Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

What: To freeze income after 24 hours for planets in cluster 200.

Why: To avoid that players stay idle in cluster 200 to gather resources without actually playing.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

An alternative is to cap income at e.g. 50,000 of each resources per tick. This way the smaller planets gets a basic income of resources and we avoid exploitations.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

i think it would be better to change the cost of initing roids. there's already too much initing and not enough attacking. my idea:

1) make initing up to 400 roids cheaper

2) make initing from 400 to 500 slightly more expensive than now

3) make initing over 500 roids 10 times more expensive than it is now.

hopefully, this would solve both jinstarro's issue and the problem of not enough attacking.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

Why is going on holiday an exploit?

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

Since you stole the idea from me I have to agree jinstarro ;)

Building up the planet to abuse the protection of c200 while on holiday is the exploit, not the holiday itself.
This is exploiting c200 as paid vacation mode.

Hopefully Multihunters will see that this clearly see this as an exploit used solely to gain a unfair advantage. Also a playstyle which doesn't require you to play to end in the top, and if used by many would speed up the final death of pa, as you cant log into pa and actually play the game.

Pa rules:
Deliberate attempts to use bugs/exploits through AND/OR other than through the standard pages

Punishment: Multihunters will contact PA Team. Together they will decide what abuse is and what not, and determine possible punishment if needed

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

and btw, i dont think players should be punished for being smart. change the rules next round.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

So doing anything to improve your planet pre vacation is an exploit, in your opinion? If so, then it's the existence of vacation mode you have a problem with, not anything else.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

There is nothing illegal about going into c200 to be safe from incs, so there's nothing wrong with what Dav did. Calling it an exploit is dumb. However, that doesn't make it a desireable development. Not playing the game is not something that should be encouraged, as it evidently is now. We have a hard enough time getting people to sign up as is, no need to give people an option to play the game for a few days, then idle out the round in c200.

I think Jinstarro's suggestion is quite reasonable, though I would extend the duration to 5 days. That way, there's no point in initing past about 1k roids.


As for the roid initing formula. I think the last few rounds (r49 and 51 especially) have shown that defensive stats no longer work as well as they used to (ie, r30). The composition of the universe has changed. Defensive stats encourage people to init, which is a rather boring single player-ish approach to the game, rather than attempting to steal them from others, which ties in much better with PA's core strengths.

Therefore, stats makers for future rounds should have learned from the mistakes made in recent rounds (by me, amongst others!), and we should no longer see situations in which initing to ridiculous numbers is viable, so there's no need to make it expensive as well.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

c200 isn't a place to improve your planet, its a place for inactive planets to be sent for the remainder of the round, and for planets to be for a few ticks when exiled while offline. When you're clearly using it as a ~1k tick protection after mass initation, you're exploiting the c200 functionality.

Also the ruler and planet name:
COME AT ME BRO OH WAIT! YOU CANT!
clearly states that this was planned not just smth that happened when he went to vacation.

And not really smart or original, and just slightly better executed than the other horrible attempts there have been on this before. And this attempt wont win by just sitting c200(by my calculation it will end up just under 9 mill value) it would actually need to get out at some point and start playing, but in a random gal with no tech staying in c200 and hope for a rank 10 will be better.

Tip for the next one whos gonna do it.
Xp land before init.
Init more roids.
Have escorts on the 3 fleeting you do while offline in c200 to make sure they land.
Finance centres > refineries.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

Yeah, I agree mz. I wish people wouldn't talk such ^&%7 about exploits though.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

you cannot init more than this unless you stay in the real universe longer, this ofc means less time in c200 doing nothing but getting income. getting people to escort for this would be tough (i doubt anyone would want to), but yeah good idea. xp land before init is also a good idea, thanks for the tips.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

You can easily fill out the 2k hct without staying longer thats np.
but should atleast stay in real for a tad longer so you can fill out a 2500 roid count if you want a chance at the win. Since its over a 20% increase in income(and also some extra percent from more fc's)

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

this is not possible for a number of reasons. mostly the research points required, how long you need to be in the real universe to do it and the amount of res required. bear in mind, cores > the extra roids from the extra HCT

