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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 22:15   #1
Appocomaster
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Stat changes for R15

If we are keeping with stats similar (to some extent) to these, what suggestions are for changes in stats?

Some points to start us off: Cath too strong, Fighter fleet too weak.*

Edit:
*This is obviously completely wrong, as while Cath may need altering and slight weakning, the Fighter fleet is far superior to the Fr/De fleet.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 22:25   #2
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Id keep the Vsharrak and Sentinel prices to how they are and maybe to keep Peacekeepers how they are but at a lower price. Also, Id get rid of ini 1's for Cath players
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 22:39   #3
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Re: Stat changes for R15

weaken viper abit :S

imo its always worrying when a cath kill ship is so widely used, but then thats coming from a terran whos anti co is awful..

Maybe give the pk more armor cause atm they are awful.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:02   #4
are
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Cathaars are weak enough as they are
They can not fight of a Zik attack.
They can not fight of a Terran attack.
They can not fight of a Cathaar attack.
They can not fight of a Xan attack.
This is for the simple reason a Cath has to be 100% covered as everyone just sails on as they know they get roids if the def is wrong and loose nothing if the def is correct.

Great suggestion to improove TA, it changes nothing, only improovement is attacking Ziks is a bit easier in the start. They have enough Terran BS soon enough. Only way to fix it would make them better init than Dragons. This again would really make them to powerful.
Sure, Scorpions are probably one of the best stealers in the game, however, no CO are there to try and stop CR -> wherever you go, no CO to steal for your Scorpions except in rare cases in in-galaxy defence and at the start. This again makes your value grow fast and this results in more attackers on the Cathaar player as he provides more XP/roid and this even without any risk.

I am Cath and it is the first round ever I see at least some strength in Caths and I played Cath since races exist.
People always forget Cath ships don't kill -> you have to have some strong attack combos to gain roids as you won't keep them for long.
Or just tell me you know anyone who takes that 2M value Zik in a galaxy attack? Everyone jumps at the 2M Cath.
So while they can not even defend themselves alone against any incoming from a planet only 30% their value, it is only fair they are able to attack a planet 2 times their size without losses. Atm this is not possible, with CO you can only attack Terrans and only if they don't have to many Gryphs and everyone has tons of anti CR. An dfor making Arrowheads even stronger: try atacking a Xan with even only a few Arrowheads iwth your CO class. Unless you add Spiders, yu will die and when you add Spiders you need lots of them to get past the Sents. After all Cathaars still don't kill.

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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:08   #5
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Peacekeepers need to get more armor or get cheaper, need alot of peacekeepers to defend against cath co with alot of roaches.

Or maybe making the roaches firepower lower.

Terrans are suffering against CO. <-- maybe a new ship? Or change Gryph to CO?
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:15   #6
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Cath don't kill? lol

first of all, some got more Senitels than myself who is Xan. stealing Sents is too easy but also a cause of the weakness of the Pk of course.

I would be also worried about the Viper. How is Ter supposed to stop Cath Co attacks currently? Esp since Ter is supposed to be the counter part of Cath, isnt it?
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:16   #7
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Re: Stat changes for R15

_are_, the top 100 is half Cathaar planets. They're pretty strong.

How about changing the Sentinal and Arrowhead inits around? Leave Sentinal cost as it is, change Peacekeeepers to 60/70.

Terran are a bit weak vs Cath Co (the Gryphon probably needs +5/10 damage) and perhaps the Black Widows can have it's cost increased by 500 or so.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:17   #8
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by are
Cathaars are weak enough as they are
They can not fight of a Zik attack.
They can not fight of a Terran attack.
They can not fight of a Cathaar attack.
They can not fight of a Xan attack.
This is for the simple reason a Cath has to be 100% covered as everyone just sails on as they know they get roids if the def is wrong and loose nothing if the def is correct.
Considering that 80% of the T10 is cathaar, surely saying they're 'weak enough' is unfair? Particularly as they are the most efficient roiders in the uni.

Scorpions are 0 loss CO defence, and vipers are a respectable anti FR; and, considering hte strength of the CO fleet, there's plenty of those around!

One suggestion I have thought about is simply changing the sentinel to a FI. Perhaps it would require an armour-beef-up, as would the arrowhead, and maybe a slight dmg decrease. This would make the FI fleet more successful I feel as it is now no longer a 0 loss defence and people are then encouraged to send more FI on attacks. Additionally, cath are now inable to steal such effective anti FI. Keeping the peacekeeper as it is is fair enough IMO; changing its init back to shooting with the syren really helped prevent complete destabilisation of hte stats before the round.

I've taken a shine to these stats, after really disliking hte first draughts I saw. Cathaar ascendancy would suffer respectably though with the above change to sentinels as now they cannot be stolen, and therefore caths cannot be made almost immune to FI.
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:17   #9
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agerus
Cath don't kill? lol

first of all, some got more Senitels than myself who is Xan. stealing Sents is too easy but also a cause of the weakness of the Pk of course.

I would be also worried about the Viper. How is Ter supposed to stop Cath Co attacks currently? Esp since Ter is supposed to be the counter part of Cath, isnt it?
Terran / Xan / Cath are meant to work so that one of the pod fleets can hit one race, and the other pod fleet can hit the other race (sort of). The idea doesn't hold quite so well with Zik
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:33   #10
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Considering that 80% of the T10 is cathaar, surely saying they're 'weak enough' is unfair? Particularly as they are the most efficient roiders in the uni.
And it had been all of top10 at the start of the round. I agree they had been very strong at the beginning of the round, but I doubt 20% of the top10 will be Cath at the last tick like race distribution suggests. They just serve as XP-whoring jumpstart points for everyone else.

