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-   -   R75 Shipstats (https://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=201498)

Tiamat101 1 Dec 2017 02:34

R75 Shipstats
 
Not to distract from this thread, but is someone working on next round stats? Because I would be interested in knowing if there is a rough draft in the works?

Cochese 1 Dec 2017 03:29

Re: Stats Xmas round 2017
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101 (Post 3260947)
Not to distract from this thread, but is someone working on next round stats? Because I would be interested in knowing if there is a rough draft in the works?

Excellent question.

Jintao 1 Dec 2017 06:00

Re: Stats Xmas round 2017
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101 (Post 3260947)
Not to distract from this thread, but is someone working on next round stats? Because I would be interested in knowing if there is a rough draft in the works?

Nobody submitted a set yet so nope

Mzyxptlk 1 Dec 2017 08:16

Re: Stats Xmas round 2017
 
Thankfully, because of the Christmas round, there's a little more time than usual.

Tiamat101 2 Dec 2017 06:12

Re: Stats Xmas round 2017
 
I know some of you will explode. But i have a set ive been working on and would like some feedback.

Kaiba 2 Dec 2017 06:28

Re: Stats Xmas round 2017
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101 (Post 3260966)
I know some of you will explode. But i have a set ive been working on and would like some feedback.

It cant worse than some of the stuff ive seen recently

Mzyxptlk 2 Dec 2017 08:44

Re: Stats Xmas round 2017
 
Anyone who "explodes" because of the name they see next to a set of stats is a moron. More stats always welcome.

Cochese 2 Dec 2017 19:08

Re: Stats Xmas round 2017
 
Post 'em up!

Tiamat101 2 Dec 2017 23:12

Re: Stats Xmas round 2017
 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

These are the set that i've been working with, Emp is hard to show on a spread sheet but T1's are going to be 140-160 and t2 is 70-90

Blue_Esper 4 Dec 2017 02:21

Re: Stats Xmas round 2017
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101 (Post 3260978)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

These are the set that i've been working with, Emp is hard to show on a spread sheet but T1's are going to be 140-160 and t2 is 70-90

Are you going to incorporate mixed etas?

Blue_Esper 4 Dec 2017 02:23

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Id also like to see higher dmg on steal ships

Tiamat101 4 Dec 2017 07:29

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
I was thinking about using 1 or 2 mixed etas but only with off roiding class ships. Also 430 dc for steal is really good given they have 450 ac, and cath xan are both under 400 ac. Meaning you value steal on everything but zik ter....

Blue_Esper 4 Dec 2017 09:56

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
yes but salvage sucks ass

Kaiba 4 Dec 2017 12:05

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue_Esper (Post 3260988)
yes but salvage sucks ass

What do you actually want stealing to do? As far as im aware its capped at 100%

Jintao 4 Dec 2017 12:28

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiba (Post 3260991)
What do you actually want stealing to do? As far as im aware its capped at 100%

Untrue

a skilled played can value steal if the zik's dc is higher than the defenders ac

Blue_Esper 4 Dec 2017 14:24

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
It's just a personal preference that zik steal ships have 450-500 dmg as they fire last and often have to lose a chunk of ships in order to steal

Mzyxptlk 4 Dec 2017 14:49

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jintao (Post 3260992)
a skilled played can value steal if the zik's dc is higher than the defenders ac

Indeed. It's really easy to test with SKs, for example.

Tiamat101 4 Dec 2017 22:39

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
I personally think they shouldnt be able to have 100% vs ter's and i generally put ter at 500 AC but they should be above xan D/C

Blue_Esper 5 Dec 2017 13:49

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
well if ter is 500 AC then zik can be 480 AC

Tiamat101 7 Dec 2017 00:06

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Made some changes:
Updated Zik D/C and A/C
Updated Cath A/C
Changed Mantis -> Widow
Changed Locus T1 T2
Changed Ghostship -> De
Adjusted a few etd D/C A/C

ChroNOS 7 Dec 2017 06:21

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Not a fan of Zik only starting with 3 class type. Every races should have 5 class type.

I find it excellent Zik can steal into 3 additional pods classes but it is lame Etd only steal ship may only steal into De, a pods class which they already posses.

Not sure either why Fr and De are literally targetable by every since classes as well. This is screaming FR/DE snoozefest already.

Tiamat101 7 Dec 2017 11:56

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
In past experience fr de round tend to favor crbs since they usually out init fr de.

