R66 ship stats
I've heard through the rummour mill that Patrikc is up to do the stats next round...
any truth to this? |
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They have been done and are in the final step of tweaking. You can find them at http://speedgame.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=stats currently.
I like to think they are an improved version of what last round's stats tried to be, with Fi/Bs's limited targeting making them offensive, Fr/De being defensive with 4 targets and Co/Cr being the in-between option. You'll notice some oddities with ERes of certain EMP ships - this was intentional to ensure these ships are not useless as they fire after their opposing attack fleets. Play around with some calcs, especially when combined with others of their class, and see the results! And again, while targeting and initiatives are effectively final*, numbers are still to be fiddled with. |
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I was hoping for a better calibre of stats
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First glance, "meh". Go Xan.
What's with the Terran "super Fi" without a ship name? |
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Constructive criticism is always welcome.
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Kind of agree with cochese. First look over these stats doesn't inspire. I'm not to sure what is going on with the ints too, it seems to be a trend of everything firing at a different time, which sounds boring. But I guess there is no other serous set on offer so we will end up with these . Playable but dull
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Haven't looked, but dull is good.
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Kiaba I thought you quit, or did norse winning this round drag you out of Retirement?
Decent stats, I hated the way De interacted in this past rounds stats and glad to see the fr/de meta class back to where it should be. I've always been a fan of Pat's stats, its good to see you back in the arena. I like that this set allows for forts, but also the mass xp route as well as many solo attack options. |
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Terran looks overpowered to me...particularly Terran BS. When combined with Cat its unstoppable.
Edit: Been looking at ways to solve this, and I would switch the Guardian targeting around. Think it balances the stats out better. |
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I can see you are concerned by this having looked at Guardian's EMP values...
WTF! haha. All over the place. Anyway, I will wait until you say they are finished because I'm not sure how final they are and will comment then. |
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DE forts? |
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These stats to me are everything we are trying to get away from. We have talked about reducing bp sizes or making everyone go random and then we have these which encourage the complete opposite. |
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Xan needs alot of tuning, even with 3 ships in CO class they still possess the most landing possibilities out of all races. Maybe make Cutter also init 6 or so to weaken Xan.
Otherwise its looking decent set, already in better shape than r65 was. |
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Nothing there can roid DE forts
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DE fort, avoidance, init to winit
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These stats doesn't just encurage forting, it made it to fort or go for xp.
You say FI is offensive, only thing you can roid is other etds (if you got enough), xan (if you got enough) and terran. But it's very easy to stop with forts. Don't see it as an option for any value play. Xan CO is an option because of tt and cloacked, but can't really attack forts either, and xan can pretty much be roided by everyone. No value play. DE looks strong, but can also be stopped by forts. CR and BS also very strong. My prediction, we'll se loads of forts. Every alliance will have fort avoidances. Either fort or go xp. All randoms will get roided to pieces and small alliances will get roided to pieces if they don't fort. Seems like we're in for a fun round! I'm not saying the sets unplayable, the stats are decent for top alliances, just that you have to fort or go for xp. Which I think is crap. |
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I liked the last set I played of yours Patrikc, but this one just looks all over the place and goes against the general community consensus (Check PA Suggestions forum).
Have we got any alternative sets? |
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edit: atm Pats set is on both speedgame and winter server |
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At least give the option of forting, xp and valueplay without forts. I see it as kind of strange that PA-crew would chose a set like this when there seems to be many that don't want forts. Also having a set that only allowes mid+heavy to do other then xp is also idiotic. Just profit the strong alliances. Would be interesting to hear what patrikc plan was with the stats. If he wanted a fort friendly set he succeeded at least. Also ensuring that they can't get xp farmed lateround And is something wrong with the illusion? It have to be a mistake? And guardian T2 is more efficent then t1 ? http://xmas.planetarion.com/statsanalysis.pl |
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at least you can still solo with these stats and not lolwave for 20 roids if I was to pick a positive. |
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I don't see a problem with an EMP ship being more efficient T2 than T1, and specifically the Guardian fires after Cat Bs, though I'd expect us to increase Cat Bs ERes by a point or two (though in reality only the Hornet's ERes matters). As I said, numbers aren't fixed yet. As for forting, I wanted to be Fr and De forts to be an option, not a must-go. Fr forts would be open to Bs XP runs while De would be open to Fi ones. As long as galaxy size isn't at 8 or higher, I don't predict that being a huge problem. |
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Galaxies are always higher than 8? It will be another snooze fest post tick 500.