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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:49   #11
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Maybe a solation would be to up Xan Fi a tad so they can take the fight back to Terran and Cathaar a bit better then they currently are able to (by either decreasing their cost, upping their armour or damage), as that is what lacks most it seems (or Xan's just failed to adjust their playing style)
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Unread 24 Aug 2005, 23:56   #12
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Re: Stat changes for R15

From what I have seen now in attack the Xan FR is really weak. Xan FI seems to get through alot. I like the idea about Peacekeeepers to 60/70. And maybe reduce it to 4750 in cost. As it is now Xan has really big problems against both Cat CR with roaches and very big problems against Terran BS. I dont have any problems with them having problems against one type of ships, but not both BS and CR and also FR is problematic seeing as most Xan's use their Vsharraks in attack. This forces them to recall attacks to def against FR incs, while Terrans just can throw in some Syrens in attack to totally annihilate Xan's
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 03:36   #13
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
Sentinal change to 850/850/850 Cost,
I disagree.

The problem with the Xan FI/CO fleet is that Sents are too good. But not becuase they do so much damage etc, its because of their class. I think if you kept the Sent how it is (armour/damage per unit of resource wise) and made it FI classed, it would solve quite a few problems.

1) being FI classed means they fit into the FI fleet more easily, thus making the FI fleet more effective.
2) more Sents will not be at home for defence missions, as they again become critical on attack
3) Sending sents (particularly when outnumbered) in defence effectively means that you are throwing them away - if they keep dying there will be fewer in the universe to defend against other attacks and so on
4) There is still a role for Arrowheads - sending them along to discourage the use of Beetles to defend against you is still viable (especially when attacking a Cath) who might just choose to run instead of take the losses. This makes it fit in with the general theme of needing 2 classes of ships to attack with.

Thoughts?
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 03:39   #14
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by are
Cathaars are weak enough as they are
No.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 09:53   #15
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by are
And it had been all of top10 at the start of the round. I agree they had been very strong at the beginning of the round, but I doubt 20% of the top10 will be Cath at the last tick like race distribution suggests. They just serve as XP-whoring jumpstart points for everyone else.

Regards,
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XP whoring? 8 of the top 10 by value are cathaar, with the biggest a whopping 4.4 milliion, the closest non-cath weighs in at 3.5 million value, with 3 other caths larger than him...

The stats we see atm really aren't supporting what you're saying. Particularly considering the effectiveness of cath attack this round, plus, with stolen sentinels, cutters and phoenix the cath can get good defence vs. FI and DE in addition to their anti CO/FR/BS killships.

I really can't see how cath need powering up...
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 10:12   #16
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
XP whoring? 8 of the top 10 by value are cathaar, with the biggest a whopping 4.4 milliion, the closest non-cath weighs in at 3.5 million value, with 3 other caths larger than him...
This is exactly what I say: Cathaars have big value and are nonetheless easily attacked. You attack them for free and get great XP for it.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 10:26   #17
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
_are_, the top 100 is half Cathaar planets. They're pretty strong.
Average Xan roid count and value is higher though, and the general trend is for Xan catching up to Cath (which they are achieving through the use of the "too weak" fighter fleet).

Xan always finish strongly because their powerful low-eta fleets are more effective later in the round when they have full travel time tech and people aren't as active, thus low-eta fleets can sneak in without being noticed. In addition, Cath has no "invincibility" option against FI - no matter how many beetles they build, there will always be enough Xans to team up to get past them.

Anyhow, drawing conclusions about race balance when we're barely half-way through the round is premature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 10:46   #18
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Anyhow, drawing conclusions about race balance when we're barely half-way through the round is premature.
Sure, unfortunately we are asked now, so we have to try and analyze what had been at start of round, what happens now and how it will most likely be at the end of the round.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:26   #19
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
In addition, Cath has no "invincibility" option against FI - no matter how many beetles they build, there will always be enough Xans to team up to get past them.
Scorpions. Sentinels. The Cath CR fleet is used far more often and is far more effective than the xand FR fleet, and so far I've seen far more examples of caths stealing CO than of xands stealing spiders. As a xand, I've quickly come to appreciate that some caths I just can't touch, despite owning the second largest xand fleet in the uni.

It takes a mere 3.5k stolen sentinels to make a 2k roid cath able to inflict more damage in value than they lose in roids, assuming I get max cap, which I generally don't as the majority of these have a large stockpile and it takes just 9k beetles to start cutting my cap to below 500 roids, whilst I simoultaneously leave myself open to both FR and DE retals (As out of interest, I hardly ever attack with pulsars, instead sending them on def w/ ghosts).

I'm not trying to claim that 'OMG CATHS ARE OVERPOWERED' or that 'OH NOES MY POOR XANDSA RE TOO WEAK', I am impressed with the stats this round overall, I just feel the sentinel is too much of a powerulf/prominent defence ship.

Last edited by Ultimate Newbie; 25 Aug 2005 at 12:16. Reason: Closed the quote tag for ya mate :).
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:55   #20
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I disagree.

The problem with the Xan FI/CO fleet is that Sents are too good. But not becuase they do so much damage etc, its because of their class. I think if you kept the Sent how it is (armour/damage per unit of resource wise) and made it FI classed, it would solve quite a few problems.

1) being FI classed means they fit into the FI fleet more easily, thus making the FI fleet more effective.
2) more Sents will not be at home for defence missions, as they again become critical on attack
3) Sending sents (particularly when outnumbered) in defence effectively means that you are throwing them away - if they keep dying there will be fewer in the universe to defend against other attacks and so on
4) There is still a role for Arrowheads - sending them along to discourage the use of Beetles to defend against you is still viable (especially when attacking a Cath) who might just choose to run instead of take the losses. This makes it fit in with the general theme of needing 2 classes of ships to attack with.

