The open source idea
After looking at the current development of Planetarion, I'm not entirely sure if that much effort is being put into changes between each round. The current developers do this as a thing in their spare time, so sadly we don't expect much. Most of the changes between rounds are generally minor formula tweaks and occasional improvements. A typical example of this are the ETA changes - a few rounds ago we had cluster ETAs again, now we've back to the old ETAs we had a few rounds ago. Maybe alliances will have 5 more members next round, you get the idea.
One huge problem which has slowed down development is the fact that it's damn difficult for Planetarion to get more help in its current state. Anyone officially working on Planetarion needs to agree to the NDA, which many people dislike. It's also hard for PA team to get coders, they only tend to recruit from the support team which limits who they're getting. I'd guess that many of the most talented coders within the Planetarion community are being wasted, they're just coding for their alliances. So, here is my idea. Open source Planetarion development. Anyone can contribute to the development of an open source Planetarion without having to agree to an NDA. The more talented coders could actually contribute something to Planetarion! Jolt would not need to release any existing source code, the community would start from the ground up with a reworked Planetarion code base without any of the weird bugs or problems. If any of the code isn't up to scratch then it doesn't get added. Think of it as PA:Next done right. What would PA team do if this happened? The same as always, run the game in the best way possible. If the NDA was modified then their coders could work on the open source code as well. If for some reason they really wanted to add a surprise feature to the game they could quietly fork the code until the start of a round and then submit the changes so everyone else can work on improving them. Yes, there are some disadvantages to the changes as well, however I'd say it would be more beneficial in the long run for the future of Planetarion. Genuine new features seem to have stopped this round, however the work of many people could bring back new features into the game. Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions on this? |
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one of the main things (in my opinion) thats holding PA back is the fact that its in perl, which not many alliance coders use at the moment. i've been doing some coding for subh during the close round period and they have a couple of decent coders, but (i believe) they only dabble in php. jolt REALLY need to get some form of investment to get PA transformed into php. and yes perl is like php in some ways, but not in other ways.
pa in php along with a modded nda == more developers. |
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Keep in mind that porting it to PHP would require an effort proportional to the amount of effort it took to write the current codebase. |
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I doubt Jolt are going to pay for anyone to port the entire game over to PHP. This was supposed to happen with PA:Next but it failed. Jolt prefers to stay as far back as possible, it's far easier to let someone make simple modifications with the horrid Perl code than to put many hours of effort into something new.
This would be the perfect opportunity to restart the game in PHP, as such an effort would have to start from scratch. Yes it is a bit of a pipe dream. I feel that Planetarion development has stalled so badly that it needs a huge infusion of enthusiasm to bring it back as a great game again. Instead of Appocomaster being the one man band for developing the game, there is the potential for many people to contribute to the improvement of Planetarion. |
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PA development is doing better (or more at least) than it ever has, to be quite honest.
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Interesting idea. Two questions:
- Would jolt support this? - Would PA Team support this? |
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While a good idea it would open the flood gates for a million Planetarion clones even worse than the ones that have come before.
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The key point about Planetarion isn't the code, but more about the community which still plays the same game. There are clones already out there, but the problem is that most of these never find enough players. Any idiot could code their own version in a few months, but the main point with this idea is that it improves Planetarion itself.
