Round 23 Ship Stats
Hi all, as you may or may not be aware I've been developing a set of statistics for next round with the help of Keizari (I'm sure he will give feedback at some point) and toot. I basically feel the stats are nearly at the finished point, and I basically want some feedback on them. The feedback I want is two fold, firstly what race you would play and how you would play it, and then also any changes you would make and why you would make them.
The stats are available here on an excel spreadsheet for download, most of the emp eff's are on the next sheet, however a couple are missing where the class of the ship was changed recently and I didn’t alter their class for emp eff. Suggested Ship Stats Ill just simply now outline the principles of the ship stats. Basically every race shouldn't be able to roid itself, with the one exception to this being Zik roiding Zik with FR ships (Zik is a 'special' case, and if you cant understand the reasons for this leave the thread now). The idea of the stats was to make it a difficult choice on which race to pick, and to hopefully make it so that each race had 2 effective pod classes. In the spreadsheet a table for each race shows each single class attack fleet and what races it could roid, an '*' by the race mean's that attack fleet must go against an attack class of that race in order to roid it. We then also have basically the same thing but in reverse, with the table underneath showing what class’s roid the race, and whether these classes are against ships that are off attack classes (easy) or ships that are attack class (flak). There is then an overall table to show the bigger picture of the entire situation. Cheers |
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I didn't mean each race class can roid every race, I meant each class could be used well to roid. As regards the defensive problems, each race has to only build 2 ships that are off attack class ships which should help a great deal (etd 3, but they combine FR ships against EMP, so it's really 1). The emphasis again though is placed upon planets needing to cross defend each other, meaning those that use fleet more efficiently will be the ones that have success. |
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Phoenix -> fi class ship
Drake -> bs targetting Pegasus and banshee now fire same eta. Black widow -> co class ship, now fires normal. Bomber now fires before nightmare. Merchant -> fi class ship Tycoon -> cr targetting, fires after investors. Syren, ghost and ranger removed from stats. (Highlighting what changed in the a/c d/cs and how would be helpful game!) |
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If a change log for AC's / DC's is needed ill knock it up tonight when I get home. |
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I really really really dont see why banshees and pegs should fire at the same initiative. Its utter ludicrus.
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Try talking to someone playing Terran, and ask them how they felt about Xan FI at the start... |
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A quick perspective. Cath look about right. Zero-loss def versus 3 attack fleets and any cath who roids another cath with co is insane. Two more attack fleets targetted by your own attack fleets. This leaves cr, you can't lose ships defending as it's versus emp, and fi and de. This is reasonable enough.
Terran look stronger (so you probably want to watch their a/cs). Cath co/cr won't find it easy to hit terran, they're very unlikely to hit themselves, mares+wraiths are a possibility, slightly more difficult for zik fr now but that'll probably be the main threat again, etd are a possiblity but it's emp again. Xan will probably fi rush but they'll take a sick amount of damage with emp+kill def. That said fi has some natural advantages which offset this but I'd probably tweak up their emp resistance or their d/cs for the phantom and banshee which fire same init as their respective anti-ships. Their fr looks good versus zik and etd but zik will steal a bit to off-set it and they have two respectable def ships with 2 ticks to get there in the harpy and the bomber. Zik are always strong these days because their a/c d/cs are so high. You can feed off terrans with your fr or de's a possible versus cath or etd. However you're probably not going to be able to do both which could leave some defensive holes in your fleet. That said your fleet teams up really nicely with whatever you steal. Some might say that's going to over emphasise the role of luck in playing zik but to be honest it's far more about activity and getting your fleet out there often enough. I think etd might be slightly weak. Their brokers don't look that strong versus terran and zik de. and that's a lot of anti-bs in the de class plus flak flying around. Their co fleet is weaker than the cath one overall, the mare firing first is much worse than just emping when you're attacking. They'll feed off xans at a sick rate with their bs. Their defensive options aren't bad, flakked with the fr, an anti-bs that nothing fires first against, and anti everything else in their attack fleets. I'd try to give them a slightly better offensive edge. With the large number of ships which fire on the same eta, peg banshee, merchant vendor, widow widow, drake wyvern you're going to see a lot of people willing to play chicken with much bigger planets for the xp. Accordingly, while allowing this to remain a valid option, I'd also bump up salvage a bit for everyone. I think these are decent stats, every attack fleet does look capable so you're going to see lot of variation and different options next round I think. My concern, similar to game, is with etd and how capable they'll be of gathering roids. |
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Erm and by weakening the xan who is allready getting raped by both CR and BS is the solution to fix the terran problem? Yeah, great idea. |
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FR is a very efficient attack fleet, and thus by nature should go along way to covering any CR incoming. If you ACTUALLY took the time to look at the stats as well, you would see that Xan's only real hole not covered by attack ships is BS, and so if xans are clever they will build alot more of the UPGRADED Spectre to combat this. If you don't have anything to add to a discussion, with actual points and possible solutions just don't post at all. Creating posts to state "issues" in a cryptic way which just simply demonstrates the fact you haven't really looked at the stats just further demonstrates the useless way in which you are posting. |
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Could only be uploaded as .xls?
