Round 34 Stats
 

Baseline stats:

http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats

All changes will be listed against this.

Cath EMP damage is probably a bit too low (though that's problematic around Xan Fi)
There's a lot of crowding around Fr/De, and Pegasus and Rogue are pretty similar.
Also, steal ships could have a bit of variety in the inits.

I think Terran is probably at the lower end, and Xan at the higher end of the 'best' races.

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Isn't adjusting the cost of Xan Fi a simple solution to their 'high' EMP resistance?

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already done that once; will have to again I think.
Xan Fi is generally pretty strong anyway, even with the Peg/ Rogue / Scorpion PDS.

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Well it's either making Xan Fi more expensive, OR making all other fi/co more expensive with the corresponding ERes increases and giving EMP more guns.

And yes, Xan Fi/Co is atm too strong in my opinion.

I was thinking, maybe remove the t3 from Banshee and make the Pegasus shoot Co only at init 4?

At the moment the only thing that can stop masses of Xan fi/co is Beetle+Thief/Pillager.

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Cath roaches needs a huge boost, cath CR is unplayable without alot higher effectivity... especially considering the planets with FR/DE will mostly be FR/DE fortresses.

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The problem with this lies in the Viper and Roach (as well as Widow/Tara) having opposite targeting.

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is it only me, or is the xan fi/co +ct option fking awesome?

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Well, you could for instance read the rest of the thread. Then you would see that it is not only you.

Just a thought.

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Cath co is too strong.

And if you disagree, Etd needs something larger than a FI that kills CO.

Edit: Suggestion: Add CO as t2 to Broadswords, and move DE to t3, or remove DE targeting alltogether?

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Personally I liked the ZIK BS I saw earlier in the stats that targeted FI/CO.

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Xan win again.

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I'm just surprised to see a set released when the author himself says there are many problems with it... We all know having the community correcting a faulty set will just lead to a bad one.
What I'd like to read is the reasonning behind the choices, because atm it looks like changes were thrown in for the sake of it.
I don't want to make it personnal but with JBG stats you have a sense of direction at least and the feeling that only minor tweaks will be needed to make them great to play.

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Well no matter how you put it a cath would never go 2 fleets, ie. vips and roaches, so targeting is not the problem. And over the past rounds it has been clear that if cath should have anything to say about planetranks throughout the round, they need effectivity of ATLEAST 130%

Last round was around 150% T1 and 130% T2 and still they took a beating in the end.

With these stats roach effectivity so far is approx 110% t1 and 60-90% t2... no cath will ever survive that.

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remove the revenant, to give xan a weakness against DE

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From the stats Ter a bit weak, the easiest way to fix that is to lower there costs, and whats the point of the pegasus? It really dont have much difference in targeting/ init xan shoot them 1st.

Cat Co has to have ~~ 130 eff and 100 for the T2. That should be the emp standards. Emping at 160 was retarded.

Zik could use some init changes just to make it so that zik vs zik isnt stupid.

Havent had the time to test out etd or play with them yet so i'll reserve judgement till later.

I think these stats have a good starting block but need some work Like appoco said. I would like to see xan a bit weaker seeing how last round they DOMIATED. Xan already has an advantage over the other races.

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If you remove the revenant without compensating in some other way xan fr becomes pretty awesome defensively.

(I can't actually see the efficiencies page, does that exist anymore?)

The a/c on cath co looks criminally low. Roach/viper and widow/tula flipped targeting will make things awkward. Zik efficiencies are still pretty low. I don't like the widow firing before the tula, emp usually gets ****ed enough by midround.

The useless ships list is pretty long. Harpy is dreadful. I have no idea what the syren is supposed to do. Peacekeeper is a miles worse ship than the spirit, cr/bs as opposed to fr/de from the tech and eta perspective, no flak, no de targeting, barely better efficiencies. The spectre looks like you left it in from an earlier iteration and is only of any use versus etd de fleets which you're okay against anyways. All the etd anti-fi/co ships suck, terrible init on the avenger, pillager doesn't touch co, predator only emps and is de class. The broadsword is more of a hindrance than a help.

Overall I think cr/bs is too weak and xan seem to have the two most viable fleets, pure fr and fi/co. Cath look too weak, terran need better efficiencies, as do zik. Or xan needs substantial nerfing. Etd just looks confused, but then again I guess it always does!

Overall I like the direction although I think you need to get rid of the dead weight ships.

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To nerf xan a little: Make Phantom init 6 and reduce the damage of Revenant. Make Spirit and Spectre single targetting ships, Spirit targetting cr and Spectre targetting bs.

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http://beta.planetarion.com/statsanalysis.pl

it's missing on stats page, but it still exists.

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I suggest you stop posting.

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I don't think Xan dominated last round. It was the best race, sure, closely followed by Etd. But I expected it to be much much worse than it turned out to be.