I'd like to see Planetarion improve, I'd also like to help improve Planetarion. However I don't want to sign an NDA to do this. This seems a decent solution which could allow myself and others to contribute something to help this game. |
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If copyright on all code created were assigned to Jolt, then Jolt would still retain ownership of all code created. It's still possible to please both sides with an open source idea. |
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Another reason for the NDA is so that all the code belongs to jolt |
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You're asking Jolt to support, as a company, something that allows people to walk along, say "hey, neat game", set up a server, load on the open source code and start what's basically Planetarion. I know Awake mentioned this, but really .... I know there are clones, and some have gone their own way, but it's still a bit of an issue.. If you don't mean open source, but more that people can contribute code to the game, then Jolt are asking you to sign an NDA so you can't say "hey, you've done something that's made me cross, I don't want you using my code any more". It's a legal thing. Also, you still need to decide the features going into the game - there's no use 3 people coding their own versions of the research tree and then aruging about which one is better. And who's in charge of bug fixing it all? Finally, too much change is arguably as bad as none at all. Planetarion, despite the changes since say Round 4, doesn't change a large amount round on round. We usually have something every round or two that's a bit different, and lots of minor changes (and all the arguments about alliance rules, buddy packs, etc), but we don't recode the whole system each round and change everything. That just confuses people and makes them less likely to play. Whilst say the top players can cope, many don't want to have to spend 5 hours talking to people and reading the forums and another 10 in the beta to understand the game before they start playing. If they know that they can go off and come back after a couple of rounds off working or on holiday and still have roughly the same game, they're more likely to play than if they have to re-learn the whole game from scratch. |
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NDAs have nothing to do with ownership of produced code, by the way.
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Frankly, despite admiring the work the current PaTeam ppl put in the game, i think they are crazy :/ |
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The NDA you sign has something stating that things you produce for Planetarion belong to Jolt, and are Jolts if/when you cancel the NDA though. Quote:
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If it starts from scratch then it isn't existing Jolt code, so there is nothing to access there. If the coders were seperate from PA Team then they wouldn't get game access or server access. If such a project required all contributors to assign copyright to Jolt then they'd still own the code, you don't need an NDA to transfer copyright. |
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Really, the only thing it doesn't allow you to do is to work for a competitor to Planetarion for 6 months after your NDA termination. The rest is stuff that's simple command sense, such as; -Don't give out peoples personal information if your given access to the accounts db info. -Don't go leaking game development / new code / current code if given access to it. That's basically all it limits you from doing. In a sense it's basically a piece of paper covering them if you don't apply an ounce of common sense when dealing with sensitive information behind the game. It doesn't actually prevent you from doing anything you currently do unless you work for a competitor of the game as said above, but if you did, why do you want to work for this one in the first place anyway? I think the main issue is an overly large amount of paranoia with these things, people thinking they sign their soul away (joking apart Appoco :P). Before I signed mine I took mine to a lawyer down the road to have a look, it was so short (about a page) that he read it for free. Working on Planetarion no matter what capacity your role takes is, while tiring at times, quite a rewarding thing when it all comes together and works (much like most things in life). I reckon people should try to get past this tiny mole hill which is being made a mountain of and try to help out all they can if they want to. Quote:
Secondly, does it not occur to you why the NDA has to be in place? It's not Jolt trying to make life difficult, it's also to stop you (or anyone else) coding a feature of the game, getting it implemented then turning around and saying "actually, I don't want you to use it any more, give it back" and then you suing Jolt for nicking your code. It's for the same reason that "mind the gap" stickers appear on train platforms, to stop you suing them when you're a retard and fall down the gap. If everyone tries to get past their phobia of a short 1 page document that I doubt half of you have actually read, you might see it's not that scary and perfectly suitable for its needs. |
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Where can we find said document? I think it used to be on the portal, but I don't think that's up yet.
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By owning the copyright a version could be released this month under that license, Jolt could cease open source development and continue things as before. The released version would still have the same license, but by owning the copyright they don't need to seek the permission of all contributors to do what they want with the code (sell, etc.). Quote:
If we go back say 5 years ago I'd agree with you, keeping developed code like this would be highly valuable with hardly any clones out. However I'd hardly say that Planetarion is cutting edge gaming anymore. ;) Anyone with a small amount of time could knock out their own clone. Quote:
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An MMO is better developed by a tighter, smaller and more controlled group than anyone who wants to Quote:
Take the role myself and the other mods do here on the forums.One of the old F-crew HC did almost the exact job we do commercially, working for a company that supplied forum moderation for organisations like the BBC. He was on around £12-14kpa. Based on 2.5k people paying £3.33 to play the game PA has a gross revenue of £8325. You can get maybe 4 rounds in a year so thats £33k before you take out transaction costs, server costs, bandwidth costs ect ect (Yes people will state "Jolt already pay for the servers and bandwidth ect ect even if PA isnt there but from an accounts pov that doesnt matter, while the product is there it is expected to rake on a share of the fixed costs that jolt has) As such the forum mods themselves would eat up all the profit in wages, lets alone PATeam, Coders and the various other staff. Even if you only paid coders and they were working part time you wouldnt get many coders hired for the profit made and by that point any chance of the PA part of jolts business making a positive contribution is out of the window and hence isn't worthwhile keeping running. |
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The reason why I didn't sign the NDA when invited to the PAN development group remains in place.
