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Snurx

22 Jul 2005 22:07

London today

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

Quote:

"One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him," he said.

Now, I don't know anything about this, exept what I read in that article and what I saw on Norwegian news today.
However, one of the witness reports on the news shocked me. According to him, the police ran after the man and catched him. Then, two plainclothes cops held him down while the last one shot him! As far as I know, disobeying a police officer is not a crime punishabale by death (UK don't even have the death penalty, if I have my facts straight)

I was just wondering if you guys (I presume the UK news has given more info out on this, or at least had a more updated report)
Also, what does people think about this? Is the fact that it's not a regular criminal but a potential (with stress on potentia) terrorist make this more ok? What's the public reaction, if any, to this? To me, right now, this sounds more like a execution then anything else, but as I said, I don't know the full situation.

arbondigo

22 Jul 2005 22:11

Re: London today

Personally i'd have given him a shoeing first.

The_Fish

22 Jul 2005 22:13

Re: London today

I think most people are glad he's dead. If he went through our justice system, he'd have been out in 5 years. And Whilst he was there, he'd have had sky tv in his personal room.

Snurx

22 Jul 2005 22:18

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Fish

I think most people are glad he's dead. If he went through our justice system, he'd have been out in 5 years. And Whilst he was there, he'd have had sky tv in his personal room.

Yeah, that might be. But these terrorists, are they any worse then for instance childmolesters (Of the big kind, you know, child prono rings?) Or rapists? Or serial killers, who also holds people in terror? Or [insert crime here]?
Should they, if they are as bad or worse then terrorists, also be shot if they refuse to obey the police?
And isn't it questionabale to just gun down a person? As I said before, I do not know the whole situation, but there are a thousand reasons to run from the police, even if he came from a "terrorist hangout" (For the lack of a better expression).

And is the death penalty, in your opinion, a good thing?

Nusselt

22 Jul 2005 22:20

Re: London today

Apparently under new anti-terrorism guidelines the police have been instructed to 'shoot to kill'. The difference with current guidelines is that they shoot for the largest body mass (the chest) they 'shoot to incapcitate'. Under the new guidelines they are no longer under any perrogative to try to keep a suicide bomber for example alive, they aim specifically for the head. So in the example the police probably thought he was still a threat even whilst trying to subdue him, so they blew his head off.

**** me sideways and call me a bitch but am i going to come to a screeching halt everytime i hear police.

Oh and im really surprised (though i probably shouldn't be) at the number of armed plainsclothes police that seem to be about.

Che	22 Jul 2005 22:24

Re: London today

Just a few points....

1) Would it not have been better to try and get some information outta the guy? No-one still knows why he ran from the police, but if I seen people running at me with handguns I'd be worried. In that situation I mightn't hear them shouting anyhting at me...

2) one guy said " He half-tripped and was half pushed to the floor by the men". It was after they had him on the ground that they fired five bullets into his head. Maybe it's just me, but is that not excessive force??? Surely once they had him pinned down, they had control of the situation....

The_Fish

22 Jul 2005 22:37

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Che

1) Maybe so, but I personally wouldnt risk my life to get some information.

2) The guy was trying to kill people. I dont care if its excessive force or not. If they aren't as harsh as they were, they might have died alongside him. He was probably going to die anyways, but he wanted to take people with him. I am glad he's been killed. Might send a message to the rest of the ****s, but I doubt it.

The Muslim community needs to take more responsibility for the attacks, and try to stop them. They have done nothing but claim they dont agree with it. They MUST know that some of the muslims in the area are extremists. They should have been notified to the police. Everyone is scared of upsetting the muslims, for fear of a religious war. However, they need to do all they can to stop this happening.

Yahwe

22 Jul 2005 22:45

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Fish

The Muslim community needs to take more responsibility for the attacks, and try to stop them. They have done nothing but claim they dont agree with it. They MUST know that some of the muslims in the area are extremists. They should have been notified to the police. Everyone is scared of upsetting the muslims, for fear of a religious war. However, they need to do all they can to stop this happening.

that's not true the leading muslim scholars (immams) in the UK declared a fatwa against anyone who takes part in or supports terrorist activities

in religious terms you might understand that is excomunication.

they said any terrorist stops being a muslim. to terrorists motivated by religion what better punishment is there?

Che	22 Jul 2005 22:46

Re: London today

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the past attempts have all been through bombs in back-packs... this guy didin't have any kind of bag, was carrying nothing. If he had have had something on him, he woulda dentonated in the crowd in the station. If the cops were soo worried about explosives, they would not have " half pushed" him onto the train.

As for the muslims not trying to stop things, here's a question. How can you know what someone is going to do. I went to school, played football with, even went to the pub with a guy who, one day took a bomb into a shop in belfast that killed 10 people. I had no idea he was even involved in anything. They have evaded the police, MI5/6 etc because they don't go spreading what they do around...