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

just to illustrate that, rough cost of initing to 2500 roids is 52mil of each resource.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

he has the 2k research so thats the same rp needed. for the 2500 its just another 30 ticks. To get the resources ull have to stick around for another 50-75 ticks longer than the 2k strat but it will pay off massively.
its 52mill from 0 to 2500.

but you only have to go from like 500 - 2100.
the first 500 is like 2 mill saved each, the 2100-2500 is like 16 millions each. taking the sum down to 34 mill. half of that you get in gal fund donation the other half you have stocked. You will however need to play with a decent bp that can feed this cash and still beat ur score but its not that hard when you plan it from the start.

from 2100 and upto 2500 you get from quest roids, upgrade bonus, and 3 attacks with 1-2 escort fleet on securing you the final ~250 roids needed to hit the 2500 target.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

this relies heavily on everything going exactly as you want. i.e not getting roided when you have 500 roids and sod all ships, all 3 attacks landing without the escorts having to land, getting people to escort you.

many many variables tbh, whereas the 1800 ish roid tactic requires minimal effort for massive gain.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

If all goes perfect you could go alot higher than 2500 ;)
you can get roided np, and you dont have to land all the attacks, 2 is enough. landing 2 out of 3 attacks while escorted is really np, unless you're hitting someone who read this thread and keep enough home to kill the planet with little ship value sending on him.

and the 2k roid tactic requires just as little effort as the 1800roids tactic. the stupid thing with doing them is that you miss out on a round, and you dont even win while doing it.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

sadly plaguuu, you entirely miss the point. 2k roids isnt just as little effort and the point is not to win. the point is to do **** all and still have a better planet than the vast majority of players.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

then do it with 1500 roids and go for a safe t50, its better than the majority ;)

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

Why? This is an undesired effect of C200, so said person is in fact exploiting this feature. You expect admins to add a rule for everything people can exploit? We could also just use common sense to solve these matters...

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

So, it was legal when omb did it back in the day, illegal when I did it a year ago, and now it is legal again?

[20:56] <Patrikc> Like I said, it has been done half a dozen other times and they came out and played on afterwards.
[20:56] <Patrikc> omb being the first that I remember
[20:58] <Patrikc> http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=197182
[20:58] <MH> 99% of those got spotted and returned to normal uni


I guess Dav is the 1%!

PS. it seems mz made this thread's exact same suggestion 5 years ago...

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

I'll quote myself from the post Patrikc referred to:
The word 'exploit' has a very definite meaning, separate from just exploiting something. If I send Cr to someone without anti-Cr, that's not an exploit, that's exploiting a weakness. When Ascendancy played for XP in r16, that was not an exploit, but it was exploiting an aspect of PA in a way that people didn't realize was viable, until that point. Ensuring that this was not a viable approach to playing the game the next round was a good move, but there was no exploit. An exploit is a cheat. Exploiting something is just smart.



I was told Wishmaster asked the MHs for permission to do this last round, and was told that he'd be put back. I don't think there's a rule that Dav violated, so I disagree with moving people out of c200 against their will. That said, I think it is wrong for the MHs to say they'll respond to ingame actions in one way, and then actually act in another. Consistency is more important than doing the right thing.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

This strategy is an undesired side-effect of C200. Sure it is not in the rules and thus not illegal but every person with the capability to think knows it's not what C200 is for and is therefore an exploit. It is very different from exploiting a weakness in the shipstats of a certain race or exploiting a hole in someone's ship setup as that's a desired part of the game.

Besides if MH's have moved planets from C200 to the active universe in the past it is now a rule through Iuris Prudentia. I'm sure Dav knew this and therefore it is an exploit.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

Fortunately, what we're asked to agree to when we sign up is not the entire history of multihunter decision making, but only what is in the EULA. Nowhere does it mention anything related to c200 being illegal. The only way it could be illegal is a standard clause: the EULA reserves the right for PA Team to change the terms without prior warning. Though it's not quite spelled out explicitly, I'm assuming this could be done midround.

This means that if PA Team were so inclined, they could make this strategy illegal by modifying the EULA, and then move Dav out of c200. Since this has not happened (yet?), it cannot be said that Dav has done anything wrong as far as the rules are concerned. Even if PA Team had modified the EULA midround, if we judged people based on what might at some point in the future be made illegal, we wouldn't be able to do anything at all. I'm sure I could come up with some fancy Latin phrase for this too.