Thoughts?
Sentinels being CO class also means that too many cathaars/zikonians have quite some stolen sentinels which discourages attacking them. Using arrows with a FI fleet against cat/zik is not a very attractive option since they tend to get stolen too. Stealing some spiders could help but I haven't seen many xans with too many of them cause its too hard to get any.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 11:57   #21
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Scorpions. Sentinels. The Cath CR fleet is used far more often and is far more effective than the xand FR fleet, and so far I've seen far more examples of caths stealing CO than of xands stealing spiders. As a xand, I've quickly come to appreciate that some caths I just can't touch, despite owning the second largest xand fleet in the uni.
Exactly.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 12:09   #22
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Why?
Well, tbh its mostly been pointed out already which is why i didnt originally go into detail. But because you asked:

Quote:
Originally Posted by are
They can not fight of a Zik attack.
They can not fight of a Terran attack.
They can not fight of a Cathaar attack.
They can not fight of a Xan attack.
This is for the simple reason a Cath has to be 100% covered as everyone just sails on as they know they get roids if the def is wrong and loose nothing if the def is correct.
This is the same for every race. An attacker will not attack if they are not going to succeed (ie capturing roids), thus saying that Cath cant defend off attacks by all the other races is true, but misleading, as no-one can. If they could, then the attacker wouldnt have launched in the first place. Further, the nature of the two pod classes per race, plus stealers for all races means that a Zik attack can be in the form of anything from FI to BA, and obviously a player cant defend themselves adequately from all types of incoming. Your last point is addressed by a logical extention of the inability of anyone to defend their own incoming - insofar that everyone will need defence to be 'covered'. Cathaars tend to require significantly less defence to reach a 'covered' state, as they tend to already stun a large amount of fleet already. Xans are in a similar position - its normally harder to cover Terran and Zik planets due to their Initiative (or lack thereof).

Ie, what you've said is correct, but is misleading as it happens to everyone.

Quote:
Sure, Scorpions are probably one of the best stealers in the game, however, no CO are there to try and stop CR -> wherever you go, no CO to steal for your Scorpions except in rare cases in in-galaxy defence and at the start.
You would think that this is the case, but there are plenty of Cathaars around who seem to be managing to steal large quantities of Corvettes - many Caths have more Sents/Arrows than i own (and i am a Xan) which would normally defy comprehension. Nevertheless, those Corvettes are still being stolen in large enough quantities to make attacking with FI/CO difficult and expensive even before universal defence is considered as an attacker's fleet is first Stunned (and in the case of Xans that is alot of value stunned) and then shot at with excellent initiative and high damage ships (like Sents).

I am of the opinion that this isnt due to imbalance with the scorpion, more a problem with the Sentinel (it should be FI classed) - as i outlined in my first post in this thread.


Quote:
This again makes your value grow fast and this results in more attackers on the Cathaar player as he provides more XP/roid and this even without any risk.
This was true with Ziks last round - who were vulnerable to Xan FI fleets. They plugged this vulnerability by stealing (farming) TBT which would maul the FI. This round, Caths are stealing (farming) Sents which seem to be having the same effect. High value targets do provide people with more XP, that is true. But they are also more difficult to defeat (as they have more ships defending the same number of roids) - and in the case of Caths, more ships = more stunning power --> easier to organise effective defence.

This isnt a weakness, if you use your skills to exploit and play to your advantage.

Quote:
I am Cath and it is the first round ever I see at least some strength in Caths and I played Cath since races exist.
I would argue that in R6, Cathaar was prolly the best race - i enjoyed them thoughourly and did very well with them. In R12 (which i didnt play), i heard that Cathaar also dominated that round. This round, Cathaar are overpowered, and i reckon that people who disagree are probably too insular to recognise it.

Quote:
People always forget Cath ships don't kill -> you have to have some strong attack combos to gain roids as you won't keep them for long.
This is a blatently obvious aspect of the race, which virtually everyone knew about before signing up a Cathaar planet. Cathaar is an offensive teamplayer's race - going solo or 'turtling' with Cathaar doesnt work anywhere near as well than compared with Terran or Xan. If you wanted to turtle, then you should have picked some other race. If you wanted to have a highly effective offensive fleet, then Cathaar was the correct choice.

Imo, there are no grounds for you to complain on this front.


Quote:
So while they can not even defend themselves alone against any incoming from a planet only 30% their value, it is only fair they are able to attack a planet 2 times their size without losses.
The definition of 'fair' is fleeting - to me, being fair is that caths are stronger in attack than defence. I dont think saying that being able to attack someone twice your size is your right as a cathaar - its merely a result of carful planning, fleet composition and target selection. I think you'll find that players who can attack you quite easily cannot easily attack players of other races and/or are even more vulnerable than usual to those races. This is all part of the trade off - the point of specialisation is that you are good in one area (attacking Cathaars) instead of being mediochre at everything.

People who plan ahead and/or design effective fleet compositions shouldnt, imo, be punished for it.

Quote:
Atm this is not possible, with CO you can only attack Terrans and only if they don't have to many Gryphs and everyone has tons of anti CR. An dfor making Arrowheads even stronger: try atacking a Xan with even only a few Arrowheads iwth your CO class. Unless you add Spiders, yu will die and when you add Spiders you need lots of them to get past the Sents. After all Cathaars still don't kill.
I think you'll find that most races need to attack with two classes of ships to get full target coverage. This is most apparent with Terran BA/CR fleets - Syren to obviously kill Ghosts before they fire. But Xans often need to send CO in their FI fleets to kill Harpies (for example). To say that attacking with CO only doesnt work is, whilst correct, is misleading - again, most races will need two classes to attack successfully with so Cathaar is not alone in this position.

Secondly, saying that you need "lots of Spiders" is complete crap. 1 Spider freezes 1.75 Sentinels - the Spid costs 2170 resources and a Sent costs 2400 - so obviously you do NOT need all that many Spiders to stun enemy Sents - indeed, its prolly one of the best value for money in the game.

With regards to CR fleets, alot of anti CR def is around simply because Cathaar Cruisers are extremely efficient and effective - PLUS your Roaches (in particular) stun the most common of the anti CR def - Peacekeepers - *very* efficiently. Its an arms race between Cathaars and their Roaches, and Xans with their Peacekeepers - if you are getting too much anti CR def, build more Roaches to stun it. Obviously. OR switch to CO if its too hard for you to handle - that's why the two Pod classes exist. You say that Cathaars have too much value - value tends to be due to having ships - but then say that Cathaars dont have enough ships to attack at a reasonable level. That is, imo, complete crap. Cathaar is the most efficient it has been ever, and Xans (their main headaches) are extremely weakly armoured (prolly the weakest ever). To say that Cathaars are in trouble and need help is complete trash.




Cathaar does NOT *repeat* NOT need to be improved.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 14:00   #23
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I second what Sov is sayin.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 14:02   #24
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Re: Stat changes for R15

hmm, what I'm also worried about is the Terran Co defense? Isnt Ter supposed to be the counterpart to Cath yet it can be roided by Vipers pretty easily?!
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 14:18   #25
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Thankyou sovvie!