Yahwe

22 Jul 2005 22:47

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Che

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the past attempts have all been through bombs in back-packs... this guy didin't have any kind of bag, was carrying nothing. If he had have had somehting on him, he woulda dentonated in the crowd in the station. If the cops were soo worried about explosives, they would not have " half pushed" him onto the train.

with respect to you because you are new.

we do not know the truth yet.

you can't pass judgement until the truth is known.

Che	22 Jul 2005 22:58

Re: London today

point taken...

Yahwe

22 Jul 2005 23:03

Re: London today

i remember the day of the attack on new york. i had 5 sepparate sources

all telling me utterly contradictory things.

there's no shame in life in remembering that "it isn't until the dust settles that one can truly see"

s\|k	22 Jul 2005 23:14

Re: London today

I think this will have more of an effect on outsiders perception of Britain than any speech Tony Blair will ever give. All day today on US public radio they have been talking about this incident. Just the visual image of this event is so contrary to anything anyone expected.

QazokRouge5

22 Jul 2005 23:21

Re: London today

Any loss of life is regrettable, as for why this happened or if it was purposeful, or if he was a terrorist, we may never know.

Dante Hicks

22 Jul 2005 23:30

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snurx

I was just wondering if you guys (I presume the UK news has given more info out on this, or at least had a more updated report)
Also, what does people think about this? Is the fact that it's not a regular criminal but a potential (with stress on potentia) terrorist make this more ok? What's the public reaction, if any, to this? To me, right now, this sounds more like a execution then anything else, but as I said, I don't know the full situation.

Most people I have spoken to here in London are waiting to here the full report on what happened. What's come out so far is that police knew/thought he had some sort of "belt bomb" (?) and were trying to stop further loss of life by shooting him.

Most people are nervous generally of the police shooting people, but I think it's generally accepted that people who attempt to blow up trains full of people might be considered rather dangerous and therefore might need extra force to stop them.

I doubt many people would give a shit one way or another about the man himself. Even statements from various Muslim groups have centred around whether this reflects a change in policy generally / could happen again.

Lupin

22 Jul 2005 23:38

Re: London today

what kind of police shot this man? special unit?

from what i know uk policemen are not allowed to wear weapons.

NEWSBOT3

22 Jul 2005 23:45

Re: London today

SO19 is

Dace	23 Jul 2005 00:06

Re: London today

If the words "armed police halt" were shouted and he didn't (halt that is) no matter what else is or was the case, whether he had a bomb or anything, the guy deserves to be dead for being so ****ing retarded as to continue running what with the current climet being what it is (Darwin Award nominee etc).

Dace	23 Jul 2005 00:16

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

I think if the police did start randomly killing people for being stupid eventually you would have to shut the tube network down for all the bodies. No doubt further facts will emerge.

Yes indeed but speculation is all we have atm so just enjoy it etc.

Cuddley_Battleship

23 Jul 2005 00:18

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dace

No shit. I just have to express my sympathy for the poor sop that has to hose/scrub that car.

G.K Zhukov

23 Jul 2005 00:20

Re: London today

Atleast its not becouse of Iraq.

Phang

23 Jul 2005 00:36

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

Again the details seem sketchy, not that it matters now but did he actually HAVE a bomb on his person? I do wonder about the police, you know what with them being a bunch of ****ing fascists and all.

well earlier eyewitnesses were reporting wires trailing from his jacket, so if he wasn't covered in semtex he presumably looked like he was.

Tactitus

23 Jul 2005 00:37

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahwe

I hope it has some effect but I'm not holding my breath. Those who really believe they're following the will of God aren't likely to listen to mere immams.

A panel of spanish immams (finally!) issued the first fatwa against bin Laden and al Qaeda in March of this year but I can't say I've noticed any results. :/

Yahwe

23 Jul 2005 00:40

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactitus

spain has

s\|k	23 Jul 2005 01:29

Re: London today

On BBC News Hour this morning a witness to the scene was on the air and he said something like "He [the suspect] was terrified and running. He looked absolutely terrified and they shot him. He was terrified and now he's dead." The witness was completely revolted by the sight of seeing a subdued man, on the ground, with people on him (is that what happened?) shot anyways.

Personally I think that if he was down, what's the point of shooting him? I want to know why he was shot. Exactly why. And if it turns out to be some vague answer as "we thought he was dangerous and wasn't listening to us" then I think an investigation needs to take place.