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Was at work, did some calcs now, and yea the illusion work. Just seemed wierd, also when it doesn't apply for the vampire. Shouldn't the same thing apply there? Same for the T2 targeting, wierd having it t2 higher. Don't have any problems with it, other then it being in in the high 160, but yea fine. For forting when the only "obsticale" is xp runs it's only a possibility for a while. Who do you think of alliances will go etd fi as a strategy? When you get a few ships the two xan's build some banshee and you're good. When you also opened up that BS can hit FR (and DE probably, depends on how many caths) it also become an possibility to fort as BS. Lets see what ally help you can get: FI = Beetle, Banshee, Cutlass Fort = Need 1 cutter fleet CO = Creditor, Phantom, harpy, Corsair. Fort= Pegs, Locust FR = Pulsar or bomber Fort= Rogue, bomber DE = Viper, scarab Fort= Guardian, roach CR/BS Forting and ally def is same thing. FR fort= Wasp, Locust, Scarab, tarantula, Mantis Clipper(-), Cutter(-), Buccaneer, Rogue, Cutlass Weak vs BS DE fort= Drake, Pegs, Gryphon, Dragon Bomber, Revenant, Banshee Weak vs FI (for a short while) CR fort= Rogue, marauder, cutlass Creditor, Recluse, Guardian, Tycoon Weak vs BS if loads of cath BS fort= Wyvern, dragon, pegs, (war frigate) Roach, tarantula, Wasp, Locust Weak vs FR So if you look however you fort you are only weak vs 1 thing. So FI can hit De forts, CO can't attack a fort. Can you think of any alliance going FI? So FI isn't really an option. FI and CO is what have the most ally def vs it as well, so seems like an idiotic choice to pick. You've made stats that have garantueed forting. Nobody in their right mind will go random. If you go random it's purely for XP or you're lucky ending up in a good gal Can ad this as well to show you why it'll be forting: FR ally (except if you outflak before you get to killing) Can outflak vs FI in ally (except mass Cutlass) No def vs CO in ally No def vs FR in ally Scarab vs DE in ally Forting gives em everything - anti-BS DE ally Can outflak FI No def vs CO Pulsar vs FR Bomber vs DE Forting gives them everything, but same problem with FI CR ally Can outflak vs FI Creditor vs CO No def vs FR No def vs DE Gives them everything if they fort BS ally Can outflak vs FI No def vs CO No def vs FR Scarab vs DE Gives them everything except anti-fr |
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I agree with many of the comments already mentioned; I too don’t like the emphasis this set puts on forts, and agree it seems unlikely that we will get the small galaxies you appear to be hoping for (although I would like this too) have you been given indications by the pa crew that they are cutting bp sizes?
So what are the obvious ship builds? Ter de - 5 ships; WF, Drake, Peg, Gryphon, Wyvern (or Phoenix) = 3 classes Ter bs – 5 ships; WF, Drake, Pegasus, Wyvern, Dragon = 3 classes Cat fr – 5 ships; Spider, Wasp, Locust, Scarab, Mantis = 3 classes Cat bs – 6 ships; Spider, Beetle, Locust, Mantis, Roach, Tarantula = 4 classes Xan co – 6 ships; Pulsar, Banshee, Wraith, Bomber, Revenant, Bolt Thrower = 2 classes Xan de – why go different? Zik fr – 4 ships; Clipper, Cutter, Buccaneer, Rogue = 2 classes Zik cr – 4 ships; Marauder, Rogue, Cutter, Buccaneer = 2 classes Etd fi – 5 ships; Creditor, Sylph, Avenger, Centaur, Guardian = 3 classes Etd cr – 4 ships; Avenger, Centaur, Crook, Guardian (very open to co if no creds though) = 2 classes Does this not seem a little unfair… particularly on poor cat bs? Moreover notice that every single one relies upon a downward firing ship somewhere, can’t get much more encouraging of forts than that. I also really don’t like the way xan have been done. Making them 6 ships is clearly to weaken them which as a xan hater I agree with but I dislike that it makes sense to go both de and co. Better to have xan a bit stronger and force them to make a choice imo. |
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I agree on Cath though, if you go Bs you have to commit to offense and forego keeping roids, which doesn't seem fair. Meanwhile Zik only needs 4, perhaps I'll put Rogue T2 on Marauder, though that still makes Zik Cr only need 4. Moving Cutter T2 to Clipper would solve this as well. All things that need consideration. Thank you both for your input! |
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But isnt it quite strange to make a set for gals of 6-7 planets and we got no indication for this happening? |
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Sorry to say, but this is the worst set proposed in a long time. Thats nothing personal. I know you have been makin proper sets in the past.