Ultimately, what we're dealing with here is a common theme in PA history. There's some prevailing idea of how PA should be played, and every time someone comes up with a new way to play (XP, cov ops, disting, fortressing, avoiding incs through vacation mode, hiding in c200, the list goes on), some smallminded people become outraged because their neat little preconceptions have to be thrown out of the window.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

This is not 'a new way to play'. It was done before, it was banned back then. Why wouldn't it be now? When the MH's/admins decided to handle a similar case like that by not allowing it back in the day they have basically made it a rule.

You want everything added to the EULA which would make it a terribly long and complicated document and then we could all play law student here, argueing about its interpretation and what not? I don't really think that's desirable. Besides we all know the PA team can't be arsed that much. ;p

(I don't call cov-oping, playing for XP etc. using exploits. I have merely said people are exploiting the exile system, that it is flawed and that it should be changed. This is something different altogether in my opinion though, as this is clearly not what C200 was intended for.)

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

That is not how a EULA works. This is not a common law system. There is a document, and when we sign up we agree to abide by that document. We do not agree to abide by a set of precedents dating back 52 rounds.

Yes, I want the EULA to tell us specifically which actions are disallowed. There is no confusion whether signing up a second account on your tablet or phone is allowed, the EULA specifies one account per person, in 3 sentences. There is no confusion whether you can let yourself be attacked by a friend, the EULA explicitly forbids both being a farm and farming, in 3 sentences. There is no confusion whether you can let yourself be defended by a friend, because the EULA does not specifically forbid it.

If you want hiding in c200 to become illegal, then yes, it must be part of the document that enumerates all the actions that are forbidden in the game. That's what the damn thing is for! It wouldn't take more than a couple of sentences, either, there's no need for a 10,000 word essay.

As long as the EULA does not forbid idling in c200, then the MHs do not have the authority to force people out of c200. If they've done so in the past, then that was wrong. I for one would rather not give the MHs the authority to enforce rules that are not documented anywhere.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

Problem with such a system is that people find holes, they get fixed, people find new holes, those get fixed.... i.e. the system always lags behind. So why have a system that fails? :/ (Not to mention it would require more effort from the PA team which is also not realistic.)

I'm certain atleast 95% of the community thinks this is lame and even more people know this is not what C200 is intended for (Dav himself aswell). What's wrong with relying on that?

In reality nobody would complain if his resources got removed except for a few people stating it's not in EULA (not stating it's not what c200 is for). But that's arguing for the sake of argument.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

I would complain even if I agreed with you that hiding in c200 is shit. Retrograde application of unspecified rules is a Bad Thing. Having a system that lags behind is infinitely preferable to a system in which a small group of people get to make up the rules as they go along, and anyone who thinks otherwise should read up on their history.

As for people who think this is "lame", quite frankly I don't give a shit. It's a meaningless value judgement that has nothing to do with what's good for the game and everything to do with people who are butthurt they didn't think of this first. And while we're at it, 95% of people agree with me. See, I can make up arbitrary numbers too!

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

Is it a stupid thing to be able to win by not playing? Yes.

Should it be allowed? No.

Should MH force Dav out of c200? No way. I don't want MH powers to pick and choose what is fair and what is not, they have to follow the rules the same as all of us.

Simple fix for next round: Only 5 days in c200 making res, then it stops. Make this 5 days (120 ticks) in total over a round to prevent people jumping back in.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

Holy shit! I agree with Forest!?

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

I don't really care one way or another (although not every 'new' way of playing PA should be killed on sight because it upsets the norm) - all I want is consistency in enforcing the rules.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

So you would have Dav win the round and fix it afterwards? That's incredibly stupid. And has in fact a lot to do with what is good for the game, as I can't see it not negatively influencing the size of the memberbase and/or morale.

Also people have come up with it before, but it wasn't allowed back then! An entirely different discussion. It's not something new. MH's have acted on it back then and not now... So your reasoning that people are butthurt because they didn't think of it first fails. Hard. It's why I'm arguing that because of MH's previous decisions it should be seen as a rule. Just because the admins are too lazy to update the EULA shouldn't affect us.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

Just to clarify something that I feel is important to clear up.