The first change i would make for rnd 15 is to sort out stealing for xan. In other races the "primary" podding fleet is the one with stealers, with xan this is not the case.

secondly xan's supposed fire power does not combat the other races armour, so that if you pit equal fleets of value against each other, the other wins.

thirdly the sentinal is broken and as sov says should be an fi or should be targetted by the fi fleet but should never be fast zero loss defence (and the arrow doesn't remove that quality particularly, since it fires later).

Forthly the FR fleet should be of some use, if you wish to have xan be able to take an even stance with other races having 2 podding fleets. this means that the ships need to be able to target the ships which can be sent in defence of it (like everyone else can) rather than target the pds ships (ships at the target, but not ships which bar in galaxy defence, could be sent in addition). Roaches for instance are a classic example of this, as are wyverns and syrens and dragons. three ships, all targetters covered. what does xan have to do? build all its fr and de, and still leave gaps have low armour and not in some cases even hit first (which is the way xan should work, low armour high dmg low init). That is not efficient or comparable to otther races.

in other aspects the round is reasonably balanced, certainly terran and zik have struck a level which makes them both playable. cath are slightly overpowered, but it is a problem which is magnified by the state of xan.

now you can correct the imbalance, but either changing xan directly, or by changing others around xan, but something needs to be done.


So suggestions.

Whilst ever you do not have an emp res collum, the issue over armour and dmg, needs to be addressed. Xan will need the total armour and dmg eff, to be approx 15 to 20% lower than terran, 5 to 10% lower than cath, and 5 to 10% greater than zik.

terran fire last, so need the extra armour, cath fire first but do not kill, zik steal and should be making up the losses through recouperating their ships.

whilst ever this is not the case you will see balance issues, as for race effectiveness at attacking and defending this will largely be addressed through targetting.

if you want specific changes to these stats i'd do things like reverse the pk - bomber targetting, make the sent an fi, change the vsh to a steal ship and have it fire before the cutlass but geared as a xan stealer (so lower armour higher dmg in comparison to the zik).

But then you can't do that can you.... because you can develop chain stealing. which means that you need to work over the whole thing.....

I also don't think that cath should have a fi or co fleet, i think they should have an fr and cr , and that xan should have a co fr. this will allow you to re adress the stealers / killers for zik. (fr has no stealers, de has no stealers co has no stealers) the scorp will change targetting to fr (and the bomber (fr) is now hitting cr.....). of course at this point, everything is needing to be re jigged.

but then that's always the way isn't it.

tbh there are some folks on this board who know what a good set of stats should look like, and can be arbitrary about them rather than try to build a super race. they need to all be put in a room, and not let out until something comes out of it which can be tweaked through testing.

because i don't think we have that set of stats yet.....
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 16:53   #26
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
Scorpions. Sentinels. The Cath CR fleet is used far more often and is far more effective than the xand FR fleet, and so far I've seen far more examples of caths stealing CO than of xands stealing spiders. As a xand, I've quickly come to appreciate that some caths I just can't touch, despite owning the second largest xand fleet in the uni.
Caths have the same problems with some Terrans - particularly those with large Dragon fleets and significant numbers of stolen Peacekeepers/Scarabs. I don't see anything wrong with this - stealing ships requires activity, so the people who have been active and gone out to get certain ships should be rewarded by being made harder to attack.

If we want to talk about invincibility to attack, why not talk about how a large Lancer fleet makes a Xan invincibile to Cath CO?

I certainly agree that the Xan FR fleet sucks, it needs an upgrade or a complete rethink. There is certainly an argument for downgrading the Viper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
It takes a mere 3.5k stolen sentinels to make a 2k roid cath able to inflict more damage in value than they lose in roids, assuming I get max cap, which I generally don't as the majority of these have a large stockpile and it takes just 9k beetles to start cutting my cap to below 500 roids, whilst I simoultaneously leave myself open to both FR and DE retals (As out of interest, I hardly ever attack with pulsars, instead sending them on def w/ ghosts).
Not if you build Bombers, though I can understand why you wouldn't (with reference to the earlier point about the Xan FR fleet).

You will still lose a lot less hitting a Cath with FI than hitting, say, a Xan. Most Caths don't have that many sentinels (I've landed more attacks than most Caths and I have only 2000 sents). I regularly get FI incoming and my defence almost always comes from Xans - the problem here is the sentinel class/initiative which makes it too powerful, and the weakness of the Xan FR fleet which means Xans don't steal enough spiders. Again, not a problem with the Cath stats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I'm not trying to claim that 'OMG CATHS ARE OVERPOWERED' or that 'OH NOES MY POOR XANDSA RE TOO WEAK', I am impressed with the stats this round overall, I just feel the sentinel is too much of a powerulf/prominent defence ship.
So we actually agree after all

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Well, tbh its mostly been pointed out already which is why i didnt originally go into detail. But because you asked:

This is the same for every race. An attacker will not attack if they are not going to succeed (ie capturing roids), thus saying that Cath cant defend off attacks by all the other races is true, but misleading, as no-one can. If they could, then the attacker wouldnt have launched in the first place. Further, the nature of the two pod classes per race, plus stealers for all races means that a Zik attack can be in the form of anything from FI to BA, and obviously a player cant defend themselves adequately from all types of incoming. Your last point is addressed by a logical extention of the inability of anyone to defend their own incoming - insofar that everyone will need defence to be 'covered'. Cathaars tend to require significantly less defence to reach a 'covered' state, as they tend to already stun a large amount of fleet already. Xans are in a similar position - its normally harder to cover Terran and Zik planets due to their Initiative (or lack thereof).
Ultimately, Caths don't have the ability to make themselves invincible. A 2k roid Cath could build 10k beetles, then someone teams up and sends 120k FI at him - bingo, free roids for the attackers. If the Cath doesn't get defence, he's getting roided, end of story. An equivalent 2000 roid Xan spending the same amount of resources would get over 20k sentinels. Now who has the advantage here?