Kaiba 7 Dec 2017 17:26

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101 (Post 3261022)
In past experience fr de round tend to favor crbs since they usually out init fr de.

Umless the fr/de is cloaked in an active gal. Then nothing lands. Flak ftw!

Tiamat101 7 Dec 2017 23:45

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
I mean we've had Cloaked fr/de many rounds and no one ever wants to do it because it LOSES to cr/bs. I mean look at Xan fr its prefired by 3 cr/bs solo. And in case you didnt notice its A/C is garbage, so your losing LOTS of value. IF you want to run an all xan fort then by all means every etd and zik can farm the shit out of you.

Kaiba 8 Dec 2017 07:04

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101 (Post 3261025)
I mean we've had Cloaked fr/de many rounds and no one ever wants to do it because it LOSES to cr/bs. I mean look at Xan fr its prefired by 3 cr/bs solo. And in case you didnt notice its A/C is garbage, so your losing LOTS of value. IF you want to run an all xan fort then by all means every etd and zik can farm the shit out of you.

Will they though? Up until tick 900 when xp kicks in aslong as you turn an attacking calc red they wont land. Because you have an eta advantage and you only need to provide flak you will turn back 95% of attackers with 1 xan fake/real.

I personally think your stats dont play into the mentality of the current playerbase and will lead to a very boring round. These are rd 5X stats not rd 7X ones.

Mzyxptlk 8 Dec 2017 08:07

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101 (Post 3261022)
In past experience fr de round tend to favor crbs since they usually out init fr de.

There have been plenty of rounds in which Fr/De dominated. In any case, "Fr/De rounds" in which Cr/Bs are favoured are not Fr/De rounds; they are Cr/Bs rounds.

Tiamat101 8 Dec 2017 09:41

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Show me a set ppl said was fr de at round start that ended with fr de as best strat.

Eitherway xan fr at 300 ac vs zik and etd both at 130% prefire and cath emp at 170. Go all xan if you like. Seems pretty bad vs co cr bs.

Kaiba 8 Dec 2017 10:55

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101 (Post 3261029)
Show me a set ppl said was fr de at round start that ended with fr de as best strat.

Eitherway xan fr at 300 ac vs zik and etd both at 130% prefire and cath emp at 170. Go all xan if you like. Seems pretty bad vs co cr bs.

Only 1v1 when you start stacking up the fake/real def the flak value wins all day long.

TheoDD 8 Dec 2017 12:05

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Im more worried about Ter being overpowered.
Combined with Etd or Cath, and Ter handles most if not all classes with ease.

Tiamat101 8 Dec 2017 15:28

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
See now thats the feedback thats helpful. Are ypu talking about de being too strong or bs? I already was toying with adjusting etd to NOT have de pods but could steal into, and give them fi bs pods.

Kaiba 8 Dec 2017 19:33

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101 (Post 3261032)
See now thats the feedback thats helpful. Are ypu talking about de being too strong or bs? I already was toying with adjusting etd to NOT have de pods but could steal into, and give them fi bs pods.

Fr is way too OP in your stats is very useful.

You keep chirping on about ac/dc but you neglect that Xan Fr is basically a 3 ship build against the 4-5 ship build of Zik Cr and Etd Bs (the only 2 claases that outint it.

Xan can literally funnel all its resources into 1 class permantly upgrading its flak with every production.

Quests will get nerfed and with these stats we will return to dross of Tias 'i love a fort' gameplay.

BORING.

Mzyxptlk 8 Dec 2017 20:58

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101 (Post 3261029)
Show me a set ppl said was fr de at round start that ended with fr de as best strat.

People are wrong about ship stats all the time. What does that have to do with the fact that Fr/De has been the strongest metaclass fairly often?

Your argument essentially seems to be this. People are saying Fr/De is the strongest. But I remember a few instances (when?) in which people said that, and it turned out Cr/Bs ended up being the strongest instead. Therefore, I don't have to listen when people say Fr/De is too strong. In fact, whenever people complain about Fr/De being too strong, I should make it even stronger.

I mean...

Tiamat101 8 Dec 2017 21:18

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
So Kaiba thinks that Xan fr, that targets 5 things and loses to Cr/Bs/Fr outright(losing to itself) is going to be a problem because of Xan Fake potential.

Thoedd thinks that Ter is overpowered because its a defensive powerhouse and can be covered quite easily with etd or cath.