Quote from Rules and regulations page:

Deliberate attempts to use bugs/exploits through AND/OR other than through the standard pages

Punishment: Multihunters will contact PA Team. Together they will decide what abuse is and what not, and determine possible punishment if needed.

AND

Any other form of cheating or abuse

Punishment: Dependant on seriousness of offence. Decisions will be made by the multihunter team and/or PA Team


http://game.planetarion.com/manual.pl?page=rules



I'm not going into what happens in the internal discussion in any case ongoing or in the past, nor am I going to render a verdict in public but every time we encounter issues that is not "directly" against the rules, but still something that needs to be clarfied if it is breaking the rules or not, there is a process in place for making a decision like this. Its not in the hands of the MH's alone, but something that is being done with both the PA team and the MHs involved.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

i would just like to say kudos to MHs and pateam on making the worst possible decision regarding this. dav was removed from c200, had a shit load of fleets launched at him, then exiled back in to c200.

admin authorised farming.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

Lame shit.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

they popped him out again! oh my lord it's so comical.

at least recall fleets and put him in vacmode.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

I love the irony of how uncommon common sense is ,
and the lesson we learn from this don't dare think outside the box or play differently to the cry baby's because they will throw their toys out of the pram and cry like a bitch

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

Or maybe you dont do stuff that others been punished for in the past and actually think outside the box and do something new instead of the same old shit.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

so you expect everyone to know every decision ever made without any of them being published? how is this possibly anywhere near reasonable?

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

the hilarious thing is that the person that first spotted him get kicked out of c200 has been able to farm him and is now top planet. so removing dav from c200 has had a much greater impact on final rankings than leaving him there was ever going to.

epic fail is epic.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

any word yet on who made the decision to remove him from c200 ?

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

as per usual, they won't discuss any cases. however, from kargools post + him saying that MHs cannot remove someone from c200, it must have been a joint MHs/pateam decision.

not sure how we are supposed to learn what things aren't allowed when they won't put it in the rules AND they won't discuss it.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

who was punished for doing this before ?

I was referring more to
xp play nerfed after asc won rd 16
salvage nerfed after rd 30
donations nerfed
until the idiots realise that the more ways to play the more likely we are to retain players and having only one way to play the game is boring as ****

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

Closing him while under investigation I could understand

Moving him back to the active universe immediately I could understand

Putting him in vac mode I could understand

But to randomly force him back in the middle of the night 200 ticks later without telling him I just can't understand

Whoever did this should not have admin powers after tonight

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

no I dont expect everyone to know all decissions. But thinking that you can win the game without playing it cause of exploiting protection mode in c200, without any risk of being banned or taken action against is borderline retarted, then again Im pretty sure he know his risks, and he's not the one saying that its all ok and stuff, thats the work of other people.

Mh handled this as many case before in a very shitty matter they lack someone with more than 0% creativity to come with such an idea as yours to put him in vacmode when exiling him from c200 or freezing/capping his income such mentioned in this thread.

And yeah there should really be a place you can see how mh ruled against certain cases such as this one. Or other "borderline" cases so they become common knowledge such as multiplanets.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

i really think you are missing the point. you say people should know but not everything? what if a new player breaks this rule? they would have no idea but still get punished. also, multiplanets IS CLEARLY AGAINST THE RULES IF YOU READ THEM. so again, sorry to say it but terrible arguments from you plaguuu.

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

Hahahaha this is so stupid.

It's almost like the MH's/PA team is doing this to piss us off. It's hard to believe they can be this stupid. :(

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

Agreed. XP should made more playable again etc.

However, 'c200' playing should never be allowed as that is just shit. :D

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

wether c200 should or should not be allowed isn't the issue , atm it is allowed so punishing someone for using it because the idiots cried a river is bullshit plain and simple , so far noone has owned up to putting dav back into the active uni and I assume they won't as they would be admitting to abusing their powers , from what I've heard the reason given to him was we don't really allow top 100 planets to stay in c200 for too long

Re: Freeze income for planets in cluster 200
 

Read the above posts. It was banned in the past. This is more about the fact that he was kept in c200 for a considerable amount of time and then randomly placed back. Opposed to being placed back straight away / have his resources taken away from him.