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pps. I always give feedback, but what I originally stated still remains at large - I'm not too fond of the original design architechture, so don't expect me to lighten up about it and participate too actively as the other thing's too attractive for that at the moment. |
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from the cath point of view these stats look good
Spiders are still the weakest anti de ship, now there emp power is even weaker than the broker so building spiders is useless unless you got alot of banshees dedicated to you But every race needs one or two weak spots, so i think it's ok that Cath are simply farmed by De The BW as co that targets co so the BW takes over the role of the phoenix and it's an attack ships maybe the cath Co fleet is even a little bit to strong now but i can live with that :p Scarabs as our only Fr will be only useful if you've chimeras, shadows or dealers to to team up with so many cath won't build many of these Never change a winning team is the slogan of the Cr fleet, neither the cath cr nor the cr targeting ships were changed. Cath Cr wasn't overpowered nor to weak so everything is fine here. With the loss of the ranger and the Tycoon targeting Cr now, the scorpion is the single best anti BS ship available, there is more or less no real way to stop scorpions. Maybe the scorpion should fire after the investor to give Etd just a little chance against scorpions to counter all those drakes, spectres and pirates. So just set scorpion init from 9 to 10 and maybe the tycoon from 10 to 11. |
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Well these stats sure looks a bit better than the last couple of rounds' stats, Ill have to look at them more closely though before giving much in the way of constructive feedback. Cath sure looks a lot better though
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Oh and i do agree with bedda about the investor\scorpion
edit: seems the investor is now a stealship, that changes some i guess |
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The investor being a steal-ship isn't huge really. Dragons will muller them first so it's not exactly the ranger of previous rounds. You might cap scorps off a cathaar through faking your cr as bs but this is just going to be good play really. |
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The alternative path would be terran. With no overlapping in the attack fleets, an overall build between destroyers and battleships with the fighter spiceup for alliance defences seems like a plausible option. The destroyers will be able to put some attrition to EMP counterparts and there's the option to play chicken with xandathrii (albeit less attractive one). The battleships will trample past eitrades and xandathrii, and wreck havoc amongst less destroyer heavy zikonians too. The real threat would be the thief, with the two EMP fleets potentially causing trouble with teamups. Anticipating easy roids I'd happily rush for destroyers and hog xandathrii defence fleets to block out thieves with. For xandathrii, it's between a rock and a tough place. The bomber is really too weak to be a plausible addition against zikonians - thus rendering fighters less useful if there's any thieves around. You could build a bunch, and strive against either of the two EMPs, but it's better to have some tough target to hit too - and against pegasus you're down by 10%+ by default, so it's not such an attractive target either. Banshees would probably remain a fake/defensive asset, with the frigates forming the major chunk of the fleet, targetting mainly eitrades and zikonian. I'd probably eventually get buttraped - there's a high chance there'll be successful terrans around, and wyverns will just fart at my face, even if brokers were workable with, which they hardly are, with 110%+ efficiency and no real destroyer antibattleship to pair with except for other spectres. I'd take comfort of the fact that I'd be a lousy low-pod target and try chunk my way in for roids until zikonians steal harpies and eitrades gets butt****ed hard. I could also go zikonian, relying on the fact that they did the best job last round, and they're largely unchanged - granted, nightmares may hit you better, or not - but at least the corsair's now stronger. With the attractive option for cathaars to pull corvette heavy and abandon cruisers at large, I'd be even happier enough with my marauders probably getting less EMP blasts at them through round. The few things that would spell trouble are eitrades battleships - they're hopefully buttraped and have small fleets - and terran battleships, which I can't do much about. Spectre defences and scorpion defences work better for me though, so I'll hog some of those hopefully, or even steal a few scorps with some clever stunt I'm yet to come up. Of course, there's the chances of ingal farming drakes. I'd probably slit my wrists before going eitrades. On the other hand, I'm glad we don't need to call it wintrades anymore. Voyager is a poor man's beetle, and I don't really know what the vendor is, but at least it scores in the chicken games against the merchant. There's a definate need to resist the temptation to build any dealers, as they're just inferior - if there will be cruiser cathaars around, they're best dealt with by a pack of tycoons coupled with brokers. This saying, terrans will now run over you, the high chances are you'll see quite a few cathaar corvette incomings too, and nightmares will bust your rear too. Glad there's still the ability to piss more on xans. It's like the main food for both your attack fleets, with the corvettes having a distant possibility to attack zikonians, too. No, don't do that - attack them with brokers too. Eitrades and xandathrii seem a little weak. Zikonian remains (very) strong. Cathaar seems about "right" as JBG said. Terrans may be a little strong, or then it's just the weakness of etd and xan. |
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is there a bcalc with the stats and how 'final' are these numbers?
