Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round
You get calcs like this http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...5kyzaisct94y0t
Seriously what the **** do you want the xan to do there, whore more emp defence or accept the fact he loses value even if not a single ship actually gets to cap? That said I imagine quite a lot of people who will read this are retarded and won't get how staggeringly gay this sort of stuff actually is so I'll post a slightly different calc which will happen later in the round. http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...kizr1xtxoeg1uu Your reward here for having some faggot decide to crash and lose his entire fleet on your def is that your def loses 300k value. On the scale of weak shit this ranks pretty highly. Now I mean certainly some big zik planets benefitted last round, which was a 10 week round but christ I'd have my doubts whoever approved the salvage change realised that made a difference, from salvage. And yes these were primarily ascendancy planets because for some reason a lot of other alliances seemed to find crashing awesome. So the response to about 10-15 planets gaining a lot of score off salvage was to cut salvage in half. Ignore the longer length of last round. Ignore the fact that if the government's response to finding a department was overfunded was halving their budget they'd be asked what planet they live on. Did nobody even look at what some of the resulting calcs would be like? http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...t6iel8lin8azib they end up looking a lot like that in case you didn't! |
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To me that looks how calcs should look, if the attacking ships get to fire then they're going to hurt the defence. Salvage was introduced to make it easier to rebuild after getting bashed. The purpose was to give planets the ability to recover & continue playing. It was never intended to be the easiest, best way to gain value. Quote:
Whatever happened to the good old days when calcs were ugly & you were praying that the guy wouldn't sleep in & crash? Cursing the moron who crashed on your defence, lost all his fleet & cost you score. That's how PA should be. Somewhere along the way it went from a small return on lost ships to a serious resource mine for any alliance that could consistently defend well. Hoping that every attacker on you lands, so that you can gain score? As far as I'm concerned that's incredibly broken. Quote:
Ascendancy won last round from salvage. Elviz won the round from salvage. It wasn't a few zik planets, It was a HUGE amount of salvage. The round went from reasonably close, to ascendancy running away with it. You weren't gaining score from attacking. Your opponents weren't losing massive amounts of roids. Attacks were crashing & every time one did, Ascendancy got a big jump in score/value. We spent a couple days working our asses off, organizing nonstop attacks on ascendancy. Ascendancy hardly attacked at all during those 2 days, they defended. We'd line up 10-12 fleets, find a target, set a calc, launch the wave. It would get covered, we'd issue a recall order & some moron would crash. When we started doing that, the round was very close, after 2 days of that, ascendancy had gained enough value from salvage alone to seriously widen the gap & everyone realized how pointless the effort was & gave up. It was insane. There's no way you'll ever convince me that the salvage formula wasn't seriously broken. The round went from being very close, to being out of reach in 2 days & you did it without attacking & with your closest opponent only crashing 1 of the MANY MANY fleets that crashed. You won a round by defending. How is that not broken? |
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that being said, I personally would love high salvage, and steals without loosing ships, but salvage was only made to give the defending side an advantage over the attacking side. Not to make it totally skewed. As it is, the defenders still get an advantage, but now you hope that the attackers dont oversleep cause you will loose some urself. BUT in a war situation, the attacker will still loose more. Init is once again so much more important.... |
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something I forgot to say. War is messy and bloody for all sides involved. Back in the days people attacked to get roids, and people defended to keep the roids. I think we will once again see more battles which will be fully covered vs lower tier alliances, to prevent massive losses if / when they crash.
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The thing is, it was incredibly hard to come up with an attacking calc where you could gain a large amount of score. A 600k score gain from an attacking calc when you launched, was a very good calc. Yet it was incredibly easy to come up with a huge score gain on a defense calc. Million point & even multi million point score gain defense calcs were pretty common. With the XP & salvage formulas the way they were, it was just seriously tilted towards defending being the easiest way to gain score. IMO that's just not the way PA should be. PA should be about attacking & the winner of the round should be determined by the alliance that does the best job of attacking its opponents. It shouldn't be a competition to see who can get the most morons to crash into def fleets. |
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This is less a discussion about game mechanics not being tested properly and more a discussion about how the game should be played.
At the moment if I have a big fleet and I storm into a planet and they get defence, then I know that at least I'll take some of them with me (and they'll receive significant losses). This is how it should be; the idea that they can rebuild within a few ticks while I've lost my entire fleet due to poor calculations is just a tad unfair. Now the idea that defence loses a SIGNIFICANT proportion of their fleet just because the attacking fleets have been so large and have blunderbussed their way through - that isn't right. I'd predict people launching gigantic fleets just to scare off any defence in future. It's what I'd be doing, anyway! In the earlier rounds, salvage was a small perk to help you rebuild. It wasn't a game mechanic designed for you to replace your ships wholly from those you lost. In summary - fix the salvage to a slightly higher value. Don't return to the salvage values of last round though. |
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For once I disagree with JBG when it's in a post about game mechanics.