Forting is way too strong. Probably even mandatory to do good. Terran and war the mining page. No real counter option. Defensive game . Boring round. And all this even though the General forum consensus was hoping for more random play without forts. The worst time for a defensive set that is average at best. I would be asking for diffrent stats offers. But knowing how few time appoco has i am confident patc has appocos word allready. I can only hope patc has another set rdy, cause this one cant be fixed with a few tweaks but only a General targeting overhaul. |
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Forting Will always be a problem until the galaxy and Bp system is overhauled Live with it. Only Real way to avoid it is for 100% random gals or a max of 2 per Bp. That way we can have 90+ gals of less than 10 people.
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Xp or fort, that's the two only options you got with this set |
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If there is allready 2 strong reasons to do forts and now you add a third (a set of stats making forting mandatory), what outcome would you expect on the "fort-issue" !? |
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Can at least express my hopes... 100% agree on the matrix issue btw |
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Can someone clarify what the forting issue is?
So far all I have seen is people complaining that they aren't good/active enough to play in an effective fort |
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M0 any stet of stats can be made into a super heavy fort setup, its just how many options are their, is fr/de the only viable fort or can cr/bs also fort as well. In this set BS cant really fort as it only targets 2 classes which means splitting value into more than 4 ships which makes you weak.
In PA there are 2 viable strats, Xp or Value of which can be played 2 ways. Xp can be played with big attack fleets and small def fleets and just 2x/3x most of the round and not care about def/ holding roid value , usually works well with a high powered emp fleet + a high init kill ship in the other fleet. Or you can play MC Value sink which has been mostly nerfed by the PA staff. Value can be played either in a fort set up where you can min-max your value so that every ship you build has a good matchup vs the attackers ratios usually benifiting from ingal eta def ships to force good calcs. Or you can play hyper Defensive where you have good dc's and strong def combo's in order to force recalls or retal with good fc's for value gains. This is how PA works fundamentally You are doing one of those basic ideas. My point is saying this set of stats is too easy to fort i beg you to show me a set of stats in the past 15 rounds where you CANT fort because they will always exist and if the players are good enough they will do well. So to attack a set of stats for being too easy to fort just tells me that you are not creative and would rather just bash at Pat because you've even said that my set 2 rounds ago was the worst now you are saying this set is even worse than that? You either must have had your brain taken out and put back in or that's the only way you can analyze stats. |
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Your set from two rounds ago were the worst stats I've ever played, and these stats follow the same pattern...and you are praising them as looking good (which doesn't surprise me!) |
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I also think its a bit ridiculous that there is only 1 race with fi pods and 1 race with co pods.
It shows where Patrikc's mind was at when creating these stats. |
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Tia; it is rather confusing that in PA we have two different things we both call forts.
The first is where the stats are defensive and a player can play with most of his value in one ship type. The second is where galaxies are mostly made of one alliance. Perhaps strangely for the strat forum and stats thread where we normally talk about the first type m0 and sandvold are actually referring to the second type here. This is a result of the dominance of downward firing compared to ally def ships. |
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2. Politics/bad HCs 3. Forts have no bearing on allegiances 4. Once again it's bad politics/hcs that allow this to happen, not forts |
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Have you played recently? Because all of your points are false.