Though I guess that also has to do with Xan being its own nemesis (peacekeeper for cr, ghost for fi/co).


So far I think we'll see either mass Xans OR a lot of fr/de fortress planets, neither of which I'm not fond of.

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It also had to do with most of the xans fighting each other for 50% of the round.

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And then spend the other 50% in fortress gals that didn't get hit very often? :p

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My experience with Ziks:
-Cat vs. Zik: Attacking Co-fleet is really hard to stop with rogues.
CR vs. CR I would even say that Ziks have the upper hand.
But as with Xan, Cat will get a headstart, so they will have more ships...

-Xan vs. Zik: Xan are just too fast in beginning to do anything about. They will roid Zik. Would be nice to have some way of defending against them, since it's bad enough not knowing what's coming your way. This will result the Xan having too many ships to fight against. Magnified by the lack of fi/co pods. So the 1vs1 stats/calcs don't really translate to real game.

-Zik anti fi/co (rogues) only really works against Terrans, since other races gets to shoot them 1st. Etd shoots the same time, but I have no experience what happens in that case.

-When trying out Zik de-class, it would seem that they are too underpowered to challenge any fleet.

-Trying to steal with fi/co-class ships is REALLY hard. You need to build up a large amount to do so.

-Only successes I've had, have been with the cr-class. But that said, I'm still worried there's nothing to do against fi/co incs.

It seems that there is some balance wars between xan and cath, while other races go unnoticed :) The thing that amuses me most, that Zik, who are the stealer race, loses in stealing to Etd. Of course these are just my oppinions, I will not speak for all Zik and claim to be 100% right.

p.s. I kind of like the anti fi/co battleship idea :)

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Are you insane? 130 t1 and 100 t2? Have you even put any thought into this? and what about racial differences? shouldnt ter/zik have more emp ress than xan/etd (cloaked)?

Furthermore, you can take a good look at r33 stats. Cath had 150-130 t1-t2 effeciencies. They had TONS of primary targets (Xans with supposedly low emp ress) and still they didnt dominate the round. Cath was not a bad race at all, but compared to the amount of good targets they had they should have done better if the stats had been fair for cath. And now we're talking about a huge nerf, down to 130 and 100? How the hell is any cath gonna do anything good in a round like that?

After playing a round of beta with ter i must say they are not as bad as everyone say they are. They can roid the targets they are supposed to fairly well (cath, zik). I would however suggest an init change.

As the stats are now xan FR is pretty much useless, their init gets beating by ter FR, xan FI, ETD BS. This is not too bad, but compared to the FI fleet that has no weakness other than other xan FI whats the point of going FR?

I'd suggest a change in init of the drake (or the shadow) so that Xan FR is able to roid ter. And then an init change in the cent/revenant so FI isnt anymore... Xan's will have alot more options as to what attack fleet they want to go, instead of having 1 fleet thats pretty pointless. FI can roid cath, etd, zik and FR can roid cath, ter, zik

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zik defienetly needs a huge boost, they have no chance against any of the races when attacking really, and barely any when defending. Last round zik did have a few init advantages here and there (rogue vs fireblade, pirate vs buc, clipper vs. everything). They were barely playable, and that with a bit more ac/dc in r33 than they have now... i dont see how anyone can play them effectively this round.

a few suggestions: more ac/dc for all stealships. Marauder init 19, will make it possible to hit etd with CR. rogue init 19 and stealship (will make it a little harder for xan to land as the salvage from stealing with the leftover ships is larger than the salvage from killing with leftover ships), switch brigand to BS/CR instead of CR/BS (zik should have high enough emp res to break cath emp fairly easy, and therefore can afford to target their CR t2, while if they should have any chance vs. etd BS, they need to target them t1 after tycoons are done shooting.

Just a few ideas to make em playable... and i agree with those saying theres alot of useless ships around, but then again, as the round progresses people tend to find use for them in a way not foreseen preround. but there are some ships that wont ever get build (harpy and peg fx)

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Yeah. I even have to take my earlier OK about cr away. Just got totally owned by etd BS :) I've always played Zik and it bumms me that they are always at disadvantage. Only way to success is stealing some fleets in early game. For that you need to be lucky or have a good alliance. Neither has nothing to do with my personal contribution of a good player.

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I agree! Zik is too hard to play in the last few rounds, i did pretty ok untill a certain point last round. But the only way to play zik these days is to roid noobs for their fleet. I dont think stat-creaters should EXPECT zik to steal a lot of ships, since its very hard to do so...
On defence: people usually recall their attack...
On attack: people run their fleet...
Now even on noobs: they have "run like the french" on...

So in my opinion, the zik base-fleet shouldn't be too weak, but not too strong either...