As mentioned above in a couple of posts, salvage is designed to give you back some resources after a bashing, not to make spectacular valuegains on. Init matters alot more in this round :) |
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First of all, an alliance winning a round by defending is a good thing. I think the game has been way to attack oriented of late. However, I disagree with the salvage. It sure does add more to the game. You can now have suicide clowns with a "smallish" correctly built fleet inflicting other planets actual value loss. I think that PA can become Al-Quaida's next training ground.
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I hate the new salvage system, it means i need a Cath to defend me... otherwise i lose value no matter how much i pwn the attacking fleet.
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Changing the salvage just because some people were too stupid to pull and crashed is very retarded , but because asc were smart enough to benefit everyone else jumped on the bandwagon and whinged . As soon as more fleets start landing this round and defenders start losing value you can expect the "i told you so's " to appear
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Well, is this really a problem with the salvage system, or is it the fact that ships with low init now are TOO good now? I think its more the latter. Stats havent taken the change enough into consideration...
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It actually makes sense that there is casualities on both sides in a fight / war.
Wich we now have.... |
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I agree, being able to defend with no losses is crazy stuff (unless you outnumber massively, realistically.)
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The problem is, you shouldnt have to take losses if you've defended it properly and full-kill the attacker. Its that sort of thing that can ruin an actives round and will cause major problems for both top alliances and bottom alliances.
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tbh i cant see a problem here.
theres incoming theres defence when the attacking planet decides he/she wants to end his/her round by suiciding the whole fleet to that defence then its his/her own decision. theres a combat and logically both sides take a hit from it, just the defence gets a tad of salvage in return to rebuild its losses a little faster.. round is over for the attacker now and defence returns to their planets and carry on. I have to agree to some ppl above that the situation last round was very strange with all the salvage donations and value building from it. so imo this new system is ok and is made how it should b. |
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I can't see the logic behind profiting from being attacked.
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There are a couple of things people have overlooked. I'm not proposing returning instantly to last round's salvage, which if you actually read my post I clearly did agree was overpowered. However halving it is a colossal overreaction. Please try and consider this in real terms, what on earth would you actually halve if you considered it to be too much? And yeah sure try and avoid the massive value gain calcs but calcs where someone loses 25% of his defending fleet value because the other guy's an idiot isn't exactly something liable to appeal to much of the current playerbase.
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I can only see this be a problem for the most skilled players of planetarion, where ofc Ascendancy springs to my mind at once. For avg. joe in planetarion, this change is pretty insignificant. |
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From what i see, its a case of:
Every time you're attacked (and they land), you lose value.. Making the thought of pnap'ing and avoiding war, a more favourable choice when aiming to finish high. Which is very bad in my view, considering i hate pnaps and fencesitting :( |
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why shouldnt they defend ? |
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Edit: I don't think it'll go that far and bear in mind it probably seems like I'm overstating the case somewhat, you always get reductioed out there in cases like this. In all likelihood you'll probably know 2/3 people max who'll get spectacularly dicked by salvage this round and I doubt it's the sort of thing which is likely to change the outcome of the game that much, if at all. It's the tendencies it encourages that I'm not happy about. I believe the best sort of teamwork in PA is built on defence but I'm perfectly willing to adjust. Take it from someone who once won a round without defending once though. It's a much more interesting game the other way! |
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We didn't get involved in it until the 2nd night. So I am referring to the 2nd & 3rd days/nights after ND started hitting you. When we started up the joint channels & started launching attacks non-stop. DLR members setup the large majority of those waves & we paid attention to them. We went to great lengths to try to get all the attackers pulled once a recall was ordered. During those 2 days/nights BaasB was the only ND member to crash a fleet that was launched from the joint rooms at least. While multiple fleets from the assorted other alliances involved in those attacks crashed. It is ofc quite possible that some ND members had fleets die at home, but the score change on those would be quite small compared to the crashers, because ofc the dead fleets would generate salvage for ND & the score gained by Asc. attacking ND would be quite limited comparatively speaking. In those 2 days ascendancy was under constant attack & doing a great job of defending & they managed to increase the lead they had on ND by something like 30million score. We watched it happen time after time, a wave would reach the landing ETA, 1or more fleets would crash & Ascendancys score would jump. Sometimes by as much as 5 million score. The round lasted another week after that, but those 2 days & the millions of score in salvage gained by ascendancy was really the end of the round. |
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BaasB is my hero!