Referring to community spirit...it would decrease the likelihood of inexperienced players being booted out of gal at the first chance they get. It's important to try and help new players rather than simply dispose of them. There is no real reason for them to want to stay and play with the attitudes forts adhere to. |
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Forts are just a style of play. They are possible in any scenario as they basically revolve around having a group of players looking after each other. Although stats like these improve the chance of fort success it does not mean every fort will be successful. All of your reasons above are not the result of forting being a blight on PA. They are in fact all down to bitter little tinpot HCs who refuse to wipe clean slates round on round and instead refuse to work with certain groups cos of a bad experience 15 rounds ago or so. The lack of competent and fluid politics and ridiculous nap/avoidance agreements are the genuine scourge of the game. You will find that alliances that truly fort to improve defence will not start wars over a fort getting hit yet those which fort for the sake of getting naps and avoidance will happily go to war because their sub standard fort players got wtfpawned because they weren't up to scratch. I feel I need to drive this point home that although these stats aren't great that truly good players can play a fort with any stats as the fort is solely a reliable defpool for the team. What is more a killer of community spirit is certain HCs spewing bile all over these forums and throwing serious allegations about the legitimacy of players and alliances playing within the rules without STiLL providing a shred of evidence to prove it. That drives a wedge right through the community and does more damage than 4-5 guys out of 600 wanting to play for each other |
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I'm sure they have proof...
And this has nothing to do with what you speak of. So don't bring it into this thread either. Fencing gals results from others having played together previously and joining certain alliances just to avoid incs. I fail to see how this is down to HC's "poor politics" as you put it. Certain Bps specifically join different alliances for this sole purpose. And yes, every time a fort is targeted in modern PA it turns into war, so no it is not politics again. Near enough everyone has fort avoidances in place to benefit themselves and to the detriment of random galaxies. You say political allegiances aren't affected by forts which is completely false. If you are in galaxies with other alliances you would have to pick and choose your naps wisely based around certain mitigating factors...e.g. number of planets of certain alliances in galaxies with your planets, the strategy of said alliances. It has everything to do with it. Yes, I agree that certain alliances prefer working together - but have you noticed its the same alliances working together near enough each round. Why is this? The point is not how to play forts Kaiba, but that you have to play forts to have any chance of success - which is a limiting factor that lends itself to the boredom of each round. If you don't get that then I would like your Doc to provide me with a prescription of what you're smoking! |
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No value play can be played as long as you have possibility of alliance def, which you don't have with most strategies in this set. Hell I've played value every round since i returned and not once forted. You have three options, fort value, random value and xp. This set removes random value altogether. I wasn't particular fond of your set, but didn't think it was crap either. For random gals I acutally would say this set is interesting since you force galaxies to def eachother. Lets look at the possible alliance stratgies which I already did for four, but I can throw in the other two as well to show why you would fort, aka 5 ppl from same ally. FI ally (lets throw in zik so it's even an option to get some def) Cutlass to outflak vs FI in ally (not very likely if you go FI) Creds vs CO in ally No def vs FR in ally No def vs DE in ally Forts give everything, but anti-co is the same Co ally Can outflak vs FI in ally No def vs CO Pulsar vs FR Wraith vs DE No difference forting or not FR ally Can outflak vs FI in ally (except mass Cutlass) No def vs CO in ally No def vs FR in ally Scarab vs DE in ally Forting gives em everything - anti-BS DE ally Can outflak FI No def vs CO Pulsar vs FR Bomber vs DE Forting gives them everything, but same problem with FI CR ally Can outflak vs FI Creditor vs CO No def vs FR No def vs DE Gives them everything if they fort BS ally Can outflak vs FI No def vs CO No def vs FR Scarab vs DE Gives them everything except anti-fr Forting 4-5 from each alliance gives you an huge advantage with every strategy except going CO. Going CO is to weak to go a full alliance on your own, since it got to many holes for value play. For xp on the other hand it works. So downward firing and it's an advantage to fort. It's not been this bad in the other sets |
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This isn't about falling short...this is about the game not being entertaining and community spirit dwindling, so quit going on the offensive. We all know of your love for Ult, you don't need to preach about it in every single thread.
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Like booji and sandvold allready pointed out there is no viable option for value play while not sitting in a forted gal, as the options for ally def are simply not available or too weak. And relying on prelaunched defence works only for the most active. At the same time its only secondary if those forts exist of 1 or more alliances, but as recent politics showed, usually its 1 alliance. There wont be a set where you CANT fort, but there have been a lot of sets where forting wasnt the only viable option. Usually a set where 1 metaclass can hit 4 others is doomed to be easily too defensive. This set has 2 of those, spread on 4 of 5 races. Apologies for my rather harsh statement about those sets beeing the worst sets i have ever seen, iŽll try to adapt my expression here and call them just bad sets. |
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