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I agree with the last few people talking about Zik being underpowered lately. Personally, I don't have enough fun playing the other races to play as one of them. The stealing is what makes it fun. Slowly but surely Ziks keep getting worse though. The new "run like the french" option makes it extremely tough and time consuming to even steal from inactives and noobs. I also have to agree that Etd should never have an advantage in stealing over Ziks in any respect. They are a "jack of all trades" race, and should do everything less well than the race that does JUSt that. So, emp should be worse than cat, cloak should be worse than xan (worse init or ac/dc or whatever), and stealing should be worse than zik (worse init and imho single targetting). The benefit should be that their ships should work well together, not be strong individually.

Anyhow, that's my rant =)

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bcalc id=x1ih2a3vsbqerd7

Wat?

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Not sure if that means the bcalc code is messed up or the combat code is messed up. I suspect the bcalc code uses the same combat code logic, but I wouldn't know. Either way that's very strange. The pillager don't do anything to the beetle despite there being a number left un-EMPed that should be firing.

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Cath is still not strong enough to make it in a round...

cath CR is impossible to play... the poor effectivity of roach t2. You can go a mix of scorp/roach, but the poor effecitivity of them both t1 (if you have to split value between them) makes it extremely difficult aswell... 90-110% t1 for scorps and 110-120 t1 roach is horrible... with the amount of FR/DE expected in r34, anyone going cath CR with these stats wont make it top100.

The t1 stats for roach against zik/etd DE is fair, shouldnt be more than 110-120max, but the ~74% t2 against xan is impossible to play with... cath's will have to outvalue their main roidtarget in fleet just to get through.

I suggest an increase in firepower for the viper, roach, tarantula and scorpion. This should increase effectivity vs xan substantially, in order to not make cath too powerfull i suggest an increase in emp ress for ter, zik and etd FR/DE aswell, so it stays around 105-130% effectivity.

Furthermore i suggest a decrease in cath CO emp ress, as thats just insane :P

To make ETD DE playable init for predator should be changed to 2, so the newly buffed viper won't dominate it completly and make it useless.

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beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=w8gq83y3iewktx0

thats what he meant... something is broken :P

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I suppose it is a mistake that the pillager steals Fi as T1, nothing as T2, and Co as T3...

Pillager Corvette Fi - Co Steal 20 1 13 14 58 95 95 110 433 466 Etd

(maybe that is why the calc doesnt work either... since all the pillagers power goes into shooting 'nothing' as T2...)

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good point, but its not a mistake with Co t3, however a way to solve it might be to let it target fi t1, fi t2 and then co t3

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Wouldn't that make it shoot twice vs FI? And making it kinda insanely effective vs. fi?

I find Terran FR extremely strong with all the A/C and D/C. Though the Pegasus is kinda obsolete because of the Centaur.

Etd is kinda weak atm. As someone I talked to said, there isn't just an Etd hole open to FICO, it's a void! Avenger init makes it very weak vs anything except Cutlass and Thief.. The Pillager would be better if CO was t2 instead of t3. It still gets owned by Cat CO or Xan Fi though. Predator with Emp just doesn't work vs Cat co with it's ~60% efficiency. Cat co can launch on Etd with no fear of loosing ships. Pred works better against Xan fico, but you'd need to have around 40-50% of your res spent into Preds to keep a likesized Xan at bay.

Teamed with some other races, Etd might be good, but right now they need too much help to be usefull.

The light side of them is the Tycoon, very nice init. And Guardian t3 FR is also nice. But it will be hard to play Etd BS+Pillager/Pred/Avenger.

I don't think I'll be playing Etd this round :\

Re: Round 34 Stats
 

no, you will continue shooting t1 as long as there is fi to shoot at

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any recent changes?

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The zikonian efficiencies HAVE TO be upped. Seriously, they are even lower than they were last round and last round there were hardly any zik planets doing well.

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Yes, I've made a set of changes last night and more minor changes tonight. I completely forgot to note down last night's changes, sorry :(

tonight, I've increased zik emp resistance slightly, dropped the predator init, increased some zik efficiencies, and improved the cath pod fleet ships (+ guardian)

and changed the pilager T3 to a T2

Re: Round 34 Stats
 

This is just a by the way and not massively something to be worried over but your pods are miles too powerful. Like 30% more powerful than last round which already had irritatingly strong pods (although this was also partially due to cost disparities which also occur in your stats). The cost of the pod should always be slightly less than the cost of the most expensive same racial class attack ship with slightly better armour!


More generally although I like the direction there's not much "innovative" in the stats. I'd probably replace the fairly pants (good efficiencies but off-class and unlikely to be built that much as a result) cath killships with something cool like an init 3 de class anti-fi. This provides something unique for cath, should help compensate versus xan fi/co, which looks very strong, without going down the tedious path of trying to work out how much you need to nerf efficiencies.

