Pa api
People have been asking PATeam for some kind of API to PA for quite a while in order to provide hooks for alliance tools. I understand PATeam seems quite reluctant to do this, for whatever reason, seemingly to focus in first party tools.
I'm curious how feasible (easy to implement, time etc) it would be (and willing PATeam would be) to add an API to the main game. What I'm talking about is a way to provide all the information that is normally available to the player while logged in, in a minimal, data-centric way, for example as some kind of JSON, or XML data, or however you want to do it. I could see this being implemented quite easily just as an extra "skin", though I'm not sure how PA's skins work. This would also need to be partnered with a simple system for issuing commands in the game, though really there wouldn't need to be much in the way of change here as this would just be simple HTTP POSTs, like things are at the moment. There is however the possibility to re-engineer some of the underlying systems here however, and make PA more future-proof if PATeam has any plans for a fancy AJAX frontend, which would also benefit from a simple data pushing interface. (Basically I'm talking about being able to submit a page request (fleet command) without receiving a whole page back.) The main issue I see, ignoring time constraints to actually implement this, is security and authentication and server load. It would still be possible to push users of this API through a bot checker (easiest solution is sending my code a URL for a bot checker image, and from there everything would be the same as a browser). I just don't want to have to deal with all the excessive HTML, I just want to be given the minimal data. Regarding server load: well, anyone is able to spam requests to PA with or without an API, so having an API isn't going to make a difference there. People spamming the server can have their IPs blocked just as normal. In short, what I'm asking for is a skin that is essentially a JSON (or XML or something like that) source of data, and a request system that simply acknowledges/confirms my request, but doesn't throw tons of data back at me as if I've loaded a new page. For those intrigued, the reason I'm bringing this up: [22:58] <@ellonweb|a> does anyone here have an iphone? [22:58] <@Benneh> i do [22:59] <@ellonweb|a> i have a module on the iphone this semester, i need to make something [22:59] <@ellonweb|a> tell me what to make [22:59] <@Benneh> er [22:59] <@maggs> planetarion for the iphone [23:00] <@Benneh> yeah :D [23:00] <@ellonweb|a> hah [23:00] <@ellonweb|a> ok |
Re: Pa api
After speaking to Cin, it turns out this is almost impossible given the current state of the code.
For those of you technically inclined, this is because the code is not separated MVC style as one might expect, and therefore the only things different skins can change are the images and CSV: changes to the textual output are not possible, making JSON/XML output impossible (as part of a skin, anyway). Essentially, my idea could not be implemented without a huge amount of code changes or a whole recode. To anyone thinking about making a new game in future (HI SPINNER): keep this in mind during your development process? :) |
Re: Pa api
I still think you should have gone with the toilet guide.
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It would've been nice to see baby steps being taken towards this, such as scans being available in an alternative format (XML, JSON) which is more easily parsed by bots. It could be a small change which has a larger impact than a full API to other parts.
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Re: Pa api
Project for your iphone app:
Make a mobile version of ********! :D |
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Authenticatipn is not a problem AS that is handeled by the script receiving the ajax-call (which comes from your browser and thus has access to cookies for the auth) You might want something without cookies for auth and that could be a problem with security though. Also, with Pa, an api can be made fairly easily if things in the code looks a bit like it did when I left. You could simply copy the contents of the functoon called something like ProcessForms from each "page" and stick them all into a new file called api.pl or something. Then sort out potential name-conflicts for the actions, and replace the output with either statuscodes or JavaScript. Shouldnt be too hard or timeconsuming I think? AS for a new game, I can not confirm anything. |
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So when can we signup for alpha spinner? ;) |
Re: Pa api
Be aware that an API for a browser-game would actually make no sense if you can play the game through it - unless you want to make sure that your user interfaces gets as few traffic as possible, and if you want to open up the ability for bots to play.
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Re: Pa api
An API to play the game through allows other user interfaces, and doesn't limit the game specifically to your designed interface. The benefit of this with regard to what I was trying to do, would be that it would allow an app for a phone to show just as good an interface as the main game (graphics et al) without having to use bandwidth on downloading the images (because they're part of the app), and also not having to download shed loads of HTML and so on.
Assuming you don't **** up authentication, this would have no affect on bots playing or not (unless that's something you want to allow, but that's getting a little off topic). |
Re: Pa api
An alliance/information api(def calls, intel, dumps etc) makes sense, a-game-playing api does not make sense, to me anyway.