I agree that both Terran and Zik lose out here; Terran has been a disadvantaged race for several rounds now. Zik's disadvantage is mitigated by their ability to plug the gaps in their fleet by stealing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
You would think that this is the case, but there are plenty of Cathaars around who seem to be managing to steal large quantities of Corvettes - many Caths have more Sents/Arrows than i own (and i am a Xan) which would normally defy comprehension.
This wouldn't be a problem if the Xan FR fleet were better - you could just go out and steal some spiders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Nevertheless, those Corvettes are still being stolen in large enough quantities to make attacking with FI/CO difficult and expensive even before universal defence is considered as an attacker's fleet is first Stunned (and in the case of Xans that is alot of value stunned) and then shot at with excellent initiative and high damage ships (like Sents). [/

I am of the opinion that this isnt due to imbalance with the scorpion, more a problem with the Sentinel (it should be FI classed) - as i outlined in my first post in this thread.
Agreed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
This was true with Ziks last round - who were vulnerable to Xan FI fleets. They plugged this vulnerability by stealing (farming) TBT which would maul the FI.
I played Zik last round, didn't farm any TBT and I got smashed by FI incoming regularly. In fact, by your use of parentheses, you are implying that all stealing is farming, something I disagree with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
This round, Caths are stealing (farming) Sents which seem to be having the same effect. High value targets do provide people with more XP, that is true. But they are also more difficult to defeat (as they have more ships defending the same number of roids) - and in the case of Caths, more ships = more stunning power --> easier to organise effective defence.
"Higher value planets having more ships" shocker!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
This isnt a weakness, if you use your skills to exploit and play to your advantage.
And God forbid that we should reward people for doing that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I would argue that in R6, Cathaar was prolly the best race - i enjoyed them thoughourly and did very well with them. In R12 (which i didnt play), i heard that Cathaar also dominated that round. This round, Cathaar are overpowered, and i reckon that people who disagree are probably too insular to recognise it.
I want to know what your evidence for this is. I actually think the rock/paper/scissors nature of this round is one of the most balanced - as proved by the closeness of the average roid count/value (shown here). If Cath power were reduced, they would fall further behind Xan in average value and roids; I fail to see why this would be a good thing or desirable in any way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
This is a blatently obvious aspect of the race, which virtually everyone knew about before signing up a Cathaar planet. Cathaar is an offensive teamplayer's race - going solo or 'turtling' with Cathaar doesnt work anywhere near as well than compared with Terran or Xan. If you wanted to turtle, then you should have picked some other race. If you wanted to have a highly effective offensive fleet, then Cathaar was the correct choice.
Which, at a stroke, explains away the "unfair" Cath "dominance" of the top 100. It is the combination of stats which favour aggressive play and the skills of the players, not simply stats imbalance.

In fact, since Cath are, on average, lower value than Xan or Zik and lower in roids than Xans, the presence of a large number of big Caths means that there are a lot of bashed, weak Cath out there bringing the average down. I doubt that any of them think that Cath is "overpowered".


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Cathaar does NOT *repeat* NOT need to be improved.
I agree . I just don't think that it needs to be worsened either.

Ultimately, I think Cath this round is as it should be. It's an excellent choice for aggressive players, but risky because you can't make yourself invincible against any class. It's no coincidence that most of the top roided planets are Cath. That's just how the race works: high risk, high profit. The other races fill other niches, but we shouldn't be getting upset that Cath is functioning almost exactly as it should be.

Also, since nobody seems to have noticed it, the average roid count and value for Cath, Xan and Zik is very even. Terran are a way behind, but that's only because their status as "default newbie option" has lowered their averages considerably.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 17:11   #27
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Re: Stat changes for R15

cath targetting is slightly out of whack though rob.

No small ship (fi co) hits big ships(cr bs), and no big ship hits small ships (except of course the scorp, a point i will come to).

thus it's the middle classes which are the work horses, having to target both ends, because they in turn are being targetted by both ends.

now cath is the only race which has no podding ships in this middle class, infact it only has 2 ships in the middle class! which must be very useful for attacking indeed!

it also has its primary roiding fleet in which only one class of ship need be sent, unlike any other race, where it is neccessary to send in a second class for the fleet to be wholey useful (xan need co with the fi, and de with the fr - terran need cr with the bs , or fr with the de not that many try this :/ - there's a lot of co to de ships out there... zik need the cr with the bs well it certainly helps anyway and their fr fleet tends to require the addition of some co ships to be really effective, unless multi racing with a commrade, something applicable to all attacking fleets). they can infact target all ships which would attack them in 1 class with the cr. Add to that they are the only race with a cross ship, (big to small, and it's a stealer) and you can see why actually, they do have a slight stat edge to other races irrespective of tweaking of dmg and armour ratios.

All races, if the targetting stays in this compartmental fashion, should have a middle podding class and 1 other.
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Unread 25 Aug 2005, 17:54   #28
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy
it also has its primary roiding fleet in which only one class of ship need be sent, unlike any other race,
I'd argue that Caths need to send BWs with their CR in order to be able to roid Dragon-heavy Terrans.

As to the rest of your post... I agree with your reasoning, but I just don't see any empirical evidence that there's a problem.

I think it's actually a philosophical difference - I'd rather look at the system as a whole, and see what's actually working - an empiricist approach. Most of the posters here seem to be taking a rationalist approach.

From an empirical standpoint, there really is no problem - there's a balance between the average roid counts and values. The evidence shows that there is balance.

This means that either:
a) Cath don't have an advantage from the stats
b) Cath do have an advantage, but this advantage is balanced out by other factors

The problem is that stats discussion never takes these other factors into consideration. The fact that Caths tend to get more incoming than other races is ignored, because it's a statement based on observation of "real world" behaviour and can't be explained purely in terms of tweaks to the targetting of specific ships.
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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 01:29   #29
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
Ultimately, Caths don't have the ability to make themselves invincible.
Not by themselves per se (some may argue that Vipers make them pretty invincible to FR though), but i think Caths are in the best position to make themselves invincble by proxy - by stunning huge proportions of the enemy fleet, thus making the enemy extremely vulnerable to any form of defence. But you know that.

