Putting things in perspective...
 

Please correct me where I'm wrong:

At some point in the beginning, the Universe as we know it didn't exist. Time, space, and movement all seem to be intertwined and are characteristics of our Universe and so it makes no sense to ask questions such as:

'What was there before the Universe?' - as anything that would be something would be part of the Universe and could not exist without it, but only within it. Also, as time, and causality may be (are?) exclusive traits of the Universe, perhaps even saying 'before' is an error.

'What is there outside of the Universe?' - as everything is inside the Universe, and being 'something' is being of the Universe.

Perhaps even asking 'What began or 'created' the Universe?' is a nonsensical question if causality only applies to everything within the Universe.

Whatever. Moving on.

So now you have this ordered Universe that has various movement and force, energy, a process of entropy (with exceptions), elements, mass, gravity. Structure is created - gas clouds, galaxies, solar systems, whatever - heavy elements are produced, objects form (planets, planetoids, etc), chemical processes begin, biological processes follow.

And now you have this thing that is life. It's just a continuation of a process, a consequence of causality, it's significance to the system in general seems to be close to none (for the moment at least - perhaps there is a potential there).

Biology begins with replication, production of offspring, mutation, death, adaptation to environmental resources that facilitate reproduction. The biological system becomes more complex as competition for resources stiffens and as biology beings to change the environment itself. There is mutation, various traits end up proving sufficient for overcoming the competition and then here we come to the point of it all: consciousness. Metaphysics right?

So here then is s|k, talking in third person. s|k thinks that the odds of him being here are quite slim if you think all of things that might have happened that could have led to him not being here (various events in the life of his parents (or of their parents, or their parents parents, etc) that may have led to them never meeting, or if one of the other millions of different sperms had mated with the egg instead of the one that did (or of the sperms that led to his ancestors' conception). But this is all nonsense because if s|k wasn't here, somebody else would be, and more importantly: s|k is here so this entire paragraph was just a waste of time.

Moving on. So now there is s|k, experiencing consciousness - an insignificant consequence of causality - thinking it's not insignificant at all, because consciousness is everything he is. The Universe does not even exist at all, nor does s|k, without s|k, for s|k. Therefore, how could he be insignificant - at least to himself?

Now s|k knows that consciousness and he himself, will only be around for a limited amount of time. Human life, the pedestal of consciousness as experienced by s|k, seems to be quite ephemeral, as he himself has witnessed other human life ending quite unpredictably and intermittently around him. s|k is old enough to have stopped existing several times already if what happened to the lives around him had happened to him instead. And he would have stopped existing, without ever making sense out of any of it.

It's a question of significance, and significance is really something created by us. There is no inherent significance within anything. But using the rational means to measure 'significance' in the context of the seemingly massive and eternal Universe, my life, by any reasonable estimation, seems incredibly insignificant. But to ME it is not insignificant at all. To ME it is everything. **** I just can't make any sense of it.

How could I be nothing, when I am everything.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

I may be dilusional from not eating or sleeping the last day and a bit, but what the ****.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

nice rant.
Is there a question in all that?

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

Are time and causality part of the nature of the universe, or do they exist outside of the universe too?

Humans feel the importance of their own selves precisely because they're so insignificant. It's almost a survival trait, that had to happen after becoming self aware.

Also, talking about the chances that you'd exist, that the human race made it this far, and so on ... we're here. I know that examining how we came to be and develop might give some answers, but (amusingly enough considering I'm taking maths) I don't like much more than basic stats, and I think chance is a fickle bitch in anything more complicated than very simple stats work. I can't justify that, it's just an irritational feeling really.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

you sure do like questioning your existence dude

we've all had these little "worries" and been a bit overwhelmed about the whole infinite thing (our minds can't comprehend infinity). thinking about it will just make your brain hurt though - there's nothing you can do about it, so just let it be.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

I read up until your first error. Then I stopped. Nice thread though :)

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

It's like a shitty version of inverse-nihilism.

Oh, and the chance of something that already has happened already happening is 1. The chance of me guessing the precise football scores each weekend, along with the times, scorer and number of shots on goal is astronomically low, but the chance of their BEING precise football scores after the weekend, along with the times, scorer and number of shots on goal is astronomically high.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

thank


god.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

I am the apex of my existence, as without me nothing can exist for me. Yet since everything is meaningless, everything is nothing and so being the apex has lost any appeal. Plus, I have a signficant lack of control of my experience.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

Yes, this facinates me.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

two little cuts and we'll all be happier.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

OK, I read a reasonable amount of your post. In future you may think of structuring your paragraphs a bit better. But there is one thing I really must ask: Have you gone mental?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm happy you're happy posting all this. But a deep psychoanalysis of the root of your ponderings may make quite a good thread. I'm not even sure posting these kinds of threads here will be all that useful. You'll just get the standard you're-wrong-****-you response.