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Both are useful. The point is that an alliance/information api would require a significant change in attitude from PATeam. A game playing api would not change anything and more importantly, I thought it might be an easy implementation, though I was wrong on that.
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I agree with Gabriel on this one. While a game-playing API has legitimate uses, I would not be in favour of handing players an easy way to add bots to the game. That sort of thing has a much higher impact on gameplay than information retrieval API ever could.
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Re: Pa api
Bloody hell do you people not read? This API would not make it easier for bots, because the botchecker image would still be there. That said it's hardly a perfect system and I know at least one person that has code that can fairly often accurately decipher the images, but that's getting a little off topic!
Anyways, for posterity's sake, here is what I wrote originally regarding security and bots again: Quote:
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Isnt the whole API thing just a read only affair?
If so then why would bots be a problem? |
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I decided the hassle wasn't worth it, so I went for the api.pl version in stead. Such an api-thing makes it fairly trivial to make a mobile interface as well, as you can check on the hostname and provide different output based on that...So a virtual host of wap.planetarion.com can thus use the same logic but output a more mobile output, ahilw for instance api.planetarion.com produce it's own kind of output. etc... game.planetarion.com could just output what it does today ofc... Anyway, I am not going into the bot-debate here, as that's a whole different can of worms. Maybe the fact that a bot can outplay human players in PA is more a weakness in the game-concept though, I dunno. (-: I mean, if it is about auto-recall, running away with fleets, auto-scanning incs etc, surely someone being the leader of an entire planet could have some peons doing such work for him while he sleeps :) then again, changing the gameplay so much would make it not.quite.planetarion.com I guess.... Best of luck Apocco, even if it looks like you're not going down this path. (-: |
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Re: Pa api
Your right i didnt read it as hard as i should.
When people talk about api, I think of eve-onlines version which just is read only and you cannot control the game unless your using the client (which the api isnt in control). I can see api would work when all its doing is pulling data (with or without the bot checker). So you could just have a bot checking 24/7 if the account has hostile, but it cant do anything other than relay this info to the alliance chan bot or a website. So basically your asking that the game can be controlled through API and the GUI (for whatever the device) controls the API? |
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I don't think bots ever were a big problem in Planetarion, really. |
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Anyone who remembers before the introduction of the bot checker, will remember the name Killmark. This guy managed to get hold of I believe over 100 accounts (even though the fleets were small) and was able to use them all in any way he wanted. A small part of the alliance Reborn (RB in pre pax era), also used bots, which both fury and legion were allied to, but then killed off because of this. Even I used a planet checker in pre-PAX, which checked the planet for hostiles every few minutes. |
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Now, post-PAX, when you eliminated all these bots with the messy confirmation picture, the cheating continued. Do you think this retard siren of yours should be more concerned about the fact that cheating with or without elaborate tools - and I'd like to emphasize the word "with" - has continued in a large extent regardless of your confirmation windows. The fact that you do not know the actual extent of this is merely a testament to your ignorance, rather than your widespread knowledge of Killmark or Taluskylä in ancient rounds that consist of what, five rounds out of thirtyfive? I mean, c'mon. The lesson learned is that if you actually want to cheat and not get caught of it, things like the confirmation window are minor inconveniences. The fact that you consider two or three incidents of big bot armies a large scale issue infesting this game - - considering they were fairly isolate incidents and happened years ago, and pale in comparison to what continued to go on since, is juts naive. |
Re: Pa api
If bots were never a problem then why do we have a bot checker? Bots also now are sophisticated enough to understand the bot checker picture.
I also never said that botting was bigger than any other cheating type, but its a smaller percentage of people with a few bots (controlling lots of accounts) can cause the most harm. The API has more to do with bots, than people using VNC. Although the API isnt really needed as you can control HTML anyway. My post was regarding your own naivety in regards to bots not being a problem at all in PA (Pre or post pax). So imagine an API bot which used vnc and also had a image recognition built in. I just feel like producing one just to hear the "retard" siren. |
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edit. excuse me, my lunch date was screaming. Now, the point is, by making these certain rules such as accessing multiple planets "against the rules" you're essentially restricting a chunk of people, the majority of the more casual playerbase, from having much of a chance against those who regardless of the rules (yeah, circumstancial and anecdotal evidence is anecdotal, but most people who have a clue will also have a hint of the extent of actual cheating in this game) can do things they want to do. The argument is, bots playing planets have generally been very, very easy to detect and suspend in compared to what the actual problem of the cheating in the game is - the more elaborate going around the rules done extensively is something you can easily and most do get away with. Quote:
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