Quote:
I played Zik last round, didn't farm any TBT and I got smashed by FI incoming regularly. In fact, by your use of parentheses, you are implying that all stealing is farming, something I disagree with.
Obviously, i'm not saying that all ziks farmed their TBT - as that's obviously wrong. What i meant by the parentheses was that players could steal ships legitimately in combat, or "less legitimately" either through farming them (an illegal activity) or trolling the inactive planets for certain ships that they were looking for. I put that in brackets as, obviously, it didnt happen all that often (i hope, anyway) but often enough to make it worth mentioning as an aside.

But that's off topic...

Quote:
"Higher value planets having more ships" shocker!
That's what i was trying to point out - you cant argue both ways (that Caths have too many ships and too few ships at the same time).

Quote:
And God forbid that we should reward people for doing that!
I wasnt saying that players shouldnt be rewarded for using their skills. On the contrary, if you have read much of what i have written on this issue for the last four years or so you;d realise that its quite the contrary.

Quote:
I want to know what your evidence for this is. I actually think the rock/paper/scissors nature of this round is one of the most balanced - as proved by the closeness of the average roid count/value (shown here). If Cath power were reduced, they would fall further behind Xan in average value and roids; I fail to see why this would be a good thing or desirable in any way.
Well overpowered was perhaps the wrong word, though i still maintain that they are on the overpowered side of balanced . I think Cathaar needs to be adjusted which is not the same as weakening or strengthening.

Quote:
Which, at a stroke, explains away the "unfair" Cath "dominance" of the top 100. It is the combination of stats which favour aggressive play and the skills of the players, not simply stats imbalance.
I think the imbalance in the stats (your own admission i might point out ) magnifies problems in the top 100. Its true, the top 100 should have proportionally more Caths in it than other races - but it should not be dominated by Cathaar planets.

Quote:
Ultimately, I think Cath this round is as it should be. It's an excellent choice for aggressive players, but risky because you can't make yourself invincible against any class. It's no coincidence that most of the top roided planets are Cath. That's just how the race works: high risk, high profit. The other races fill other niches, but we shouldn't be getting upset that Cath is functioning almost exactly as it should be.
Its ironic, then, that the main justification of improving the power of Cathaar's EMP (and indeed their kill ships) was to improve the race defensively. You are saying that this isnt working, and indeed results in (what i predicted would happen) is improvement in Cathaar's offensive ability and not improve them defensively much at all.



I think that Cathaar needs to be adjusted to change their relationship with Xan a bit more. Xan FR (or rather, second pod class) needs a complete overhaul.

Next round's stats builders have their work cut out for them
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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 09:14   #30
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
I think that Cathaar needs to be adjusted to change their relationship with Xan a bit more. Xan FR (or rather, second pod class) needs a complete overhaul.
Well, the idea of 'adjusted' the proposed changes gave are more like 'oh, if you are really active you managed top10 midround this time as Cath while after last round we are used to Cath completly out of top50, this is not intended, get them out there again'
I am fine if the Viper gets downgraded a bit, Cath is not supposed to have useful kill ships, but at the same time lowering all main attack ships *and* raising their targets stats is a bit to much.
For the stealing / stealing targets: Last round Ziks had really been overpowered. Might not have been exactly the fault of the Ziks, but people just accepted donating their fleets to them, that way they became basically untouchable in the end not because of their own stats, but because of the stolen ships stats. This round Cathaar is able to steal a few nice ships, but low end players are not used to evac the targetted ships. There is no single reason for a Cathaar ever to gain a single CO in a normal raid. No CO targets the CR, no need to keep them home and see them stolen. For some reason my targets recognized this and most of the time the CO are out. I attack everyday and I have 99 Arrowheads, 0 Sents, 3 Cutters. This is left from the first 2 stealing success attacks at the start of the round, no stealing for me since then except from other Cath players.
On the other hand I see increasingly attacks of all types that look like ship farming to me, it is about time to introduce negative XP for attacking planets with value a certain fraction smaller than the attackers value and having XP time out over time, e.g. 1%/day.

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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 09:35   #31
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by are
On the other hand I see increasingly attacks of all types that look like ship farming to me, it is about time to introduce negative XP for attacking planets with value a certain fraction smaller than the attackers value and having XP time out over time, e.g. 1%/day.
like here?
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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 09:46   #32
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by are
Well, the idea of 'adjusted' the proposed changes gave are more like 'oh, if you are really active you managed top10 midround this time as Cath while after last round we are used to Cath completly out of top50, this is not intended, get them out there again'
No.

Quote:
I am fine if the Viper gets downgraded a bit, Cath is not supposed to have useful kill ships, but at the same time lowering all main attack ships *and* raising their targets stats is a bit to much.
Not neccessarily - tbh i cant tell what is too little or too much without seeing the stats in relation to each other. I find it interesting that you can, though. Perhaps you should do the stats then mate :\.

Quote:
On the other hand I see increasingly attacks of all types that look like ship farming to me, it is about time to introduce negative XP for attacking planets with value a certain fraction smaller than the attackers value and having XP time out over time, e.g. 1%/day.
THat's a bit like what Appoco has said in this post. XP decay is an interesting idea though...
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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 10:42   #33
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Re: Stat changes for R15

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Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
Not necessarily - tbh i cant tell what is too little or too much without seeing the stoats in relation to each other. I find it interesting that you can, though. Perhaps you should do the stats then mate :\.
Well, I know Cathaar and I know them well, I'd say. Just for the simple fact I played them the whole round since r6. To judge stats you have to see them over a longer period, a 'beta' won't show if they are balanced anymore for 2 simple reasons: the beta is to short and the ticks are to fast. I can't say if Xan/Ter/Zik is good, all what I can say is I as Cathaar can easily attack Xan and Cath, I can now and then attack a Terran and on rare occasions I can attack a Zik. I talk about targets my value or higher, btw.
The other thing I can say is I am easily attacked by Xan, Ter, Zik and Cat.
At the beginning of the round I had a high value planet leading to more incs and more XP for my attackers, now other races catch up and take over in value.
If you end the round now, Cathaars might have been to strong. For the whole round, it will be ok, I am pretty sure. And most likely I will even have my usual hard time getting any rank at all towards the end, just as it used to be.
That the whole game shifts to CR/BS incomings is not exactly bad for me, I like to be able to sleep a tad longer.

