An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Can you blame them?


600 dead, a third of them children.
60 dead, half of them children.

Who are the terrorists now ?

**** ISRAEL

BBC News Reporter on site

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Yes.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Its not Isreal's fault, they didn't start it. I mean, killing innocent civillians in response to the kidnap of two military personnel is perfectly justifiable. After all the little ones grow up to be big ones, amirite? :mad:


Oh, and :

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Israel just lost the war.

And **** *** to condi & the americans, it was your bombs and your planes.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

The entire G7 country community is to blame for this stupidity. Stop supporting Israel damnit!

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

before i go any further can i just say im NOT supporting israel here, but, if they were to pull their troops out and stop bomming, what do you HONESTLY think would hapeen?

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

if, added to that, they release the 10k prisoners and get the **** out of the illegally occupied territories, then they might get some peace.

you know, not giving terrorists reasons to attack them might be a good start :up:

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Pretty shit excuse to carry on bombing. We've bombed them so much that if we withdraw they might attack us :(

We need some kind of international stabalising force in there. Perhaps a big enough one that Israel wouldn't randomly attack them.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

A large portion of the Middle East would probably benefit from more policing, but that can only be provided with the consent of those living in the area.


Is this actually your approach to the situation?

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

there is a certain logic in avoiding provoking ones adversary unnecessarily.
you dont go around kicking open a bee hive when you get stung now do you?

not unless you want to get stung a hell of a lot more times. Sure the hive will die out after youve stomped all over it but theres no need to.
Just poison the hive and let it die without being stung in the process
ideologically speaking ( not chemically ) - thats what they should do in the middle east.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

I know you're sarcastic here, but there's people who have the opinion that Israel didn't start it. Sure, they kidnapped Israeli soldiers, but what about the thousands of soldiers and civilians from Palestina/Lebanon the Israeli forces have captured and locked inside a cage for years?

Like Flavius so perfectly put it: **** Israel, they're nothing but war-mongers. If it was up to me, Israel as a country would be dissolved instantly.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Yes.

I cannot help being biased. My girlfriend and her family are still in Lebanon, and I've been fearing for her safety since this thing started.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Please tell us more about what they should do in the middle east.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Stop being the occupying force.
Stop being the Golias.

Release the prisoners.

Etc..

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Demands like those are not going to move anyone closer to peace. Having said that, I have little doubt that the people involved in this conflict will continue having it your way.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

I can honestly say that I don't care any more *. Obviously everyone in the middle east is completly insane. the only way for peace in the middle east is to build a large wall around it and then nuke everything inside.



* At least as long as it doesn't influence the oil / fuel prices, which kind of sucks.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

• withdraw to their own internationally recognised borders
• drop the arrogance, aggression and cycle of revenge
• drop the hostilities
• start diplomacy again
• request that an international force patrols the border, rather then their own trigger happy troops
• drop the victim pretense which they've clung onto since ww2
• recognise that arming themselves with things like nukes only destabalises the entire region further
• concentrate on internal security rather then border skirmishes.
• apologise for any and all atrocities committed by them
• ask the US to kindly stop interfering in the region - something which only makes matters worse

the other surrounding countries should

• call a ceasefire
• stop the incursions into israel
• release prisoners
• start diplomacy again
• detain the more extremist/insane religious leaders and keep them where they cant do any harm
• accept an international force to patrol their borders with israel - rather then watch the israelis do it themselves with itchy trigger fingers.
• drop the aggression and cycle of revenge
• concentrate on cleaning their own house up
• apologise for any and all atrocities they committed.

that would be a good start. from there - let diplomacy take its course ( diplomacy being the poison for the ideologies there )

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

• withdraw to their own internationally recognised borders
• request that an international force patrols the border, rather than the IDF
• concentrate on internal security rather then border skirmishes.

The withdrawal of Israel from occupied/disputed territories would lead to two problems; abandoning Israeli settlers in those areas and potential destabilisation in those areas. The occupation is indeed at the very least morally ambiguous, but cannot be reversed overnight. As for those forces in Lebanon, it would be difficult to withdraw them without a replacement force to police the area.

• recognise that arming themselves with things like nukes only destabalises the entire region further

It would be pretty unreasonable to expect Israel to disarm its nuclear arsenal. Despite similar pressure being applied on other nuclear powers, there is no precedent.