Mzy again is not helping further the converstation and just picking out word plays. If you have something to say, say it constructively I can handle stats being called shit but I want to know WHY you think they are shit.

Atm im thinking of changing ETD to remove De pods and give them Fi pods and rework the class just a bit also gonna remove a DE and add a CO likely either an emp or a cloak that prefires Xan Fr(less likely)

This will server dual purpose, removes the inherent double team up that ter/etd had giving me more security in that terran will be right where I want it OFFENSIVELY(Limited attack options) Also allows me to taylor etd Fi vs Fr.

Kaiba 8 Dec 2017 21:27

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101 (Post 3261035)
So Kaiba thinks that Xan fr, that targets 5 things and loses to Cr/Bs/Fr outright(losing to itself) is going to be a problem because of Xan Fake potential.

Thoedd thinks that Ter is overpowered because its a defensive powerhouse and can be covered quite easily with etd or cath.

Mzy again is not helping further the converstation and just picking out word plays. If you have something to say, say it constructively I can handle stats being called shit but I want to know WHY you think they are shit.

Atm im thinking of changing ETD to remove De pods and give them Fi pods and rework the class just a bit also gonna remove a DE and add a CO likely either an emp or a cloak that prefires Xan Fr(less likely)

This will server dual purpose, removes the inherent double team up that ter/etd had giving me more security in that terran will be right where I want it OFFENSIVELY(Limited attack options) Also allows me to taylor etd Fi vs Fr.

Here i am sittimg on 250k fr and you come attacking with your prefire cr/bs. You kill 100k of my fr so i only have 40k anti cr/bs firing.

Get 1 xan def from equal size xan. Now there is POTENTIALLY 500k fr there and you still only kill 100k and now 70k of my anti cr/bs MIGHT fire alongside 70k of my deffer.

Attackers recall.


Its too easy, even more so ingal. 3 fleet attack. Still have to calc full fleet whenever you attack them. Xan is OP as hell.... regardless of your 20 point ac tweaks.

Mzyxptlk 8 Dec 2017 22:55

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101 (Post 3261035)
Mzy again is not helping further the converstation and just picking out word plays.

If you have something to say, say it constructively I can handle stats being called shit but I want to know WHY you think they are shit.

"Word plays"? I am responding seriously to your arguments, exactly what you're asking. Also, I haven't said (or even thought!) your stats are shit, you've literally made that up.

Tiamat101 9 Dec 2017 04:26

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Its funny that you think etd zik will only kill 100k of your fr.... with ac the way it is xan will lose way more than attackers.

Kaiba 9 Dec 2017 08:20

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101 (Post 3261038)
Its funny that you think etd zik will only kill 100k of your fr.... with ac the way it is xan will lose way more than attackers.

Im putting up arbitary numbers to prove my point about the power of cloaked flak.

Tiamat101 9 Dec 2017 09:22

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
I understand cloaked flack but xan fr attack power sucks so they wont habe the normal value advantage as other fr de fort strats. Ontop of that the cr bs fleets can solo land on 2x xan so with teams even 3x wont cover. And it only takes 1 or 2 'crashes' to kill entire gal and strat because salvage sucks.

Tbh i dont know why im arguing you about xan when ter de is way more a problem.

Kaiba 9 Dec 2017 10:08

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiamat101 (Post 3261044)
I understand cloaked flack but xan fr attack power sucks so they wont habe the normal value advantage as other fr de fort strats. Ontop of that the cr bs fleets can solo land on 2x xan so with teams even 3x wont cover. And it only takes 1 or 2 'crashes' to kill entire gal and strat because salvage sucks.

Tbh i dont know why im arguing you about xan when ter de is way more a problem.

Because anytime a cloaked race can contain its build into 1 class then its OP. You could give it 350/300/250 ac/dc its irrelevant. Fact stands that a 60 man alliance going fr forts in these stats is going to get so far ahead because its a nightmare to land.

Tiamat101 9 Dec 2017 12:41

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Any Round, any ally can go all xan and have the same ship build and they will have the SAME advantage. Just because all your value is in Fr doesnt mean shit, you still cant defend vs Co incs effectively and even Fi incs will be hard to cover outside of ingal which wont be able to cover everything. Yeah a 6 or 7 man fort has 21 fleets to send out but You can do that with any MT round yet people dont because ultimatly if the xan ships arent good they wont gain value and by pt700+ they wont have the ships to stand up. ESPECIALLY when they are being out damaged by almost 150%, 1 crash loses an entire fr fleet and since salvage sucks you cant build that shit back.