For the XP timing out: I think this is the only way to do a certain limit to XP Whoring. It may not time out to fast, but probably a slow decreasing of XP over time will balance the game much more than a change in stats will.

Just remember Gerbie back when XP was introduced, he had no ships and almost unstoppable #1 position in universe. He read the rules and stats and acted on it. He just got his XP deleted and a limit for maximum XP/roid got introduced. The limit is fine and reasonable, but with XP expiring it would not at al have been necessary to delete his XP.

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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 11:10   #34
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Re: Stat changes for R15

12 cat in top 20, 4 terran, 3 xan 1 zik.

empirical enough?
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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 11:42   #35
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I personally would like to see a downgrade in anti fr in general. The zik fr fleet has become relatively useless now, as most ziks have too many maru, all xans have too many vsh, all terrans have too many drake/syren and a lot of cats have a heavy viper fleet.

'Just move on to the bs/cr fleet!' I hear you cry. Well I would, but i actually want to steal some co. Zik needed an fi/co steal ship this round imo, for ally def if nothing else.
Personally Im finding it difficult to land with any zik fleets later in the round, and with a lack of stolen pods from other classes due to attackers pulling etc etc it isnt even feasible to fake. Then again, this might just be the luck of the draw, and nothing to do with stats whatsoever.

Personally I like terran this round, their stats are pretty much where they should be. Xan perhaps got it a bit hard with their most effective fleet being nerfed due to the sentinel effect amoung other factors. Agreed also that cath have a decent set of stats that reflect their ideals.

I was a big fan of sharing the stealing out amoung the other races at the start of the round, but now im not so sure. Some of the steal ships are just more effective than others. For example, the terran syren in a cr bs fleet (which is a hard fleet) or the scorpion in the cath cr fleet is going to see a lot more action than the xan tbt. In fact, addition of steal ships to fleets that are highly effective at roiding gives said races a signinificant advantage when i comes to stealing.

When i think of a solution to the stats problem, i shall post one
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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 15:38   #36
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Re: Stat changes for R15

In regard to the cath have so much stolen co, xan have no spiders:
Cath having so many sentinals is xans own fault for leaving them behind, its not as if you can fake with scorpions.

Before anyone says thats because they hit inactive low people, i draw your attention to the high value of most caths with lots of sents hence small inactives are out of reach, and also why cant xans do the same thing to small inactive caths?

Added note: The cath co fleet is possibly the easiest to cover, spiders, arrows, or scorps all fire without return (yes spiders get emped by beetles but they fire same time so stop nit picking)

Added note 2: Emp is supposed to be damn effective. Be glad your ships come home when attacking a cath.
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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 15:39   #37
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Syrens steal?!!?!
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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 20:40   #38
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy
12 cat in top 20, 4 terran, 3 xan 1 zik.

empirical enough?
It's not empirical until the round is over.
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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 23:13   #39
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Re: Stat changes for R15

My gal mate (who was top20 for most of the round so far) just got roided by a planet 1/3 of his value AND had 400 cr stolen off him. He is cath, and this is exactly what happends if you got 1 attack uncovered. Overpowered?

Of the big people in my gal, the xan player has lost the least roids of all and we have had *about* the same inc, except ofc the caths had most Cath is an excellent support race, but in defence they don't do alot on their own and are completely dependant on their alliance. Also, roaches is the only anti de cath have and they are more or less always attacking.. yet no terran, or even xan with fr/de, spots this weakness. Xan isn't a no loss roiding race, that's just how it is, if 3k sents scares you away from attacking top planets then...
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Zik: 3rd(r30), 4th(r52), 7th(r27), 9th(r26), 31st(r51)
Ter: 3rd(r50), 4th(r53), 4th(r37), 5th(r31)
Xan: 3rd(r36), 54th(r33), 104th(r29)
Cat: 8th (r54), 9th(r48), 20th(r32), 77th(r23), 103rd(r38), 150th(r34), 152nd(r24),
Etd: 14th(r28)

Those damn emp races..
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Unread 26 Aug 2005, 23:29   #40
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by veX
I personally would like to see a downgrade in anti fr in general. The zik fr fleet has become relatively useless now, as most ziks have too many maru, all xans have too many vsh, all terrans have too many drake/syren and a lot of cats have a heavy viper fleet.
Yes, the amount of anti Fr around has pushed Xan to use Fi more than Fr/De, too. This is
Quote:
'Just move on to the bs/cr fleet!' I hear you cry. Well I would, but i actually want to steal some co. Zik needed an fi/co steal ship this round imo, for ally def if nothing else.
This would create stealing chains, which is what I was carefully trying to avoid. The steal ships of Ter/Cath/Xan are the bigger fleet feeding the smaller fleet, and all 3 classes (De for Terran, Co for Cath, Fi for Xan) don't contain steal ships in Zik either, so that they can't steal these ships and then use these stolen ships to steal others. In this way only Ziks can steal more than one class, keeping a lot of their Zikness[size=3]™, [/size][size=2]while everyone gets steal ships to play with, which imo is a happy comprimise. [/size]

Quote:
Personally Im finding it difficult to land with any zik fleets later in the round, and with a lack of stolen pods from other classes due to attackers pulling etc etc it isnt even feasible to fake. Then again, this might just be the luck of the draw, and nothing to do with stats whatsoever.
No, to a certain extent it is stats. It's a lot easier to steal from suiciding attackers, and last round's success of Ziks together with the fact that most Zik steal ships target classes of a higher ETA than them mean they're not viable for more than galaxy defence, therefore reducing pod capture.