• apologise for any and all atrocities committed by them

This never happens.

• ask the US to kindly stop interfering in the region - something which only makes matters worse

The United States is Israel's main ally, as I'm sure you know.

• drop the hostilities
• start diplomacy again

Absolutely.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

den den der der der der der den den derr derrrr
:)
( star trek tos fight music )

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

I don't disagree with most in that ultimately Israel should stay within their own borders, disarm and consume 250% more MDMA but I think it's ridiculous that these demands are bandied around as part of a short-term peace plan. Those proposals have little to do with diplomacy.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

those demands are the only way that the democratic process can be restarted under since otherwise it'll just be undermined

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Whose democratic process are we restarting here?

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

democratic was perhaps the wrong word - I meant diplomatic - where both sides get a slap around the back of the head, are told to behave and work out their differences.

all these words beginning with d and ending in "atic" :(

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

I'm sorry if my opinion offends you, I just do see how this is ever going to stop. As soon as one side drops all hossilities the other side interprets that as weakness, bombs even more and tries to get more out of any peace-deal.
the rest of the world doesnt help much either ("yes, we want Palestine to be democratic, at least as long as they vote for the right guys, if not we'll stop giving them money" :rolleyes:, pure brilliance, that's exactly how democracy is goign to work)

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

It was the "lets stop it all by nuking them all" kind of comment that I wasn't impressed with.
It's generally one spouted by complete idiots and racists. I know (hope) it wasn't serious but so many people actually think that it would be a good idea that you've got to be careful.

What do you think about the German army being sent in as a peacekeeping force? I'm sure it wouldn't go down well in Israel.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Diplomacy would have been a better way to handle world war II.

However, diplomacy only works if both sides are willing to use it. In the middle east, neither side is willing to use it. The Israelis are willing to rely on their military might. The Syrians and Iranis are willing to wage war through a proxy and are aiming at a public relations victory.

The Lebanese are caught in the middle.

Hezbollah launches rockets from civilian neighborhoods AT civilian neighborhoods and then cry foul when civilians get killed when the Israelis try to take the rockets out.

There is crying about civilian casualties though Hezbollah dresses as civilians and hides among the civil population.

Every time the Israelis have withdrawn from a territory, they have been rewarded with attacks from that territory. That they want defensible borders is not unreasonable.

Israel was attacked by what six arab nations on the date of its independence. Egypt only agreed to a diplomatic solution after it had gotten its arse kicked in several wars.

Israel fears, and rightly so, that a cease fire will only be used to rearm, regroup and attack them again.

Those like Flavius who wish to see the state of Israel cease to exist number just about every arab country and muslim country in the world. Where is the pressure on the Lebanese government to disarm Hezbollah? Where is the pressure on Syria and Iran to get the hell out of the matter? Israel was born in a corner of hate. That they fight should be expected.

Do you think that if Hezbollah put down their arms that Israel would randomly blow up Lebanese civilians for recreation?

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Democracy also means that others don't have to go along with your decisions.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Oh NOW Blair speaks out against it...

(breaking news on the bbc website so no link yet)

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

yes, you can blame them.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Im not really sure what you mean by blame, the UN obviously didn't directly have anything to do with the bombing, the fustrations of weeks of attack and turmoil are just being vented. It isn't an overly rational act but it is understandable.

If i thought Israel was likely to get something from all this id understand their attitude, but they aren't going to get their soilders back by occupying southern lebanon, if hezbollah have longer range rockets they aren't even going to stop the attacks.

If you wage war you wage it with a purpose, with a defined and achievable objective in mind. Those two israeli soilders aren't going to be rescued by the IDF - they're deep in some annoymous basement.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Hi dda.

Considering your recent thread about people who doesnt know shit and generally beeing ignorent, this is a rather sad post coming from you. Your post consists of weak Israeli PR. Having watched some CNN and BBC today, Im soon going to start suspect your not living in the US, but is a spokesperson from the Israeli Army.

And just to point out one clear mistake in what you wrote:

See Egypt. Also see Jordan.


I know you americans are brought up with the Israeli lies since you started in kindergarten, but there are europeans reading this forum, and we havent bought into that crap (expect nodrog and so on).

Cheers, Zhukov

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Israel asked UNIFIL to evacuate two cities in the south, Ramyah and Ayta ash-Shab, before sunset. Are they out of their minds?