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Trust me on this grog, I have most of last round engraved into parts of my brain, you're a good bit off on how it went down. Our actual score gain on ND was about 70% of what it appeared (remember that's overall score gain coming from like 12 mil behind to 16/17 ahead). Of that scoregain I'd say 80% was due to ND crashing and 20% was due to people crashing on us. |
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i agree mostly with what Grog said in his first post, apart from the salvage win of Asc, simply cause i dont have the numbers/stats to argue bout that.
but the overall impression to me was, that asc gained from salvage, more then anyone else however, what i want to say, that now we are back to an attack dominated game, and finally ppl will be able to take down big guys, cause they will run instead of loosing value in defence, this will encourage xp runs, and the plain value play might not decide the winner in the end anymore. i am only afraid that hiding loads of value will be even more a good way to win the round (go eksero, this time you sure can win it!) so for me why changing value sucked, is cause the production rule wasnt changed like mentioned and introduced in havoc r30 cause now, to protect your value and gain loads of xp, you will stay small and hit biggies hoping they cant defend good enough and run instead. itīs sad but itīs true PA once again failed |
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The whole attacking play, is now based on your attacker running, if he doesnt.. both the attacker and defender are screwed. |
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Isn't that how it used to be?
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defence won't be handled by: If we gain score it's covered, it'll be if the attacker looses more then we do it'll be covered. (your enemy will be weakened more then you are). about last round i must agree with Grog. Salvage was too important last round. If someone crashes on you, that should hurt you. It will be a different way to play the game, but that doesn't mean it has to be bad. (It used to be like this before paX, in that other game, ...). Defending is harder, so people will go out attacking. This will only lead to a real difference in Ascendancy I think, cause last round they were the only ones that actually managed to put up some nice defence and play the defending game. And yes salvage did make a lot of difference for you last round, no point in minimizing that. |
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I wasn't minimising it, I pointed out that grog was wrong. I actually started my point by saying that it was hugely important in two other conflicts we were involved in! |
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launching an attack where your screwed if your defender stays, even if hes loosing much too is pretty stupid anyhow. and for normal attacks (you calc that the losses are worth it) : if there is defence its a recall most likely, as it always was, just with the change that crashing isnt rewarding for the defender(s) anymore. why should it be? and no where its said that the winner of planetarion has not to loose any value to accomplish the win. |
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however that doesnt say, that there isnt someone doing it, and i bet that one will finish with a very good rank. |
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Pure beetle caths will do okay xp whoring. You can roid terrans/xans/ziks with that 1 ship regardless of what they build. And some of them will do okay but not that many as the xp formula is still pretty cack. My point is you don't want to encourage that type of play. It's pretty mindless. In fact it's probably more mindless than how I played xp, at least I had to scan for ziks who didn't have stolen anti-de/bs.
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or you get enough (emp) defence to lower your losses to a minimum. defending is harder, specially if you cant rely on low init ships (emp/killing) but maybe that will end the boring launch recall shit on some "flagged" planets and therefor make the race for #1 a bit more interesting i understand your point though, but i dont agree if a moron crashes on you and you decide to face it its your decission, your not forced to face him at no point however maybe your right that this is bad for the game. i cant predict that 100% neither can anyone else we got another 6 weeks to find out its too early to ask for its removal next round though |
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Using xans as examples is hardly valid tho, as you needed quite alot emp last round to actually make xans def gain back what it lost.
Xan last round was suicide def, which it seems to be this round aswell (mostly). 80% or more of the calcs i saw with a xan defender with a decent value last round, the xan lost out (while the other defenders gained). |
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Yeah. I was okay with that. Small losses in your average sort of def is fine, can't win them all. However losing 25% of your defending fleet value while you wipe the attacker out to the last ship is horrific. I mean, do people want me to start exploiting this? Because I will get people to sign up accounts and build ships designed purely to suicide on planets and cost them value if that's what it takes to demonstrate how ludicrous this can get.
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hey jbg thought you knowed by now that the pa team cant do balanced changes :) it have always been -50% or +100% and a woups, "that went crappy we change it for next round"
it all come from the fact that noone in the team have played a round for years and somehow have lost the idea why ppl actually bother to signup to the shitty game. |
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after my first night of incs, I can honestly say that covering incs this round is alot harder! :p
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Re: Why changing salvage sucked ass and please change it back next round
What about making salvage more score dependant? Somewhere along th elines of;
Top 10 planet gets "r31 salvage" #500< planet gets "r30 salvage" and of course a nice formula for everything in between. And to prevent someone pulling an eksero; letting prod (partly) count towards value should be implemented. :p |
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Do small planets still get up to 50% more salvage than top20 planets?
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I'll agree with JBG,
Grog.. that was good old pa with long rounds where you recover from hit's.. in this pa even 100k value is something, especially in 7 week rounds.. 100k = 5-10 ranks minimium even in top50 as there's HCT limit, out roiding doesn't work unless you can use the roids. |
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http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...5c1txq4s3zhyeh
Its called emp def. With 5 tick def, 50% of the uni cat+xan, that calc is more than reasonable. Or if u dont like EMP def, try this one http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...l2bnfx8twedabc or this one http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...kn2cd58w7r4z9x or this one http://round31.planetarion.com/bcalc...lcuigcas5nn8jk I think you get the point. Dont hate the salvage formula, hate the guy who cant DC. |
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