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Again if the emp eff of the Voyagers and Beetles (in-particular) was reduced, would Xan FI be more tempting? Quote:
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Tbh stats look good, and the critism is very constructive. Id play Cath though to be honest. Good work Game :)
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I really don't, in general, like how five races stack up in this paradigm.
My preference is to nerf terran and zik de's emp resistance and then nerf the spider down a comparable amount as well. |
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However Terran and Zik DE are both roiding classes, so nerfing them so ETD's could roid them 'easier', would naturally ensure ETD's cant be roided by DE? |
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Adjust it so the anti-bs for zik and terran get frozen first and make the pods fairly tough versus emp.
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There is 1 main use for scarabs and this is stopping Cath Cr. Either you have alot of them to make a difference aka prevent some chims, shadows or dealers from being frozen, or you're wasting a fleetslot. So as i wanted to say, a cath either builds not a single scarab or alot of them. (so it's similar to spiders but with spiders it's easier to decide to build zero) So i think i will spend the resources from the scarabs, build scorps instead and protect the roids of a xan/etd friend of mine so that this friend can build more shadows/dealers The only situation i can think of where the scarab is clearly the best ship to use is: A Etd is attacking with BS+ investors (due to scorpions) and the defenders want to use marauders to steal the investors. In this situation the scarab is the ideal ship to stop the investors. For any other situation, chims or dealers will do the job as good as scarabs. |
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That's pretty much how cathaar fleets always work in fairness. You need a lot or you may as well not bother that much.
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As a terran player, i love these stats, for the last few rounds all ive ever wanted was to have pegs and banshees fire same init and i think that alone would make terrans more balanced and able to defend themselves, the change of the nix to fi is slightly worse for terrans, but acceptable since id rather get hit by co and take small loses.
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Well Terrans needn't be all that easily be roided by co.. Terrans will have high amounts of Harpies and Phoenix as their main alliance defence fleet, so I dont see the problem here, apart from a few top ranked Cathaars who have an insane amount of CO.