"Here, let me bomb all the airports, bridges, roads, border exits and close the airspace/ports, and then kill 4 UN people and 35 children. Then I will ask you to use MAGIC to evacuate people from cities so I can bomb them."

wtf is up with Israel. And then they have the guts of blaming the civilian deaths on Hezbollah ?

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

I think you are forgetting something Flav. They have also bombed the petrol stations...

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

I think taking 'sides' in all this is rather pointless. The bottom line is that we have a pair of armies, ****s to a man, getting people who don't want to be involved, in a conflict and causing unnecessary deaths. None of it is justifiable.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5229058.stm
Bush wants sustainable peace that will enable mothers and fathers of dead children to see them dead in a hopeful world.

Bush wants to raise an army of zombies.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

This is the crux of the matter - diplomacy is a tool to bring about a compromise between two sides, not one for a third party to bring those two sides into co-operative subjugation. The position of some posters in this thread seems to be that we should instigate 'diplomacy' in the region to bring Israel into line, and that this can be achieved by making demands of them that would at the very least destroy the political base of that country's government*. If we expect any result in that region, given the nature of the situation we should expect it to be a slow and drawn out process. That's diplomacy.



*An Israeli government that abandoned Israeli settlements in Gaza/the West Bank/Golan Heights, brought about a nuclear disarmament and cut off ties to the USA would have absolutely zero chance of re-election.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

And hospitals, and food silos, and water reserves, and tv antennas, and red cross ambulances, and minivans with people ..


At least they've shown the world they are winning. 750+ deaths for Lebanon. 50+ deaths for Israel.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Maybe if the Lebanese government had tried to prevent Hezbollah from attacking Israel from within their territory then Israel wouldnt have had to take matters into their own hands :confused:

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Maybe if Israel had released the prisoners then Hezbollah wouldn't have kidnapped Israelis in an attempt to exchange prisoners.

Maybe if Israel hadn't occupied Lebanon for 22 years then Hezbollah wouldn't have emerged.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

I didnt know it was wrong, morally or by international law, to attack soldiers that occupy someones country/part of country.

Im expecting Nodrog to launch a staunch attack on the norwegian resistance during WWII to german rule.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Yes, let's just release prisoners who have attacked our cities and people! That sounds like a good thing to do!

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

hey it worked in ireland!!

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

flavius i want my wallet back.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5211930.stm
2 thousand prisoners without trial? 74 women? 265 under-18s? Surely they're all terrorists.

http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/3348
The Palestinian Cabinet is also terrorist.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Are you seriously trying to argue that neither women nor those under 18 can be terrorists?


You complete and utter ****wit.



Hurrah, a left-wing think tank. I can't possibly imagine which side they fall on!

Probably.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

luckily i'm only sharing an internetforums with you, not a bus.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Well, you sure left his arguments in ruins.

I'm going to have to call you out on a mildish case of numbers 1-3 and 5, and a blatant, textbook case of number 6.

Israel wasn't occupying Lebanese territory, yet Hezbollah were firing rockets into Israel. Israel is acting out of self-defence, and I'm sure they'd rather not have a single Israeli soldier on Lebanese soil if they didn't deem it absolutely necessary for the safety of their civilians, whom it is their job to protect. Although their response may seem disproportionate in terms of the numbers of civilians they've killed, for that we can at least partially thank Hezbollah for deliberately locating themselves in densely populated areas so as to maximise civilian casualties and cause the exact sort of reaction you are displaying.

I very much doubt Israel's actions will prove anything but counterproductive, but what else could they do, considering that the instinct for self-preservation, public opinion, ingrained hatreds and the lessons of history all militate against the best long-term solution, a complete withdrawal to their internationally recognised borders? Do you seriously expect any government to stand by and watch their cities being attacked and their soldiers kidnapped without attempting to prevent it?

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Though this is true i think its also quite obviously unrealistic, after the withdrawl of the syrians last year the lebanese government weren't strong enough to confront hezbollah nor would a responsible politician have done so a mere matter of months into a 'free country'

This is one of those situations where i can't really say anything except it doesn't make much sense (and thats taking into account the times in which we live!). Hezbollah were incredibly shit and self serving to do what they did, the israelis are being incredibly shit in bombing the **** out of an entire nation over two soilders.

Re: An angry crowd is attacking the UN building
 

Ah! So you have job prospects then.