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Yes but there is a difference between being a twat and calling something shit (derogatory) and giving constructive criticism.
People who work in call centres don't slag off the company they work for or their clients over the phone. Why should you be allowed access into developing the game and be allowed to slag it and the people off who you're doing it for in public as well? |
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Calling people tossers and telling them they're ideas are shit is what private forums / channels are for, which I assume you get access to once you're in.
You don't go doing it in public which is what that clause is about. |
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But if you're not part of PA Team? If you have no such access? It's just too restrictive for people to sign if they're not part of PA Team. |
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is it really that hard to hold your tongue? and is that really the only reason you didn't sign it?
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For example, a coder, not in PA Team will get access to the code. Depending on the job / role you fulfil will depend on what you get access too. Plus, if your working in a team with people who have different access you want them to all be able to discusses things from a central focus with out all the mess off "oo we can't say that here because so n so hasn't signed the nda so we can't tell him / her that, so really it's pointless him / her being here even though they could give a valid contribution." The NDA isn't just a clearance so you can get access to buttons. It's information of a potentially sensitive nature that you might come across / be exposed to that it covers as well. |
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Plus if the only reason you didn't sign the NDA was because you want to reserve the right to be rude in public towards those doing the work then you don't deserve to be on on such a program / project anyway to be quite frank.
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Marv, don't be a patronising idiot. I completely understand how an NDA works and why it's needed for people who work with the code. However, people in the past have been asked to sign the NDA for positions that aren't part of PA Team nor have access to the code.
I was one of those people asked to do so. I saw no reason to sign something that curtailed my speech across all of the forums on any issue to do with Planetarion (not just regarding PAN development). The NDA does not need to be as wide-ranging as it is for people in non-PA Team/coding positions, and in fact I suggested to Appocomaster at the time a number of amendments that would make me willing to sign it. Suffice it to say that Jolt were not willing to budge. Quote:
To quote from me at the time: Quote:
I would add to this post the responses of Appocomaster and biffy, but I'd rather have their permission to do so first. |
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So you think that people should be allowed to be involved with development of the game & be allowed to broadcast it as they so wish? While at the same time allowed to be rude towards people on the forums?
Sorry mate but pull your head out of your arse and get real. PAN was a project to radically change Planetarion on a longer term scale. All clause 2.4 does is stop you from publically criticise and put down something you are involved with. It doesn't stop you calling the alliance you don't like crap or the people you think make shit posts tossers. Quote:
Just because you're not in PA Team or a coder doesn't mean you're not going to be privy to information the team / Jolt want kept under wraps until such time as it's released. Plus I stand by the point if you won't sign it just based on 2.4 as you stated in your initial post above, you really have some sort of knob head complex you need to resolve. |
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I edited my post, doubt you saw it before making yours. Have a read.
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If the NDA was just there to stop you from using confidential information against them, there would be no need for section 2.4 as section 1.1 does the job perfectly well. Quote:
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My suggested amendment was as such: Quote:
So yeah, big bad furball who wants to leak all the information and say nasty things about PAN :rolleyes: Quote:
Of course, a couple of months later I was invited to the mods team and there are numerous unwritten rules to obey if you're a mod - but those don't involve Jolt potentially suing you for damages if you breach them :) |
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So why, when you have all that explanation & reason behind your decision, make such an obnoxious post initially?