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In your situation, it's equally "ideal" just to kill the investors with chims, shads, or dealers. |
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From the Beta Forums ::
Ship Stats 1. Cath cant have 3 co ships plus pods as it makes them far too strong. This was discussed last round with the xans having 3 fi class ships and it was thrown away and the same argument stands for any race. 2. the investor cant be int 9 as a steal ship as its unfair on the ziks and overpowers the etd again. 3. change the zik stats 4. little more changing overall with the stats as they are dressed up dressed stats of r21 that have been the 'same' for afew rounds now. 5. the merchant e/r is too high for a cloak ship. cloak ships have a lower e/r as they have an advangage already. 6. the baliff needs to have lower costs damage and armour. this doesnt change much but keeps the ratio the same but in the combat engine makes the pods die along with the other etd bs as previously the etd pods died last making crashing advantageous over the other races. (if crashing can ever be a good thing.. less worse should i say) 7. Broker has too many guns 8. last round zik and xa were worst race to play and these stats buff the cath/terran/etd if anything the etd need a bad round since they have been strong for afew rounds. the non stat bonus' are insanly high so the stats need to be weakend to compensate. 9. Why is the shadow int so high?? 10. The e/r of afew ships (ziks and most race's SK's seem wrong) Written by KoKs Mon Aug 13 23:24:09 2007 1) Im with koks mostly, however long ago ships had multiple targets, primary and then a weaker seconday, donno how that would fit but could be a nice expansion. 2) Steal ships shooting before normal....now wai! 3)Zik fr and de attack fleets are still easily owned. Maybe switch it so there is 1 kill and 1 cap ship in each. 4) - 5) I like the high e/r, if needed get rid of the cloaked status, but as a pure def ship nobody masses them and they flak xan nicely. ------------------------------------------ My points > Removal of ranger buffs terr bs which now targets and kills all anti-bs except for drakes, they had a strong round last time, dont make it easier. Same with etd bs, they now target all anti-bs def. Bomber now own both the zik and xan fr att fleets, theye were the weakest races last time dont make it harder. Written by -Benneton- Mon Aug 13 23:37:40 2007 1) Im with koks mostly, however long ago ships had multiple targets, primary and then a weaker seconday, donno how that would fit but could be a nice expansion. 2) Steal ships shooting before normal....now wai! 3)Zik fr and de attack fleets are still easily owned. Maybe switch it so there is 1 kill and 1 cap ship in each. 4) - 5) I like the high e/r, if needed get rid of the cloaked status, but as a pure def ship nobody masses them and they flak xan nicely. ------------------------------------------ My points > Removal of ranger buffs terr bs which now targets and kills all anti-bs except for drakes, they had a strong round last time, dont make it easier. Same with etd bs, they now target all anti-bs def. Bomber now own both the zik and xan fr att fleets, theye were the weakest races last time dont make it harder. Written by -Benneton- Mon Aug 13 23:42:46 2007 id suggest changing or cath cr targets as they are far too superior and the only attack fleet that targets anything that targets them Written by Entropy Tue Aug 14 09:41:15 2007 1. Right 2. Make it Init 21, cause ETD ships should be worse then Ziks cause they are just weak "copies" 3. Zik Stats are fine now, i played some last round, and with the improved Corsairs they will be even stronger 5. Right, Merchant is too high, Voyager is too low 6. Just make them cost as much as a Broker/Tycoon in average and its done Written by Project Tue Aug 14 14:27:23 2007 I think Zik need some stweaking. my suggestions, some stolen from the chan: Cutlass to DE-steal, Cutter to co-steal, Pir to bs-kill and Rogue to bs-kill. Why? Zik are so effin weak against ter-bs. Give pirs a lower init that wyverns and its fairer. or: Switch Buccaneer to fi-kill and thief to fi-steal why? DE-fleets are so darn inefficient. All anti-de shoot before them, and they suicide at stealing. So, making buccs killers would make it easier to use em. Also, it would make both fleets having a killer/stealer. Written by SuMa Tue Aug 14 16:33:01 2007 Also, The whole stealing-formula is bad. First, they get shot by anti-ships, then they suicide when stealing. and they cost like hell So either drop the init, or drop suiciding. Written by SuMa Tue Aug 14 16:33:58 2007 Um, and i say it again, lots of people did well with Zik last rounds, changing the stuff back as it was before will make them even stronger. @Suma 2nd post Yes Ziks are not easy to play. Yes stealships have worst init in game They cost like hell is a stupid argument, all the steal Zik-Stealships have really great stats. => The great stats compensate the bad init, AND THEY STEAL. Noone needs uber-race, so zik is fine as it is, they are vulnerable to lots of attacking fleets until they steal a nice bunch of ships, but then zik is absolutely hard to attack. @Suma 1st post Stealing Thief = Ability to steal without losses -> BAD Cutlass->DE no way cause Cutter->CO see reason above YES Zik are bad against ter-bs, but why shouldnt it be that way? Get shot first and then steal through hard armor is never fun. The Rogues are btw one of the best ships ingame, you dont want it to be changed Smile Bucc to FI-Kill makes no difference, the init should stay the same, and as there really should be no zeroloss fi-stealer, bucc to fi-kill is out of discussion de-fleets are a bit weak, but the banshee-remake should change that a bit Smile Written by Project Tue Aug 14 17:40:21 2007 |
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It's fairly difficult to read that but out of the first load of points some of them are just laughable. How were zik and xan last round's worst races? They made up 63% of the t100 planets and 53% of the t500. As an overall % they made up about 40% of the total planets in the game. Who on earth posted that list?