Quote:
I was a big fan of sharing the stealing out amoung the other races at the start of the round, but now im not so sure. Some of the steal ships are just more effective than others. For example, the terran syren in a cr bs fleet (which is a hard fleet) or the scorpion in the cath cr fleet is going to see a lot more action than the xan tbt.
Yes, in many ways Xan's TBT is the weakest of the 3 non-zik steal ships. However, if Sentinals are moved to Fi it'll drop the effectiveness of stolen Co a bit for Cathaars, leaving Wyvern by far the most effective in terms of possibly stolen useful ships (Scarabs, Lancers and Peackeepers, as well as Clippers to support Drakes).
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Unread 27 Aug 2005, 00:01   #41
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy
.
Whilst ever you do not have an emp res collum, the issue over armour and dmg, needs to be addressed. Xan will need the total armour and dmg eff, to be approx 15 to 20% lower than terran, 5 to 10% lower than cath, and 5 to 10% greater than zik.
Terran:
Arm: 659 Dmg: 369 Total: 1028
Cath:
Arm: 475 Dmg: 547 Total: 1022
Xan:
Arm: 379 Dmg: 517 Total: 896
Zik:
Arm: 467 Dmg: 424 Total: 891
(it adds it all up for me on the stats admin page )

----------
Cathaar are probably the hardest race to balance across the board. On the one hand, you have players backed by alliances, many of whom are in the top 50-100. On the other hand, if you can't get access to defence regularly, the fact you can only stun quite a few of the classes means that you generally get more incoming and take heavier losses.

If Cath stats are reduced slightly then the top section of the players may be more even, but the weaker Cathaars will be overrun.
If they aren't, then there'll still be a higher than average Cathaar presence in the top ranks.
I'm not sure there's a solution that works both ends. At the moment, as mentioned by Zotnam, Cathaars do take more of a high risk strategy to some extent, so I think everyone expects the Cathaar presence in the top ranks to drop towards the end of the round. However, I have been expecting this all round and it doesn't seem to have happened yet, so I'm worried it won't happen at all (despite Cathaar having a higher than average XP in general).
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Unread 27 Aug 2005, 01:29   #42
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy
12 cat in top 20, 4 terran, 3 xan 1 zik.

empirical enough?

There are 20 planets in the top 20. There are 2707 planets not in the top 20 and, amongst those, Xans have higher value and more roids than Caths, and Ziks have a higher value than even Xan.

So a bunch of aggressive players went Cath and are, presently, doing well at it. Is that any reason whatsoever to make Cath completely pointless for the other 99% of the universe? They're already third on average value, out of four. Terran stats are obviously warped by their "default newbie option" status, so Cath basically have the lowest average value of the races we have meaningful stats for.

If we take the focus off the top 100 (and even the top 100 is starting to level out) we would see that Cath are not doing better than other races. It is utterly ridiculous, in the light of these statistics, to claim that Cath are overpowered.
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Unread 27 Aug 2005, 04:09   #43
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Re: Stat changes for R15

can we suggest a new person doing the stats?
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Unread 27 Aug 2005, 05:40   #44
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
can we suggest a new person doing the stats?
Who do you have in mind?
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Unread 27 Aug 2005, 12:03   #45
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Re: Stat changes for R15

you're always welcome to suggest
(that's why I keep making all these threads on stats)
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Unread 27 Aug 2005, 12:30   #46
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
There are 20 planets in the top 20. There are 2707 planets not in the top 20 and, amongst those, Xans have higher value and more roids than Caths, and Ziks have a higher value than even Xan.

So a bunch of aggressive players went Cath and are, presently, doing well at it. Is that any reason whatsoever to make Cath completely pointless for the other 99% of the universe? They're already third on average value, out of four. Terran stats are obviously warped by their "default newbie option" status, so Cath basically have the lowest average value of the races we have meaningful stats for.

If we take the focus off the top 100 (and even the top 100 is starting to level out) we would see that Cath are not doing better than other races. It is utterly ridiculous, in the light of these statistics, to claim that Cath are overpowered.
stats are one thing. Common sense is the other.

if you compare the effectiveness of Cath CR fleet to those of Xan Fi you should get the impressinon that Cath are overpowered. Also compare how well both races can steal stuff.
Also try to attack a Terran with Cath Co, its another 0 loss combo. And Ter are supposed to be the Cath counterpart, arent they?
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Unread 27 Aug 2005, 12:32   #47
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agerus
And Ter are supposed to be the Cath counterpart, arent they?
No, they're not.
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Unread 27 Aug 2005, 12:39   #48
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
No, they're not.
Well, if Xans get worked over totally by EMP, and Terrans are heaps vulnerable to both Cathaar attack fleets, that only leaves Caths and Ziks as major enemies.

I dont know what it is about Ziks this round, but i get the distinct feeling that they arent as dangerous as all the other races. Maybe i just havent run into that many of them, but i dont feel scared of a Zik the same as i get scared of a Cath.

Yes, i am scared of Cathaar incoming. It makes me feel impotent. And at my age, that's a bad thing .
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Unread 27 Aug 2005, 13:41   #49
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Re: Stat changes for R15

I suggest Synthetic_Sid.
At least I know he won't try to make some noob idea he dreamed about work.
Or maybe even Jester again.
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Unread 27 Aug 2005, 16:07   #50
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Re: Stat changes for R15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agerus
stats are one thing. Common sense is the other.

if you compare the effectiveness of Cath CR fleet to those of Xan Fi you should get the impressinon that Cath are overpowered. Also compare how well both races can steal stuff.
Also try to attack a Terran with Cath Co, its another 0 loss combo.
So what? You're not quoting common sense there, you're quoting ship stats - abstract "what if" battle calculations.

In the real world Cath do not have an advantage over other races. There may be certain circumstances in which Cath are "overpowered" in terms of the relative strengths of specific individual ships. The fact that the average Cath is not doing significantly better than the average Xan or Zik proves the point that ship stats aren't everything. Perhaps Cath need some of the advantages they have in attacking to make up for the fact that they are far more likely to be attacked than any other race?

The only way to achieve real balance is to eiliminate races altogether. Since that would probably make the game more boring, we are going to have to accept that perfect ship stat balance is never going to happen and probably wouldn't be desirable anyway. Achieving good game balance involves considering a number of factors, of which the ship stats are only one. To make the game fun, it may sometimes be necessary to give some races certain advantages to counteract other (sometimes less obvious) weaknesses that they have (for example, Xan do not require CR/BS ships - this compensates for the disadvantage of slow research time).
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