Phang

23 Jul 2005 01:32

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by s|k

Personally I think that if you're down, what's the point of shooting him? I want to know why he was shot. Exactly why. And if it turns out to be some vague answer as "we thought he was dangerous and wasn't listening to us" then I think an investigation needs to take place.

scotland yard have already said he was being tailed in connection with yesterday's bombings. what ever the exact details, they're working well within the 'shoot to kill' policy they've adopted in this regard, and in the very short term at least the 'shoot to kill' policy may well be neccessary because the second set of bombs has shown that this is not following the single-event pattern of 9/11, bali and madrid.

s\|k	23 Jul 2005 01:36

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phang

Well that's all nice and interesting but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by New York Times

A witness who had been sitting on a Northern Line subway train at Stockwell station said the man had been pursued by plainclothes police officers who fired five shots at close range.

"I was sitting on the train,' Mark Whitby said. "I heard a lot of noise, people saying, 'Get out, get down.' I saw an Asian guy. He ran on to the train, he was hotly pursued by three plain clothes officers, one of them was wielding a black handgun. He half tripped. They pushed him to the floor and basically unloaded five shots into him."

As the man stumbled onto the train, Mr. Whitby told the BBC, "I looked at his face, he looked sort of left and right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, a cornered fox."

"He looked absolutely petrified and then he sort of tripped, but they were hotly pursuing him," he said. The police officers "couldn't have been any more than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half tripped and was half pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand."

"He held it down to the guy and unloaded five shots into him," Mr Whitby said. Some British reports said the man's heavy clothing may have persuaded police officers that he was carrying a suicide bomb.

...doesn't portray the image of a shoot-to-kill-is-necessary kind of situation.

Edit: if they thought that he had some kind of remote device that might start an explosion that would make some sense, but can't they use tasers or something?

Yahwe

23 Jul 2005 01:43

Re: London today

**** the new york times

all their story means is that some arsehole reporter managed to cobble together a few hundred words

this is england ffs

do you want to know everything about a shooting on stockwell underground station? well bully for you because the fact is WE DON'T KKNOW YET

s\|k	23 Jul 2005 01:45

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahwe

I just posted witness accounts. Did the New York Times cobble those too?

Yahwe

23 Jul 2005 01:52

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by s|k

I just posted witness accounts. Did the New York Times cobble those too?

what do they mean?

hmmmm??

who verifies them? who checks them out?

you're american and it is a very sad fact that america's impatience has lead to it's citizens being happier with the first convincing lie

you have no patience to wait for the truth

well let the rest of us wait for the truth. it takes longer than your 'big mac' takes to cook i'm afraid.

Phang

23 Jul 2005 02:02

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by s|k

...doesn't portray the image of a shoot-to-kill-is-necessary kind of situation.

if they'd been tailing him in connection with a series of suicide bombs in places exactly like that and very very recently and they'd sent twenty officers after him and rather than surrendering he'd fled - we're talking ****ing acrobatics here, vaulting turnstiles and shit - into a heavily crowded area, the last thing you're giving him is the benefit of the doubt. If he'd had a bomb jacket, which some eyewitness reports suggest he did, he HAD to be taken down. if he didn't have a bomb jacket, it was still highly probably he had some kind of explosive, and HAD to be taken down. We can rationalise and pontificate after the event, but given what they knew - hell, what WE know - of the man and his actions, it was a legitimate call to make sure he didn't kill any innocents.

Yahwe

23 Jul 2005 02:07

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phang

If he'd had a bomb jacket, which some eyewitness reports suggest he did, he HAD to be taken down.

or a detonator which as we saw in milan work from a distance and can be as big as a mobile phone

EDIT: we have laws in this country. if the officer murdered an innocent he will be held to account. but in the absense of truth to damn that officer is absurd. when the dust settles we will know the truth. everyone: even a police officer, is innocent until proven guilty. i despise this mob justice. this judging via the media.

Tactitus

23 Jul 2005 02:53

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahwe

spain has

So I see.

Hicks

23 Jul 2005 03:27

Re: London today

I know what Jack Bauer would have done and asking him to stop nicely wasn't it.

If I was a police officer lying on top of a suspected terrorist who I had reason to believe had a bomb strapped to his belt (As many of the eye witness accounts point to) which could be detonated at the touch of a button blowing up an entire underground carriage then I know what I'd do and what I'd expect the police to do, if it does turn out he didn't have a bomb on him but was one of those involved in the earlier bombings then those officers made the right call.

s\|k	23 Jul 2005 05:29

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahwe

You, mr weird internet person with a god gimmick that ran out of steam ages ago, have not demonstrated the credentials nor have earned the credibility, at least from my perspective and to my tastes (and you are speaking to me), to question the veracity of 'The Record.'

s\|k	23 Jul 2005 05:34

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phang

You know, deep down I know you're right. But I just hate seeing a guy held down and shot dead. It just find it revolting, despite the fact that it may been good judgment and possibly saved many lives. I'm not saying it was the wrong choice, just a horrible thing altoghter.