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I've seen it in r21 and r22 that Cath Cr fleets which are attacking Xan are often "designed" for Xan. I can also imagine a Cath Cr fleet flying towards a Ter and where i don't launch my scorpions but my scarabs as i don't want to get some Dragons unfrozen. Well just give me an example where an equal number of scarabs AND an equal number of fleetslots, has a noticeable advantage over chims, dealers or shadows. Quote:
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One would think it a good idea to keep discussion about a single subject in 1 thread.
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100 roaches fire at 300 shadows. A shadow has 66 E/R so a .34 chance of getting stunned, and 100 roaches have total 1900 stun blasts. So that's enough to stun (1900 * .34 =) 646 shadows. No shadows get to fire. A defence fleet of 200 scarabs arrives. A scarab carries 3 stun guns, and a roach has E/R 87 so .13 chance of getting stunned. This means the scarabs with a total of 600 guns stun (600 * .13 =) 78 roaches. This leaves 22 roaches left to blast. Of these roaches, (300 / 500 =) .6 meaning 60% fire at shadows. This means, the shadows will take blasts from (22 * .6 =) 13.2 meaning 13 roaches. 13 roaches have 247 guns, hence stun (247 * .34 =) 83.98 rounded for 84 shadows. The rest of the shots are spread to scarabs, which have already fired so it makes no difference. Now, this leaves with 216 shadows blasting their guns at roaches, killing (total damage 6048, with roach armor 135) 44.8 thus 45 roaches. The alternative defence fleet could compose of equal value worth shadows. A scarab is worth (240 + 285 + 240 =) 765 resources. A shadow is worth (200 * 3 =) 600 resources. Thus, for the resources invested in 200 scarabs, you could buy ([765 / 600] * 200 =) 255 shadows. This adds the total shadows in defence up to 555. The roaches are able to stun 646 shadows, so no shadows get to fire. In order for 216 shadows to get to shoot with shadow defences, you'd need 862 shadows in total, which'd require again 562 shadows for defences. This means quite a bit more resources (to be exact, 562 shadows is worth 337,200, while 200 scarabs is 153,000 - so more than twice). I am aware the combat engine will toss the randoms around a bit with such low numbers. Feel free to add zeroes after, so the aggregate comes up with the average resources with a very low confidence interval. Alternatively, you could show how an amount of scarabs will stun all roaches. Now comes down to the claim that because of pod resistances some may survive. You can play with the maths indefinately, and realize, that if you use equally valuable fleets, the scarabs are always superior. This especially applies to team-up defences with a kill fleet. Now you'll expect me to prove this. 90 roaches and 10 hornets. 1/10 scarabs get to shoot at hornets. A hornet has E/R 90, so a .10 chance to get stunned. 100 shots are needed to stun all. Thus, 34 scarabs. Because of the flak, 34 is actually just one tenth of the scarabs actually needed. Hence, you need 34*10 = 340 scarabs to stun the whole fleet (again, about number crunching, you can add this to 90k/10k cruisers and 340k scarabs to come up with low confidence intervals for the randomization). 340 scarabs is worth 260,100. For 260,100 you can afford (260,100 / 600) 433.5 = 434 shadows. 90 roaches with 19 guns each stun ([19 * 90] * .34 =) 581 shadows. Not a single shadow gets to fire. For 260,100 you can afford (260,100 / [900+750+750] =) 108.375 rounded up for 109 chimera. With the given total of 1710 guns, and chimera E/R 93, thus a 0.07 chance to get stunned, the roaches stun (1710 * 0.07 =) 119.7 rounded for 120 chimera. Not a single chimera gets to fire. Was there anything else you wanted to ask? Or can we agree that the scarab in fact has a very good place in the fleet design, and definately finds it's "spot" tactically in team up defences and alone defending the home cathaar, and get on with the conversation? |
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My opinion on the races and ships
Terrans look a lot stronger. Possibly the best race. The Harpy has been upgraded and has received a flak ship to help it against its worst enemy: the Thief. The change of class for the Phoenix has removed its use as an untargetted defence ship, but the Harpy/Phoenix combination will be strong enouhg to keep out Co attackers, or at least make it very easy to defend. The Chimera has changed only a small bit. The upgraded emp resistance is nice; might even make some Terrans build them and focus on De only for their attack. The change to the Drake weakens the defence against Zik De, but most Terrans build enough Wyvern any way. The use as anti-Bs however is quite usefull against Etd that have capped some Wyvern (although that now will now occur less). The changes to the Pegasus do not affect its offensive capabilities. And will help to keep Xan fighters away more than ever. Wyvern and Dragon had their Emp resistance downgraded. The pods are unchanged. Etd have lost the ranger: this is good news for Terran Bs fleets. Cathaar: nice