Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=475164006770

*** All ships of the 1st set is done -- Beta is running

*** If you see any questioning eff/res/what ever, please tell me so i can see if i overlooked something or calced wrong.

*** Please comment on balance, and suggestions HOW to balane something wich seems to be too good.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

My suggestion 1st of all is to Code in the calculator for A/C and D/C so it makes balancing a bit easier.

(k2+L3+m4)*10000)/(h4) = D/C for ship one.

And I already see a problem. Giving Terran 2 pods while giving Xan 3 pods will just end up being another round like this one. Xan do not need anymore faking opertunities than they already have.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

One of the point being Xan is having options to fake.
Guess you will just have to make Amplifers to scan those pesky xans next round then.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

etd needs a bs steal option, and while at it - scrap one of the etd roiding FR/DE fleets, the FR one looks in particular useless.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

I like how you have given EMP a steal ship. To be honest i think its a great idea and mixes it up a little.

Another thought would be why not have a full ETD round? I.e. 5 different versions of mixes of ships? I.e. xan would be mostly cloak with some emp or steal. Cat would have some steal. Ter would be mostly high armour with some cloak etc etc.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

ETD is suppose to look useless for FR.
Allthough it dosnt got much soloing options, its still a very vital race for a FR stratetgy alliance

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Sounds good to me, but I think the last time this was suggested people threw a fit. :(

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

I would LOVE a "full etd round", and I think it's much easier to make a balanced set of stats for such a round too.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Agreed. Much of the problems with balancing stats nowadays is the whole "race X always fires before race Y" thing, as opposed to "each race has some ships that fires before most other ships".

Anyway, this is really more of a generic comment and has nothing to do with Butcher's stats.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Do it then. You guys make the stats. Sod the people that moan, will be nice to have a bit of a mix up.

Let's be shepherds not sheep xD

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

I'm not sure what to do with these stats. CO targeting needs to change badly.

I think I like Xan FR, Etd and Zik CO seems to be their best counter due to t2 on the Tzen, perhaps with Etd DE because its really the only reason I'd build a few Bombers (in attack) right now. If there's not a lot of Marauders around Xan FR is almost a 3-ship build (Pulsar, Tzen, Fireblade with some Bombers)

I mean, Vipers will always be decent in def but also an attack ship whilst Ter BS looks like the main race Xan can't hit. Pulsars look good tho.

I also like Etd DE because of the targeting, they look like they could be very hard to stop except by maybe again Xan FI and ingal cr/bs.

Will look more later. (Cat) co looks more lethal than usual, also 3-ship build. Targeting is in their favour too. Would probably end up going Cat co again.

Cat/Etd CO is targeted on t1 by: Ter FI (beetle t1), Xan FI (beetle t1) Etd DE (viper t2)

On top of that Beetle and Defender are both emp and same init... they will destroy fi def fleets. (with emp :P) I can't see co being defended at all with these stats.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

I agree, mix the stats, give every race a bit of everything, and make races dominant in classes instead.

Xan for example could be FI/FR only
cath CO/CR only
ETD FI/BS only

tbh, I'm not a fan of four races being able to team up in the same class, it makes defence useless, and attacks more prone to huge teamups

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Yes i agree with Killah. Big teamups do suck.

p.s. plz don't OP cath to much again.

Every round emp is to strong, can we play a round where emp is similar to other races. When has Cat planets not pwned the rnd and boss the t50?

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Mix the stats and change steal ships back to not dying for a round.

Its less over powered if every race has access to it!

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Moaning about the CO fleets being unstoppable?
Did you look at the Dagger?
Imho Cat CO will have a hard time stopping DE alone atm.
If you wanted to change the targetting, what would you change?

I think honestly that sometimes when people dont know what to do with the stats, they are pretty good :D

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Um the dagger targets co?

Zik needs normal ships in attack fleets for viability.

Every alliance capable of defending would go DE/FR forts in these stats. With DE being slightly stronger simply because of the lack of T1 DE targetting as a whole

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Moaning? Tell me if you want me to blindly tell you stats are great or are actually looking for feedback.