Vaio	23 Jul 2005 06:20

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue

I think if the police did start randomly killing people for being stupid eventually you would have to shut the tube network down for all the bodies.

Plus, who would drive the trains ?

Vaio	23 Jul 2005 06:22

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by s|k

Well that's all nice and interesting but...

...doesn't portray the image of a shoot-to-kill-is-necessary kind of situation.

Edit: if they thought that he had some kind of remote device that might start an explosion that would make some sense, but can't they use tasers or something?

Don't tasers generate electricity, the same stuff used to set off detonators ?

Vaio	23 Jul 2005 06:24

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by s|k

Unfortunatly, when someone decides that if they blow up a bus/train/building/airliner full of people because it gets them into heaven, horrible things have to be done to protect the population.

It sucks but i'd rather it happened than it didn't and another bomb went off.

Texan

23 Jul 2005 07:13

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahwe

we do not know the truth yet.

you can't pass judgement until the truth is known.

Did you forget that this is GD, Yahwe?

Judgement is often passed before the truth is known.

Judgement is often adhered to even after the facts prove the original judgement false.

If this had happened in the United States, the GD population would have been all over it passing judgement like madmen at the Broadmoor.

Dante Hicks

23 Jul 2005 07:24

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by New York Times

As the man stumbled onto the train, Mr. Whitby told the BBC, "I looked at his face, he looked sort of left and right, but he basically looked like a cornered rabbit, a cornered fox."

"He looked absolutely petrified and then he sort of tripped, but they were hotly pursuing him," he said. The police officers "couldn't have been any more than two or three feet behind him at this time and he half tripped and was half pushed to the floor and the policeman nearest to me had the black automatic pistol in his left hand."

Forgive me for being callous but you can tell this story is rather thin when they start focussing on how "terrified" the suspect looked. Of coruse he did, coppers with ****ing handguns were running after him, and besides he was in Stockwell, he was probably worried he'd get mugged or bump into those ****ing gypsy kids who play the accordian.

"Terrorists" get scared too. Wow, that's news. They bleed the same colour as everyone else, and when they die they don't laugh in an evil Hollywood movie style. It'll probably emerged he pissed or shit himself too. And that won't be news either, and certainly won't affect how just this was (or wasn't for that matter).

s\|k	23 Jul 2005 08:23

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaio

Don't tasers generate electricity, the same stuff used to set off detonators ?

That's almost clever.

Gayle29uk

23 Jul 2005 11:05

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nusselt

This is just semantics for the public and civil servants/government. If you're not trying to kill someone then you don't shoot, if you need them dead then you do.

Phang

23 Jul 2005 11:12

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gayle29uk

If you're not trying to kill someone then you don't shoot, if you need them dead then you do.

er, no. if you want someone stopped and quickly, you shoot, and if you want them to stay stopped, you shoot to kill. it's not a particularly complex system.

Gayle29uk

23 Jul 2005 11:17

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phang

er, no. if you want someone stopped and quickly, you shoot, and if you want them to stay stopped, you shoot to kill. it's not a particularly complex system.

You can't shoot to wound someone reliably unless you're really REALLY good (world class type good).

Also, if you need to shoot someone then you either need to stop them doing something very bad (from your point of view) or you don't need to shoot them. If you need to stop them that badly then you don't want them wounded and even more desperate so you kill them.

Soldiers have understood this for a long time, it works the same way for police. If you need to shoot someone then you need to kill them, there is no shoot to wound in the real world.

Phang

23 Jul 2005 11:20

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gayle29uk

You can't shoot to wound someone reliably unless you're really REALLY good (world class type good).

yes, it's not a foolproof system. but if you need to shoot to wound, killing them is an acceptable risk. if you need to shoot to kill, you just ****ing kill them.

Gayle29uk

23 Jul 2005 11:24

Re: London today

But why would you ever need to shoot to wound? There are times when it would certainly be useful but then it's not a need and if you don't need to use a gun then you don't.

Phang

23 Jul 2005 11:25

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gayle29uk

But why would you ever need to shoot to wound? There are times when it would certainly be useful but then it's not a need and if you don't need to use a gun then you don't.

when you need someone stopped right now but you wouldn't mind interrogating them afterwards, for one?

Gayle29uk

23 Jul 2005 11:28

Re: London today

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phang

when you need someone stopped right now but you wouldn't mind interrogating them afterwards, for one?

If you need them stopping that badly and that quickly then they're obviously going to do something so bad that you can't risk leaving them wounded and desperate, you kill them.

Nadar

23 Jul 2005 11:30

Re: London today

Afaik it hasn't been confirmed that he actually were a terrorist. Maybe he just were in a hurry to reach the train? Last one seems unlikely though, but come on, I wouldn't run to catch the train in London nowadays, that's for sure.

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