But anyway. As far as the start of the universe goes, I've just had a thought, just this minute. It all stems from my recent obsession with reality being just your sense's realisations of matter. Maybe our senses are too limited to understand the start of the universe. We seem to be limited with the concepts of physical reality, time, space, distance, etc.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

I feel the same way as you s|k.

I've alwayed been interested in Man's quest to learn about the universe. People often say that it is so amazing that we are here, because of all that might have happened differently in the run up to our creation.

But then of course, if something did happen, we wouldn't be around to discuss that anyway.

Surely the only discussion that can ever be had about the universe is that it is so amazing that we are here, because if we weren't, the discussion would never have happened.

In fact, what if we are crap compared to what potentially could have been. Maybe the Universe could have been far better and beings that could have been far better could be discussing how lucky they are. Well they don't exist do they, so that discussion can never be had. I dunno.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

s|k, just down 4 shots of tequila and a couple of Coronas, and all of this will start making sense.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

Isn't this when people start believing in God? You gonna turn religious on us, s|k?

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

or do drugs.. neither are particularly good outcomes.


although some people make quite a good living spouting this kind of crap then turning it into papers and thesis. maybe he's not so crazy afterall :)

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

Weak Anthropic Principle

Q: Why does the universe exist?
A: Well, what else would you expect to observe?


Strong Anthropic Principle

Q: Why does the universe support life?
A: Right, so you'd be dead then?

Significantly enough significance is subjective, as you quite rightly point out. However then you go on and become confused about why the significance of something changes from two different perspectives. Why?

This is some sort of inane zen quackery. You are neither nothing nor everything. You are you, you are the sum total of your experiences with a quirk of individuality, a dash of emotion and a dollop of intelligence. Funnily enough the universe exists for me to make jokes about silversmoke being homosexual on the internet. It's called the strongdutchfaggot* anthropic principle.






*This is like some form of super-quadruple-entendre

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

You two are seriously lowering the intellectual tone of GD with these posts by the way. A state of affected disinterest is best you see. Take up rhyming in all of your posts or RP more or excessively use smilies but for the love of god STOP THE HORRIBLE ANGST. That is all.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

Whatever you were smoking, can I have some?

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I wouldn't worry about his difficult time. Judging by that initial post I doubt he believes in time anymore. Not that that will do him any good but it's sure as hell amusing me.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

Look s|k.

Just make a livejournal account.

You'll find lots of lovely confused people just like yourself.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

Sort of. Even if you wanted to argue for the strongest form of determinism possible, It's still sensible to talk about how unlikely something was to happen after it occurred as long as you're using a 'sensible' (Bayesian) interpretation of what probabilistic statements actually mean. But when most people muse about the radical contingency of their existence, they arent generally implying determinism is false or committing themselves to the claim that things (literally, logically) 'could' have been different - its more a general sense of wonder about the myriad of factors which had to happen in order for them to exist, accompanied perhaps by the vague feeling of helplessness which sometimes comes with the realisation that a lot of your life seems to be outwith your control. There's no contradiction between me marvelling at the sheer coincidence of something that happened to me ("just think what would have happened if I left the house 10 minutes earlier!"), and my not believing that things could (literally) have occurred differently.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

I almost certainly came on a bit stronger than was required, but when I'm used to having that kind of discussion with Creationists who use the staggeringly unlikely nature of any specific mutation as an attempt to say that Evolution is incorrect, I think it's understandable.

Coincidentally, I had an E&B pr... well, it's technically a "practical" or a "lab session" but that amounted to looking at a few moths and deciding what they do to stop being eaten, and picking holes in Kettlewell's studies of peppered moths (it's most of the way down).

For example - those pictures on the right. They're in black and white, not showing up the colour differences, and the moths in those pictures are actually dead - the moths don't actually sit on the bark.

That isn't to say Industrial Melanism is invalid, just that Kettlewell got it utterly wrong.

Re: Putting things in perspective...
 

s|k---read Cats Cradle by Kurt Vonegut. I think you'd like it.