Dagger? It targets FR. Zik doesn't even have a CO t1 atm. Tell me how you would defend in ally vs an ally with co strat with these stats then.

Yeah, Cat co isn't great vs DE - it's not good vs CO either. But nothing seems good vs co either atm except the Pegasus.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Its suppose to be good for attacking, thats what im aiming for.
How you intend to stop a CR or BS fleet from roiding you for free if your CO?
I know i havnt added the cost yet on all the ships, but just look at the init of the mantis and the avenger so far

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

That would just make life easier for the abusers/ship-farmers/bottom-feeders/n00b-bashers - they're still out there. ;)

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

I thought we were getting away from needing big teams. The idea is that every race and every class would be able to exist on its own and not need a team up to be able to function. By you saying this just tells me that you have no knowledge or care for what stats need to be.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Hmm, what are you aiming at, i fail to see where there is one class of any of the races that CANNOT land anything reasonable?

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

he's aiming at the fact that leaving too many teamup options will dominate the fleet compostion for said round.

keep team-up options to two races only thank you

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

What are you all chatting about stopping big teams??

Big teams is from people not stats. Best way for stats to combat big teams is too embrace them. If you force teamups then they become less effective.

Butcher your stats look 'ok' Pegasus is a terrain ship tho please change it

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

And it's CLOAK not CLOACK

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

All the ETD ships is from xan, ter, zik or cath, id rather have em stay in the orignal class than as wrong class in the original race.
Pegasus is originaly a "fast destroyer"

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Everyone feel free to PM me on IRC if you want to discuss the stats in a larger extent with me

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

I don't like ter bs. 3 ships to target 3 ships and then having to build fr for rest which weakens your fr significantly by not building drakes. Couldnt dragon and wyvern be combined? It seems like the only class besides xan fi where you have to build 5 ships to target everything....

I dunno, just a first glance.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Yeah, ive changed it now.
2 BS ships. Though i might take a 2nd look at the EMP res on the ter BS later.
Added a Terran CO that fires FI and DE, the Torpedo

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

I was just looking at the beta stats analysis for the first time and WOW Avenger (an emp etd bs) has cost efficiency of 300% or more against all DE except the clipper! (1240% against the shadow.. LOL!) I know your stats favour fr/de forts but I am not sure this is the best way to change that.

Edit: there are two more ships that seem op in the same way. Smuggler (etd co) does around 200% steal damage on most fr (that would be an awesome defship) and the Clipper (zik de) is the same against bs with the exception of against the ALMIGHTY Avenger.

Unless there is a good reason for it I would tone these down a bit.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

The eff/res on ETD aint done yet.
Thats the reason.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

in which case just pointing it out for when you do!:p

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

The eff/res is done for all the other races i think, and ETD is just, to me, a imitation of the other races, so its basicly finished

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Can we get a realistic set up and going? Harsh or not, the current set looks far from finished and balanced.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Why does it have to be balanced? Blanaced = boring. I wanna see unbalanced stats. Bitcher has made lots of comments on stats over the round and has his own ideas how he would like a set to be. Let him go with it and hand them into Appoco, if they are not what Appoco wants then Appoco will change them.

I genuinely dislike your 'i was just in the muthfuppin' EORC' arrogant attitude, go be a prick somewhere else.

Bitcher your stat looks weird, but hopefully it will play well :)

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

so what if you don't like that im arrogant? Who are you? You really think your comments or oppinions matter to me?

And why i said this shit is unbalanced is that MOST players will follow same strat and same races... AGAIN <-- AND THAT IS WHATS BORING!

Forcing strat options to the universe because the stats have to many useless options is retarded.

I must add... what does hoping have to do with anything relevant about the set? "they look weird, so hopefully it will play well"

Stop being a troll, and actually try to be useful with your inputs.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Yes cos 'scrap it and get a proper set' was super constructive......

What actually happens in PA is that someone TRIES to balance a set of stats and then 10 people decide what 500 are going to do and we end up with a universe that is skewed. It happens EVERY round.