Similarly I'd have questions over the pegasus. All it seems to do is make it harder for cath to roid terrans and caths are pretty hard up in the first place. Although to be honest if you actually intend on leaving emp efficiencies at this level we might as well just remove cath as an option from the race choices or having a giant flashing warning saying "ONLY PICK THIS IF YOU WANT TO SCAN OR COV-OP". Seriously, these are exactly the sort of stats that made cath ****ing appalling when multi-targeting was first introduced.

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The switched targeting in Viper/Roach and Widow/Tara just isn't working out.
At best you'll get 160/96% on one's targeting and 96/160% on the other's, leaving you either strong vs one class and terribly weak against the other, or you'll end up building both ships leaving both those fleets on mediocre strength.

Cath's killships are indeed quite useless, the only use I can come up with is using Xan Fi as fodder for your Gnat, but even that's not really efficient. I'd rather see the two ships switched. The Locust a Fi shooting Fr/De, and the Gnat a De shooting Co/Fi, making Cath Co vs Cath a little harder (with Beetle EMP'ing Viper), and since almost all Fr/De fires Co first (except the Peg) it gives the Locust a purpose as well.

Also like the idea of the init 3 Cath killship, though as it is Cath already slaps Xan Fi in the face with 180% efficiency.

Pegasus needs a use. If the Viper is changed to De/Fr targeting, you could make the Pegasus an init 3 Co killer, with the Centaur's init changed to 6 targeting Fi/Co. Pure Ter Fr is looking way too strong at the moment, opening it up a bit to Xan Fi isn't a bad choice imo.

Etd and Zik look fine to me, they both have become a bit more playable with recent changes, though still not spectacular.
Predator's still a bit weak vs Revenant but that has more to do with ERes of Corvettes than it's own Guns.
Broker has pretty poor effs for its init.
Cutlass seems useless to me, the Thief has so many advantages over it, primary one being Cath Co efficiency and the amount of Co fodder around.

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Terran FR seems pretty sweet, maybe a little too good but perhaps not depending on how many Xan's are flying around...and since Xan Fi/Co is pretty rowdy with this set, I'd assume there will be quite a lot of Xans again this round.

Sack the Cath killships, for reasons already mentioned.

Zik look ok in principle, but the efficiencies still just aren't there. They need boosting.

Etd seems like a hell of a mess, heh.

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Cath is waaay to weak?!
Appoco, look at these calcs:
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=or5pntqyfzkcdpk
http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=0gpm5y5munqdneq

The cath needs more value on just widows then the ter and etd have on their attackfleets to stun it all...

How is a cath ever gonna build an attackfleet of himself then if he needs to put THAT much into a defship...?!


I know widow has BS as T2.. but still...
this is far from doable for a cath!

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Same problems with all other EMP t2's.

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Im not sure i agree on the terran issue here. Indeed terran FR is strong, but its far from indestructable. Cath CO teamup with xan FI (or big enough of either of them) will still take down a ter FR fortress. Furthermore Xan FR is easily able to roid terran FR aswell. With the xan stats so far we can assume we'll see alot of those this round so terran shouldnt get an easy round at all. If you switch cent to init 6 you force terrans to divide their value out on FR and DE, destroying the fortress and leaving them even more vulnerable than before.

This round is looking to be an offensive round (all good defships are in attack fleets), so xan will have an easy time coming by roids, while terran wont... to compensate for that it needs to be hard taking the roids from terran.

I agree with the cath issues, t2 is still too weak, the t1 imo is fairly reasonable all round, 150-160 vs xan and 110-140 against all others.

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In my opinion cath need a little upgrade on their T2s, especially versus the cr\bs classes, and xan might be a tad too strong in my opinion(i fear we will see ALOT of xans this round).

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http://beta.planetarion.com/bcalc.pl?id=at4g1e1ocza9t68

How exactly? And that's even assuming Xans will build as much Shadows as Ghost/Spirit, which they won't. And you can defend Ter Fr fairly easily with other Fr/De. Drake just has really good eff's.

I'll agree on the Xan/Cat Co teamups being a threat to Ter Fr, but you'll have to bring such big amounts that it will only happen in wartimes. During normal galraids Ter won't be picked much at first, and later on almost not at all.

The problem is that their t2's are t1's on other ships.

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Yeah well, could very well be that that is what should be fixed. Bottom line is that cath looks a bit weak to me.

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That is true, however going pure Ter FR is about the least imaginative and boring strategy known to man. Furthermore they are bad offensively, so they need to be hard to roid to be fair to the people who suffer through a whole round of such boredom. Safe to say that they are the beginners* race + fleetcombo of choice :\

* also people aiming to try and cap little roids and avoid incs all round long

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Change the Pred to be CO, and their anti fico problem is fixed.
Then, going ETD BS is actually viable. Their DE fleet will be next to useless, but who cares..