Forting only works if defensivly you can out value the attackers if you have to lose 500k value in fr to cover 1 or 2 man cr/bs wave and they are landing for 600-1000 roids they will do it. If i had stats in beta and could show you calc i would show you xan even 3:1 cant deal enough damage to stop etd bs or zik cr.

Blue_Esper 28 Dec 2017 17:35

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Stats are now up on Beta server. comment away...

Makhil 30 Dec 2017 13:12

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
doesn't look like what was discussed...

Shhhhhhh 30 Dec 2017 13:23

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
yea Xan Fr doesnt seem like much of a problem anymore now.

Whats going on with the T2 targetting? it doesnt seem to work atm.

Kaiba 30 Dec 2017 15:50

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh (Post 3261167)
yea Xan Fr doesnt seem like much of a problem anymore now.

Whats going on with the T2 targetting? it doesnt seem to work atm.

Yes the fact there is no xan fr roid class fixes that....

Mzyxptlk 30 Dec 2017 18:01

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Can't have a problem with Xan Fr if you don't make any Xan Fr.

Insert picture of the black dude tapping his temple.

Mzyxptlk 1 Jan 2018 22:15

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
OK, I ran the numbers.

First, two easy ones:

Distributator -> Distributor
Pedlar -> Peddler

Ter De looks very strong: it's not the best roiding fleet, but it's very strong defensively. It needs a significant nerf, probably beyond just effs. Bs and De/Bs are not quite as overpowered, but still very good fleets. For those, I'd look into nerfing the Devastator somewhat. Fi and Fi/De are a bit weaker, but still middle of the pack overall.

Cat looks very weak. Everything roids it. I couldn't find a single fleet that it's safe from. Of all the fleets, pure Cr comes closest to viability (thanks to its very strong offensive capabilities), but if you can't hold value, EMP is not playable. I took a very quick look at the effs page, and I saw way too many effs at 13X%. We know what EMP effs should be, stop trying to reinvent the wheel. Raise all the T1 effs to 160-170%. It's hard to say if that'll be enough, but it's a good first step. The T2 effs look good.

Xan is in a good place right now. Not too strong, not too weak. The Cat buff will hurt both fleets a bit, but the Devastator nerf will help it again. Hard to tell how it'll balance out. You could reduce E/R if Cat is still too weak, or improve Armor if Ter is too strong.

Zik Co/Fr looks strong. The Co fleet is best offensively while the Fr provides the defense. Zik Co on its own is a bit weaker, but still about as good as Xan's fleets. Zik Co can choose between Dagger/Thief and Cutter for its anti-Co/Bs, and surprisingly, the latter is worse. A slight nerf to Dagger or slight buff to Cutter might be a good idea. Leave the Thief alone: nerfing that buffs Ter Bs. I dislike that there's no Zik Cr pod. Judging by the Buccaneer and the near-perfect target division between Zik Fr and Cr, you want Ziks to have a viable Cr roiding fleet. In my opinion, there's no reason not to give them a pod. Witholding it just encourages cheating of the absolute easiest and hardest to detect sort.

Etd Fr/Bs is pretty good. The Bs half roids better than any fleet other than Cat Cr, and the Fr half provides the defensive coverage that pure Bs lacks. I looked into both Bs + Dealer and Bs + Investor: they're equivalent, but the better ETA on the Investor makes Dealer obsolete. Pure Fr is worse than Fr/De and Bs in both offense and defense. This might be a good target for nerfing Ter and buffing Etd at the same time. And here too, EMP effs need to be raised by about 20 percentage points.

Note: I have only looked at solo fleets.

Makhil 2 Jan 2018 11:12

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk (Post 3261177)
Distributator -> Distributor.

Indeed, 'ta' is cloaked.

Blue_Esper 2 Jan 2018 11:47

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk (Post 3261177)
OK, I ran the numbers.

First, two easy ones:

Distributator -> Distributor
Pedlar -> Peddler

i'll concede on the first one
Pedlar is correct spelling

Shhhhhhh 2 Jan 2018 12:41

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
So shipstats are final now then?

Makhil 2 Jan 2018 13:09

Re: R75 Shipstats
 
It would be nice to have the signal for final stats. People want to set up their planet, the idea of having to reset if there is a significant change in stats is annoying, with all the quests involved.


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