offensively, but even weaker than ever defensively. The Spider sucked and the improved emp resistance of the Pegasus will only make it worse. The ‘minor’ change to Pegasus emp resistance (1/7th) will offset the changes to its damage as far as the Spider is concerned. Making three corvettes is a nice improvement, but alliances will not benefit: those Black Widows will be out roiding. The dwongrade of the Beetle is a serious loss. I don’t think Co fleets will be having more success now. Fighter defence is easy with the new Phoenix and Co defence is also possible with the Black Widow. Weird to see Cathaar have a fleet that could end up scaring it’s target for once. Attacking fighter heavy Xan is now better possible with those corvettes, but I don’t think we’ll see many of those Xan as their fighters have been made quite useless. The Nightmare on the other hand has become quite a nightmare. The Scarab is unchanged. Cath Cr however had their Emp resistance improved, making them better against other Cathaar (bad for Cathaar if they start attacking themselves). Xan. Was moderately strong. Is now weak. The Banshee is now 12% more expensive. And it sees the initiative of its (former) main opponent improved. Yes, it is somewhat offset by the weakening of the Emp of Voyagers and Beetles, but against Terran you will just die. Cathaar and Etd were not the first choice of target, but if you have xan fighters, you will now have no other choice. Well, the better choice is to defend against a Terran, collect the salvage and build a Fr fleet. Bombers have been severely downgraded, but instead have had their initiative improved. This helps to make Xan able to defend against its own Fr, but Xan Fr now have 2 alliance defence fleets to worry about. The Wraith has been improved (no way a Xan should be able to hit anyting). The Shadow had a minor improvement to its Emp resistance. Nightmares received a major armor and an Emp resistance improvement at the cost of a minor damage downgrade. The Ghost will be severely missed as it was a major asset for xan with Fr fleets that also helped flak the Spectre. This Spectre received a minor upgrade, but without flak it’s even more useless than before. The improvements don’t make up for the downgrade of the fighter attack fleet. Not even close. Zik was a powerfull race and with the weakening of Etd, Zik will be the first choice for many experienced players. There are some minor upgrades. The improvements to the emp resistance of the Cutter, Marauder and Privateer, will make zik stronger than ever. Build cutlass for alliance defence to get you some Black Widows (and any anti-Fr you steal will also come in handy as this is your main weakness). The Fr fleet has been severely weakened as an attack fleet by changing the Phoenix class. Attacking Cathaar is now quite feasible however as is hitting other Zikonians. The Cutter will now be your main Frigate as it is needed to kill all defending Corsairs and is cheaper (better flak) than the Thief. Zik De have hardly changed. The problem with this fleet is that where in the past Terrans were quite eager to team up, they no longer need you. The improvement to the Broker will be an obstacle to make this fleet work there. Only Cathaar seem possible. The Rogue is still a zero-loss ingal defence ship and a great way to get some of those nice Terran De. The Marauder has been upgraded for its role against Cathaar. My main attack fleet would be Zik Fr. For alliance defence I would build some Cutlass, Pirates and Marauders. Ingal you could use your Rogues. Building a good attack fleet will not be easy. I think with some luck you build up a Bs fleet. Etd suffers the loss of its best ship. The weakening of the Voyager is compensated by the weakening of Xan fighters, so incomming Xan fighters will be quite possible to defend. Your corvette fleet is not made for attacking however. Zikonians are a possible target (untill they steal Black Widows), but Terrans appear much too strong. The change to the Merchant is effectively an improvement as it makes attacks by corvettes less attractive because you now have flak. Note how the Merchant now has better armor and does more damage. The Ranger will certainly be missed. The Dealer had a major improvement in its Emp resistance. Combine that with the use of Merchants as flak and who needs to steal Dragons? Investors are now a combination of the old Ranger and Investor. Note that the Investor steals before the Tycoon fires. This new Tycoon is not very usefull. You can send it along to scare off tiny defenders, but that’s it. The Broker has been improved significantly. Conclusion: Race Attack Defence Total Ter 8 8 8 Cath 8 2 5 Xan 7 6 6.5 Zik 5 8 6.5 Etd 7 7 7 |
