'covered' state, as they tend to already stun a large amount of fleet already. Xans are in a similar position - its normally harder to cover Terran and Zik planets due to their Initiative (or lack thereof).

Ie, what you've said is correct, but is misleading as it happens to everyone.

Quote:
Sure, Scorpions are probably one of the best stealers in the game, however, no CO are there to try and stop CR -> wherever you go, no CO to steal for your Scorpions except in rare cases in in-galaxy defence and at the start.
You would think that this is the case, but there are plenty of Cathaars around who seem to be managing to steal large quantities of Corvettes - many Caths have more Sents/Arrows than i own (and i am a Xan) which would normally defy comprehension. Nevertheless, those Corvettes are still being stolen in large enough quantities to make attacking with FI/CO difficult and expensive even before universal defence is considered as an attacker's fleet is first Stunned (and in the case of Xans that is alot of value stunned) and then shot at with excellent initiative and high damage ships (like Sents).

I am of the opinion that this isnt due to imbalance with the scorpion, more a problem with the Sentinel (it should be FI classed) - as i outlined in my first post in this thread.


Quote:
This again makes your value grow fast and this results in more attackers on the Cathaar player as he provides more XP/roid and this even without any risk.
This was true with Ziks last round - who were vulnerable to Xan FI fleets. They plugged this vulnerability by stealing (farming) TBT which would maul the FI. This round, Caths are stealing (farming) Sents which seem to be having the same effect. High value targets do provide people with more XP, that is true. But they are also more difficult to defeat (as they have more ships defending the same number of roids) - and in the case of Caths, more ships = more stunning power --> easier to organise effective defence.

This isnt a weakness, if you use your skills to exploit and play to your advantage.

Quote:
I am Cath and it is the first round ever I see at least some strength in Caths and I played Cath since races exist.
I would argue that in R6, Cathaar was prolly the best race - i enjoyed them thoughourly and did very well with them. In R12 (which i didnt play), i heard that Cathaar also dominated that round. This round, Cathaar are overpowered, and i reckon that people who disagree are probably too insular to recognise it.

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People always forget Cath ships don't kill -> you have to have some strong attack combos to gain roids as you won't keep them for long.
This is a blatently obvious aspect of the race, which virtually everyone knew about before signing up a Cathaar planet. Cathaar is an offensive teamplayer's race - going solo or 'turtling' with Cathaar doesnt work anywhere near as well than compared with Terran or Xan. If you wanted to turtle, then you should have picked some other race. If you wanted to have a highly effective offensive fleet, then Cathaar was the correct choice.

Imo, there are no grounds for you to complain on this front.


Quote:
So while they can not even defend themselves alone against any incoming from a planet only 30% their value, it is only fair they are able to attack a planet 2 times their size without losses.
The definition of 'fair' is fleeting - to me, being fair is that caths are stronger in attack than defence. I dont think saying that being able to attack someone twice your size is your right as a cathaar - its merely a result of carful planning, fleet composition and target selection. I think you'll find that players who can attack you quite easily cannot easily attack players of other races and/or are even more vulnerable than usual to those races. This is all part of the trade off - the point of specialisation is that you are good in one area (attacking Cathaars) instead of being mediochre at everything.

People who plan ahead and/or design effective fleet compositions shouldnt, imo, be punished for it.

Quote:
Atm this is not possible, with CO you can only attack Terrans and only if they don't have to many Gryphs and everyone has tons of anti CR. An dfor making Arrowheads even stronger: try atacking a Xan with even only a few Arrowheads iwth your CO class. Unless you add Spiders, yu will die and when you add Spiders you need lots of them to get past the Sents. After all Cathaars still don't kill.
I think you'll find that most races need to attack with two classes of ships to get full target coverage. This is most apparent with Terran BA/CR fleets - Syren to obviously kill Ghosts before they fire. But Xans often need to send CO in their FI fleets to kill Harpies (for example). To say that attacking with CO only doesnt work is, whilst correct, is misleading - again, most races will need two classes to attack successfully with so Cathaar is not alone in this position.

Secondly, saying that you need "lots of Spiders" is complete crap. 1 Spider freezes 1.75 Sentinels - the Spid costs 2170 resources and a Sent costs 2400 - so obviously you do NOT need all that many Spiders to stun enemy Sents - indeed, its prolly one of the best value for money in the game.

With regards to CR fleets, alot of anti CR def is around simply because Cathaar Cruisers are extremely efficient and effective - PLUS your Roaches (in particular) stun the most common of the anti CR def - Peacekeepers - *very* efficiently. Its an arms race between Cathaars and their Roaches, and Xans with their Peacekeepers - if you are getting too much anti CR def, build more Roaches to stun it. Obviously. OR switch to CO if its too hard for you to handle - that's why the two Pod classes exist. You say that Cathaars have too much value - value tends to be due to having ships - but then say that Cathaars dont have enough ships to attack at a reasonable level. That is, imo, complete crap. Cathaar is the most efficient it has been ever, and Xans (their main headaches) are extremely weakly armoured (prolly the weakest ever). To say that Cathaars are in trouble and need help is complete trash.




Cathaar does NOT *repeat* NOT need to be improved.
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