Wether it ends up boring or not really depends on the politics not the stats. What happens with the stats is repetitive.

So i think Bitchers approach is a breath of fresh air to be frank, he isnt even trying to 'balance' things. HE is doing what HE wants to do with the stats and is ignoring all the 'LETS BALANCE IT' crap taht is spewed every round.

Bitcher i dont like you as a player but keep making your crazy set and maybe you will start a trend. The more DIVERSE the stats are the better it is for PA. Just because something is OP doesnt mean everybody will play it. Ter/ETD BS was beyond OP last round but i dont remember even seeing a BS attack fleet. People went with what they were told by this small group of people who decide what the mjority do. If you want balance then stop people doing that and then we might be onto a winner.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

ignoring everyone isn't a great choice in itself though.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

I didnt say he was. I said he was ignoring all the crap about balancing.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

balanced stats are what we want, not ones where only two races get picked. and as for last round because the anti fi/co of ter and etd was pretty poor which is why not many people picked it when a whole alliance went xan.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

I havnt ignored everyone.
Actualy ive listened to too many allready imho ;)

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Its far from finished indeed, havnt claimed it diffrent

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Oh i try balance a lot.
But each race will be good at its own strenghts, not balancing everyone towards everything

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

You're confusing "balance" with homogeneity. Balance is good. All races feeling and playing the same is not.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

I don't really care for the 3 (4) pod classes setup; there's just too many ships in general.

The Torpedo seems to have been thrown in there for...what exactly? War Cruiser is totally redundant other than flak for the SK...

Not sure why the Guardian steals CR...or for that matter, what CR exactly is it meant to be stealing? Too much of a niche ship.

Dagger is meant to...die in fire?

Xan look pretty good, maybe too good. ETD having 4 pods, and their layout in general, seems pretty messy. Maybe in a good way, I'm not sure yet.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Im not realy done with the WC.
The torpedo was put in as a ally def against FI.
Dagger is good if you run a few calcs on it vs cath CO/DE.
Not realy sure what to do with xan, as it cannot land if there is BS forts.
I dunno how you can defend urself against FI without etd in FR/BS strats. its suppose to look messy

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Will have another look, gotta run some errands first.

Thanks for the reply.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

The ship that strikes me as useless is none of the ones you mentioned but the shadow, it's weak, and yet very expensive (more than twice the cost of the xan bs class ships). Why would anyone build it rather than the fireblade that has other fr to flack for it?
edit: I see at the top it says shadow is not finished yet so sorry if I jumped the gun.

And why add a third xan pod? That just took away the main thing I liked about this stats set! :(

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Agreed, keep it at two max (i wouldnt mind one even), if you ask me, we just had a round with 3 pod each race. As much as it adds attack options across all races, and to an extend easy lands due to more teamp-ups being done, it also adds too much difference between races, ziks just dont profit from 3 pods as a xan do. Giving emp options to all attack eta's is just too much. Especially when all late etas fire first.

I tire of 50% hug rounds and dist whores, when speaking about balance, factor in that giving cath and xan (and etd) 3 or more pods, to an extend upsets race balance to a point where we again will see a cat/xan uni.

Also while your at it bb, remove all the off pod class ships that noone will build cause they're good for nothing.

I already talked with you about it,on irc, I just felt an urge to add it again as i see im not the only having qualms about a zillion pods in uni

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

Having more pods accros the races give you more strategic options.
I told you what the biggest problem is with "a lot" of options for alliances, and that is two alliances agreeing preround to best buds, doing joint strats and having NAPs with each other.
EMP will always be EMP, in the end you will never kill anything with it, so it more or less excludes FCs if your too emp dependent.
And so far nobody has been realy effective playing dist whoring, and so far in all the ship strat discussion i havnt heard anyone beside myself optioning dist whoring as something doable.

Re: Round 58 BB stats discussion
 

What's everyones view on the lack of co pods for Zik? Personally, I dont like it, but I think everything else looks quite positive.