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I never said, well i never wanted to say that the scarab is useless. But as there aren't any teamup (within a cath fleet) anymore a cath will need even more of them to make them useful than it's used to be (i liked my r22 BW as defence against cath cr and i definatly don't want to say that making the BW a co kill ship is bad for cath, it's an huge upgrade) for your example with the shadows, your're right, but you took the easy one as shadows have the lowest emp res and you the defending xan just have shadows but not a single nightmare or vampyre? additional the cath just attacked only with roaches? no tarantulas? no hornets? so why didn't the defenders just organized some dragons,marauders or tycoons? those 300 fr xan must have a much bigger cath friend, due to the fact that this cath has def ships from one of 3 def ships worth about 70% of one of 2 attack fleets of the xan let's say our defending xan has 15k nightmares and 15k shadows (big numbers so that rounding isn't an issue) and the attacker sends 4,5k roaches, 4,5k tarantulas and 1k hornets so we can add 10k scarabs or 3187 chims (which are very much and thus even unlikely compaired to the 10k cath cr and the 30k xan fr) scarab battle: 10k scarabs (30k guns) shoot with 13,5k guns at roaches with 13,5k guns at tarantulas and with 3k guns at the hornets 1755 roaches 1755 tarantulas (well they have the same empres) and 300 hornets are frozen now the missing 2745 roaches start freezing, noone cares about the scarabs or nightmares so only those 37,5% roaches (1029 roaches) are important 6647 shadows are frozen, the missing 8353 will have fun they kill 809 tarantulas, 779 roaches and 137 hornets 563 hornets to steal roids chimera battle 33187 defending fr 432 roaches fire at the chims freezing 574 chims 2033 roaches fire at the shadows freezing 13133 shadows now 2613 chims kill 859 tarantulas, 827 roaches and 146 hornets 3641 taras, 3673 roaches and 854 hornets so 8168 cr still alive 1837 shadows kill 178 taras, 171 roaches and 30 hornets so 1037 taras, 998 roaches and 176 hornets are killed 824 hornets can steal roids in case the defending xan has less than 2252 roids the chims are better if the defender has more than that those 2252 roids it all depends on the actual roid count and the bravery factor and now please tell me which of our exaples is more likely to happen? to repeat myself: I never wanted to say that scarabs are useless, but they aren't a "omg they are the best defense ship against class x, I must built them" "omg they are the best defense ship against class x, I must built them" ships are BWs against etd co, harpies against xan fr and scorpions against ter and etd BS There are some other zero loss defense ships around but these can't make the eta for alliance def Cath got 2 of those ships which are useable against 3 attack fleets instead of 1 ship vs 1 attack fleet (r22 scorpion vs etd bs, the scorpion was useable against ter bs too but all those etd strictly banned the use of scorpions vs ter Bs as the scorpions might kill some of "their" precious ter bs) So Cath will concentrate ever more on scorpions (and also on BWs) for def than last round. To the whole thing i wanted to say about scarabs: they are useful anti Cr ships but we will see even less cath players with scarabs than last round and to get back to the topic i will write up my second thought about Cath overall: as I've stated before, cath co might be to powerful so maybe their power should be reduced The BW shouldn't be the one which will be decreased the most as we might loose a good anti co ship here which might increase the power of co attack fleets(also the cath co attack fleet) again the viper could have their emp efficientcy and armour per cost reduced (as the viper only has 2 guns, reducing the guns would be to much so we would need to increase the resource costs) the emp efficientcy will lead to less frozen ingal nightmares and cutters and the reduced armour will lead to bigger looses for the attacking cath when there are BWs, nightmares or cutters defending The reduced emp efficientcy won't automaticaly lead to defenseless cath vs Fr attacks as there are still roaches similar changes could be done to the beetle but here we have to be careful as the beetles are the only anti fi ship cath has and due to the fact that banshees doesn't shoot before pegs anymore, cath and etd will become the primary target for xan fi so maybe only the armour should be considered for a change by the way we could also reduce the armor of the mosquito the BW will still be powerful and will have alot of armor per resource but the other cath co would die like flies. Due to the fact that the BW is a "big" ship anyway it won't be targeted that much by it's opponents so it might even be possible to defend with BWs against cath co attacks I would love to see some BW "shootouts" With the loss of the ranger the scorpion clearly becomes anti BS ship #1 Ter Bs will kill all Bs targeting ships before they shoot except tarantulas and scorpions so this is a good attack fleet Etd Bs will freeze the De and shoot after the Bs freezing/stealing cr Etd got the weaker Bs fleet so we might change them a little bit Tycoon shooting at investors after the investors had stolen some BS and suecided themselves completly (the damage of the investor is greather than the armor of broker and baliff and only slightly weaker than the armor of the tycoon) So Tycoon won't even shoot at investors as there won't be any investors left (if the defenders sent to much investors it's their own fault) I suggest that tycoons shoot before investors As Etd will have a hard time to freeze all those drakes, spectres and pirates anyway we might give them an advantage against the scorpions Let the investors (in case the etd send them with the BS) steal the scorpions before the scorpions shoot my suggestion: scorpions init 11 (so even spectres can take out scorpions) investors init 10 tycoon init 9 Etd can now attack etd and have a small chance against scorpions Other than that i think the Cath are "fine" edited due to calc error |