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An idea like this could work if a few people got together and worked on it, however once the clone is at a point where it's nearly identical to Planetarion - what happens next? New features would have to be added by PA Team as they're the ones with an idea of the direction to take. A bunch of random coders could add features they feel the game needs but neither the public or PA Team want.
I'm surprised that there aren't that many other Perl programmers working on the game. I know it's a bit of an old language and not flavour of the month like PHP or Python, but it's a fairly solid language which PHP developers should be able to get to grips with. Add mod_perl and you've got a highly flexible programming language highly integrated into the web server. I'd say the game needs more Perl programmers, not an open source movement! :p |
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We are lucky that Jolt still allows this game to run. It does not make much of a profit and the majority of the people working on the game are doing it out of pure love for the game and the community.
Maybe some of you will remember why PA was sold to Jolt in the first place. Spinner and CO. could no longer afford to pay to keep the game running and Jolt provided more server space for code and database. The downside was that pay to play started but in general the upside is less frequent downtimes and fast recovery when there is a total failure. You want to help out with coding then sign the NDA and get typing. You want to get paid then you better look elsewhere. If you want total control over PA then buy it away from Jolt. I am sure they would be more than willing to sell it for the right price. |
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what i dislike about the NDA or you lot is the lack of understanding that
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i wonder if the multihunters had to sign this NDA... if so the word cheaters should never come out of their mouth as it is pretty derogatory to me. |
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But otherwise I agree with Travler completely, if you want to help sign the NDA and volunteer your time. Me I can't code worth crap, and the PA NDA might theoretically conflict with my other professional NDAs if I signed it, so I have to stay out of direct development. But for the rest of you, go sign the NDA, perhaps learn to be more careful about how you word your criticism of PA (which can allow you to circumvent the 'restricted speech' part of the NDA) and help the community. |
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i have to agree with furball on clause 2.4, its signing away your right to free speech !
example : as soon as someone says openly .. *i hate so and so* they have broken the NDA. (after all, within any work place theres going to be collegues we dont like, thats life) clause 2.4 needs a clearer definition, and a bit of sanity, i wouldnt personally sign it with 2.4 in place. |
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Despite the investment initially that didn't happen which meant that alot of the promises never bore fruit as it just wasn't financially viable. If they had been more realistic with their goals they would have probably all been met and we would have all been more satisfied. The second problem is connected, when the community got annoyed with promises not being met and voiced their concern Jolt decided not to explain themselves. An honest response would have probably gone down well, the response we got were bans on people, requests to the mods to have people censored ect ect as they believed that a forums that seemed completely happy was a better marketing tool than issues being raised and then answered openly and honestly. Their choice seemed to backfire and built up the rep that Jolt are "money grabbers who dont care" |
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Perl in and of itself is a simple, robust, and easy to learn language. Its incredibly similar to PHP in many ways, and many programmers could easily transition over to Perl. Regardless of its similarities though, any half-decent programmer can program in any language. Once you understand the concepts and principles of programming, it is strictly a matter of syntax to get the desired result in the language you choose.
While I'd like to see Planetarion's code become publicly available so that we could help fix all the glitches and bugs with the code, along with adding in necessary features, I can completely understand the necessity of keeping the code closed source. There just needs to be more incentive provided to the people who will step up and give their free time and energy to better the game for Jolt and its customers. |
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How does a programmer who doesn't have any interest in joining the support team get noticed by PA Team? This is another one of the reasons for my idea, there is very little recruitment for staff so there is very little improvement in the game. It would've given many other people the opportunity to help.
Nearly all of the interesting positions within Planetarion aren't advertised, you only tend to recruit from the support team. People in this thread have suggested that the NDA isn't that bad, and that we should all do our bit for Planetarion. How do you contribute something to people who don't seem to want help? |
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Still bugs me they sold it to Jolt and not to Hinch :(
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