Re: Round 23 Ship Stats
Well I'm a bit flattered that game has decided to use my stats as a base and disappointed at the same time because he didn't deal with either of the two basic flaws in my stats. There are still two cath attack ships that target FR with EMP, and the zik FR fleet can't steal. Really the stats needed to be totally rewritten, but oh well. Most of the things I see that are wrong with game's attempt have to do with my different philosophy about how to build stats, so I'll just keep my comments to myself. I have to at least say however that it does confuse me that after my mistake with the thief in r21 no one has really complained about game doing the same thing with the investor (which is pretty much useless) for r23.
P.S. To answer the original question in the thread I looked at cath and said wow, for the first time since r5 I may actually consider playing cath. Their offensive firepower is unstoppable (they target everything that targets them that can make out of gal eta), and by building just attack fleets and BS caths will be able to cover everything but DE/CR effectively, talk about a great combo. |
Re: Round 23 Ship Stats
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Unfortnately, i have to drop into uni all of today, so i dont really have the time to look at the stats untill tomorrow. However, i've had a quick read of the posts above, and i am sad to see that it seems my beloved Xan has taken a broadside :( - i'll obviously reserve judgement on that untill i've looked well at the stats. Its good to see that Terran, however, are quite stronger than in the past - i think its important that the "default race" actually has some ability to work effectively as it improves the standards of the whole universe, and thus more "fun". So, i'll think for a while and check back in :). Famous last words :p. |
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats
By the way, this is also a very good route to point out one very large problem with the stats. It comes down with the fact that because a phoenix costs six times as much as a phantom, and has largely higher EMP resistance, you'll come down situations where you will be stunning all the phantoms, and you could be stunning double the phantoms more, while there will still be pissloads of phoenixes firing (the cutlass effect from round 19).
Oh, cancer. That's so bum. Definately no cath. |
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Phoenix. Combined with pretty much any non-terran fighter. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I just can't stop laughing, I'm so sorry. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Quote:
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Look, it's Monroe on "stats needed to be totally rewritten" shocker (NO SARCASM). HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'm almost crying. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Dear god. It's so harsh. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I think I'm going to call this a day, I'm definately sticking as far as possible from the stats debate. Monroe's humor is absolutely killing me. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Quote:
Yeah, it sounds small collateral damage. But it can end up with some very annoying situations. That's why I decided to never again play cathaar after round 19. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Monroe thinks the stats should have been completely redone. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Quote:
I thought it was an experiment that didn't work quite as you expected. (I never really heard the explanation to how you expected it to work after I was politely removed from the dev boards). HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Maybe Game is trying to make the experiment work in some different, unpredictable way? Maybe the way you thought your experiment would work? |
Re: Round 23 Ship Stats
Surely 'spare' guns are reallocated to other ships of the same class?
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats
They weren't allocated so in round 19 at least. I seriously doubt it's been changed. I had a serious amount of beetles after the Gôsu kids had a fleetcatch on me, and I was still getting bummed by zikonian fighter fleets because the zikonian fighters were so heavy in compared to xandathrii fighters that there'd be a thousand or three left shooting at me even if I had stunned the cloakboys tenfold.
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Re: Round 23 Ship Stats
Holy shit, you're right. :o
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